OMG it's a tier list

[Fayt Zelpher]

@Narga_Rocks: You forget that Elincia at level 14 has ~72.4% chance of killing a general due to stun activation and quadding. With red dragons, she's not getting the kill, but she can easily count on ~75% chance of getting the whites. Lets not leave the mastery skill, especially since Elincia gets so many chances to use it.

[Narga_Rocks]

??

Also, level 14 Elincia has 27 or 28 skill, so 4 shots at Stun means 71.601759% ORKO with 27 skill and 73.126144% ORKO with 28 skill. You could even toss Adept her way if you wanted to make things truly crazy, but Adept can get lots of units to >80% on these Generals. Elincia with 28 skill and 31 AS has 93.90847054311424% ORKO of Generals, so the significance of the difference between that and 80% is subjective.

I didn't bring up masteries on dragons because Tibarn at base has 64% tear, so Elincia's Stun chance in 4 hits isn't all that much better. Also, she ORKOs whites anyway, as I mentioned. However, 45 mt against 38 def Red Dragons with 75 to 77 hp means that she takes 11 hits to kill them. Well, many have 36 def so 9 damage "only" takes 9 hits to kill them. 11 hits means she needs 4 stuns and 9 hits means she needs 3 stuns. I suppose Stun + Cancel and Amiti give a huge % chance (over 70 with Amiti) to make the dragon do nothing to her and if she stuns she allows you to either ignore it or have someone kill it without a counter, but Tibarn OHKOs with Tear (36 * 3 + 20 = 128, 128 - 38 = 90, so even on a cover tile Tear will OHKO). Still, she has the advantage on Whites.

[grandjackal]

Couldn't you also just give Tibarn Adept to further increase his chances?

[Narga_Rocks]

Couldn't you also just give Tibarn Adept to further increase his chances?

She still has a lead on him on Whites. ORKOing > 99%, even if only barely. However, it would possibly allow him to win overall.

He is, of course, not 3HKOing Reds ever. He starts at 56 mt, and is unlikely to get past 20str, so 61 mt with a +mt support means 25 damage to 36 def Reds. He can only 3HKO 75hp/36 def Reds. Adept allows an extra shot at Tear, though, assuming Tear can proc on the Adept hit. He had a lead on reds anyway.

As for generals, when he needs Adept to ORKO he has 64% Tear and 64% Adept, so 1 - (.36 x .36) = 87.04%, which is still lower than Elincia's proc rate assuming Tear + Adept at level 14 (whether she has 27 skill or 28 skill). At least, provided she 5HKOs, which should happen at level 14 as long as the thing isn't on cover. Oh, against those 8 guys on cover tiles Tibarn has a massive lead since Tear still OHKOs easily and Elincia does 4 damage even at max str with no support. The cover tile ones I think all have 31 def or more, so 41 def means 4 damage. 5 with support. 11HKO since they should have 51 hp, needs 4 stuns.

[Anouleth]

It also depends somewhat on 2-E - if we go for the 1-turn there, then Elincia misses out on a level or two of exp and a ton of utility, since her performance in 2-E is so ridiculously good (she flies, she heals, she kills everything, usually without even taking a counter, she has arguably better durability than Haar).

Although I suppose this is an efficiency list, and those 1-turns are so cheap to pull off, it should probably be assumed they will be.

[NinjaMonkey]

Although I suppose this is an efficiency list, and those 1-turns are so cheap to pull off, it should probably be assumed they will be.

But there isn't any turn bonus for 2-E, though!

[nflchamp]

It also depends somewhat on 2-E - if we go for the 1-turn there, then Elincia misses out on a level or two of exp and a ton of utility, since her performance in 2-E is so ridiculously good (she flies, she heals, she kills everything, usually without even taking a counter, she has arguably better durability than Haar).

Although I suppose this is an efficiency list, and those 1-turns are so cheap to pull off, it should probably be assumed they will be.

Only cheap until you consider the Part 3 losses (items/EXP). Not so clear after that.

[tehnikhil]

I think I will still argue Leo<Neal since that seems pretty wrong in my opinion. Although, I dunno how to weigh Leo's hard-to-earn potential (double bow).

