OMG it's a tier list

[-Cynthia-]

Lethe is marginally useful in 2-2.

[Shadow Mir]

Lethe is marginally useful in 2-2.

I know that this might be Your Mileage May Vary, but can we really weigh what Lethe does in one very short chapter as being more than what Sanaki does when she's around? Personally, I can't see it as so.

Edited May 11, 2010 by Richter Lanford

[-Cynthia-]

Sanaki is on a team with Naesala, Skrimir, probably Janaff/Ulki/Haar/Jill etc. Sanaki's potshots are of questionable value when a lot of your team is ORKOing stuff anyway. Lethe's team doesn't ORKO very frequently, Lucia can ORKO some of the weaker enemies with her Silver Sword I guess, but other than that Lethe's offense is pretty comparable to the team.

Plus, apparently there are ways to make Lethe useful for 3-4 and beyond that were discussed earlier not sure about that though.

Edited May 11, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Shadow Mir]

Sanaki is on a team with Naesala, Skrimir, probably Janaff/Ulki/Haar/Jill etc. Sanaki's potshots are of questionable value when a lot of your team is ORKOing stuff anyway. Lethe's team doesn't ORKO very frequently, Lucia can ORKO some of the weaker enemies with her Silver Sword I guess, but other than that Lethe's offense is pretty comparable to the team.

Plus, apparently there are ways to make Lethe useful for 3-4 and beyond that were discussed earlier not sure about that though.

But don't most of the ways to make Lethe useful for 3-4 and beyond also carry huge opportunity costs? Not helping is the fact that in 2-2, you only have 1 pack of olivi grass to go around between 3 laguz, which leads to transformation issues.

Edited May 11, 2010 by Richter Lanford

[Colonel M]

Well, I think it's okay for Renning to drop. He's only good in 4-E-1 and 4-E-3. The former with a Hammer, the latter with a Wyrmslayer. That's about it though. Too slow and costs a slot that is in better hands with other units. Not seeing him over Bastian even.

[grandjackal]

But don't most of the ways to make Lethe useful for 3-4 and beyond also carry huge opportunity costs? Not helping is the fact that in 2-2, you only have 1 pack of olivi grass to go around between 3 laguz, which leads to transformation issues.

Her base 24 AS doubles quite consistantly for when she arrives with the mercs, and I wouldn't mind replacing someone on the team with her since for a while there are quite a few unit slots. Take that uhh...One chapter where you're on the cliff face and have to get Ranulf and Ike to the meeting points. It's a rather large map with a lot of distance to cover. I would claim she has reason above Soren (low move, ballista murders him), Boyd (quickly starting to get outshined, I have noticed she can often do the same damage with her two shots where he does in his one outside of things like armors, having several advantages on him outside of transformation and range option, but Lethe can be dumped eventually whereas Boyd needs investment), even Gatrie (before I get stomped on for this, I have to question bad accuracy meeting bad move for the moments there are no forge access, and even when he does have access the next two maps are huge in proportion which again is bad for his low move, and to get good instantly he needs 5 levels and a crown. He is amazing when he has that, but that's still quite an investment, despite Lethe being statistically inferior to a post-promotion Gatrie, even though she's not necessarily fantastic), at least for that map.

I would say she also has 3-4 basically, and then is dumped when you get the hawks. However, that's just crazy me.

If we're talking long term, all she needs is BEXP for when they do manage to hit 21 AS, of which Speed is one of her BEXP hitters (one of her most likely anyways), she's got a good amount of time to build strike rank, and I could manage to get her some levels naturally without necessarily killing turncounts (though that last bit I KNOW I will get shot down for, but I just thought I'd mention), so I could say she might not even need BEXP.

Her main issue though is her Cat Gauge, which I feel is overblown since here are some free cards you get (like the 15 use cards, as part 3 enemies have more resistance than part 2) that let her build gauge without needing to use Grass which gives us more to work with when it comes to transformation, and there's the revert function since she is able to gain gauge back quicker after a bit of skirmishing than other types of laguz, so the grass issue is not as big a deal as you think.

Then again, I might be a bit biased...

Oh, right, you also forgot 2-E.

I would also agree that Renning is a gimp that the herons shouldn't have bothered healing and go under Bastian due to him actually having a use. A very hilariously minimal forced slot use, but a use nonetheless.

Edited May 11, 2010 by Master Tang

[-Cynthia-]

The amount of Olivi Grass is only an issue if we're not low turning 2-E IMO.

Edited May 11, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Florete]

So 3 for Bastian, 0 for Renning. I guess that means Renning is dropping unless someone has something to say in his defense.

