OMG it's a tier list

[Narga_Rocks]

Did he even rise at all after getting the speed transfer? I'm pretty sure he was already there.

He went above Oscar. I know because I argued him there.

I've got to agree with WoMC here. The massive raep Boyd can become with a Wing simply can't be overlooked (I know you saw it, Narga).

Still, Neph at least doubles for a while where Boyd isn't. Even with the transfer, Boyd needs 4 or 5 levels just to hit 22 AS without an early wing.

I haven't checked the numbers, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Nephenee doing about the same or just a little more damage in two hits than Boyd does in one. Boyd (T) > Neph and then even higher needs serious consideration.

Also, post #4,000. (For the topic, my own postcount is way higher)

Forged Hand Axe Boyd is too good for middle of Upper Mid. Yes.

I still don't see high unless we sort out the whole: "Which two units get speedwings in 3-2" thing.

His epicness is probably enough for the 3-9 wing if he doesn't get one of the 1-E/2-3 wings. Which is > Neph and probably > BK. > Elincia is a maybe. Without the early wing he has a slow enough start in part 3 even with transfers that I don't mind her 2-P and 2-E outweighing that, and 3-11 and beyond isn't too much more availability than her part 4 availability, and she still has staves and will have great offence, too, before long.

So Boyd only goes above her with an early wing.

[Florete]

I still don't see high unless we sort out the whole: "Which two units get speedwings in 3-2" thing.

At this point the only thing really keeping him worse than Titania at all is that he has (slightly) more competition for a Wing on his team than she does. With the same competition I'd argue him > her, so since he's the only extra competition I don't see a tier gap at all.

Personally, I think Boyd (T) w/ a Speedwing is probably > Haar w/one anyway. I think this is another Doritos situation, this one in Boyd's favor.

I'll do a stat comparison with some High tier character later, probably Gatrie or Titania.

[Narga_Rocks]

I still don't see high unless we sort out the whole: "Which two units get speedwings in 3-2" thing.

At this point the only thing really keeping him worse than Titania at all is that he has (slightly) more competition for a Wing on his team than she does. With the same competition I'd argue him > her, so since he's the only extra competition I don't see a tier gap at all.

Personally, I think Boyd (T) w/ a Speedwing is probably > Haar w/one anyway. I think this is another Doritos situation, this one in Boyd's favor.

I'll do a stat comparison with some High tier character later, probably Gatrie or Titania.

Just as long as we don't forget durability and flight. Boyd is also heavier than Mia, so he can't be shoved by my Grandmother.

Personally, if Haar doubles a little bit less before the 3-6(3-8) crown, I'm okay with it because of flight. Also he gets an extra chapter of use in which only Elincia ORKOs, thus making the improvement in that chapter vastly more significant.

Still, level 8 with 22 speed and a 45% growth is obviously significantly faster than level 11 with 22 speed and a 30% growth. And 24 str base with 65% growth and level 8 and fire vs. 23 str base with 70% growth and level 11 and wind is probably slightly in Boyd's favour.

I suppose since he is so even with them, the whole "what if Titania/Haar isn't fielded" thing comes into play and he might be high tier that way.

Also, after some levels his durability isn't any worse than Titania's anyway, and she somehow got to near the top of high tier before people assumed her with a wing. The difference is basically 2 move and canto. Those things are nice, sure, but they aren't a tier gap when he soon does better against generals than she does.

[Progenitus]

So let me address a double standard that the mia fanboys/aran haters have committed.

In the FE9 tier, it is assumed that Mia gets BEXP in chapter 8. This is because, apparently, the rest of the team doesn't improve significantly after a certain amount of BEXP. Pumping Mia with the BEXP will let her reach a new "plateau". Ignoring how retarded that argument is, let's just assume that the mia fanboys/aran haters are true.

So let's ask this; why doesn't Aran get BEXP or anything for 1-4? Let's go down the checklist.

1) The rest of the team doesn't need it.

- Sothe obv doesn't need it

- If Nolan supports Leo he's probably avoiding the 2HKO from tigers, and does fine vs cats. So he probably won't need anything.

- Edward gets 2HKO'd liek forever (cats don't stop 2HKOing until 9/0 where he's left with lul 0.75 HP, and cat + tiger or 2 tigers 2HKO easily), so he doesn't really improve. I guess he could gain spd to double, but since Aran doing more damage than Edward if the latter didn't double was apparently pointless, it would be a double standard to say that Edward winning damage would matter. Plus it gives Edward more chances to accidentally crit, which is apparently why Zihark is so awful in 3-6 and 3-13 because of random crits, so I'm not letting this double standard slip by.

- Micaiah ORKOs with a wrath crit and will always get ORKO'd even at full HP, so BEXP on her is pointless.

- Leo doesn't double anything and his att and def and his stats in general suck, so BEXP on him is pointless.

- Ilyana gets 2RKO'd forever so BEXP is pointless on her.

- lollaura

- lolmeg

2) Aran reaches a new "plateau"

Aran with the BEXP levels up even faster than before. As if leveling up on turn 4 or something wasn't fast enough, now he can level up after like the first kill. Aran at 9/0 has the durability to take a cat + tiger, 2 cats easily, somewhat borderline on taking 24 att + 26 att tiger. This means he can attack something on player phase AND enemy phase before needing healing, or maybe counter 2 enemies on enemy phase.

And before anyone QQs about crits, he's pretty much invulnerable to cats now (at 9/0, he has a good chance of not getting doubled, and also reducing their crit on him, AND on average has the HP/def to survive a crit from cats), and tigers only have liek 42% chance of still having crit on him.

Why is taking 2 attacks much better than only taking 1? Does anyone even realize why Nolan's our best tank in 1-4 (fuck Sothe)? It's not just because he has the most att. It's because he can actually take more than one hit. NOlan's a badass because he doesn't have to spam vulneraries every single turn. He can attack more often, which is more damage dealt, which means enemies die faster, which means we clear the map faster.

Yet when it comes to Aran we QQ about his 1% chance of getting crit killed (and that was at 8/0, I can only imagine at 9/0 it's even lower). There's a much greater chance of Ilyana and wrath Micaiah not critting to kill their target laguz because Edward fails at attacking and tanking (he can't have too much att, because otherwise he could possibly crit-kill the laguz and let another one attack and kill him off) than Aran getting critted. We're talking like... ILyana having like 15% chance of critting and wrath Micaiah having like 55% chance, which comes out to about 38.25% failure rate. Even if we gave Ilyana a max crit forge (which gets freaking expensive because we'd also like to pump up mt and hit), that only goes up to ~30% crit chance. There's still ~31.5% chance of failure.

