OMG it's a tier list

[Ether]

Then give him the shield.It still doesn't make a tier gap.

EDIT:BTW,there are twice as many robes as Shields Ninji,and raising 3 first tier DB's at the same time is lol.

Edited November 29, 2009 by Ether

[Zkirsche]

Nolan should be given something to compensate for Jill taking the Robe to make the comparison more fair. His competition for the shield isn't even big.

What? Remember Gatrie with his crown? Mia with adept? Titania/Haar with the speedwing? Efficient runthrough's aren't necessarily "fair" and this tier list is based off of an efficient runthrough.

Though, I'd like to point out that Zihark isn't invincible in part 3. At level 6, with 'B' Nolan, he has 32 HP, 14 Def and 92 Avo. Though, the draco shield doesn't really help him much. Heck, a 20/1 Nolan is barely helped by the shield. Basically, the level 15 cats 6RKO him instead of being 4RKO'ed. Not a great improvement. He'd rather have a speedwing than a dracoshield.

Edited November 29, 2009 by kirsche

[_____]

Then give him the shield.It still doesn't make a tier gap.

When did I say it did?

EDIT:BTW,there are twice as many robes as Shields Ninji

You get one late in 1-E.

That's like saying, "Yeah, but you get an Ashera Staff in 4-E-5, so *blank* can spam the one Psychic we have all they want!"

and raising 3 first tier DB's at the same time is lol.

Nolan and Aran aren't exactly Leonardo. They're some of the better first tier units to use. 3 first tiers doesn't seem very unlikely to me, either. LEA, the Black Knight, Nailah, and Taur (for 3-6) all disappear, so you're going to need units to do Part 3.

Don't bring up this "easy button" strategy bullshit, either. I can have Pass + Savior Haar and Ike take on Part 3 alone, but will I? Not a chance.

What? Remember Gatrie with his crown? Mia with adept? Titania/Haar with the speedwing? Efficient runthrough's aren't necessarily "fair" and this tier list is based off of an efficient runthrough.

This is favoring High Tier units over Low Tier units.

Low Tier units are lower than the High Tier units. This is a fact. Shall we deny them the chance of being fielded at all in their comparisons, too? I mean, this is an efficiency tier list, damn it, we should only be using the best of the best!

This is what I think about your Crown. Your Adept. Your Speedwing. You can not assume that they solely belong to the units that use them best and that it is impossible for any other unit to get them, otherwise you run straight into the situation I mocked above.

This is not to say that we can not assume that they get the resource when they are being compared, nor is it saying that we should assume that nobody gets a resource. There needs to be a cost assigned, even to characters that use the resources best. That cost may be lower because of that, but that's irrelevant.

Flat out denying Nolan any chance of getting the Shield is bullshit.

Though, I'd like to point out that Zihark isn't invincible in part 3. At level 6, with 'B' Nolan, he has 32 HP, 14 Def and 92 Avo. Though, the draco shield doesn't really help him much.

A Nolan is a possibility by this point, you know.

Even without it, 45 hit isn't exactly reliable, and then there are Thickets...

Rafiel joins with the second Draco dude.you have it in the 1-8 base.

... Oops.

Even so, 1-8 isn't exactly early. Nolan and Aran even have 2 chapters for use of the Robe over Jill (hi i'm an NPC in 1-5 and then i disappear for 1-8). Micaiah has 3, if you count 1-9, but the BK is just destroying everything there, so, yeah.

Forgot my post?

You posted 11 minutes after him. I was already replaying once you posted.

Edited November 29, 2009 by Ninji

[Ether]

Rafiel joins with the second Draco dude.you have it in the 1-8 base.

[Zkirsche]

Forgot my post?

Draco

I hope you mean robe.

[Ether]

Forgot my post?

Draco

I hope you mean robe.

Yeah,I do.

[_____]

Um, yeah, edited my post to respond to everything.

[Zkirsche]

Nolan doesn't really care about the dracoshield anyway, so this debate is pointless.