[Silith]

Septimus down to Double Fail. Seriously. he fails in both chapters he's in.

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

Septimus down to Double Fail. Seriously. he fails in both chapters he's in.

I agree, and while we're at it Lekain should be above Hetzel due to being able to actually fight back.

[Zkirsche]

Why is Titania (N) > Gatrie (T)? The transfer gives him more speed and atk than Titania, he was better than her in durability to start with and sometimes her horse even hinders her (3-4, for example.) Gatrie can get celerity for better mov and provoke to pwn every enemy in existance.

I agree, and while we're at it Lekain should be above Hetzel due to being able to actually fight back.

Nah, Hetzel is at least a nice person. Both of them fail at combat anyway.

Edited May 11, 2010 by The Syobon

[Narga_Rocks]

Why is Titania (N) > Gatrie (T)? The transfer gives him more speed and atk than Titania, he was better than her in durability to start with and sometimes her horse even hinders her (3-4, for example.) Gatrie can get celerity for better mov and provoke to pwn every enemy in existance.

Nah, Hetzel is at least a nice person. Both of them fail at combat anyway.

Well, GJ does have concerns about Gatrie's starting speed and yet Gatrie (N) is already this high, so maybe Gatrie (T) could go above Titania (N). But still, we are basically giving Titania one of the two early-game speedwings due to the insanity that this decision causes. However, the durability is a fair point against Titania so maybe it could work.

[Interceptor]

On the subject of Titania's durability -- if I may sabotage this argument even further -- note that all three of Titania's defensive stats (HP, DEF, and RES) benefit immensely from stat boosters, with regard to BEXP abuse. Draco will instantly cap her DEF, Talisman will do the same for RES, and a Seraph Robe immediately puts her 2 points away from her HP cap. The nice thing about this is that you make +SPD on a finished-off BEXP level-up considerably more likely, and this is exactly what the doctor ordered for Titania. Also, unlike doing the same thing for a unit like Lucia, Titania actually gets a concrete benefit from the boosters outside of the BEXP abuse possibilities. It helps that those boosters aren't in high competition, at least not relative to something like a Speedwing. Secret Book is also a fine choice.

Honestly, Titania is like the stat booster queen of the GMs. I took great advantage of this in my efficient playthrough.

[grandjackal]

I feel Gatrie (N) is too high, but the problem is I still feel like I'd have trouble arguing him below people he's currently above. I would say he more belongs in upper mid, but I won't get into it.

Gatrie (T) has the benefit that he only needs 1-2 levels and a crown to become a demigod, and it fixes his move issue pretty quickly so I can at least see how he could be in high due to transfers. Both need a resource, Titania a Wing and possibly the Talisman (which no one cares for anyways), Gatrie the Crown.

However, this is ignoring a basic fact. Even if Gatrie would come out with statistic leads (like in durability), does that mean he's more useful? Not necessarily. Titania still has more move than him just without promoting. Her base level is high enough that she doesn't need a crown to promote within a certain time frame (something that plagues a ton of other units in the game, Gatrie being one of them thanks to his shitty 23 Speed cap). She can rescue almost anyone for transportation (like Gatrie, that is unless he's too much a fatass), such as Ike to points he has to claim or what have you. She can canto, which has it's offensive and defensive uses, and something Gatrie has no answer to.

So even though Gatrie (T) still needs less compared to his neutral version, he still wouldn't be as useful as Titania (N) simply because she is a better class, despite both being combat gods after resources.

[Narga_Rocks]

On the subject of Titania's durability -- if I may sabotage this argument even further -- note that all three of Titania's defensive stats (HP, DEF, and RES) benefit immensely from stat boosters, with regard to BEXP abuse. Draco will instantly cap her DEF, Talisman will do the same for RES, and a Seraph Robe immediately puts her 2 points away from her HP cap. The nice thing about this is that you make +SPD on a finished-off BEXP level-up considerably more likely, and this is exactly what the doctor ordered for Titania. Also, unlike doing the same thing for a unit like Lucia, Titania actually gets a concrete benefit from the boosters outside of the BEXP abuse possibilities. It helps that those boosters aren't in high competition, at least not relative to something like a Speedwing. Secret Book is also a fine choice.

Honestly, Titania is like the stat booster queen of the GMs. I took great advantage of this in my efficient playthrough.

