OMG it's a tier list

[Anouleth]

Bastian only has one chapter where he's useful: his joining chapter. Even then, look what happens:

As you can see, Bastian is doubled by all of these enemies. His 40% growth might help him avoid the doubling at the least after he nets two levels, but the Ravens seem to double him until Level 13.

Now obviously he's going to be out of base level (even though he's a Tier 3 unit, these are Laguz). He can't double a single unit on the map unless he hits ~28 Spd (to double the Sage and Bishop failures) or 30-31 (to double the Generals). He doesn't even reach 28 Spd until Level 20, so unless you're favoring him with two Speedwings or try to BEXP him (he only caps Skl and Mag at Level 20), then you might as well forget it.

His biggest advantages in Endgame would be 4-E-3 where he can uses Thunder tomes against the Dragons and maybe play as a Healbot. He's got the Mag to do so, but so does Micaiah, and she's forced. I really don't consider ArchSages or Saints to be my top picks here. I think I'd sooner choose Elincia or even Mist (the latter is pretty much outclassed by the former, but she can wield Alondite which already outclasses the ArchSages in 4-E-4 and 5).

So yeah, Bastian just isn't worth it.

And Stefan? Stefan joins late in 4-4 and is massively limited by the desert, so he's unlikely to do anything there. If you do bring Stefan to Endgame, he's not exactly blowing Bastian away - the General swarm have 50HP, 30-32DEF and 23-25RES, so Stefan's base 47ATK with the VK is not 1-rounding. He's 2-rounding... which is ironically exactly the same as Bastian, who at level 13 has 49ATK with Rexcalibur. Even if Bastian doesn't 2HKO, he can set up a kill for another unit such as Micaiah, Sanaki or Sothe. Stefan has 20% crit and an 18% chance to Astra, but it's not all that reliable. Stefan is also beating out Bastian in durability, since Stefan is getting 2/3HKOed at 30-50 display hit, while Bastian is just getting 2HKOed, but Bastian can attack at range, and doesn't even need to attack every turn since he may be healing.

4-E-2 is short, but Bastian can help range-bomb Levail I guess. Although Stefan wins against every other enemy.

4-E-3 is a clear win for Bastian, since he can 1-round the Red Dragons with a Thunder forge. While Stefan can 1-round the Whites with the Wyrmslayer and 2-round the Reds, the Wyrmslayer is only a 1-range weapon. In addition, Stefan's durability is pretty suspect here - both Whites and Reds 2HKO him at 60-70 display hit. Bastian's durability isn't much better, but Bastian can at least hang back and spam Physic, and is getting 3HKOed by the Whites. Physic here is actually quite helpful, since lots of people will be taking damage.

4-E-4 is a win for Stefan. Bastian might be able to 1-round the Thunder Spirits with Meteor if he got to 27AS (level 17/18), but it's not really very likely. 4-E-5 is more of the same - Stefan can grab Parity to double the auras and Bastian barely does any damage to them. I don't know if ~20 damage is enough to set up a kill for Cain or Tibarn.

I'm not going to suggest Bastian > Stefan, but I'm not seeing how there's a whole tier between the two. I think Stefan needs to go down.

[Interceptor]

I'd like someone who supports Mia to jump in on this (aka Narga or Interceptor) because I'm really starting to think she needs to go down.

Sorry, but I'm tired of repeating myself on this point. I've generated enough text on Mia to fill a small novel on her. If Titania moves up because of persistence, good for her.

[Florete]

Sorry, but I'm tired of repeating myself on this point. I've generated enough text on Mia to fill a small novel on her. If Titania moves up because of persistence, good for her.

Can't you, at the very least, point me to this novel, or re-post it? We can't shut out the people who didn't see it before and don't agree now just because "it's already been said."

Will get to the Stefan and Bastian stuff later.

[-Cynthia-]

I've pretty much always been for Titania>Mia, for a variety of reasons.