[_____]

Nolan doesn't really care about the dracoshield anyway, so this debate is pointless.

The whole "let's give Jill the robe cost free" thing, though? Not as pointless.

[Ether]

Nolan doesn't really care about the dracoshield anyway, so this debate is pointless.

The whole "let's give Jill the robe cost free" thing, though? Not as pointless.

No one ever said it was free,stop blowing things out of proportion.Nolan wasn't given a draco since he doesn't need one,not because he couldn;t have one.

Jill is competing with 2 other people seriously for one of 2 Robes,Micky and Aran.

Aran isn's good enough to be assumed to be in play anyway,and she puts the robe to better use than him,and Micky only pulls a short period of use with it,since her durability becomes unsalvageable.

Now for Economics makes me hungry V2.0:

Micky is a soft pretzel,worth 3

Aran is a piece of crunchy garlic bread worth 5

Jill is a bottle of Smokin' hot Fireball Whiskey,worth 10

Taking a swig of jill is a much better investment,and before you question the values,look at what each unit does with the robe.

[Zkirsche]

Then give me a unit who does just as well with it as Jill does. Aran doesn't have the offence to put it to as much use and Micaiah sacrificing doesn't mean much with the LEA, BK an Nailah running around. Laura's fine, really, aside from teh early chapters, but we don't have a robe then, so that doesn't matter.

I never said it comes without any cost, but there's no way in hell it produces a tier gap between them.

Also, I have issue with this:

This is favoring High Tier units over Low Tier units.

Lol? Shinon with Adept gets a somewhat acceptable enemy phase. Oscar with a speedwing doubles more enemies than Haar does with a speedwing. Nephenee with Adept has a much better part 3. Titania with a crown gets decent durability and better doubling prowess quickly and easily etcetera. Last time I checked, these were all high/upper mid tier units. Oh, and a bit futher own the list, Boyd with a speedwing doubles sooner, Mist and Rhys stop gettign doubled sooner etc. And those were only mid/lower-upper mid units.

[Florete]

My view on the part 1 Robes is that Jill uses one best, Aran second best (he doesn't really make much use of it until later anyway, so he can take the 1-8 Robe), and Micaiah only if you aren't using anyone else who needs it (Like Fiona or Meg, maybe Zihark).

I do agree that it doesn't come free, but the point is that she's best with it so she can be compared under the assumption she gets it in most cases. But if there's no disagreement that Jill (T) is worthy of High tier anyway, there's not much reason to argue about this so much.

[Narga_Rocks]

But if there's no disagreement that Jill (T) is worthy of High tier anyway, there's not much reason to argue about this so much.

That should only come if people try to argue her above Rafiel, Shinon, Neph(T), Nolan. Then there is a big reason to discuss what type of comparisons to make and how much the robe actually costs compared to what she gets out of it (and what other units can get for what cost).

Oh, and Nolan x Zihark are so not making an A for 3-6. Zihark x Volug I can maybe buy, though still no, but Nolan x Zihark is just not happening. Should it really take 12 turns to finish 1-E? Even if it does, are they really going to be adjacent every single turn? (Or I suppose Nolan can shove Zihark once and they only need to be adjacent 11 times, but still.)

Also, I'm sorry to say kirsche but I don't understand what you are driving at with this:

Lol? Shinon with Adept gets a somewhat acceptable enemy phase. Oscar with a speedwing doubles more enemies than Haar does with a speedwing. Nephenee with Adept has a much better part 3. Titania with a crown gets decent durability and better doubling prowess quickly and easily etcetera. Last time I checked, these were all high/upper mid tier units. Oh, and a bit futher own the list, Boyd with a speedwing doubles sooner, Mist and Rhys stop gettign doubled sooner etc. And those were only mid/lower-upper mid units.

Ninji's original complaint there involved that us assuming things on Mia/Gatrie/Titania is favouring the high tier units too much. Pointing out that things help other units a bit too just emphasizes his point. His point being that we are denying the lower units access to resources.

