OMG it's a tier list

[Interceptor]

Haar's problem on the auras isn't mt, so much as accuracy. With maxed SKL and his average LCK at max level (which won't happen), he has a bio-neutral 60 listed HIT on the auras, which is terrible: about a 43% chance that he misses one hit, and 10% chance that he misses both. At least he can Canto out of the way afterwards and make room for someone else, but his contribution here is decidedly limited.

[-Cynthia-]

Haar can also have a support. He's obviously going to get accuracy from himself and doesn't really care about his support partner, so he can get B Tibarn for more accuracy or something.

Lyre needs to transform to Shove, which means we're both wasting turns and grassing her (or using Wildheart, but we could use a btter Shover for that).

Stronger units still make better shovers because we don't have to worry about them being in range of enemies.

Edited June 5, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Anouleth]

Lyre needs to be transformed to shove most units. Kyza and Mordecai both have more palatable gauges, and all the other laguz have better durability and deal better damage in response if they're attacked.

[RNG Princess]

I'm thinking Ilyana is a better candidate to train a little bit and seal. 1-7, 1-8, 1-E get strict on the character selection some characters go missing or character limit, and promoting her early or in 1-E lets her use some skills she's going to transfer to the GM; I'm specifically talking about adept.

According to the other topic she's going to transfer fortune, adept, celerity, and saviour because they make a huge difference specifically on Haar. She is also going to transfer other items like a speedwing and maybe forges. It wouldn't be a bad idea to have her use adept for 1-E, for Part 1 she's definitly better than Leonardo.

So pelleas potshotting is keeping him out of bottom? Why wouldn't it count for Astrid as well?

She is in a weaker team and he is in a better built team after all.

I was going to say maybe Lyre can go to that desert map in part 4 and look for treasure but there is still other options to pick. If she was not an npc in 3-1 it would be easir to argue Lyre > Oliver too bad they decided against that.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[-Cynthia-]

Pelleas has better damage output and less terrible durability.

Ilyana can use Adept in 1-E, but it's not as if it makes her offense great since her activation rate isn't very high (not to mention she might run into hit issues here because of authority stars).

Basically, Ilyana hit harder for most of Part 1, Leonardo has a few chapters of chip damage before Ilyana shows up. Then there are ways Leo can be useful in Part 3 (most of them involve contested resources), while Ilyana is going to be way below the rest of the GMs. Then they both are pretty bad for Part 4, Leo is probably behind in levels, but has a better class.

[grandjackal]

Haar's problem on the auras isn't mt, so much as accuracy. With maxed SKL and his average LCK at max level (which won't happen), he has a bio-neutral 60 listed HIT on the auras, which is terrible: about a 43% chance that he misses one hit, and 10% chance that he misses both. At least he can Canto out of the way afterwards and make room for someone else, but his contribution here is decidedly limited.

Is this including the Skl bonus you get from Blood Tides?

[RNG Princess]

Pelleas has better damage output and less terrible durability.

Ilyana can use Adept in 1-E, but it's not as if it makes her offense great since her activation rate isn't very high (not to mention she might run into hit issues here because of authority stars).

Basically, Ilyana hit harder for most of Part 1, Leonardo has a few chapters of chip damage before Ilyana shows up. Then there are ways Leo can be useful in Part 3 (most of them involve contested resources), while Ilyana is going to be way below the rest of the GMs. Then they both are pretty bad for Part 4, Leo is probably behind in levels, but has a better class.

That is true, but she has canto and she's definitly contributing more than he is (unless he's crowned), covering ledges, turning off houses on fire, and in case the npc healers need mobility or rescue she can be up for it. For Part 4 idk who would be considered more useful, probably him but her bows can be used good on the pegasi or the birds.

It does suck that Ilyana is stuck in a horrible class but using her for 1-E makes a huge difference on Part 3, much more than taking paragon off Astrid or savior off Fiona, she's bringing alot of goodies to the GM. Using her indirectly helps I guess, but idk if she should take credit for it or not.

I still consider Leo and Ilyana > Rolf

Edited June 5, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[-Cynthia-]

4-2 is also a Rout map, so anyone that helps kill enemies is a benefit. Yeah, Tibarn is great and all, but he can't be evrywhere at once, so having Pelleas combine with some mediocre filler units for kills should save us some turns.

3-9 on the other hand, is a Kill Boss, which basically means we just have to have Geoffrey Brave Lance the boss and have Calill hit him with Meteor or something.