Sure, if Ilyana or Micaiah fail to crit, the result is that you just unequip Edward so he doesn't kill the laguz accidentally, and then finish it off next turn. But if you attack 6 laguz in the chapter, you're on average only ORKOing 4 of those laguz, and you're taking extra turns for the other 2. This average is on every single playthrough.

Aran? If Aran reaches 9/0 (happens after liek, 1 kill or something retardedly fast if we give him the BEXP), his chances of dying from a crit are retardedly low. I can't be bothered to do the math of his chances of dying from a cat crits, but note that his chances of dying to a cat crit at 7/0 was ~4%, and after he leveled up once it dropped to ~1.39% (calculations here http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=16460&view=findpost&p=555510), which is liek a 66% decrease. I'm assuming that reaching level 9 will see a similar decrease, so we're talking liek ~0.46% chance to die. The tigers is easier; since they only have ~42% chance of having 1 crit on him, that's 0.42% chance of death.

Basically, after getting attacked over 200 times, Aran will on average die prematurely once. if he's attacked by 6 laguz per playthrough, then on average once every ~33 playthroughs he's going to randomly explode. On average once every ~33 playthroughs we have to restart and lose several turns (could be anywhere from like 1-8 depending on when he gets critted).

Apparently losing ~2 turns on average every playthrough is better than losing 1-8 turns once every ~33 playthroughs.

Also, apparently one of the arguments for Edward being the better tank is that, if he gets RNG screwed, or doesn't have the required HP/def/etc. to survive the 26 att tigers (since they OHKO if he's not high enough), you can throw him the shield or use another tank. Except...

- you can not only give the shield to Aran as well, but Nolan greatly appreciates the shield.

- If Edward is not tanking, then who exactly is going to take his place? Meg sucks, Leo can't tank tigers ever, lol @ laura or micaiah tanking, Ilyana gets OHKO'd by the 26 att tigers PLUS has an even worse crit problem than Aran (they have the same base, but at least Aran after gaining a level or two won't get OHKO'd by cat crits), Nolan and Sothe are already busy.

BTW, I'm going to lol if someone suggested Edward supports. Leo is put to better use on Nolan, Nolan is not going to be anywhere near Edward for 1-4, ditto for Sothe, Micaiah doesn't want to break her support with Sothe, and since Aran was denied a Laura support due to not enough turns in 1-3, this implies that Edward isn't supporting Ilyana or Aran either, since there's not enough time. This leaves Laura; however, this means that Edward has Micaiah, Ilyana, AND Laura all at a chokepoint with him, leaving Nolan with only lolleo. And not only that, we can't even fit 3 people in Edward's chokepoint, unless Laura is just chilling 3 spots away from edward, which is a colossal waste of Laura's healing when she could go to Nolan and heal him so Nolan's not forced to spam vulneraries every single turn. Let's not forget taht Laura doesn't really have a lot of time to build a support either; 1-2 consists of Laura making a beeline for the seize square while Edawrd goes to liek the bottom left corner so he can kill the one or two joke enemies in the corner with Leo so they can get the chest, and then 1-3. Plus Laura ain't healing Edward in 1-2 or 1-3, since that implies Edward is tanking and taking damage, when he's liek the worst guy to do the job.

im also going to lol @ people who think Aran can't get a level in 1-3. Here are the shitty reasons people give and why they're shitty.

- "deh rite side is ezier dur hur hur"

Is it now? I found the right side to be harder, and aside from that, I still managed to beat 1-3 in 10 turns AND got every single person to escape (including NPCs) when I went down the right side. Since I'm apparently terrible at this game, this means going down the left side, even IF it was harder, is only negligibly harder. Either that or I'm suddenly awesome at this game despite all the insults thrown at me about my skills at FE.

- "aran has bud offenze lolz, he cunt even 2hko myrmz"

It's a good thing offense is the only thing that matters when it comes to killing and hitting. I mean, we never need anyone to soak up hits, right? We can solo the map with Micaiah np because of her offense.

o w8...

also, he doesn't even have the worst offense on the team (Leo is worse), and certainly not by enough to matter when it comes to his teammates. Edward has like 1 more att with steel sword, or I guess he can use iron for a real borderline chance to double anything. Ilyana only does slightly more damage with Thunder (loses att by 2, def/res gap is like 4-5) and wins vs armors. Nolan has loads more att, but his hit is terrible, and if he uses steel axe he risks getting doubled by myrms/fast enemies.

And I personally never had any problems getting Aran (and NOlan) a level in 1-3. Then again when it comes to my experiences I get cries of "PE MEANS NOTHING!!!!!111" yet when other people do it, it's the word of god.

EDIT: Also, before you say that "Edward + Ilyana + Micaiah can kill without a crit", there are some problems.

For starters, you only need 20 att to OHKO cats with a crit (~35 HP, 8 def, 4 or 6 res). This means that Edward's forge can't be too strong or else he could OHKO with a crit, and then open himself up to another attack. Now let's say you forge him a weapon so he has 18 att so he won't OHKO with a crit (I would say 19, but in the event he levels up and procs a str, he's in trouble because now he reached 20. 18 is a buffer). In the event he doesn't crit....

35 - (18 - 8) = 25.

Micaiah attacks with Thani. Something like 13 or 15 damage. The cat has 12 or 10 HP.

If the cat has 6 res, then Ilyana will actually need a pretty strong forge to OHKO. Either that or you're still relying on crits to kill.

The big problem are tigers. Especially the 10 AS ones, since he doubles those pretty easily, which means he only needs liek 17 att to kill with double crits (~40 HP, 10 def, 2 res. And liek 2 crit eva). Since Edward has liek 12 crit, this means he has 1% chance to land double crits, about the same as an 8/0 Aran's chance to die from a cat/tiger crit, so I wouldn't be bitching about this if I were you. It's especially bad if he has 20 att, since he now only requires a single crit, which jumps up to ~19% chance to get a crit.

The 12 AS tigers are still a bit of a problem, because a 9/0 Edward has liek a 34% chance of having 16+ spd (if he's at a lower level he's going to have actual issues surviving 26 att tigers, since all 12 AS tigers have 26 att, so pick your poison).