The counter has always been that the team is better with the better unit getting the item. And that this is true even with the stipulation that the lower unit must be in play and is now not as good as it could be with the resource.

Edited November 29, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[_____]

No one ever said it was free,stop blowing things out of proportion.Nolan wasn't given a draco since he doesn't need one,not because he couldn;t have one.

Jill is competing with 2 other people seriously for one of 2 Robes,Micky and Aran.

Aran isn's good enough to be assumed to be in play anyway,and she puts the robe to better use than him,and Micky only pulls a short period of use with it,since her durability becomes unsalvageable.

Now for Economics makes me hungry V2.0:

Micky is a soft pretzel,worth 3

Aran is a piece of crunchy garlic bread worth 5

Jill is a bottle of Smokin' hot Fireball Whiskey,worth 10

Taking a swig of jill is a much better investment,and before you question the values,look at what each unit does with the robe.

No one ever said it was free,stop blowing things out of proportion.Nolan wasn't given a draco since he doesn't need one,not because he couldn;t have one.

Jill is competing with 2 other people seriously for one of 2 Robes,Micky and Aran.

Aran isn's good enough to be assumed to be in play anyway,and she puts the robe to better use than him,and Micky only pulls a short period of use with it,since her durability becomes unsalvageable.

Jill is competing with 2 other people seriously for one of 2 Robes,Micky and Aran.

Aran isn's good enough to be assumed to be in play anyway,and she puts the robe to better use than him,and Micky only pulls a short period of use with it,since her durability becomes unsalvageable.

Jill is competing with 2 other people seriously for one of 2 Robes,Micky and Aran.

Aran isn's good enough to be assumed to be in play anyway,and she puts the robe to better use than him,and Micky only pulls a short period of use with it,since her durability becomes unsalvageable.

Aran isn's good enough to be assumed to be in play anyway,and she puts the robe to better use than him,and Micky only pulls a short period of use with it,since her durability becomes unsalvageable.

Aran isn's good enough to be assumed to be in play anyway,and she puts the robe to better use than him

Aran isn's good enough to be assumed to be in play anyway

Upper Mid characters won't be used, guys!

Aran doesn't have the offence to put it to as much use

Why does offense have any bearing on a defensive stat booster that he can put to approximately the same use (Aran has 1-5 and 1-8 over Jill, arguably better use in Part 4 since Jill has hit-and-run tactics while Aran doesn't, and then Part 4 for Jill)?

Yes, Aran's offense is worse than Jill (T)'s. That's why he's lower than her.

and Micaiah sacrificing doesn't mean much with the LEA, BK an Nailah running around

Tormod and Vika will need healing, not to mention Sothe, Volug, and any Tier 1s.

Laura's fine, really, aside from teh early chapters, but we don't have a robe then, so that doesn't matter.

Never mentioned Laura, but she needs to be level 9 to avoid being 1H/RKO'd by a majority of the enemies in 1-6-1. Frankly, I don't see it as a likely level for her to be.

I never said it comes without any cost, but there's no way in hell it produces a tier gap between them.

Again, never argued that.

Oh, and Nolan x Zihark are so not making an A for 3-6. Zihark x Volug I can maybe buy, though still no, but Nolan x Zihark is just not happening. Should it really take 12 turns to finish 1-E? Even if it does, are they really going to be adjacent every single turn? (Or I suppose Nolan can shove Zihark once and they only need to be adjacent 11 times, but still.)

I'd certainly say that 1-E at least takes around 10 turns, but I dunno', maybe I'm just slow. Anyway, since they already have a B support built up and need to be within 3 tiles of each other anyway, it's not impossible for them to be adjacent.

Also, I'm sorry to say kirsche but I don't understand what you are driving at with this:

Lol? Shinon with Adept gets a somewhat acceptable enemy phase. Oscar with a speedwing doubles more enemies than Haar does with a speedwing. Nephenee with Adept has a much better part 3. Titania with a crown gets decent durability and better doubling prowess quickly and easily etcetera. Last time I checked, these were all high/upper mid tier units. Oh, and a bit futher own the list, Boyd with a speedwing doubles sooner, Mist and Rhys stop gettign doubled sooner etc. And those were only mid/lower-upper mid units.