Neal is kinda like a Jagen with an iron sword--he is going to weak enemies to their last drop of life and allow others to one shot them. I am going to only really talk abotu his part 2 performance and assume he is dropped in part 4 for now. In 2-P, he is beating those dracos up. I forgot the exact numbers as to whether marcia/Elincia can finish what he starts on enemies, but I am pretty sure they can thanks to Neal's awesomeness. So, you get to help them train in this. In this chapter, he is very essential for fighting baddies until Haar shows up to rapestomp the level for you. But, even with Haar there, it doesn't stop Neal from being a good fighter that can be used even after recruitment. 2-2, you have Neph, with great potential and all. Neal is perfect for helping train her since she has a very slow start. Also, this chapter is a 7 turn rush in FOW, and the fact that he doesn't have to worry as much about running into the middle of mobs helps rush this chapter. You can get Brom some nice kills too. 2-E, he is a flier, which helps him since he can attack guys, and canto to safety from the crossbows (although I think he may have an okay dodge rate against them, but don't hold me to the argument). You are going to be using everyone here, and he is a great help to clear out the light/medium units (warriors, halbs, swordmasters).

Not only that, but there is no reason not to deploy him in any of his chapters.

Leo isn't fighting for spots in his first 5 chapters IIRC.

1-P, Ed and Mickey shoudl be mostly done by the time he comes. He may do some minor damage, but he probably isn't helping people train or speeding up the chapter.

I am not 100% sure about this, but I am pretty sure that Mickey's magic>Leo's bows. So, in 1-1, with the tight chokepoint, you are going to have nolan on the front and mickey sniping in the back. Leo probably won't find much use here.

1-2, he may find some use, but I am not sure about how many places he can be in the Mickey can't be in, and where both of them are necessary to be in separate places. If some ways are argued, I will see if I can counter them.

1-3, I will concede that he may find some use with helping guys like nolan train by hurting them while nolan finishes. But, it isn't necessarily like he must be the one to do so. You get Illy at this chapter, and Ed has a wind sword, so this means that you have 3 other guys with backline potential (although mostly the mages).

1-4, I dunno if he will be able to impact the chapter since if he hurts stray laguz that aren't attackign, they will run to a heal jar, and most likely, the 3 chokepoints for backlines will be taken by Mickey, Illy, and Laura. I haven't played in a while and I dunno if I am hazy on the chapter, but Leo seems to be a bit outdamaged or have less util than the other 3 magic girls.

Dunno how to weigh Jagens vs Future potential guys, so if that wants to be argued I guess I will see what I can do.

[grandjackal]

I think I will still argue Leo<Neal since that seems pretty wrong in my opinion. Although, I dunno how to weigh Leo's hard-to-earn potential (double bow).

Not sure why you would, considering there's a good chance he's not seeing part 4, much less Endgame to get the double bow.

Neal is kinda like a Jagen with an iron sword--he is going to weak enemies to their last drop of life and allow others to one shot them. I am going to only really talk abotu his part 2 performance and assume he is dropped in part 4 for now. In 2-P, he is beating those dracos up. I forgot the exact numbers as to whether marcia/Elincia can finish what he starts on enemies, but I am pretty sure they can thanks to Neal's awesomeness. So, you get to help them train in this. In this chapter, he is very essential for fighting baddies until Haar shows up to rapestomp the level for you. But, even with Haar there, it doesn't stop Neal from being a good fighter that can be used even after recruitment.

It doesn't stop the fact that Neal doesn't help 2-P's speed at all. All he's really doing is helping Marcia level, since you could basically just sit back and wait for Haar to show up and not even bother.

Neal also can't get you the short axe from the boss.

2-2, you have Neph, with great potential and all. Neal is perfect for helping train her since she has a very slow start. Also, this chapter is a 7 turn rush in FOW, and the fact that he doesn't have to worry as much about running into the middle of mobs helps rush this chapter. You can get Brom some nice kills too.