Astrid's damage on Pegasi and Birds is pretty low even with effective bonuses since her Str isn't goign to be very good. Not to mention she's going to get doubled and ORKOd by nearly everything, so extra efforts are going have to be put in to protect her.

Ilyana just has to come to 1-E to get the Speedwing handed to her, she doesn't actually have to do anything.

[RNG Princess]

4-2 is also a Rout map, so anyone that helps kill enemies is a benefit. Yeah, Tibarn is great and all, but he can't be evrywhere at once, so having Pelleas combine with some mediocre filler units for kills should save us some turns.

3-9 on the other hand, is a Kill Boss, which basically means we just have to have Geoffrey Brave Lance the boss and have Calill hit him with Meteor or something.

Astrid's damage on Pegasi and Birds is pretty low even with effective bonuses since her Str isn't goign to be very good. Not to mention she's going to get doubled and ORKOd by nearly everything, so extra efforts are going have to be put in to protect her.

Ilyana just has to come to 1-E to get the Speedwing handed to her, she doesn't actually have to do anything.

It would be nice to have her do something at least cover that ledge.

and you're right about the rout, I had nearly forgotten it does make a difference that his potshotting is a little more significant for that one chapter.

I remember I actually paired him up with Astrid on my last playthrough.

now I'm considering Pelleas > Kyza

Edited June 5, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Dat Nick]

You two, go back and read everything I've posted and comment against it.

Thank you.

I've read it, and you continue to over-generalize the issue.

As "free" as shove-botting in her forced chapter is, what does it do? Basically next to nothing. As much as fielding Olive will consume a unit slot...let's assign some weird ass arbitrary values to utility to make things make a bit more sense here. Fortify and shit gives him 400 points of utility, being worse than your best healer (prolly Elincia) docks 350 points from his score towards overall positive contribution (and please don't exaggerate the difference here, he can't fight, has to stay in the back, and can't be hit, none of which is really a problem when you have ranged staves) while it has an opportunity cost, Oliver is actually able to contribute a fuck of a lot more than Lyre is, just for the simple fact he's actually capable of doing SOMETHING. Any contributions Lyre makes outside of being forced come with an opportunity cost for a bag of shit that can't do anything.

Are we playing the opportunity cost to such extremes that it overrides being 400 times better than the other units just because she's a dipshit in one chapter?

[Zkirsche]

Lyre needs to transform to Shove, which means we're both wasting turns and grassing her (or using Wildheart, but we could use a btter Shover for that).

This "better" shover thing needs to stop as it's all really superfluous. Lyre, untransformed too, has 11 wt. This means IIRC that she can shove even Boyd. Oh noes, she can't shove Ike or Gatrie untransformed! Heck they probably don't even need teh shoving as they'll just rape on enemy phase. The units in real need of shoving are those who are in danger of dying an need an extra hand to get away. E.G. Rhys/Mist/Ilyana/Boyd/Nephenee(maybe) etc, and Lyre can shove all of those.

Stronger units still make better shovers because we don't have to worry about them being in range of enemies.

That's only true if them attacking said enemy actually makes a difference. Lyre gets attacked, Crowned Gatrie ORKO's next player phase. Kyza get's attacked, same thing happens. What did Kyza do that was so special? A superfluous amount of damage.

If you meant danger from dying, then I don't believe Lyre gets ORKO'ed and can simply be healed. It's not as if Mia/Gatrie/Ike/Haar need that much attention anyway.

I've read it, and you continue to over-generalize the issue.

As "free" as shove-botting in her forced chapter is, what does it do? Basically next to nothing. As much as fielding Olive will consume a unit slot...let's assign some weird ass arbitrary values to utility to make things make a bit more sense here. Fortify and shit gives him 400 points of utility, being worse than your best healer (prolly Elincia) docks 350 points from his score towards overall positive contribution (and please don't exaggerate the difference here, he can't fight, has to stay in the back, and can't be hit, none of which is really a problem when you have ranged staves) while it has an opportunity cost, Oliver is actually able to contribute a fuck of a lot more than Lyre is, just for the simple fact he's actually capable of doing SOMETHING. Any contributions Lyre makes outside of being forced come with an opportunity cost for a bag of shit that can't do anything.

Are we playing the opportunity cost to such extremes that it overrides being 400 times better than the other units just because she's a dipshit in one chapter?

However, what other units do is greater than 400 points of utility, thus he has negative utility.

