OMG it's a tier list

[-Cynthia-]

Frankly I think both Mist and Rhys could drop, because healing in the GMs just isn't all that useful (not as much as Laura/Micaiah are to the DB anyway). Even when it would be ueful, there are 8 use vulneraries and 6 use concotions that should heal any GM close to or to full health anyway. Using these items does take a player phase, but it also means we don't constantly have to readjust our movements to protect Mist and Rhys (often if Mist or Rhys wants to heal someone that means they have to get close to combat, which makes them a lot more difficult to protect). Yes, the unit can move back to get healed, but that essentially wastes their player phase anyway.

There is a Physic staff that be shipped over, but it's probably partially used and has to be shared between the two of them, so its uses are limited.

Basically, RD nerfed healers. They have terrible durability, can't counter unless they didn't heal, and units now have a lot of item slots with more effective healing items. This means that Mist and Rhys have a pretty limited influence on turncount IMO, less than people like Geoffrey/Edward etc., who are at least very useful for a chapter or two. I'm not seeing how Mist and Rhys are ever that helpful.

Although I'm not sure why Geoffrey is in Lower Mid anyway. What makes him a tier below Caineghis and Giffca? He's certainly more essential to clearing 2-3 and 3-9 than they are to clearing 4-E (the competition in 4-E is much better). Since these are an equivalent number of chapters, I'm not seeing how he's below them, much less a tier below.

Edited May 15, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Florete]

Shinon's the only one who'd support her as the others just want to run off somewhere. And shinon probably benefits more from Soren anyway. Tbh, I'd probably just have these two support each other. Maybe the def will help them survive something (cba to find stats atm.)

Soren and Shinon are a 04 support type, the slowest kind. They actually lose support points from Shoves. I don't think SorenxShinon is viable.

Frankly I think both Mist and Rhys could drop, because healing in the GMs just isn't all that useful (not as much as Laura/Micaiah are to the DB anyway).

That's why Laura and Micaiah are a tier up. Healing is still useful to the GM's, just not to the same extent.

Using these items does take a player phase, but it also means we don't constantly have to readjust our movements to protect Mist and Rhys (often if Mist or Rhys wants to heal someone that means they have to get close to combat, which makes them a lot more difficult to protect). Yes, the unit can move back to get healed, but that essentially wastes their player phase anyway.

Or Mist/Rhys can heal, then your guy goes and kills something. Or when the enemies are close enough together, it can be easy to make a wall of protection just by killing everything. There are plenty of ways to heal efficiently.

Although I'm not sure why Geoffrey is in Lower Mid anyway. What makes him a tier below Caineghis and Giffca? He's certainly more essential to clearing 2-3 and 3-9 than they are to clearing 4-E (the competition in 4-E is much better). Since these are an equivalent number of chapters, I'm not seeing how he's below them, much less a tier below.

I don't remember the exact argument, but it was basically decided that he really isn't that necessary to clearing his first two maps (2-E excluded), especially 3-9, and sucks too much afterward.

[-Cynthia-]

It certainly is *possible* to clear 2-3 and 3-9 without Geoffrey, just slower and more difficult. Caineghis and Giffca are definitely less useful to clearing 4-E I would say. You already have Nailah/Naesala/Tibarn who are either slightly inferior or arguably better, and you should have at least 7 decent other characters. Even filler units like Volke and Stefan aren't that much worse (they have 1-2 range, and can double auras without Nasir/no transform turn).

Geoffrey sucking for 4-5 and 4-E is somewhat irrelevant, unless you're trying to pull a "forced for all chapters, therefore negative utility for 4-5 and 4-E". Or unless you're saying Cain/Giffca's 4-E> Geoffrey's 2-3 and 3-9, but I'm not seeing how that can be true, since past Kieran it's people like Makalov and Danved and Astrid. And Marcia and Calill who have some more value long term, but at this point are about as useful as Mak/Danved.

In the same line of thinking, Kieran should probably be higher...worse than Skrimir? Again, Kieran's more necessary for 2-3 and 3-9 than Skrimir is for 4-P and 4-3. Skrimir isn't even that good and those chapters, he has gauge and doubling issues snd has to compete with great units like Naesala and probably Haar and the hawks as well. Skrimir is arguably worse in 4-E than Kieran is (Kieran can Hammer generals, Wyrmslayer dragons, and doesn't have transform issues).