Offensively and concrete durably though, Lethe compares pretty tightly with the old bird, save the lone crossbow dude. As this is a short map, Lethe's shitty cat gauge is not as big an issue as Neal's, as it takes forever to fill Neal's gauge in comparison. Looking at stats for 2-2, Mordy transformed is at least doing 21 damage (this is to an armor knight, which Neal fails to match by 1 damage even when his doubling's considered), and can ORKO the lvl 18 sword armor with the steel blade, otherwise he's reducing anyone to single digit health. Then there's Lucia, and I don't think I quite need to explain her advantages. I'd say Neal's psychotic dodge is an advantage, if dying were actually a problem. Only people durably worried are Heather, Leanne and Nephenee, H and N having ranged options, Leanna not being a combat unit to begin with.

It's not to say Neal sucks, but he's a lot closer to the team at hand than what you would describe, and there's plenty others who can get Neph and Brom what they need for a better future performance.

2-E, he is a flier, which helps him since he can attack guys, and canto to safety from the crossbows (although I think he may have an okay dodge rate against them, but don't hold me to the argument). You are going to be using everyone here, and he is a great help to clear out the light/medium units (warriors, halbs, swordmasters).

I suppose I can't quite see an inaccuracy here, other than question the halbs, as some of them he doesn't reduce below 15 HP.

Not only that, but there is no reason not to deploy him in any of his chapters.

Not that we have a choice.

.

I am not 100% sure about this, but I am pretty sure that Mickey's magic>Leo's bows. So, in 1-1, with the tight chokepoint, you are going to have nolan on the front and mickey sniping in the back. Leo probably won't find much use here.

Miccy's also got sacrifice, for what it's worth.

1-2, he may find some use, but I am not sure about how many places he can be in the Mickey can't be in, and where both of them are necessary to be in separate places. If some ways are argued, I will see if I can counter them.

He basically plays the roll of third wheel chipper.

1-3, I will concede that he may find some use with helping guys like nolan train by hurting them while nolan finishes. But, it isn't necessarily like he must be the one to do so. You get Illy at this chapter, and Ed has a wind sword, so this means that you have 3 other guys with backline potential (although mostly the mages).

I'd argue that Illyana and Eddie got better things to do this chapter, so Leo with the main team could probably get his own worth's in. Problem is, just how much of his damage is satisfactory? Helping Nolan avoid counters on less defense heavy enemies is nice, but that's not exactly a lot on this map, which is soldier heavy down the left side.

At least he could be a spare shover.

1-4, I dunno if he will be able to impact the chapter since if he hurts stray laguz that aren't attackign, they will run to a heal jar, and most likely, the 3 chokepoints for backlines will be taken by Mickey, Illy, and Laura. I haven't played in a while and I dunno if I am hazy on the chapter, but Leo seems to be a bit outdamaged or have less util than the other 3 magic girls.

By now, he could probably use the steel bow. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say he's level 7. That's 18 damage+1 with a support (I'd imagine with Laura, as I can't imagine why Nolan wouldn't want accuracy help form Eddie), which is 9 damage to tigers and 11 damage to cats (which is basically a 4RKO). It's small, but the fact that he's chipping at ranged combat helps, since it takes quite a bit to fell these things quickly. Just being a chipper that can do moderate damage I feel is good enough.

Dunno how to weigh Jagens vs Future potential guys, so if that wants to be argued I guess I will see what I can do.

Leo's not really a future potential guy as his usefulness is more due to his class during his parts than his stats (level 10 Seal, slap beastfoe on him and he's already murdering with a crossbow in the least in 3-6, same with 3-13, except add raven anti-air no matter what along with doing so with ballistae, and Neal's a Jeigen in a sea of Jeigens (Lethe, Mordecai) who almost immediately is outclassed (Haar, Elincia, Mordecai).

It's not to say I couldn't see the possibility of Neal>Leo, just I wanted to clear a few inaccuracies. I'd still say Leo is better because he could shoot at things until he's level 10 (6 levels in basically 10 battles shouldn't be too hard), he's still able to be useful in 3-6 and 3-13. You don't even have to train hm to have him be useful in 3-13 thanks to ballistae (though it certainly helps).