On the subject of Bastian, he probably isn't worse than Vika. I don't think Vika chipping and consuming Olivi Grass in 3 Part 1 chapters is quite as good as Bastian possibly ORKOing and healing in 3 Part 4 chapters. I used to think Vika was fairly essential for the 1-8 prisoners, but I think that was refuted somewhere.

Edited February 16, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Ether]

Uhh...Mia vs. People was around the area of pages 130-150 or so.

[Narga_Rocks]

Sorry, I don't really have the time right now for 2 hour posts. 1 hr max right now, generally a lot less. The posts I made that took Mia above Gatrie and later above Titania took a really long time, and so would responding to Colonel M. I might have time on Saturday or Sunday, though. I'm tempted to use old posts to answer his concerns, though, rather than create new content. Mia's been debated off and on for a long time, there is lots in the archives.

[Florete]

I'm tempted to use old posts to answer his concerns, though, rather than create new content. Mia's been debated off and on for a long time, there is lots in the archives.

That's fine for now. I just want to remember exactly what it was that made Mia > Titania in the first place. I'm not on the brink of making the move either because the opposition is mostly simple things like "move, 1-2 range, durability" at the moment, and that alone isn't very convincing either.

[Fayt Zelpher]

Uhh...Mia vs. People was around the area of pages 130-150 or so.

I went back and I think it starts around post 2810 or so if anyone is still searching. Does this help?

[Colonel M]

I'd at least like to see how it happened. Then I can address the points further if necessary.

[Florete]

Base level Bastian:

45HP 21STR 35MAG 27SKL 24SPD 21LUK 20DEF 32RES

W/Bolganone (effective) has 68mt, OHKOes all but the strongest Tigers.

W/Rexcalibur (effective) has 74mt, OHKOes all Hawks and Ravens.

W/Bolting (effective) has 53mt, ORKOes all but 1 Dragon.

Good luck getting a Bolting. The other two are mostly fine, but then you have the durability problem Colonel M pointed out. Bastian is likely only killing one enemy per turn and this is a kill boss chapter, so he arguably isn't doing anything to help completion of the map. While Stefan can't do much in 4-3, it's Rout, so any enemy he kills is helping towards map completion.

If you do bring Stefan to Endgame, he's not exactly blowing Bastian away - the General swarm have 50HP, 30-32DEF and 23-25RES, so Stefan's base 47ATK with the VK is not 1-rounding. He's 2-rounding... which is ironically exactly the same as Bastian, who at level 13 has 49ATK with Rexcalibur.

Rexcalibur is 15 uses, Vague Katti is 50, and doubling gives Stefan reasonable chances of activating crit/Astra. Stefan also creams Bastian in durability, allowing him to have an enemy phase.

4x Axe Gen lvl 14 (Silver Axe)
50 hp, 45 atk, 25 AS, 155 hit, 76 avo, 30 def, 23 res, 15 crit, 26 cev

2HKOs Bastian, 3HKOs Stefan. 71 displayed on Bastian, 48 on Stefan. Massive.

Stefan has 20% crit and an 18% chance to Astra, but it's not all that reliable.

"Not all that reliable?" With Vague Katti, he has 17% crit and 18% Astra. This gives him ~54% chance to activate one whenever he doubles, which is everything. That's more than half the enemies. Bastian's got 27% Flare, which won't even kill on its own.

4-E-3 is a clear win for Bastian, since he can 1-round the Red Dragons with a Thunder forge. While Stefan can 1-round the Whites with the Wyrmslayer and 2-round the Reds, the Wyrmslayer is only a 1-range weapon. In addition, Stefan's durability is pretty suspect here - both Whites and Reds 2HKO him at 60-70 display hit. Bastian's durability isn't much better, but Bastian can at least hang back and spam Physic, and is getting 3HKOed by the Whites. Physic here is actually quite helpful, since lots of people will be taking damage.