You know I'm perfectly happy dumping stuff on individual characters and all (body ring + speedwing + goddess icon on Miledy) but it just seems funny. But still, I can't think of a better unit to do it for. The other units at the top don't need the boosters and none of the other units are pulling Titania-level offence so Boyd and company aren't getting the things (draco/robe/book/talisman). The units with killer offence are limited and among them I don't think anyone actually benefits from the things. Ike/Haar certainly don't need robe/book/draco, though either would be okay with getting a talisman. Mia just needs Ike and Adept and benefits from Cancel and a forge (mostly for generals). Gatrie just needs a crown. Ike needs bexp and Haar needs a wing (and we have two). Ulki/Janaff need strike and I suppose an energy drop (that the other good units don't use anyway). Ranulf needs to not be a cat.

The only question is perhaps Nephenee, but I suppose there are two dracos. Don't remember about Talismans, though. Oscar needs to take a crown from Gatrie or Haar, which is difficult. Oscar also needs a drop (or two) if you are early-crowning him. shinon needs a time machine before he cares about draco/talisman/robe and his skill is already insane. Boyd needs two wings before he starts doubling much.

Really I guess my only concern with making Titania that stat-boost queen is Nephenee, but she may be fine anyway.

[Shadow Mir]

You know I'm perfectly happy dumping stuff on individual characters and all (body ring + speedwing + goddess icon on Miledy) but it just seems funny. But still, I can't think of a better unit to do it for. The other units at the top don't need the boosters and none of the other units are pulling Titania-level offence so Boyd and company aren't getting the things (draco/robe/book/talisman). The units with killer offence are limited and among them I don't think anyone actually benefits from the things. Ike/Haar certainly don't need robe/book/draco, though either would be okay with getting a talisman. Mia just needs Ike and Adept and benefits from Cancel and a forge (mostly for generals). Gatrie just needs a crown. Ike needs bexp and Haar needs a wing (and we have two). Ulki/Janaff need strike and I suppose an energy drop (that the other good units don't use anyway). Ranulf needs to not be a cat.

The only question is perhaps Nephenee, but I suppose there are two dracos. Don't remember about Talismans, though. Oscar needs to take a crown from Gatrie or Haar, which is difficult. Oscar also needs a drop (or two) if you are early-crowning him. shinon needs a time machine before he cares about draco/talisman/robe and his skill is already insane. Boyd needs two wings before he starts doubling much.

Really I guess my only concern with making Titania that stat-boost queen is Nephenee, but she may be fine anyway.

There's only one talisman in RD - the one from a base conversation in 2-2.

Edited May 11, 2010 by Richter Lanford

[Narga_Rocks]

There's only one talisman in RD - the one from a base conversation in 2-2.

Well, not sure how much Neph gets from it anyway. The thing that worries me is the robe, mostly, but Titania does have much better offence than Neph (assuming wing on Titania). There are two dracos between part 2 and 3 so if I really want one on Neph I can still do so.

[Zkirsche]

What argument are you sabotaging int? I can't read anything about how Titania > Gatrie (T) in your post other than maybe making Gatrie's durabiltiy lead superfluous, unless those stat boosters make her better than Gatrie (which I somehow doubt).

Any thoughts on my offensive and mobility points?

[Narga_Rocks]

What argument are you sabotaging int? I can't read anything about how Titania > Gatrie (T) in your post other than maybe making Gatrie's durabiltiy lead superfluous, unless those stat boosters make her better than Gatrie (which I somehow doubt).

Any thoughts on my offensive and mobility points?

I can't really think of a better user for Celerity, to be honest. Haar can't take Celerity + saviour until he promotes (ferrying being the only real reason to give Celerity to Haar most of the time). Ike probably doesn't need it because on the few seize maps you can just carry him a bit if you really want. 8 move vs 9 move is interesting. They have about the same terrain penalties, though at least Titania can go through 3 thickets. Gatrie levels faster than Titania but wing vs. transfer still means 23 over 22. However, Gatrie has 22 over her 21 in 3-P and 3-1 allowing him to double a bunch of things including Generals which probably makes him better there. Titania may hit 24 before Gatrie promotes but then Gatrie has 25 until Titania hits it with bexp.

Part 4, though, Titania starts with either 27 or 28 and Gatrie starts with ~26. At most times they have around the same offence (ORKO everything but Generals and swordmasters which are 2RKOd by both while needing one hit to finish after the first round) and hand axe forges come before javelin forges anyway so Gatrie and his lances are irrelevant. It's still more move (if only 1) and alternating best offence. I suppose Gatrie's better offence is hand for 3-1, though Titania's better move is handy for 3-P (and it's by 3 at that point).

And Titania's ledge issue actually isn't particularly relevant in 4-4 because it is a rout map and there are things down on the right anyway. Or you could simply rescue.