Edited November 15, 2009 by 8========================D

[Narga_Rocks]

So let me address a double standard that the mia fanboys/aran haters have committed.

In the FE9 tier, it is assumed that Mia gets BEXP in chapter 8. This is because, apparently, the rest of the team doesn't improve significantly after a certain amount of BEXP. Pumping Mia with the BEXP will let her reach a new "plateau". Ignoring how retarded that argument is, let's just assume that the mia fanboys/aran haters are true.

You have 500 max at this point. That gets Aran not a single level. At his level 7 base it takes 500 just to get him ~71 exp. So fine, you can probably get him enough exp in 1-3 and give him most of your bexp to get him to 99 exp so he can level on his first attack in 1-4. Or you can give him a str/skl/def bexp level that doesn't even protect him from a cat crit or get him to be 3HKOd by tigers. And you push his chance of getting spd until even later. Either way, you aren't getting him to level 9 regardless. Even with your strategy of giving Aran and Nolan all the kills you can manage at the exclusion of others strategy in 1-3 to get him a level, you would need to get him up to 8.38 just so that you can give Aran every single drop of bexp you currently have just to get him to level 9.

It is, yet again, only a double standard in your mind. Also it is ridiculous that you still think the argument (in it's true form) is retarded. What is the point of that bexp elsewhere? You still haven't shown how having Mia continue to 4HKO the armors and maybe get some other unit an extra level is actually superior. You never even bothered to try. Just complained about how much bexp she was getting. Tell us where else to put it and how that actually makes the chapter go better. Until you do that, what do we care if you think she gets too much? So, since you have failed to refute how Mia getting the bexp is a superior strategy, that suggests you think it is retarded to distribute resources in a way superior to all others. I suppose we already knew that, though, so this isn't exactly news. (Oh, if you choose to try, do it on the fe9 list, would ya?)

Nor have you bothered to explain how you thought Soren gets from level 1 to level 6 by chapter 7. Just want to point that one out again. Regardless of any backpedalling you did later on, that was the level you first gave him. So there must have been some reason you thought he could pull it off.

Anyway, I don't much care about the rest of your post. I don't see how us changing our minds about his 1-4 performance will change his tier position, nor have you given any suggestions on what to do with this new "information" wrt his current position. If someone else wants to go into more detail on the rest of your post, they can go ahead. For the record, if the player can get enough exp on him such that he only needs a little bit to get to level 7.99, I say go ahead. I'm not sure how much "a little bit" would be, though. You only have 500 bexp to play with, and he gets 1 exp per 7 bexp, so 10 costs 70 bexp. You don't have much, and considering all your complaints about Ed's chance of survival it seems to me he is a good choice. See, he already has the luck requirement. He needs less procs to pull off safety, and considering his chance of having 6 def after 3 levels is pretty good, and after 3 levels he'll almost certainly have 1 hp, another level via bexp would mean that he can have an 85% chance of pulling off another hp (that he should already have without the 4th level, btw). Basically, he's arguably a better choice for those 500 bexp since he doesn't need to pull off lck just to avoid random instablicks from tigers. So there seems to be a decent argument to apply bexp to at least one other character. Oh, and at level 7 for Ed, he has x % chance of being 2HKOd or better by everything on the map. In other words, Aran is unneeded x% of the time so the bexp on him would be a complete and utter waste. I calc'd x once and don't feel like doing it again. x > 50, btw. So over half the time you have a fully capable tank for this map that won't randomly die on you. The other << half the time, you can give Ed some bexp so that he gets hp and is 2HKOd by everything (and he can get it as a bexp level, since that 85% hp growth is by far his highest growth, whereas hp and lck for Aran very much aren't), or you can give it to Aran who is still going to be facing a chance of random death and needs to hit something on the map first if you want to avoid gimping his hp and spd and lck more than they already are. Basically, throwing bexp into the argument makes your case weaker, not stronger.

Even without Ed potentially being a superior choice for the bexp, this is also another example of your bullheaded belief that all "favouritism" is created equal (wrt comparing the bexp on Aran to bexp on Mia). Also your lack of understanding of basic economic principles. Scarcity of resources is a big reason bexp is easier to throw around in fe9 than in fe10. It isn't like giving Mia bexp prevents us from pumping Oscar and Boyd up in fe9.

Just one more thing:

Ed can easily make sure he can do <1/3 of an enemies hp in damage without risking killing something. In the case of anything he doubles (needs 14 AS just for the slow tigers, so may not happen, and 16 for the fast ones so it almost certainly won't for them) you could argue <1/3 total (<1/6 each hit), but honestly I'd have to say <1/2 because the chances of a double crit are way smaller than the chance of high avo characters dying from what most players tend to put them through. And considerably less than what Aran faces. Anyway, if he does .3 damage to a cat, Ilyana + Micaiah can KO the thing pretty easily without a crit. Ditto with doing .4 damage to a tiger. Besides, I calc'd it once and if Ed does double we can avoid the possibility of even a double crit KOing the tiger and he can still cause enough damage with two non-crits that Micaiah + Ilyana can KO. So, can you please show numbers on how Micaiah and Ilyana mysteriously need one of them to crit when you've been told in the past that they don't? Where did you come up with this idea, anyway?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

How's he gaining a level on 300 BEXP?

[Narga_Rocks]

How's he gaining a level on 300 BEXP?

Ed or Aran? I assume they both have >57 exp on the way to their next level. So 7.58 before bexp for each. 300 bexp (well, 294) would give level 8. Well, at 7.57, 294 bexp should get Aran to 7.99, which is probably superior to 8.00 for him. The real question is why we can spend 60% of our bexp on one unit. (And why Lethe couldn't get ~12% in 3-8)

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

How's he gaining a level on 300 BEXP?

Ed or Aran? I assume they both have >57 exp on the way to their next level. So 7.58 before bexp for each. 300 bexp (well, 294) would give level 8. Well, at 7.57, 294 bexp should get Aran to 7.99, which is probably superior to 8.00 for him. The real question is why we can spend 60% of our bexp on one unit. (And why Lethe couldn't get ~12% in 3-8)

I specifically meant to level 9 for Aran.

[Progenitus]

How's he gaining a level on 300 BEXP?