These guys have even worse crit evade, making Stefan's activation chances even higher. And having 1-2 range is not very special when you don't want him attacked by the guys he can kill anyway. I'd call this one more a tie than anything, since there are tiles and Kurth to help both.

The comparison is closer than I expected to be honest. I think it's more likely Bastian will go up than Stefan down, though.

On the subject of Bastian, he probably isn't worse than Vika. I don't think Vika chipping and consuming Olivi Grass in 3 Part 1 chapters is quite as good as Bastian possibly ORKOing and healing in 3 Part 4 chapters. I used to think Vika was fairly essential for the 1-8 prisoners, but I think that was refuted somewhere.

Possible. I don't really have much on that right now, but Vika can actually transform pretty fast with the Bandits iirc.

[Inui]

I'm certainly in the camp of Titania > Mia, and I don't hate Mia in this game like I do in FE 9.

[Interceptor]

I am in agreement that Mia is overrated and Titania is underrated.

I'm certainly in the camp of Titania > Mia, and I don't hate Mia in this game like I do in FE 9.

Looking forward to Part 3 of this continuing saga, where you find yet another way to say the exact same thing whilst providing no nutrients for us whatsoever.

Can't you, at the very least, point me to this novel, or re-post it? We can't shut out the people who didn't see it before and don't agree now just because "it's already been said."

And I wouldn't expect you to shut them out, either. A strength of FEG that's missing here, unfortunately, is the ability to point to a specific argument.

The problem with Mia is that her justification is complicated because it involves supports, Adept, and/or forges, and any one of those specific topics is fodder for a giant tl;dr or three. Making things worse is that Titania is a bread-and-butter Speedwing candidate rather than a skill/forge beast; they have next to nothing for overlap in terms of what resources they'll be using to perform optimally in their armies, not even support partners, so a straight combat comparison is very tricky.

And then, because that's not enough, both units are so good that they are almost auto-deploys for each other. This is not like comparing Oscar and Nephenee, where Oscar possibly/probably doesn't have Nephenee deployed, and vice-versa. In that situation, if you give Adept or something to Nephenee you can point out that Oscar can give Adept to anyone else he wants, which necessarily impacts the comparison. But when it comes to Titania and Mia, they are probably going to be using each other anyway: they are each more or less the best recipients of what they are looking for, and highly effective units for game completion. Mia has the option of putting the Speedwing anywhere in her army, but the fact of the matter is that Mia's not going to want to do anything else with it than to just deploy Titania and give it to her, because the next-best person for it (Haar) already has one, and everyone else who wants it is meh-sauce.

So past all of that, it's very easy to make an argument for Titania that is superficially good-looking but ignores some major point or another, because they are so different as units. Mia has no answer to 9MV and Canto and strong Part 3 combat at 1-2 range, but Titania has no answer to Mia's SPD, proc rates, mid-to-lategame durability, etc.

The point that I am making is that this match-up is a tangled web of Whiskey Tango Foxtrot. I know that some people are tempted to take the Alexandrian approach to this problem, but I think that pithy arguments are not equal to the task in this case.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Interceptor

[-Cynthia-]

Just a note on Titania's durability, while not matching Mia's absurdly low hit rates with an Earth support, the additonal boost + her Light affinity makes her fairly unstoppable as well. Titania/Oscar also works well as a support pairing due to Mov (can bith move ahead, both have to stay behind due to terrain), though Oscar might want an Atk boosting affinity instead and he's not as likely to be in play as Ike is.

[Colonel M]

Hm... wonder how Nephenee got over Oscar.

I'll post something about this later. Seems a little weird at a glance, but maybe I'll find the reason.

[Florete]

Hm... wonder how Nephenee got over Oscar.

I'll post something about this later. Seems a little weird at a glance, but maybe I'll find the reason.

Not saying I can't see Oscar > Nephenee myself, but part of it likely has to do with a higher Spd cap (24 runs into issues) and more crit. Of course, Oscar has Earth, Canto, more move, etc. so I expect it to be close.