Ninji's original complaint there involved that us assuming things on Mia/Gatrie/Titania is favouring the high tier units too much. Pointing out that things help other units a bit too just emphasizes his point. His point being that we are denying the lower units access to resources.

Yeah, I don't get what you're getting at, either.

The counter has always been that the team is better with the better unit getting the item. And that this is true even with the stipulation that the lower unit must be in play and is now not as good as it could be with the resource.

I understand this. I, however, don't believe that said unit should be assumed to have a complete monopoly over that item.

[Ether]

Upper Mid characters won't be used, guys!

That's not what I meant and you know it.You were BAWWWWing about how Aran might want a robe,and i said Aran wasn;t good enough to assume he's always in play and taking a robe,like you were implying by overexxagerating Jill's opportunity cost.

[_____]

That's not what I meant and you know it.You were BAWWWWing about how Aran might want a robe,and i said Aran wasn;t good enough to assume he's always in play and taking a robe,like you were implying by overexxagerating Jill's opportunity cost.

The fact that he's not always in play is irrelevant to the fact that he wants it, and it's not like he's her only competition.

And it's not an exaggeration. Everyone in Tier 1 wants it, with Micaiah and Aran being the main contenders. That's a lot of people.

[Zkirsche]

Why does offense have any bearing on a defensive stat booster that he can put to approximately the same use (Aran has 1-5 and 1-8 over Jill, arguably better use in Part 4 since Jill has hit-and-run tactics while Aran doesn't, and then Part 4 for Jill)?

Yes, Aran's offense is worse than Jill (T)'s. That's why he's lower than her.

Because he can't put it to the same use because his offense is worse than Jill's. And because of this we end up with 1 highly defensive unit with mediocre offence and a unit with good offence but mediocre defence with your strategy, but with my strategy we end up with 1 highly defensive unit with mediocre defence and a unit with good offence and defence.

Yeah, I don't get what you're getting at, either.

I've got to stop misinterpretting what people say. Sorry about that, somehow I read it as "in those comparisons it's only high tier units (Titania/Gatrie/Mia) versus low tier units (like soren and rofl)". Emphasis on somehow.

Guess I'm just tired.

Everyone in Tier 1 wants it

Ture enougth, but aside from Micaiah, Nolan, Aran and Jill, we have lolEdward, lolLeo, lolMeg and roflolFiona. That's a lot of people.... that we're not gonna bother using most of the time.

Again, never argued that.

Ok, I guess that means you're fine with the move for Jill into high.

Any opposition?

Edited November 29, 2009 by kirsche

[Ether]

And in an efficient run,you only raise 1~2 first tier DBer's,because if you don;t,the exp is spread too thin.You don't play Aran/Nolan/Jill/Whoever at the same time because it isn't efficient in the slightest.

This is an efficiency tier list,not a Sandbag Jill by training every DBer you get in the whole fucking game tier list.

As for why offense matters for durability boosters,it is simple.

For example,unit A is 9001HKO'd by every enemy on the map,and 10HKO's everything,while Unit B is 3HKO'd and 1RKO's everything.

Obviously,unit B is the one you want fighting enemies,because even though unit A is more durable,they don;t have much contribution to moving forward because you need to kill enemies to advance through the game.

If you had a way to make unit B 4HKO'd,or make unit A 9002HKO'd,and you could only have one,which one would you pick?The answer is obvious,unless you want to relinquish any credibility you ever had or will have.

[_____]

Because he can't put it to the same use because his offense is worse than Jill's. And because of this we end up with 1 highly defensive unit with mediocre offence and a unit with good offence but mediocre defence with your strategy, but with my strategy we end up with 1 highly defensive unit with mediocre defence and a unit with good offence and defence.

As for why offense matters for durability boosters,it is simple.

For example,unit A is 9001HKO'd by every enemy on the map,and 10HKO's everything,while Unit B is 3HKO'd and 1RKO's everything.