Assuming fielding Lyre for shovebotting is not a net negative (which I have already addressed), she performs a positive, albeit a ridiculously small positive

Edited June 5, 2010 by Kirsche

[-Cynthia-]

Lyre isn't even forced in any chapters IIRC, except 3-1 as an NPC.

Lyre gets ORKOd while untransformed. Also if she's taking other people's player phases to get healed, that's also a waste of resources.

Sure, she's not awful in comparison to someone like Kyza if we're only using both for Shoving, but she's still worse and not worth fielding.

Edited June 5, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[RNG Princess]

I've read it, and you continue to over-generalize the issue.

As "free" as shove-botting in her forced chapter is, what does it do? Basically next to nothing. As much as fielding Olive will consume a unit slot...let's assign some weird ass arbitrary values to utility to make things make a bit more sense here. Fortify and shit gives him 400 points of utility, being worse than your best healer (prolly Elincia) docks 350 points from his score towards overall positive contribution (and please don't exaggerate the difference here, he can't fight, has to stay in the back, and can't be hit, none of which is really a problem when you have ranged staves) while it has an opportunity cost, Oliver is actually able to contribute a fuck of a lot more than Lyre is, just for the simple fact he's actually capable of doing SOMETHING. Any contributions Lyre makes outside of being forced come with an opportunity cost for a bag of shit that can't do anything.

Are we playing the opportunity cost to such extremes that it overrides being 400 times better than the other units just because she's a dipshit in one chapter?

I don't think she's forced for any chapters though, so she's very much like him except she has no healing, but is available for many chapters compared to him.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Optimal 10 for endgame should make room for trained Tanith/Marcia.

Edited June 5, 2010 by WeaponsofMassConstruction

[Zkirsche]

Lyre gets ORKOd while untransformed. Also if she's taking other people's player phases to get healed, that's also a waste of resources.

Oh sorry if we miss out of Mist's enormous chip damage. I'll hold up my hands to say I forgot about that.

Sure, she's not awful in comparison to someone like Kyza if we're only using both for Shoving, but she's still worse and not worth fielding.

Worse as in dealing 200% damage to a unit with 100% hit rates is worse than dealing 100% damage to a unit with a 100% rate.

[Dat Nick]

I don't think she's forced for any chapters though, so she's very much like him except she has no healing, but is available for many chapters compared to him.

who gives a fuck how many chapters she's available? If you're going to consider Oliver net negative utility and won't ever be fielded, then why do I give two flying fucks about Lyre?

Availability was, still is, and always will be, a terrible excuse for picking and choosing which units get boned over by Optimal Deployment.

However, what other units do is greater than 400 points of utility

Take a unit like Elincia.

Elincia's ups on Oliver is that she flies, can take a hit, can deal out damage (quite a lot too), move, and Canto.

Now take Boyd and compare him to Lyre. Boyd's ups on Lyre are...um......EVERYTHING.

There are different levels of outclassed. If you put a gun to my head and forced me to field Oliver in Endgame or Lyre in Part 3, I'd pick Oliver in Endgame, every time.

Unless we're giving Lyre NPC credit, she's boned over by optimal deployment every bit as badly.

Edited June 5, 2010 by SaltyWongIsSalty

[Anouleth]

There are different levels of outclassed. If you put a gun to my head and forced me to field Oliver in Endgame or Lyre in Part 3, I'd pick Oliver in Endgame, every time.

Unless we're giving Lyre NPC credit, she's boned over by optimal deployment every bit as badly.

If you had to choose between say, fielding Lyre instead of Kyza (or whoever your 14th worst unit is) in 3-10 and fielding Oliver in Endgame, I'm certain you would pick Lyre.

[Dat Nick]

If you had to choose between say, fielding Lyre instead of Kyza (or whoever your 14th worst unit is)

why would I even consider to field Kyza to begin with? Brom and buds have shown by now, anybody who's on the ass useless level of Lyre is well out of the bounds of Optimal Deployment by now.

and no, I would much rather field Kyza over Lyre. He at least has some comprehension of the terms "offense", "defense", and "keep yo ass transformed." It's a unit who can do something vs a unit who can't do anything. I can do a lot more with my healer not being able to attack or fly than I am with a unit who's dumbshit useless no matter how I try to use her.

Edited June 5, 2010 by SaltyWongIsSalty

[Zkirsche]

At worst they're equal, so my original point - "bottom of bottom" - still stands.

Although Oliver does get outclassed by Elincia at EVERYTHING.