If you could prove Neal could get S strike before part 4, I could see him being quite a bit more useful on Michaiah's route. 3-4HKOs most in 4-P with 20 Str and 12+1 Might (Fire affinity support), has Wrath, and only loses avoid to Naesala by 6 so Wrath while he's transformed would be quite easy to abuse (though it still poses a problem. 30% of 53 HP is 15.9, and a lot of enemies in 4-P can do that to his 20 Def).

Errr, nevermind, rechecking the hit rates, all the enemies at neutral would put coinflips on them both. Neal's still got problems part 4.

Edited February 23, 2010 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[tehnikhil]

It doesn't stop the fact that Neal doesn't help 2-P's speed at all. All he's really doing is helping Marcia level, since you could basically just sit back and wait for Haar to show up and not even bother.

I guess that is true. It is like 3-7, right? Where you can't change the turn count? Either way though, he is a pretty awesome because without him, you have the two weaklings who really can't fight well in this chapter until Haar shows up. That does have to count for something.

Neal also can't get you the short axe from the boss.

I want to know though: when is that short axe really helpful? I actually don't usually use some of the higher caliber weps when I play, but I woudl like to know when Short axe actually can make a bigger impact than hand axe.

Offensively and concrete durably though, Lethe compares pretty tightly with the old bird, save the lone crossbow dude. As this is a short map, Lethe's shitty cat gauge is not as big an issue as Neal's, as it takes forever to fill Neal's gauge in comparison. Looking at stats for 2-2, Mordy transformed is at least doing 21 damage (this is to an armor knight, which Neal fails to match by 1 damage even when his doubling's considered), and can ORKO the lvl 18 sword armor with the steel blade, otherwise he's reducing anyone to single digit health. Then there's Lucia, and I don't think I quite need to explain her advantages. I'd say Neal's psychotic dodge is an advantage, if dying were actually a problem. Only people durably worried are Heather, Leanne and Nephenee, H and N having ranged options, Leanna not being a combat unit to begin with.

Don't Lethe/Mordy have an olivi grass? Is there a problem with him taking one of them?

It's not to say Neal sucks, but he's a lot closer to the team at hand than what you would describe, and there's plenty others who can get Neph and Brom what they need for a better future performance.

I can concede to that being true, but none the less, it still is a chapter where you have to rush to finish in 7 turns, and ever jegian helps.

I suppose I can't quite see an inaccuracy here, other than question the halbs, as some of them he doesn't reduce below 15 HP.

True, but when hurting them, there are many fliers that won't ORKO (Marcia may not), so them workign together may just do the trick. ALso, you have guys like brom who may not double. He can probably finish them now.

Not that we have a choice.

Although I am just saying that there is no opportunity cost to using him.

Miccy's also got sacrifice, for what it's worth.

Just wondering here, is this a reason why Mickey wouldn't be used as the backliner? I am just trying to see if you were just adding info, or if you meant to refute my statement.

He basically plays the roll of third wheel chipper.

Yep, and I am not sure how much a 3rd wheel chipper will be necessary.

I'd argue that Illyana and Eddie got better things to do this chapter, so Leo with the main team could probably get his own worth's in. Problem is, just how much of his damage is satisfactory? Helping Nolan avoid counters on less defense heavy enemies is nice, but that's not exactly a lot on this map, which is soldier heavy down the left side.

What would Illy and Eddie be doing? Also, what abotu Mickey and Laura taking up the spots behind the frontliners.

At least he could be a spare shover.

Although, couldn't neal do the same in 4-P? I forgot the exact deployment, but since you split you party, woudl it be possible that he can potentially be one of your units that is competent enough to be deployed?

By now, he could probably use the steel bow. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say he's level 7. That's 18 damage+1 with a support (I'd imagine with Laura, as I can't imagine why Nolan wouldn't want accuracy help form Eddie), which is 9 damage to tigers and 11 damage to cats (which is basically a 4RKO). It's small, but the fact that he's chipping at ranged combat helps, since it takes quite a bit to fell these things quickly. Just being a chipper that can do moderate damage I feel is good enough.

The thing is that there are 3 chokepoints, so wouldn't there only be 3 spots to fill? And of so, wouldn't Illy, Mickey, and Laura take those spots? Or is there something that I am missing here?