[Interceptor]

Just a note on Titania's durability, while not matching Mia's absurdly low hit rates with an Earth support, the additonal boost + her Light affinity makes her fairly unstoppable as well. Titania/Oscar also works well as a support pairing due to Mov (can bith move ahead, both have to stay behind due to terrain), though Oscar might want an Atk boosting affinity instead and he's not as likely to be in play as Ike is.

This is true, TitaniaxOscar is good for the both of them in terms of durability. But, as you said, this requires that you deploy Oscar, and it also handicaps Oscar's offense pretty thoroughly, two things that Mia's army does not have to put up with (and it's not highly likely that it would want to).

Honestly, as strange as it sounds, I would put Mist with Titania. Mist is essential for efficiency as an early healer, the support with Titania builds lightning-fast, and getting +DEF mirrored back means that Titania's concrete durability more resembles that of Ike/Shinon/Gatrie... there's no way that her DEF is going anywhere before promotion with her glacial leveling speed and 20% growth. She also gets +mt, which is useful since her STR caps pretty much instantly. Mist and Titania are also forced on the same route in Part 4, which is terribly convenient. The downside is being leashed to a 7MV unit until Mist promotes in Part 4, and having to use Rhys/Mist more judiciously as healers in order to keep the support active for Titania.

Not saying I can't see Oscar > Nephenee myself, but part of it likely has to do with a higher Spd cap (24 runs into issues) and more crit. Of course, Oscar has Earth, Canto, more move, etc. so I expect it to be close.

Not to mention how the difference in their offense turns into a blowout in tier 3, with Impale being a damn sight better than Sol, Nephenee able to double almost everything, and a 34 SPD cap being perfect for Endgame performance.

Oscar's basic issue is his high base level giving him early problems (levels up slowly), his inadequate tier 2 SPD cap, his mount getting in the way sometimes despite Canto being pretty nice, and under-par STR/DEF. Nephenee's basic problems are being frail for a melee, having a bad affinity, and having low STR. I think that Neph's issues are a bit easier to deal with than Oscar's, particularly since is adept at slow-playing BEXP to shore up her two major weaknesses in tier 2. The nature of Oscar's issues are such that you can really only attack it from the standpoint of fixing his STR, or crowning him to bypass that cap (which, incidentally, can screw over his STR if you jump the gun).

Edited February 17, 2010 by Interceptor

[grandjackal]

Just to address a minor point.

Honestly, as strange as it sounds, I would put Mist with Titania. Mist is essential for efficiency as an early healer, the support with Titania builds lightning-fast, and getting +DEF mirrored back means that Titania's concrete durability more resembles that of Ike/Shinon/Gatrie... there's no way that her DEF is going anywhere before promotion with her glacial leveling speed and 20% growth. She also gets +mt, which is useful since her STR caps pretty much instantly. Mist and Titania are also forced on the same route in Part 4, which is terribly convenient. The downside is being leashed to a 7MV unit until Mist promotes in Part 4, and having to use Rhys/Mist more judiciously as healers in order to keep the support active for Titania.

While it's true the move teathering is a problem, I have to say that canto can help mitigate this, since I've been punched in the face many a time by this argument. Furthermore, Titania's rescuing can help bring Mist up to the front lines on some chapters (the cliff face where Ranulf joins comes to mind), and rescue basically hyperspeeds support pace.

Pretty clever idea, really. By part 4, you can Holy Crown Mist possibly to give her a horse, so that is no longer necessary. They play their part in Part 4, and both aren't likely to be used endgame anyways.

Probably the only thing I see getting in the way is that while Mia doesn't start as good as Titania, you're gonna be using both anyways, and Mia usually stays with the team while Titania gets dumped by endgame. Like, it's saying Mia is a worthwhile investment, as good as Titania is up until endgame.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[Anouleth]

I think that Endgame is the tie-breaker here. Both are clearly very good in their own way during Part 3, but Mia has the stronger Part 4 and Endgame.