[Interceptor]

What argument are you sabotaging int? I can't read anything about how Titania > Gatrie (T) in your post other than maybe making Gatrie's durabiltiy lead superfluous, unless those stat boosters make her better than Gatrie (which I somehow doubt).

Everyone's, since I just added a layer of extra complexity.

Although, on the subject, giving Titania the booster for BEXP purposes actually does make Gatrie's durability lead increasingly irrelevant, since it's good enough (particularly once she establishes a support... with anyone at all). I have a pretty dim opinion of units with overkill durability and shitty MV, so you're not going to see me arguing on Gatrie's side any time soon. I wanted him out of Upper Mid because of his early promo potential, but he's no god unit.

[Zkirsche]

He's no god unit, no, but at least celerity can help his move out a bit and with a transfer I do think his offensive capabilities, especially early on, far outweigh Titania's. Provoke + Celerity ftw.

Can Gatrie get a level before 3-2? If not, I'm sure he'll be pretty close and he'll probably get a speed up if he does. If not, unlucky, I guess :/

Also, RFoF, I really wouldn't brag about that link to that encyclopedia. See the discussion page, reminds me of that FEFF discussion you guys had over in your tier list before. Also, many of their advertisements are pornographic.

I did laugh at Inoi's photo and description, though.

[Florete]

Not really sure what to say about this Gatrie stuff for now.

Also, RFoF, I really wouldn't brag about that link to that encyclopedia. See the discussion page, reminds me of that FEFF discussion you guys had over in your tier list before.

That's the point.

Also, many of their advertisements are pornographic.

Didn't see that, gone now. (The link, I mean)

[mai]

Um, sorry if I interrupt any debates you had going on here, but there's something that's been bothering me for a while. I think you guys are overrating Mist. At least, the gap between her and Rhys should close.

At the start of part 3, they're both pretty similar. They get killed by everything, they heal. And they can attack too, but Mist does around 5 damage a hit and doesn't double, so she isn't helping. Rhys, on the other hand, can usually 2HKO. That's pretty good, because no one is one rounding and he can let someone else take the kill. Mist can't even do decent chip damage, and her offense is so poor she usually can't finish off weakened enemies either.

They heal, and Rhys is better at this. He has higher magic, so he's OK even with Heal staves. Mist usually needs Mend. It isn't too big of a problem, because you could give her Rhys' Mend in 3-P, but that's just 20 uses. After that, she'll be costing us more money than Rhys, because Heal staves are cheaper. It's not THAT big of a problem, but it's still an advantage for Rhys.

About their durability, as I've said, they both are getting killed by everything (except for, uh, mages). Mist's better here, though, because she can actually get speed and stop getting doubled, so she's winning. However, neither Rhys nor Mist should be getting attacked anyway, because Rhys will die and Mist will counter for horrible damage. I'd rather let Ike or Titania or someone else get attacked, because they will actually damage the enemy. So Mist's durability win here isn't that awesome.

So, Rhys starts getting worse: his MAG cap is horrible and he isn't going to promote, so that means his biggest win (chip damage) isn't so great anymore. We could give him a forge or something, but it's not worth it.

On the other hand, Mist slowly starts getting better. On a related note, I always wondered how did everyone get Mist to level 20 around chapter 15 in PoR. I always have to burn the Barrier staff and like 14 uses of the Physic staff, plus Mend (since it gives more EXP than Heal), and a lot of BEXP, and even then she doesn't promote until chapter 18 for me. It's pretty much the same in this game, there's no way she's getting to level 20 when Part 4 arrives. So, say she's level 15/1 and has an A Boyd. She will look like this:

HP 35.8

STR 18 (32 ATK with Florete)

MAG 27

SKL 22

SPD 20.2

LCK 28.2

DEF 17.4

RES 32

Come 4-1, she's not killing anything. Not even sages. She's also actually getting doubled by some enemies.

Even if she somehow were level 20 by the time the Holy Crown appears, who cares? She's still not killing, and her durability means she's being 2HKO by a lot of things. She can use 2-range, though. So I guess she's doing more or less the same thing Rhys was doing back in 3-P. The main difference is that, while ORKO-ing was rare there, in part 4 our units are promoted. Sure, they're mostly two rounding, but they have masteries now, which gives them higher chances of killing.

Then there's 4-E, but why would we bring Mist? Her offense is still awful, and her defense is even worse. She can heal, but we have Micaiah, and if we want a healer who can fight, we're bringing Elincia. I guess one more doesn't hurt, but she takes up an unit slot, so that means she's kicking out someone else.