Edited May 15, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Ether]

While I'm not sure where Geoffrey should go,I can most certaintly see him moving up to mid atleast.Also,Keiran should be above the lions IMO,both T and Not,because he is almost the same as Geoff in the CRK chapters,and has some part 3 and 4 maps to be semi useful before they even show up,and he can Brave Axe things quite well in 4-E if he is sent there

[Interceptor]

Honestly, I agree that the GM healers are garbage for efficient play. Nothing convinced me more of this fact that my experience with them in my efficient run. Rhys did not go anywhere at all, and Mist was almost a waste of a deployment slot. She was so far behind, in fact, that at the start of 4-1 I couldn't even crown her for the horse since she was still level 9 in tier 2. This was with me shipping over a Physic staff that she barely ever used.

You just don't need healers in the GMs, it's a sad truth. Most of the GMs either never die (Ike, Haar, high level Mia, Gatrie, Ulki, Janaff) or have enough juice to survive on items (low-mid Mia, Titania, Shinon, Boyd).

[-Cynthia-]

Honestly, I agree that the GM healers are garbage for efficient play. Nothing convinced me more of this fact that my experience with them in my efficient run. Rhys did not go anywhere at all, and Mist was almost a waste of a deployment slot. She was so far behind, in fact, that at the start of 4-1 I couldn't even crown her for the horse since she was still level 9 in tier 2. This was with me shipping over a Physic staff that she barely ever used.

The only time I even find the healers marginally useful is 3-P and 3-1, since you have lots of chokepoints to guard them and team durability is relatively low due to no supports/shipments from DB or CRK. After that though, I don't think they're even worth fielding. I'm not even seeing how Mist is better than Tormod for instance, Tormod is once of your best units for 1-7, great in 1-8 (can be Shoved to kill Dracoknights, thus saving Exp), and pretty decent in 1-E. Horrible when he returns in 4-4 of course, but it's not like Mist's combat parameters are going to be very good either.

Edited May 16, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

There are plenty of ways to heal efficiently.

Shame GM's just never need healing then. If they did, then I suppose a gap is reasonable, but because Rhys has such better offensive capabilities than Mist, I'd probably give it to Rhys.

Soren and Shinon are a 04 support type, the slowest kind. They actually lose support points from Shoves. I don't think SorenxShinon is viable.

Oh yeah, forgot about that .

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

Soren and Shinon are a 04 support type, the slowest kind. They actually lose support points from Shoves. I don't think SorenxShinon is viable.

Yeah but really, what else does Shinon have? He could always support Gatrie but they both really don't need the def and regardless they get at least 2 DEF with A supports no matter what. What Shinon really wants is the attack. Unfortunately seeing as he is a very viable unit to endgame and pretty much all the people he can reasonably support that give attack that are not named Mia(She's most likely supporting Ike) are really not viable endgame units. Although you could probably include Soren in that category as well but at least he can be used to deal some sort of chip damage with his 3-10 range tomes and potentially be a backup healer in 4-E-1, despite their very slow supporting they can still reasonably get an A before 4-E.

[Interceptor]

Endgame supports are over-rated, really, because the end of Part 4 goes by in a flash. Shinon needs the +ATK support in his early-to-mid game, when he can't do much about his mt, but no further. By Turn 1 of 4-E-1, he's rocking the Double Bow and making the rest of the army look like little children. So, it really doesn't matter that his support partner didn't come along for the ride.

Anyway, despite ShinonxSoren being balls slow, I'd still consider it tied for most likely option (alongside Rhys). Even at an 04, their shared deployments ensure that the latest he'll land C support for 3-4, which is when Silencer lands. It's not his BEST option -- that would be Mist -- but Titania has right of first refusal on that one, imo.

[Junkhead]

I actually think supporting him with Rhys is a good option, he getss +2 Atk out of that, and you might as well start their support by Part 3, neither are at the front lines, and Shinon is most likely to be attacked due to Provoke first anyway. Maybe Shade on Rhys makes him almost invisible to enemies?

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

Shinon is most likely to be attacked due to Provoke first anyway.

lulz people keep Provoke on Shinon?