Leo's not really a future potential guy as his usefulness is more due to his class during his parts than his stats (level 10 Seal, slap beastfoe on him and he's already murdering with a crossbow in the least in 3-6, same with 3-13, except add raven anti-air no matter what along with doing so with ballistae, and Neal's a Jeigen in a sea of Jeigens (Lethe, Mordecai) who almost immediately is outclassed (Haar, Elincia, Mordecai).

It's not to say I couldn't see the possibility of Neal>Leo, just I wanted to clear a few inaccuracies. I'd still say Leo is better because he could shoot at things until he's level 10 (6 levels in basically 10 battles shouldn't be too hard), he's still able to be useful in 3-6 and 3-13. You don't even have to train hm to have him be useful in 3-13 thanks to ballistae (though it certainly helps).

Although, in 3-6, wouldn't you rather give cbow and beastfoe to nolan and allow him to murder so he can actually get good exp? Isn't having Leo do it just a waste of exp?

3-13, nolan can do the same thing (on the stairs, stick him in between Zihark and Sothe maybe and have him shoot down on the suckers), and isn't it better if he is the one who gains the quick and easy exp? With the ballista, how much of an impact will he really make versus having your yellows on halt until hawks approach and then having them shoot.

If you could prove Neal could get S strike before part 4, I could see him being quite a bit more useful on Michaiah's route. 3-4HKOs most in 4-P with 20 Str and 12+1 Might (Fire affinity support), has Wrath, and only loses avoid to Naesala by 6 so Wrath while he's transformed would be quite easy to abuse (though it still poses a problem. 30% of 53 HP is 15.9, and a lot of enemies in 4-P can do that to his 20 Def).

Errr, nevermind, rechecking the hit rates, all the enemies at neutral would put coinflips on them both. Neal's still got problems part 4.

Considering how freakishly hard it was for me to get S strike on Neal before part 4 on my laguz PT, I don't think I will make up BS to prove it.

[Interceptor]

Although, in 3-6, wouldn't you rather give cbow and beastfoe to nolan

Argh. I don't understand why people do this. Use Tarvos with Beastfoe. It's better on Enemy Phase because of the +DEF, and still OHKOs everything except like a high-DEF Tiger sitting on a thicket.

[Narga_Rocks]

Argh. I don't understand why people do this. Use Tarvos with Beastfoe. It's better on Enemy Phase because of the +DEF, and still OHKOs everything except like a high-DEF Tiger sitting on a thicket.

Well, I'd give him Tarvos + Bronze Axe, probably. Then observe what is safe to let him use on enemy phase. And yeah, I think on average Nolan comes up 1 short of the most durable tiger on a thicket. Against any other tiger it dies even on a thicket, or you can just not be next to a thicket and even the strongest is OHKOd by Tarvos. If I didn't have to buy the bowgun/crossbow I might even give him Tarvos + Bronze Axe + Bowgun, and if I really really want to reach out and blick something, then use the Crossbow/Bowgun.

Oh, I suppose Bowgun also comes one shy of the most durable tiger on a thicket. But again, ^

[tehnikhil]

Well, either way, it takes up the beastfoe, so Leo can't do his epic damage.

[Interceptor]

Beastfoe is good for untrained Leo, but if you're using him seriously, the most efficient path tends to become "Lughnasadh + Wrath" in this case. It ORKOs often enough that Beastfoe is generally not justified, in my estimation, since nobody else can really do with Wrath what Leo can do.

[tehnikhil]

Although, right now we are debating the idea of using them as utility and dropping them after. Unless you want to bring up the argument that he can become a good and competent fighter easily whose positives o/w negatives of raising him.

[Narga_Rocks]

Beastfoe is good for untrained Leo, but if you're using him seriously, the most efficient path tends to become "Lughnasadh + Wrath" in this case. It ORKOs often enough that Beastfoe is generally not justified, in my estimation, since nobody else can really do with Wrath what Leo can do.

90+% ORKO on tigers and ~68% ORKO on cats is hilarious. Sure, he can't one range them to death but with his durability would you even want to? If I play again I think I might make wrath Leo for that chapter. Well, if not for the whole having to get him to level ~18 in part 1 thing.