I never said the BEXP would actually put him immediately at 9/0. Rather, it lets him level up after, like, 1 kill.

BTW, I find it funny that we're now complaining about how Edward's 1% chance to land double crits is insignificant, yet Aran's 1% chance to die when he's still 8/0 is significant.

lol @ thinking Edward only needs to do 3 damage to help kill a cat. They go up to 35 HP, 8 def, 6 res, which means if Edward does 3 damage, Micaiah and Ilyana will need to have a combined att total of 44. Micaiah with Thani will have less than 20, and Ilyana with a max mt thunder will barely have 20.

Also, if he wants to do only that much damage to cats, then he ends up doing barely anything vs tigers.

And the problem with this is taht this requires Ilyana getting a strong forge. Which gets expensive as thunder's base price is 880, and we probably want to boost the hit too (+5 mt, +20 hit is already 4488 gold). You still have to buy Nolan's forge, beast killer, and mend, among other things (perhaps Leo a forge if he didn't get his bow rank up to C, which is rather hard for someone who sucks so much at fighting). If Leo doesn't have a strong enough bow, Nolan attacking on enemy phase, Leo following up on player phase, and Nolan doing an attack on player phase actually won't kill off tigers. They ahve liek 41 HP, 10 def, Nolan with max mt iron axe and C Leo has ~27, which means Leo needs 17 att. He's not reaching this with just an iron bow.

So what's the price tag?

- Nolan forge. +5 mt, +20 hit. 2040 gold.

- Beastkiller. 1200.

- Mend. 1000

- hand axe. Nolan's one is probably gone, and a handd axe for him would be nice for 1-5 (it's not available in 1-5 aimee bargains). 625.

This is already almost 5000 gold, before Ilyana's expensive forge, as well as something for Edward since we probably will have to modify his att with a forge, and most likely some kind of forge for Leo so he can help Nolan kill tigers. +1-2 mt is probably enough to 1-2 punch tigers, but sending Nolan to the right will eventually make him face a boss, and you may want a bow with more mt for that.

This also has no crit on Nolan's forge, which is minor, but could be helpful once in awhile.

And edward STILL has to be a high enough level to not get OHKO'd by the 26 att tigers.

I like the random mention of Lethe in 3-8 though (the soren one is a nice touch too, though I have to admit that 6/0 was a stretch. But he still was winning at liek 4/0 anyway, so w/e). Since not did the logic fly over everyone's head (aran gets 1-4 BEXP because no one else's improvements really matter, if the logic the mia fanboys/aran haters was true. Try say that for Lethe in 3-8 when we have people like Neph or Soren or Ike or Shinon or whatever being able to BEXP), but the fact that I didn't deny Lethe getting BEXP, I simply said that it should be considered as a disadvantage.

My post on Lethe right here...

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=10600&view=findpost&p=526328

Not saying Lethe can't get the BEXP (or the energy drop for that matter), but it's ridiculous to try and give her that, and then not even give Mak paragon for a few maps + crown.

I mean, it's nice to bring up random arguments just to make me look bad, but at least try to understand why it's irreelvant.

[Narga_Rocks]

How's he gaining a level on 300 BEXP?

I never said the BEXP would actually put him immediately at 9/0. Rather, it lets him level up after, like, 1 kill.

Still, no.

BTW, I find it funny that we're now complaining about how Edward's 1% chance to land double crits is insignificant, yet Aran's 1% chance to die when he's still 8/0 is significant.

Gee, I wasn't aware that Ed had a 10% chance to crit these things. If so, then obviously double critting would be bad, except it's like a third of the map rather than all of the map. I've said it before, if Aran only had that chance against a small amount of the map, I wouldn't mind so much. I'd just keep him away from them. Like with Ed. I'd make sure he can't double crit to kill those tigers he actually can, and rest in the knowledge that it isn't a problem on the others.

lol @ thinking Edward only needs to do 3 damage to help kill a cat. They go up to 35 HP, 8 def, 6 res, which means if Edward does 3 damage, Micaiah and Ilyana will need to have a combined att total of 44. Micaiah with Thani will have less than 20, and Ilyana with a max mt thunder will barely have 20.

lol @ thinking .3 = 3. Since he can't do .3 damage, it should be clear that it is .3 x full hp. aka 30%. Aka a crit does 90% and doesn't kill. Why would I say 3? A crit does 9 and doesn't come anywhere near KOing the thing.

Also, if he wants to do only that much damage to cats, then he ends up doing barely anything vs tigers.

He is fighting one enemy each turn, and we generally can know which type he fights. Besides, I didn't say 3 damage. Also, he can actually have a higher mt while fighting cats than tigers he doubles. So his limit is when there are 10AS tigers we think he might face. He still does enough to allow Ilyana + Micaiah to KO.

And the problem with this is taht this requires Ilyana getting a strong forge. Which gets expensive as thunder's base price is 880, and we probably want to boost the hit too (+5 mt, +20 hit is already 4488 gold). You still have to buy Nolan's forge, beast killer, and mend, among other things (perhaps Leo a forge if he didn't get his bow rank up to C, which is rather hard for someone who sucks so much at fighting). If Leo doesn't have a strong enough bow, Nolan attacking on enemy phase, Leo following up on player phase, and Nolan doing an attack on player phase actually won't kill off tigers. They ahve liek 41 HP, 10 def, Nolan with max mt iron axe and C Leo has ~27, which means Leo needs 17 att. He's not reaching this with just an iron bow.

It's affordable. You can buy what you need: Forge for Nolan, Beastkiller, Mend, forge for Ilyana. I pulled it off. The others are not relevant. Do a calculation with Micaiah having Thani and Ed doing enough damage to come just short of KOing on a double crit or a crit depending on doubling or not. Does she still need max mt? If so, what stuff can you sell? Does Sothe really need Kard? Or Ilyana Elthunder? I doubt she'll attack enough times to burn through her forge. I'm not sure but you may even be able to get Leo a bit stronger. Anyway, all you really need is enough for them to team up + Ed's whack.

So what's the price tag?

- Nolan forge. +5 mt, +20 hit. 2040 gold.

- Beastkiller. 1200.

- Mend. 1000

- hand axe. Nolan's one is probably gone, and a handd axe for him would be nice for 1-5 (it's not available in 1-5 aimee bargains). 625.

No on the hand axe.