Ike/Gatrie make the best use out of it.

[Interceptor]

Ike has auto-Provoke, it's called being the Lord. I generally put Shade on him, to keep Ike from steam-rolling entire maps.

[dondon151]

I don't think lord priority is quite as strong as Provoke, though.

[Narga_Rocks]

Just to let anyone curious know: I'll be making any agreed on changes to this list from here on. If that ever happens.

Red Fox decided to give it up. I won't be making a new topic since I like being able to use the search function to find relevant past discussions and don't want to have to look through two topics. I'll just be editing the opening post.

[Interceptor]

That is too bad, it's the end of a very long era. I will miss the Red Fox Reign of Terror; you were a good, even-handed steward, RFoF.

Time to crack open the 'ol book of ancient grievances: Raisin down, Sothe way down.

only kidding

[Florete]

That is too bad, it's the end of a very long era. I will miss the Red Fox Reign of Terror; you were a good, even-handed steward, RFoF.

The benefit of the current situation is that if I do feel like taking back control, I can do so in the same topic, and I'm sure Narga wouldn't mind.

Time to crack open the 'ol book of ancient grievances: Raisin down, Sothe way down.

only kidding

Well, another reason I had for passing the list to Narga was to see where the list would go with someone else in control. So go ahead.

[Colonel M]

Ack stop now you're making me thing of giving up FE6 list. ;_; ...Though I'm pretty sure many others would be very happy if I did (Fir up anyone?)

Fun times RFoF. Indeed they were.

Let's hear Haar > Ike and Reyson (but not Ike (T).

Edited May 24, 2010 by Colonel M

[Narga_Rocks]

Ack stop now you're making me thing of giving up FE6 list. ;_; ...Though I'm pretty sure many others would be very happy if I did (Fir up anyone?)

I'm available. Marcus > Percival (both in high, not top). Fir > Lot > Roy. Miledy > Alan and Lance.

Actually, probably better if you don't let me be in charge. Besides, you've got how many months to go before you match Red Fox's time? Like, 13+ months?

[Colonel M]

People just need to learn how to make the compelling argument. I don't 100% disagree with Fir > Lot, it's just that the phase is not quite being seen as of yet. Also, Marcus > Percival... doesn't make 100% incomplete sense. Of course now we're going off-topic (thanks Mr. Moderator lol).

I think Haar should be over Ike and Reyson. While Reyson will be difficult, I'll see how I can get Haar > Ike. I'll make the argument later.

Also it's not matching time it's all about what the people want.

Edited May 24, 2010 by Colonel M

[-Cynthia-]

I also support Haar>Ike.

I'm not planning on giving up the FE9 list anytime soon, though people don't like to discuss FE9 that much, it just isn't that controversial I guess.

Edited May 24, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[RNG Princess]

I always thought Sothe and Volug were overrated way too much in every tier list I saw, they are the opposite of noob characters starting from bad to good; they go from good to bad with or without effort. That is until someone explained to me why endgame is less significant because of having a formed team, I still think some people knock them up too high but what should I care I'm also very biased with my favorite characters ;).

Edited May 24, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[dondon151]

Volug starts good and ends good. You probably wouldn't want to bring him to 4-E, though.

[RNG Princess]

I only used him once anyways he starts getting raped in part 3 :(. In my other playthroughs he's played meatshield and shoving machine..

Does he get good experience killing bosses? I usually feed him regular enemies.

[Interceptor]

Volug's biggest issue is getting combat for raising his Strike level, so the type of enemy that you feed him is not really important. He doesn't get a whole hell of a lot from a level-up. If he can get to S Strike by Part 3, he's cooking with fire, and he'll get SS Strike before long for Part 4 if you use him heavily.

[RNG Princess]

I'm in endgame part 1 and he's still in base level is that normal? he's killed some enemies but not a whole lot i didnt take too long in chapters they're all below 20 turns, the longest one i took in was 1-9 which was 22 turns irrc but thats because i wanted micaiah to reach level 20. All bosses were fed to Edward Aran or Jill and one to Fiona.

It seems like Volug would make good use of discipline if he could use it, can he?

Edited May 24, 2010 by Queen_Elincia