She also heals, but as I've said, her healing is worse than Rhys' at the start. She does win when part 4 comes around, though, since we've probably benched Rhys by then. But healing's all she's got. It is very useful, but is it enough to justify the gap between them, especially when Rhys will be doing it better for a while?

Edited May 15, 2010 by mai

[Shadow Mir]

Um, sorry if I interrupt any debates you had going on here, but there's something that's been bothering me for a while. I think you guys are overrating Mist. At least, the gap between her and Rhys should close.

At the start of part 3, they're both pretty similar. They get killed by everything, they heal. And they can attack too, but Mist does around 5 damage a hit and doesn't double, so she isn't helping. Rhys, on the other hand, can usually 2HKO. That's pretty good, because no one is one rounding and he can let someone else take the kill. Mist can't even do decent chip damage, and her offense is so poor she usually can't finish off weakened enemies either.

They heal, and Rhys is better at this. He has higher magic, so he's OK even with Heal staves. Mist usually needs Mend. It isn't too big of a problem, because you could give her Rhys' Mend in 3-P, but that's just 20 uses. After that, she'll be costing us more money than Rhys, because Heal staves are cheaper. It's not THAT big of a problem, but it's still an advantage for Rhys.

About their durability, as I've said, they both are getting killed by everything (except for, uh, mages). Mist's better here, though, because she can actually get speed and stop getting doubled, so she's winning. However, neither Rhys nor Mist should be getting attacked anyway, because Rhys will die and Mist will counter for horrible damage. I'd rather let Ike or Titania or someone else get attacked, because they will actually damage the enemy. So Mist's durability win here isn't that awesome.

So, Rhys starts getting worse: his MAG cap is horrible and he isn't going to promote, so that means his biggest win (chip damage) isn't so great anymore. We could give him a forge or something, but it's not worth it.

On the other hand, Mist slowly starts getting better. On a related note, I always wondered how did everyone get Mist to level 20 around chapter 15 in PoR. I always have to burn the Barrier staff and like 14 uses of the Physic staff, plus Mend (since it gives more EXP than Heal), and a lot of BEXP, and even then she doesn't promote until chapter 18 for me. It's pretty much the same in this game, there's no way she's getting to level 20 when Part 4 arrives. So, say she's level 15/1 and has an A Boyd. She will look like this:

HP 35.8

STR 18 (32 ATK with Florete)

MAG 27

SKL 22

SPD 20.2

LCK 28.2

DEF 17.4

RES 32

Come 4-1, she's not killing anything. Not even sages. She's also actually getting doubled by some enemies.

Even if she somehow were level 20 by the time the Holy Crown appears, who cares? She's still not killing, and her durability means she's being 2HKO by a lot of things. She can use 2-range, though. So I guess she's doing more or less the same thing Rhys was doing back in 3-P. The main difference is that, while ORKO-ing was rare there, in part 4 our units are promoted. Sure, they're mostly two rounding, but they have masteries now, which gives them higher chances of killing.

Then there's 4-E, but why would we bring Mist? Her offense is still awful, and her defense is even worse. She can heal, but we have Micaiah, and if we want a healer who can fight, we're bringing Elincia. I guess one more doesn't hurt, but she takes up an unit slot, so that means she's kicking out someone else.

She also heals, but as I've said, her healing is worse than Rhys' at the start. She does win when part 4 comes around, though, since we've probably benched Rhys by then. But healing's all she's got. It is very useful, but is it enough to justify the gap between them, especially when Rhys will be doing it better for a while?

First off, Mist has a better affinity than Rhys. Second, Rhys spends pretty much the entire game in fear of getting doubled, something Mist grows out of after a while. And for what it's worth, Mist is easier to shove and has more move, even before promotion. Besides, Recover staves exist, meaning Rhys's Mag lead becomes irrelevant. And Mend staves are only 1k (500 gold with the Silver Card), so Rhys isn't even saving that much.

[Zkirsche]

First off, Mist has a better affinity than Rhys.

Shinon's the only one who'd support her as the others just want to run off somewhere. And shinon probably benefits more from Soren anyway. Tbh, I'd probably just have these two support each other. Maybe the def will help them survive something (cba to find stats atm.)

Rhys spends pretty much the entire game in fear of getting doubled, something Mist grows out of after a while.

He said this, but it appears that it takes her a while to grow out of it:

Come 4-1, she's not killing anything. Not even sages. She's also actually getting doubled by some enemies.

Heck, this also outlines the vast offensive difference between the two. Although, that level was probably a bit harsh, but you didn't contest it, so whatever.

Rhys is like Sanaki, except he can heal people(woot) and has more availability. Mist is like "what if sanaki used swords and healed?".

Edited May 15, 2010 by Kirsche