This is already almost 5000 gold, before Ilyana's expensive forge, as well as something for Edward since we probably will have to modify his att with a forge, and most likely some kind of forge for Leo so he can help Nolan kill tigers. +1-2 mt is probably enough to 1-2 punch tigers, but sending Nolan to the right will eventually make him face a boss, and you may want a bow with more mt for that.

You realize making a forge for him pushes him up beyond the point that a crit kills. Why should I make a forge for him?

This also has no crit on Nolan's forge, which is minor, but could be helpful once in awhile.

Feeling wasteful, are we? Yeah, crit on Nolan's forge is sure going to be superior to being able to clear out all the enemies on the top without any effort.

And edward STILL has to be a high enough level to not get OHKO'd by the 26 att tigers.

You denying level 7?

I like the random mention of Lethe in 3-8 though (the soren one is a nice touch too, though I have to admit that 6/0 was a stretch. But he still was winning at liek 4/0 anyway, so w/e). Since not did the logic fly over everyone's head (aran gets 1-4 BEXP because no one else's improvements really matter, if the logic the mia fanboys/aran haters was true. Try say that for Lethe in 3-8 when we have people like Neph or Soren or Ike or Shinon or whatever being able to BEXP), but the fact that I didn't deny Lethe getting BEXP, I simply said that it should be considered as a disadvantage.

My post on Lethe right here...

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=10600&view=findpost&p=526328

Not saying Lethe can't get the BEXP (or the energy drop for that matter), but it's ridiculous to try and give her that, and then not even give Mak paragon for a few maps + crown.

You are equating 12% bexp to paragon for a few maps and a crown. That's hilarious. You then say it is okay to throw in an energy drop.

So let me get this straight.

12% bexp + energy drop = 2 maps of paragon + crown.

12% bexp = 2 maps of paragon + crown.

Therefore energy drop is free.

Can I give her the energy drop without bexp and now Mak gets nothing? Let's do that, then. Otherwise, her getting that bexp alone does not let Mak get all that. And since I was never really trying to push the drop (I'd rather see it on Janaff or something), that means Mak needs less stuff.

Besides, you have to prove that all those other people use the bexp they can have from the 88% plus the extra 12% better than they use just 88% + letting Lethe have 26AS. Keep in mind, Lethe is on the team by the fact she is being rated. So basically whatever that extra 12% does for them is better than having an extra unit doubling. Wow. What the heck did we do with the first 88%?

I mean, it's nice to bring up random arguments just to make me look bad, but at least try to understand why it's irreelvant.

At least try to understand why it is relevant before claiming otherwise.

Also, how can you claim nobody else benefits? I even explained how giving Ed bexp if all he needs is 1 hp is clearly superior to giving it to Aran since Ed already has the luck to not randomly die on us.

Oh, just as a footnote (or something), Red Fox of Fire is running this one. Cynthia is running the fe9 one on Serenes Forest, and I seem to be the one in charge of the list on Fire Emblem Genesis. Note how neither of us are Red Fox of Fire. So technically we don't even have to apply the same value system to this game as the other one.

Of course, those of us that proposed the bexp spending should see the value of doing similar things in similar situations, but nothing I've seen from you shows this to be similar. Besides, Interceptor has himself stated that this type of thinking could cause movement on the fe9 tier list. So far, nobody has attempted to present a case for spending bexp on one unit in any chapter in sufficiently large amounts to cause a change in the unit's position. If someone does and we didn't propose it first, that doesn't make us inconsistent. It just means we haven't bothered to look at each character by ourselves and see what can be done. The same applies to this game. If somehow:

a: you were right that he is best for the bexp, and

b: it actually meant something to his position (or Ed's) on the tier list, and

c: we then attempted to deny him this bexp

Then you could claim that we are pulling a double standard. Even if you are right about a, and actually bothered to say something towards b, the fact that in the past months we never bothered attempting to give Aran this game changing 500 bexp does not mean we are pulling a double standard. It would just mean we never thought of it. I could have posted "wow, you are right, let's give Aran 500 bexp and now he jumps to > Oscar on the tier list" or something. You can't really claim we are pulling a double standard until we have had an opportunity to look into it. And yet, what do I see in your first post on the subject?

Edited November 15, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[nflchamp]

You can't have double standards about BEXP when comparing BEXP usage in FE9 and FE10. The two systems are too different to be able to draw comparisons.

Anyways, no one actually cared all that much about Aran being bad in 1-4. It's not like it ever moved him down in the tier list. The entire debacle only came up since smash was butthurt that Int said Aran was a worse tank in 1-4 than Eddie and has since tried to argue Aran as not being that bad in 1-4.

And edward STILL has to be a high enough level to not get OHKO'd by the 26 att tigers

This is so funny. Eddie level 7:

Chance of having +3 HP: 61.4125%

Chance of having +2 HP: 32.5125%

Chance of having +1 HP: 5.7375%

Chance of having +0 HP: .3375%

Chance of having +3 DEF: 4.2875%

Chance of having +2 DEF: 23.8875%

Chance of having +1 DEF: 44.3625%

Chance of having +0 DEF: 27.4625%

Eddie's chance's at level 7 of not being able to take a 26 MT attack is ~13%.

[Narga_Rocks]

You can't have double standards about BEXP when comparing BEXP usage in FE9 and FE10. The two systems are too different to be able to draw comparisons.

You forget: All favouritism is created equal.

Anyways, no one actually cared all that much about Aran being bad in 1-4. It's not like it ever moved him down in the tier list. The entire debacle only came up since smash was butthurt that Int said Aran was a worse tank in 1-4 than Eddie and has since tried to argue Aran as not being that bad in 1-4.

Yep. He just can't get over it. The fact that in two posts he has not once suggested where Aran should move or how far down Ed should move with our new knowledge about 1-4 shows that he's still just acting out like a child that is upset we took away one of his toys. Also, it's just one chapter.

And edward STILL has to be a high enough level to not get OHKO'd by the 26 att tigers

This is so funny. Eddie level 7:

Chance of having +3 HP: 61.4125%

Chance of having +2 HP: 32.5125%

Chance of having +1 HP: 5.7375%

Chance of having +0 HP: .3375%

Chance of having +3 DEF: 4.2875%

Chance of having +2 DEF: 23.8875%

Chance of having +1 DEF: 44.3625%

Chance of having +0 DEF: 27.4625%

Eddie's chance's at level 7 of not being able to take a 26 MT attack is ~13%.