But yeah, since tigers are the bigger threat, personally I'll take the 90% ORKO on tigers since it lets me put beastfoe elsewhere (whether to Volug, Jill, or Nolan).

[grandjackal]

I guess that is true. It is like 3-7, right? Where you can't change the turn count? Either way though, he is a pretty awesome because without him, you have the two weaklings who really can't fight well in this chapter until Haar shows up. That does have to count for something.

It depends on how much importance you put on training Elincia and Marcia. I could claim Marcia's of greater benefit, as her getting smacked around allows Elincia to heal with that mend staff. Neal's not as likely, due to his avoid.

Regardless, it doesn't effect anything, as even Haar doesn't get much credit for this map. But hey, once he shows up, he can basically take care of the map by himself. Why make life harder for yourself?

I want to know though: when is that short axe really helpful? I actually don't usually use some of the higher caliber weps when I play, but I woudl like to know when Short axe actually can make a bigger impact than hand axe.

Goes from Harr to Brom/Neph, and it goes from Neph/Brom to the rest of the GM in part 3. It's a spare extra 3 might throwable for the plentiful amount of axers who would love it in part 3.

Like I said, even Haar doesn't get much credit out of it.

Don't Lethe/Mordy have an olivi grass? Is there a problem with him taking one of them?

I'd get similar results out of Lethe, better results out of Mordecai. Not really a big deal if he can or can't.

I can concede to that being true, but none the less, it still is a chapter where you have to rush to finish in 7 turns, and ever jegian helps.

Again, that depends on how much emphasis you put on training Marcia, since it's not like we have a shortage of people to train in 2-2.

True, but when hurting them, there are many fliers that won't ORKO (Marcia may not), so them workign together may just do the trick. ALso, you have guys like brom who may not double. He can probably finish them now.

Well, suppose that's true.

Just wondering here, is this a reason why Mickey wouldn't be used as the backliner? I am just trying to see if you were just adding info, or if you meant to refute my statement.

It's more that it allows her to be more versatile, while Leo's stuck being a backliner. Just pointing out that Leo's the weakest on the team.

Yep, and I am not sure how much a 3rd wheel chipper will be necessary.

Not much, I suppose.

What would Illy and Eddie be doing? Also, what abotu Mickey and Laura taking up the spots behind the frontliners.

I would bring it up what Illyana and Eddie are doing, but not quite yet. I can assure you though, they got other things to do with their time.

That being said, there's plenty of space, and enemy density is low. If the enemy is dead, you can afford at times to let the backliners muck about.

Although, couldn't neal do the same in 4-P? I forgot the exact deployment, but since you split you party, woudl it be possible that he can potentially be one of your units that is competent enough to be deployed?

Unless he gets S rank strike? No. 6 damage a hit ain't cutting it.

The thing is that there are 3 chokepoints, so wouldn't there only be 3 spots to fill? And of so, wouldn't Illy, Mickey, and Laura take those spots? Or is there something that I am missing here?

You assuming we're turtling up in the center? That's quite the hurffadurff move. You look at the map, you realize it's filled with chokeponts. Not only that, the enemy is still spread out thin, and then they have transformation issues which effect quite a few. You'd be surprised how effective going south and splitting hte team up to take the sides is. It's the most effective way to go about getting all the treasure while still completing the map quite quick. That being said, there are plenty of spots to attack from range from still, and any damage done is still helpful on these lively folk.

Although, in 3-6, wouldn't you rather give cbow and beastfoe to nolan and allow him to murder so he can actually get good exp? Isn't having Leo do it just a waste of exp?

I suppose you're right, but he's still capable. As much as it helps Nolan, I'd expect it to cause him a few problems on enemy phase (wheras you were always gonna have Leo in the back regardless).

I also recall Leo able to do something similar with the Brave Bow+Wrath, and getting into Wrath health with aid from Lughnasahd. But aside form tht, he's still always able to be anti-air in 3-13, the hawks being the peskiest of problems.

3-13, nolan can do the same thing (on the stairs, stick him in between Zihark and Sothe maybe and have him shoot down on the suckers), and isn't it better if he is the one who gains the quick and easy exp? With the ballista, how much of an impact will he really make versus having your yellows on halt until hawks approach and then having them shoot.