Obviously,unit B is the one you want fighting enemies,because even though unit A is more durable,they don;t have much contribution to moving forward because you need to kill enemies to advance through the game.

If you had a way to make unit B 4HKO'd,or make unit A 9002HKO'd,and you could only have one,which one would you pick?The answer is obvious,unless you want to relinquish any credibility you ever had or will have.

I would argue these, but I'm tired, so, fine, Jill has a better claim to it than Aran, however slight it is. She still doesn't own it.

And in an efficient run,you only raise 1~2 first tier DBer's,because if you don;t,the exp is spread too thin.You don't play Aran/Nolan/Jill/Whoever at the same time because it isn't efficient in the slightest.

This is an efficiency tier list,not a Sandbag Jill by training every DBer you get in the whole fucking game tier list.

When did I say they're being used on every playthrough? Let's say that only Aran and Jill are being used for the DB, with Laura as a Healer. You already have 4 units (including Micaiah) who want the Robe, while Aran, Laura, and Micaiah all have access to it earlier, and they aren't missing 1-8, either.

I've got to stop misinterpretting what people say. Sorry about that, somehow I read it as "in those comparisons it's only high tier units (Titania/Gatrie/Mia) versus low tier units (like soren and rofl)". Emphasis on somehow.

Guess I'm just tired.

I know that feeling.

Ture enougth, but aside from Micaiah, Nolan, Aran and Jill, we have lolEdward, lolLeo, lolMeg and roflolFiona. That's a lot of people.... that we're not gonna bother using most of the time.

Loledward? I wouldn't go that far. He's Lower Mid, but he's not exactly terribad.

Ok, I guess that means you're fine with the move for Jill into high.

Any opposition?

I don't have any problems with it atm, though Jill (T) > Nolan, I'm still shaky on.

[Ether]

Let's look at your example,Aran,Laura,Micky,and Jill.2 of them can get a robe,so who should get it?

Aran:Has a slight period before his Def growth kicks in,and is only really using the robe to shorten his lol period.He is still a mediocre choice for enemy phase,due to bad offense.Might see some benefit in 3-6,but he then drops off the face of the earth in part 4

Laura:hai guiz,I still get doubled and OHKO'd by everything,only it happend liek 2 or 3 mapes later.Top teir nao plz.

Micky:Uh,I can't have an enemy phase anyway,and my use comes from Thanirape/Wrathrape/stavewhoring.Why did you waste a robe on me again?

Jill:Hi,I have flying utility which I can now make full use of because I can tank now.I also have really good offense,so I can rape on the enemy phase,BTW,did I mention that i can go on Silver army in part 4 and not only Fly in the desert,but nuke the paladin bombs.Also,i`m still benifiting from that Robe.

So,is Jill`s chance of getting a Robe high enough to be assumed on a common basis?Yes,it is.

[grandjackal]

That's not what I meant and you know it.You were BAWWWWing about how Aran might want a robe,and i said Aran wasn;t good enough to assume he's always in play and taking a robe,like you were implying by overexxagerating Jill's opportunity cost.

Last I checked, there weren't a lot of people just hanging around on the DB team. I think the appropriate response is "We can't assume he's in play during part 4", not that we assume that most of the time anyways.

I saw a bit of hipocrisy here in the form that I just noticed that fastforwarding was assumed. Apparently they can be assumed whenever we're talking about the DB, despite the fact that it's constantly said that they aren't always assumed, but are merely a bonus for the character itself that's capable of doing so. YET, here we see Nolan is somehow in high. Granted he helps, but he's no Mia, not without effort anyways. He's certainly no Volug either. You would also need plenty of effort even for a high leveled tier 1 guy. How can we assume this for him if we're just fastforwarding? Why does the rest of the DB get shat on, yet he gets a free pass? He can't exactly solo part 1 and 3. I can see why Zihark's up there, but why is Nolan with him in the same tier?