Actually, I'd like to bring up a point he made that was actually good:

Ed needs at least 1 point of def and for hp + def = 27. Just having 3 points of hp and no extra def means he can't take a shot from a 26 mt tiger after taking 1 already and self healing with a vulnerary.

I would like to counter with:

He can take one shot from a tiger, ~87% of the time. 5 out of 12 tigers have 24 mt. Also no cat will double him. (Well, he starts with 12 AS, right? So he needs 1 point in 3 levels to avoid the double from cats, and has a 60% growth. They should have given Ed the 70% and Zihark the 60%, then gave Zihark a 45% str growth, but no...) So aside from 6 enemies (the first one is dead), he is fine with just a vulnerary. He has at least 21 hp, and a 24 mt tiger does 19 damage to base Ed. Vulnerary makes 22 hp, and he survives another shot from the big guys. So it could work out regardless.

More importantly, he hits at least 6 def 72.5375% of the time. Then he just needs 2 or 3 hp. That's 93.925%. So he's over 65% for having enough to recover with a vulnerary. 68.130846875%, after multiplying. So over 68%. So two thirds of the time Ed is a better tank. One third of the time, Aran is. Except that 72.5375% and the chance of Ed having just 1 hp means that he can take the bexp you want to dump on Aran. That's practically a guaranteed hp. So basically 72% of the time he'll be able to do it. So Aran is left with 28% where he is better against 7 enemies. Now, granted, if Aran actually gets the luck to avoid crits and the speed to avoid doubling he'll be a better tank. With 1 lck tigers no longer can crit and there are only 5 cats. Now, the cats can still kill with a single crit, but oh well. (btw, I love how Aran will probably have that 1 luck after two levels according to smash, but it is an actual concern about Ed getting >= 21hp/6def. Ed's chance is much better.) So if Aran is going to be okay after 2 levels, then Ed is okay if he starts the map at level 7. So why should I bother giving two levels to Aran when I've already got my tank? It's not anywhere near as bad as BAing Kurth to level 40 when we can beat the game in 5 turns or less (shout out to Slaveblade) at that point, of course, but it is still doing something completely unnecessary for the sake of trying to make a unit look better. It's clearly not efficient to spend resources to get something you already have when you don't need an extra one. Ed is just a more cost effective way of dealing with 1-4 (72% of the time, and much more cost effective 68% of the time).

Edited November 15, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

I don't see how us changing our minds about his 1-4 performance will change his tier position,

And that's exactly why I decided to not even bother with it.

In other news, I completely forgot to do that comparison with Boyd (T)...And I don't have time now, so I'll have to get to it another day.

[Progenitus]

You can't have double standards about BEXP when comparing BEXP usage in FE9 and FE10. The two systems are too different to be able to draw comparisons.

No, sorry bro, the idea is the same.

- Mia gets BEXP in ch 8 cause no one else needs it, because apparently their improvement in performance doesn't matter.

- Aran gets BEXP in ch 8 cause no one else needs it, because apparently their improvement in performance doesn't matter.

Anyways, no one actually cared all that much about Aran being bad in 1-4. It's not like it ever moved him down in the tier list. The entire debacle only came up since smash was butthurt that Int said Aran was a worse tank in 1-4 than Eddie and has since tried to argue Aran as not being that bad in 1-4.

It's actually more about people QQing over a 1% chance thing of happening while ignoring the advantages of actually being able to take 2 hits.

Although this entire board being aran haters doesn't really help the poor guy's case.

This is so funny. Eddie level 7:

Chance of having +3 HP: 61.4125%

Chance of having +2 HP: 32.5125%

Chance of having +1 HP: 5.7375%

Chance of having +0 HP: .3375%

Chance of having +3 DEF: 4.2875%

Chance of having +2 DEF: 23.8875%

Chance of having +1 DEF: 44.3625%

Chance of having +0 DEF: 27.4625%

Eddie's chance's at level 7 of not being able to take a 26 MT attack is ~13%.

Combinations that won't let him be able to take a 26 att.

0 def, 0 HP. 0.092686% chance of happening.

0 def, 1 HP. 1.5757%

0 def, 2 HP. 8.929%

0 def, 3 HP (this technically will let him take a hit, but he takes 21 damage to his 22 HP. He then uses a vulnerary to go back to 21 HP, and then dies on the next hit. I would say it's rather risky to not heal him with Micaiah or Laura in this situation, since if Ilyana/Micaiah fail to kill, or if there's another tiger waiting, he's SOL). 16.865%.

1 def, 0 HP. 0.16636%.

1 def, 1 HP. 2.5453%.

2 def, 0 HP. 0.0806%

Comes out to 30.25%.

BTW, even if you can somehow refute 0 def, 3 HP, 13.39% >>>>> whatever aran's chances to die

in other news, i have a new sig

[Florete]

Although this entire board being aran haters doesn't really help the poor guy's case.

And then more false assumptions. I don't think anyone on this board actually hates Aran. I know I don't. He'd probably be Mid or something if I did.

[Allan's Aokage]

No, sorry bro, the idea is the same.

- Mia gets BEXP in ch 8 cause no one else needs it, because apparently their improvement in performance doesn't matter.

- Aran gets BEXP in ch 8 cause no one else needs it, because apparently their improvement in performance doesn't matter.

Now. I, for one, want Aran to move up in the list. But I have no idea where I can find the HM (or NM, whichever) enemy stats so I can prove it; hence why I'm normally lurking in this topic. I just hope that you don't make it impossible to move it up with these arguments.

But this argument is... awful. Let's compare;

Path of Radiance's system works as follows; you can give BEXP to any unit in any quantity, and all level ups are treated as a normal level up (in Random Mode, anyway). Radiant Dawn's system is quite different; again, you can give BEXP to any unit in any quantity, but if you level up, you get three stats guaranteed. Now, my three-year-old cousin (who is... dim, to say the least) could tell me that those are not the same. Heck, my three-year-old cousin worked out a good system for BEXP (only use it when you've reached a few caps in your stats to ensure you get higher stats all around) at the same time.

In Path of Radiance, Mia greatly benefits from having BEXP, as it gives her superior functionality in the following chapter; please go to the PoR Tier List for more info on this - it makes her pretty damn useful, as she can suddenly wipe out Armour Knights without breaking a sweat.