[grandjackal]

What exactly is keeping Vika below Danved? What exactly does Danved contribute towads efficiency to compared to Vika's flying utlity? 3-9? I'd take Vika flying about the swamps than Danved being semi-useful in 3-9 any day.

[grandjackal]

EDIT: Aw crap, skipped right over the fact it was me who posted last. Sorry about the double-post, slip up on my part.

Either Sothe rises to Volug's level, or Volug drops to Sothe's.

Considering Volug's Wildheart leveling in part 1 and only 3 chapters in part 3 (as rich the exp Laguz give), I honestly could not see him gaining more than 5 levels. By part 4, Sothe could be about level 9 (existed longer in part 1, had higher exp gains in part 1, everyone seems to admit Sothe's more badass part 1, stealing helps pep his exp part 1 despite his high level, possible Paragon), where he could be a bit BEXPd for +2 Speed, Luck and +1 HP and Res. Should keep him stable for 4-P, and forced promotion after gaining some levels in 4-P he should be well enough. Not fantastic, but

Basically what I'm saying is that Volug's part 4 is barely any better than Sothe's, and Sothe's is far easier to fix. Not to mention desert goodies and the fact that he's forced the entire game where Volug is not, I do have my doubts.

A rebuttal to part 4 performance.

Don't forget Volug's Earth affinity, that helps his part 4 a lot. Not only his own durability, but whoever he supports will have a much easier time being used. I personally love JillxVolug in the desert. Sothe only has Wind, which really kind of sucks.

The response

Yet you must admit that an all flier team would do better than Jill and Volug thrown in there. 4-P is by no means a challenge, and neither is the desert outside of the damned move penalty. Miccy, Sothe, Tanith, Sigrun and Sanaki are forced, we got Naesala, Haar, the hawks, and a couple laguz who have no problem surviving who don't care about exp cause they're gonna get dropped anyways by endgame (Ranulf, Mordecai). This is 11 slots that seem perfect. Jill you think would want to join, but Miccy's path is exp poor, and Jill needs what she can get. I can only assume she joins Ike or Tibarn's route, where the leadership starts make the Earth support seem sort of redundant, along with having teams that also are not exactly having trouble getting by. Sothe being forced by virtue is an advantage he holds over Volug that puts him in trouble.

As for that Wind, yes wind sucks, but he's got auto Miccy which gives him 15 avoid (not great, but helpful. Certainly a bit more useful once Ike takes control in Endgame), and it helps him with one of his problems in endgame-Strength. To do a comparison.

12*2/2 Sothe-43.3 HP, 24.6 Str, 10.2 Mag (Imbue, for what it's worth), 28.8 Skill, 28.95 Speed, 24.15 Luck, 18.2 Def, 17.3 Res

Baselard might-42.6+2. Subtract for Peshkatz. 14+10 Crit (Miccy bondage). 83+15 avoid before leadership. Bane, for what it's worth.

That is assuming he got 1 level in 4-P and 1 in the desert.

25 Volug (10 levels in basically 5 chapters, and part 1 of gaining nothing but 1 EXP from everything).

58.5 HP, 13.5 Str, 3.5 Mag, 15.5 Skill, 17 Speed, 22 Luck, 10.5 Def, 6 Res

SS Strike might-45. 15 crit, 90+36 avoid before leadership. No mastery

Durability is certainly in Volug's favor, but if Sothe's not killing anything than neither is Volug. Sothe's forced and at least has a crit advantage+Bane. He's also got a ranged option for countering ranged, like the dragons (speaking of Bane...), or snipers.

Again, all this amounts to the fact that Sothe's forced and Volug is not. If his offense is no better than Sothe's (who's offense sucks), why is Volug given a free pass?