I'm not sure the AI is always that good,and regardless it gives you another person who's able to do it. It certainly can't hurt your chances.

I suppose though as a survive for # turns map though, it's basically a "get as much EXP as you can" sort of map. Considering Leo's part 4 performance...

Considering how freakishly hard it was for me to get S strike on Neal before part 4 on my laguz PT, I don't think I will make up BS to prove it.

Indeed.

Perhaps I could see it happening. I might need a bit more convincing, but I can see where it comes from. Neal>Leo I mean, not S strike by part 4.

Edited February 24, 2010 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[tehnikhil]

Although the main thing is that even if Neal isn't as helpful as a true jegian is, where would be the key points where Leo does good things that puts him above Neal?

Also, what are the reasons for Tormod to be under Stefan and Volke, yet Lucia to be above them? I guess Tormod is a jegian in a sea of jegians, but so is Lucia, and she only exists for 1 chapter.

Edited February 24, 2010 by tehnikhil

[-Cynthia-]

As you mentioned, Tormod is in a sea of Jeigans, which reduces his impact.

Lucia is a lot more fixable than Tormod is come Part IV. She has good Speed and Earth affinity at least, Tormod is just lolable.

[tehnikhil]

Although how exactly is that earth affinity going to be built up? Plus, aren't most guys 3rd tier by the time she returns? How "fixable" is she that she is better than Stefan, who doesn't need any fixing and is the exact same class? Like you said, being in a sea of Jegians reduces other Jegian's impacts, and she has 3 laguz to be hanging with. I guess she doesn't have a gauge to worry about, but how often will all 3 of them run out of gauges? So, how does she outweigh Stefan's late 4-3 performance and endgame when she is going to probably be just promoted by endgame and not catch up to Stefan?

[Fayt Zelpher]

Although how exactly is that earth affinity going to be built up? Plus, aren't most guys 3rd tier by the time she returns? How "fixable" is she that she is better than Stefan, who doesn't need any fixing and is the exact same class? Like you said, being in a sea of Jegians reduces other Jegian's impacts, and she has 3 laguz to be hanging with. I guess she doesn't have a gauge to worry about, but how often will all 3 of them run out of gauges? So, how does she outweigh Stefan's late 4-3 performance and endgame when she is going to probably be just promoted by endgame and not catch up to Stefan?

She gains far more than she loses by taking a crown the second the player gets to the base in 4-2, meaning that she can easily be 15/5 - 15/7 by then. And she's basically got three more chapters, since Stefan has bad movement in 4-3 and doesn't come until you've basically cleared the map.

Edited February 24, 2010 by Randomly Predictable

[Interceptor]

Generally it's a good idea to support Lucia with Elincia, since the pairing builds points like crazy, Elincia is actually fairly good in Endgame when trained, and they have a really nice +10% crit/avo Bond support.

[-Cynthia-]

Paragon fixes a lot of her problems.

Stefan is better for 4-E, this is true. He doesn't contribute much in 4-3 (he kills like one enemy). However, Stefan has to beat her by a considerable margin to outweigh her 2-2. Let's do a comparison:

20/6 Lucia (C Elincia)

46.5 HP 24 Str 34 AS 19 Def 23.5 Res 95 Avo

20/8 Stefan

53 HP 27 Str 36 AS 21 Def 16 Res 92 Avo

Stefan wins but's it's not by a huge amount. Lucia is arguably more durable because 1/2 of the 4-E(3) and all of the 4-E(4) and 4-E(5) enemies hit Res anyway.

[tehnikhil]

With that 20/6 Lucia, is that assuming you level her to 20? If so, shouldn't it be a 15/6 Lucia instead?

[Narga_Rocks]

With that 20/6 Lucia, is that assuming you level her to 20? If so, shouldn't it be a 15/6 Lucia instead?

??

I'm guessing the last part is if you crown instead of level?

Anyway, she starts at level 14. If you actually choose to level her then 20/5 seems reasonable. 20/6 if you push it. Of course, I'd think this would basically require killing lots of laguz in 4-5, since if you 2 turn 4-5 I'd think 20/1 or 20/2 is more reasonable.