In Radiant Dawn, it's a different story. Aran will cap Skill and Defence by Level 20 naturally (according to Average Stats), with Strength being a presumed cap because it's a .25 chance of not doing so. One level of BEXP or two will have him cap Strength. This makes him pretty good in 3-13 (at least in Normal Mode, not 100% sure on Hard Mode since I haven't seen the stats). But this is irrelevant.

In the map being debated at the moment, there is no reason to give him BEXP. Sure, he deserves it, but it's a bad idea to give it to him at this moment in time. He joins at Lv 7, so he's roughly on par with the rest of the Dawn Brigade (?). Whether you give him BEXP or not, Edward is still going to handle the Tigers and Cats better. Aran has a Javelin anyway; although I've not seen the stats (if someone could provide me with a directory or something with them in, I'll make a superior argument about this matter) - he could just cower behind Sothe/Nolan/whoever and throw them at them, which gives him CEXP anyway.

My apologies for rambling on, my dear fellows. I apologise for my rudeness and I humbly request access to information regarding the enemies in this level, if this is acceptable :) I don't know where to start looking, otherwise I would attempt to back up my facts.

-edit-

My apologies, but I am thinking that Oscar could afford to move down a spot or two; as I recall, despite his 9 Move outside of buildings, he's hilariously fragile if he isn't following directly behind his support partner. Although, I suppose you could have him support Titania and have them crush anything, I guess.

*is hardly an expert in such matters, of course*

Edited November 15, 2009 by Allan's Aokage

[Florete]

Now. I, for one, want Aran to move up in the list. But I have no idea where I can find the HM (or NM, whichever) enemy stats so I can prove it; hence why I'm normally lurking in this topic. I just hope that you don't make it impossible to move it up with these arguments.

Top o' this board, buddy.

[Narga_Rocks]

Love how smash still isn't attempting to justify how:

12% bexp = 2 chapters of paragon + crown.

Instead he just takes a random potshot at what I said and doesn't even put it in the topic. I question why the energy drop is involved in his original statement. I point out he is saying that she can have the 12% and the energy drop and Mak gets 2 chapters of paragon and a crown. I point out that I don't care about giving her the drop and would much rather put it elsewhere. At this point, his giving of 2 chapters of paragon and a crown to Mak is now unbalanced in Mak's favour. Either that or the drop is free. It's simple math, and he can't seem to understand it.

You have an equation. Two sides of the equation are equal. You take something away from one side of the equation. If the equality still holds true, that means that the item removed has value of zero. If the item removed does not have value of zero, that means that the equality no longer holds. Therefore either Mak is getting too much stuff or Lethe can have the drop for free. Since the latter is obviously untrue, the former must be true. Therefore Mak is getting too much stuff when he tries to give Mak two chapters of paragon and a crown.

And he says that applying obvious mathematical concepts is throwing logic into a black hole.

Wow. Smash fails mathematics forever. (But then I kinda already knew that, so no shocker there.)

[Allan's Aokage]

Top o' this board, buddy.

...well, that's embarrassing ^^;

In any case, here are my arguments regarding Aran's performance in 1-4;

Firstly, the Tigers - the weakest one has the following stats:

1x Tiger lvl 4

HP 39, Atk 24, AS 10, Hit 120, Avo 26, DEF 10, RES 2, Crit 6, Ddg 1

Aran w/o any levels or supports (Iron Lance);

HP 24, Atk 17, AS 10, Hit 115, Avo 26, Def 11, Ddg 6

Edward at Level 7 w/o supports (Iron Sword);

HP 22, Atk 15, AS 14, Hit 126, Avo 38, Def 6, Ddg 10

Squabble all you want, but against the weakest Tiger, there's no way in hell that Aran is doubling without 4 levels of Speed ups. Both he and the Tiger aren't going to dodge each other's attacks, so Aran just has to eat a Herb every turn to avoid being killed by one of them. he has a tiny 6% displayed chance of dodging, and barely misses out on the possibility of taking a crit. He'll have 11HP left after the Tiger attacks him, and he'll do 7 damage in return. Not bad.

Edward, on the other hand, will double the weakest tiger (barely), has a 12% displayed chance of dodging the tiger, and does 5 damage twice; that's ten damage in all, not counting the fact that Wrath will be active if he doesn't dodge. Of course, it's actually a bad thing that this happens, so your mileage may vary on this point. He takes 18 damage from the tiger, leaving him with 4HP. Ouch.

Of course, both of them suck on this chapter. The optimal way to do it would be to have Edward sitting in front of one of the gates with Laura healing him every turn (or Edward using a Vulenary), with Aran contributing chip damage with his Javelin. When the tiger reaches low HP (assuming no crits or levels up, this will happen in the third turn), so Edward (or Aran) can finish the Tiger off and move on to another enemy. Assuming it stays still, of course.

But as mentioned, they suck in this chapter. There's no real difference between them and it's irrelevant to Aran vs Mia. Aran can gain some levels by using his Javelin, or taking some damage from the cats. I'd estimate 1-2 levels, being unfavourable.

-note- I didn't give Edward a support as to make it "fair" to Smash; he's probably above level 7, too. But Edward has a pretty damn good chance of getting a Nolan support, or maybe something from Edward. In addition, this is a "equal" comparison of the two, ignoring the fact that Edward is technically handicapped at this point. And this assumes no stat boosters are used on either of them. I could easily give a Dracoshield to Edward to make him less of a walking target.

[Ether]

Wait,you`re trying to argue him over Mia?Lol.good luck buddy.

[Narga_Rocks]

Wait,you`re trying to argue him over Mia?Lol.good luck buddy.

I think he's more talking:

Mia's worthiness of bexp in chapter 8 of PoR

vs.

Aran's worthiness of bexp in chapter 1-4 of RD

At least, I hope that is what he meant.

[Allan's Aokage]

Who, me?

I'm not very stupid, Mia definitely owns Aran, if only because she has better availability, chapters and stats all-around. Sure, she's swordlocked, but who cares when that means you get Alondite or the Vague Katti?

I just recall Aran > Mia popping up earlier in the thread and I assumed this was a side track of that.

On a different note: @Red Fox of Fire; good madam, have you considered making a second topic for this? As this has reaches 201 pages, it seems to have gotten a tad unwieldy, and I have no doubt that duplicate arguments are going to start appearing because this is hardly searchable. Sorry for the trouble ^^;;

[Ether]

That's fine then.Just making sure.