This was using quite the inflated levels for Volug, and ignores the fact that even at this point, Sothe's leveling faster (Sothe's basically 20/20/2, Volug's 20/20/10), so Sothe's more than able to quickly match up. Don't even give me guff on weapon rank, arms scrolls are not only littered throughout the game, but money is the last problem on earth by endgame.

So now considering that Volug part 4 is basically a less flimsy Sothe who's problems are harder to fix, has no ranged option, isn't forced, doesn't have a mastery (as minor a point as Bane can be) and doesn't have magic thief powers in the desert, and if we're all in agreement that Sothe's part 1 is of more emphasis than Volug's, that leaves part 3.

I'll save time and tell you it's basically ranged option and beastslayer daggar versus superior but having to deal with a gauge. First off, that means the first two turns, Sothe's not stupidly useless where Volug is. Secondly, having to maintain a gauge does hurt his durability in a very sneaky fashion, in that every turn smoking grass is a turn not spent using a healing item to heal himself. He must either sacrifice losing his gauge to heal, or leash a healer to him which endangers the healer unless he does what everyone else is doing-wall up. If he walls up, this is more a problem for him than anyone else. Why? Because the healer has to heal him, and in return he's not finishing something off but rather he's taking grass. This means the enemy gets a few free shots, and the healer has to do this again. Anyone else can get healed and finish an enemy off because they don't have to worry about becoming suddenly useless. Sothe in fact is nearly the complete opposite in this sense. If he's walling up and gets severely injured, he can retreat back and still be offensively helpful through knives, which means he is able to wait for his healer to heal him at a more opportune time.

So while his part 3 is "superior", it requires more maintenence than Sothe's does.

I'll admit the part 3 summary is vague, and my arguments may be a bit too general, but I feel these two perform a bit too closely to be considered a tier apart. Get them smoking hotties closer.

Oh, and Sothe nabs the Brave Bow in 3-6

Edited February 19, 2010 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[Florete]

What exactly is keeping Vika below Danved? What exactly does Danved contribute towads efficiency to compared to Vika's flying utlity? 3-9? I'd take Vika flying about the swamps than Danved being semi-useful in 3-9 any day.

Well, Danved can be semi-useful from 3-11 on. He's not amazing, but he isn't exactly terrible. All Vika really has is chip in part 1 and possibly saving a Prisoner or two in the swamp.

For the Sothe vs Volug thing: I might respond to some later, but for now, I'm neither here nor there.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Red Fox of Fire

[-Cynthia-]

IMO, if anything should be done regarding Volug/Sothe, Volug should move down to High. He's good for some Part 1 chapters, falls off near the end, then is very good in Part 3. Volug's Part 4 is subpar like Sothe's. I'm not seeing what puts Volug in Top.

[grandjackal]

I would prefer Sothe went up, since he is basically Volug useful in combat (range and auto-support+forge versus greater durability to go with transformation issues) with thief utility, easier to BEXP while being forced. After all, in other part 4 teams, his durability is pretty decent, just he might not be offensively par with everyone.

That is unless Volug getting barred out of Endgame has any bearing on the measurement...Which case, it could be possible there is a tier difference between them, but you have their positions backwards (though no way in hell would I say Sothe's better than the transfer titans).

..They should still generally be close by though, like I don't think a single unit should seperate these two.

[Anouleth]

Well, Danved can be semi-useful from 3-11 on. He's not amazing, but he isn't exactly terrible.

You don't think Danved is pretty amazing?

;_;

[Colonel M]

You don't think Danved is pretty amazing?

;_;

HOW CAN YOU THINK DANVED SUCKS HE FIGHTS LIKE 10 MEN COME ON MAN!!!111!!!

Actually... he doesn't look that bad to be honest. Level 9, so he's going to get a lot of levels. I guess he's still pretty scrubby, but not as bad as I thought.

Also I'd drop Volug sooner than raise Sothe.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Colonel M