Also, I think Ninji's complaint is that without resources, those in high are already high material in the first place, and giving them items is redundant. Of course we're gonna give them resources, all lists are assuming this (though other lists aren't as specific because A. They don't have to be, or B. They don't have nearly the amount of resources this game has). So it's like why give stuff to guys who are already good anyways? The answer usually is "because demi-gods are good". Fair and all, but it still seems redundant when a whole group can just steamroll through the missions anyways. You didn't really shave off turns as much as you just don't require as many people on the team.

[Ether]

Where did we say we were fastforwarding?I'm pretty sure i never did...

[grandjackal]

Wasn't referring to you, Ether.

Then give me a unit who does just as well with it as Jill does. Aran doesn't have the offence to put it to as much use and Micaiah sacrificing doesn't mean much with the LEA, BK an Nailah running around. Laura's fine, really, aside from teh early chapters, but we don't have a robe then, so that doesn't matter.

But it doesn't mean I didn't see it.

[Ether]

Ah,ok then,NVM.

[Narga_Rocks]

Wasn't referring to you, Ether.

Then give me a unit who does just as well with it as Jill does. Aran doesn't have the offence to put it to as much use and Micaiah sacrificing doesn't mean much with the LEA, BK an Nailah running around. Laura's fine, really, aside from teh early chapters, but we don't have a robe then, so that doesn't matter.

But it doesn't mean I didn't see it.

Ah,ok then,NVM.

What? How does that say "fast forward"? Laura is simple enough to protect, Micaiah doesn't need to be able to sacrifice when you've got the big guns. I can stick a tome on Tormod that won't kill and Vika won't kill and Sothe won't kill and by now Volug won't kill. All those units don't really need Micaiah and her sacrifice since Laura is enough. You can use them to feed kills to your tier 1 units if you really want, and thus we aren't fast forwarding. Plus, you don't get a choice on how much she sacrifices. Use sacrifice on a unit with low hp that has a max hp >30 and it's all gone either way, but frequently having 20 hp will be enough for some of these guys to last until Laura is available.

And when you can have Jill with good durability and good offence and use her, that's still not quite as extreme as sending Nailah and co. out there to ORKO. So suggesting Jill in high is actually not necessarily going to mesh with the fast forward option. But it is still better than increasing the durability of Aran. He gets benefit from that for probably 1-5 and 1-6, then again for a couple of turns in 3-6 before he'd be 3RKOd anyway (if he isn't already at the threshold at the beginning of the map without the robe) and then the benefit is gone. Jill has bigger gains (because it allows more exposure of a unit with better offence) in each map, and she benefits for much longer too. We are talking 1-6, 1-7, 1-E, 3-6, 3-12, 3-13, 4-P, 4-3, probably 4-E as well. Throw that up against a couple of part 1 maps and a quarter of one part 3 map? kirsche using 10 for Jill and 5 for Aran is actually not extreme at all.

Also, that 3-6 benefit doesn't really count, since Aran is still a good (relatively speaking) candidate for the 1-8 robe. On the flip side, that hurts Jill's case because of all those chapters from 1-E on being covered by the 1-8 robe. Still, 1-6-1 and 1-6-2 are a big reason to give the 1-4 robe to her rather than Aran. Let's her go after the flying pegs more freely, and since we are looking at Jill (T) she doubles them all instead of just the ones weighed down. Not sure if she ORKOs with a hand axe, though. In 1-6-2, getting to Fiona fast is a good thing, as always. She may not even need to take Sothe with her, though I still recommend it. Robe keeps her alive. When I send Jill in there without the robe I have to hang her back from the enemies and only attack if I can limit the number of enemies that can target her. 1-7 her only advantage over Aran is the offence, of course. 1-8 he's probably quite durable with just his def growth finally working for him.

So it is basically 1-5 and 1-8 against her massive 1-6, and as I said in 1-8 the improvement from the robe is kinda minor. 1-5 is 5 turns long and given the layout I'm not convinced he sees a big performance increase from the robe.

Edited November 30, 2009 by Narga_Rocks