It's a unit who can do something vs a unit who can't do anything.

except shove all the people who need to be shoved :/

But don't mind me or my points, I'm only the one your debating against.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Kirsche

[Dat Nick]

At worst they're equal, so my original point - "bottom of bottom" - still stands.

No, it doesn't still stand. Oliver's a lot more pratical in Part 4 than Lyre is in part 3. Both units kick out somebody better, but at least Oliver gives you something for doing so. What do I get when I kick out Boyd for Lyre? I get a shovebot.

Although Oliver does get outclassed by Elincia at EVERYTHING.

Yeah, now we know why they're several tiers apart?

except shove all the people who need to be shoved

because shoving is so useful

And Kyza does that anyway, only he's got a greater chance of not getting killed for it

Edited June 5, 2010 by SaltyWongIsSalty

[Zkirsche]

No, it doesn't still stand. Oliver's a lot more pratical in Part 4 than Lyre is in part 3. Both units kick out somebody better, but at least Oliver gives you something for doing so. What do I get when I kick out Boyd for Lyre? I get a shovebot.

This is an efficiency tier list, correct? Thus we need to use units, items and strategies efficiently. So if the most efficient way to play these two is to bench them, which is what you're suggesting, then they both have 0 utility and are equal. Thus, they'll both be bottom of bottom.

Yeah, now we know why they're several tiers apart?

Now take Boyd and compare him to Lyre.

oh, the irony.

because shoving is so useful

Better than doing nothing.

And Kyza does that anyway, only he's got a greater chance of not getting killed for it

This would only matter if Lyre had a great chance of being killed. And even then, what does it matter? A sacrifice for the benefit of the team.

[-Cynthia-]

If we're going to go the forced chapters route, Oliver is techinically free deployment on 4-4. He might chip something, or toss someone a heal, and unlike Lyre doesn't take a slot to do it.

[Dat Nick]

Thus we need to use units, items and strategies efficiently.

Yeah, and I can use Oliver a LOT more efficiently than I can Lyre.

oh, the irony.

Here's the thing, being outclassed at healing is twenty times better than being outclassed at fighting.

Especially when you can't do much better than 1 damage to something. Oliver can use Fortify and Physic just as well as Elincia can.

Better than doing nothing.

Are you implying Oliver does nothing? Because healing beats the holy hell out of dumbass shoving.

This would only matter if Lyre had a great chance of being killed.

Lyre has 7 def and 11 AS untransformed and it's not easy to kill her? UMMMM okay?

Btw, there is again the issue of the sacrifice not producing much. If Roshe criticaled a cav and got it to 2 HP before dying, great. If Lyre just put a dent in something, then it really didn't do all that much for me.

Edited June 5, 2010 by SaltyWongIsSalty

[Zkirsche]

I doubt any of that actually helps save turns/reduces risks. Sure, he can do minor chip damage, but:

a) he might be in harms way, attracting attention away from units that can ORKO - a negative.

or b ) a unit could have simply ORKO'ed that unit anyway.

healing probably isn't necessary anyway, units are plenty durable by this point.

Yeah, and I can use Oliver a LOT more efficiently than I can Lyre.

Yeah, because when Olvier sits on a bench, he's soooooo much better tahn Lyre, who's also sitting on a bench.

Oliver can use Fortify and Physic just as well as Elincia can.

And Lyre can shove just as well as Kyza can.

oh, the irony.

Are you implying Oliver does nothing? Because healing beats the holy hell out of dumbass shoving.

Well, it's be benched and do nothing, or do something and be a net negative instead of neutral. You're choice.

Lyre has 7 def and it's not easy to kill her? UMMMM okay?

Not transformed. And again, this part whcih you conveniently missed out but I have to repeat anyway:

And even then, what does it matter? A sacrifice for the benefit of the team.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Kirsche

[Dat Nick]

Yeah, because when Olvier sits on a bench, he's soooooo much better tahn Lyre, who's also sitting on a bench.

Not the issue, for the trillionth time. If I have to use Oliver or Lyre, I'm going to use Oliver, because healing is a lot more useful than shoving.

And Lyre can shove just as well as Kyza can.

she doesn't hit as well as kyza can

she doesn't take hits as well as kyza does

she doesn't stay transformed as well as kyza does

Shoving does not define a character.

Well, it's be benched and do nothing, or do something and be a net negative instead of neutral. You're choice.

I don't think shoving's worth it. At all.

Not transformed

Lyre does not have some magical item that allows her to stay transformed all the time.

A sacrifice for the benefit of the team.

Yeah, and you conveniently missed the part of my post where I said it wasn't much.