[Progenitus]

I don't care if this post gets modded.

Love how smash still isn't attempting to justify how:

12% bexp = 2 chapters of paragon + crown.

You fucking genius, do you not even know how to read?

Here, let me repost the bit on Lethe for you again.

Not saying Lethe can't get the BEXP (or the energy drop for that matter), but it's ridiculous to try and give her that, and then not even give Mak paragon for a few maps + crown.

What this is actually supposed to mean is that you can't pull a double standard by giving Lethe a bunch of crap and then QQ that Mak can't get anything.

NOWHERE in this statement did I ever say that the favoritism Lethe is getting is equal to the favoritism Mak is getting. And then you intentionally misinterpreted my argument into thinking that I said BEXP = paragon + crown and magically made the energy drop worth nothing of value. You know how you and barragan and a bunch of other munchkins always complain that I strawman and put words into other people's mouths? You committed the exact same fucking thing you accuse me of doing.

And here I'm wondering when people will realize that you're a total joke.

And I also noticed that you and some other people have made jabs at me in this topic, even if I haven't posted for weeks. If you're going to make jabs at me, don't be a pussy and hide it in a 200 page topic that I'll never find. At least I make a separate topic when I want to make jabs at someone.

Edited November 16, 2009 by 8========================D

[Narga_Rocks]

Love how smash still isn't attempting to justify how:

12% bexp = 2 chapters of paragon + crown.

You fucking genius, do you not even know how to read?

Here, let me repost the bit on Lethe for you again.

Not saying Lethe can't get the BEXP (or the energy drop for that matter), but it's ridiculous to try and give her that, and then not even give Mak paragon for a few maps + crown.

And how does that not say that if I give Lethe a little bexp Mak gets all that? Because the whole thing originally had me trying to suggest that giving Mak paragon for two maps and a crown was unbalanced. So, you need to give Mak less. How is that complicated? And if you aren't saying that Lethe getting 12% of our bexp once in 3-8 is equal to giving Mak paragon for two maps + crown, then what is equal to Lethe's bexp? You have so far never suggested an equal trade. Look at what I bolded. That actually implies that he should get at least that much. The words "not even give" definitely imply that you think the paragon and crown are minor in comparison to the bexp, or at least are not greater than. If I give Lethe something, there is no reason for me to give Mak something vastly superior.

What this is actually supposed to mean is that you can't pull a double standard by giving Lethe a bunch of crap and then QQ that Mak can't get anything.

"A bunch of crap"? You really need to stop that. It suggests that 12% bexp in one map is somehow a major deal. It is a small matter. If you really want to even the scales, give him 12% bexp at some point. It's a little communist, but you tend to not accept things that aren't. I don't refuse to give Mak anything, I suggest you are trying to give him far too much. In other words, cut back on what he gets.

NOWHERE in this statement did I ever say that the favoritism Lethe is getting is equal to the favoritism Mak is getting.

Well of course you didn't. Even you know it is ridiculous, apparently. That doesn't stop your words from implying it. I give Lethe A, you say I must give Mak B as a result. How can I not interpret that to mean that you think A is at least as much as B.

And then you intentionally misinterpreted my argument into thinking that I said BEXP = paragon + crown and magically made the energy drop worth nothing of value.

I think you have issues reading.

A + B = C + D. That is what it seems like from bexp + drop = 2 paragons + crown. Or at least if I give Lethe those two things then I must give Mak "all that crap". Why should I have to give all that to Mak if they aren't equal?

But this all started from me simply giving Lethe A. At which point you practically demanded that Mak gets C + D as a result of my giving A to Lethe. In fact, it is unfair if I do not give Mak C + D. It is apparently a double standard to not give Mak "all that crap". So, if A + B = C + D is okay, and A = C + D is also okay, I have to ask what you think B is worth. Either that, or you have to accept that C + D is too much to give to Mak in return for Lethe getting A and give him something different.

You know how you and barragan and a bunch of other munchkins always complain that I strawman and put words into other people's mouths? You committed the exact same fucking thing you accuse me of doing.

No, I took your suggestions and stuck them in equations. In return, I got that B = 0. If you disagree with A + B = C + D, then why was that okay? If you disagree with A = C + D, then why did you try to shove C + D down our throats as a result of us giving A to Lethe? Forgive me for thinking you actually reasoned through what to give Mak and came to a conclusion you thought was even. I'll try to remember in the future to assume you made no such calculations and thus I won't assume that what your words imply are what you are actually saying. I apologize for thinking you were acting logically. It won't happen again.

Anyway, I know B does not = 0. I was using that result from your suggestions to show that your suggestions are wrong. Which you now claim to agree with. You now seem to say that A < C + D. If that is the case, then my posts are successful. And now you could come up with something that actually equates to A rather than something that is >> A.

And here I'm wondering when people will realize that you're a total joke.

With that coming from someone that most people actually realize is a total joke, I'm not too worried about your thoughts. I'd wonder how much longer it will be until you start being rational, but I don't like thinking about non-finite time intervals.

And I also noticed that you and some other people have made jabs at me in this topic, even if I haven't posted for weeks. If you're going to make jabs at me, don't be a pussy and hide it in a 200 page topic that I'll never find. At least I make a separate topic when I want to make jabs at someone.

I suppose it's nice that you make jabs in separate topics. However, you generally post in other topics while you aren't bothering with the tier lists. I have, in fact, seen some of your posts in other topics while you completely ignore this one. It is hardly our fault if you don't bother to check the topic while you are going to other topics. Also, even if you are offline for 4 days in a row out of the 10 days you are ignoring this topic, it isn't really our responsibility to monitor your online activity before making comments about you.

Basically, we aren't trying to hide insults from you. Most of the time. If we were, we wouldn't be putting it in this topic, we'd be PMing each other about what an idiot you are.

Besides, I did once make a topic as a return jab to one of yours. I just haven't bothered making others because I don't actually see the point now. If stuff comes up in the tier list that makes me think "oh, smash would hate this", or "smash would say this, but we know that's wrong so let's ignore it" or whatever, I'll type it where it is relevant rather than make a new topic about it. I'm not convinced you get mentioned all that often, though. Although you are memorable, I don't think any of us actually think about you all that often.