OMG it's a tier list

[Zkirsche]

Yes, I do realize that Sothe (T) is worse than Sothe (N), but I don't see why this prevents Sothe (T) from being tiered, unless there's some double-standard that I'm unaware of.

Basically, because the stats are only carried over if a unit reaches level 20/20, we assume that Sothe doesn't reach level 20 and thus his "transfer" is his mornal stat as that is the most efficient transfer method for him.

[General Spoon]

Basically, because the stats are only carried over if a unit reaches level 20/20, we assume that Sothe doesn't reach level 20 and thus his "transfer" is his mornal stat as that is the most efficient transfer method for him.

That is acceptable and I can find nothing to say against this. Thank you for providing a reason that isn't just "he's worse that way."

[Narga_Rocks]

That is acceptable and I can find nothing to say against this. Thank you for providing a reason that isn't just "he's worse that way."

But it is "he's worse that way". He's worse than (N), we only try to transfer the best possible for each character, the best is transferring a dead Sothe, therefore there is no transfer.

That boils down to "he's worse that way". Wrapping it in pretty words doesn't actually change what was actually said.

It's the same reason we allow units to have bands. We could just transfer the stats they get if we don't give them anything along the way, but we don't do it that way because it isn't the best option.

Edited July 4, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Colonel M]

While combat-wise Elincia is rather sub par (arguably useless) by 4-E, she's still a favorable Endgame unit if only to bless Wyrmslayer. The healing is a little superfluous as well as Rescue since Micaiah can also do these things. In a dire emergency, she can at least dent Generals and Canto off to lala land.

(Not that I disagree or agree with a drop).

[Zkirsche]

But it is "he's worse that way". He's worse than (N), we only try to transfer the best possible for each character, the best is transferring a dead Sothe, therefore there is no transfer.

I think he's referring to that fact that I actually show what is the more efficient option and that I clarify that a "transfer" unit doesn't necessarily have to have stats transferred over.

On topic, Elincia could definitely do with moving down, but now comes the really hard question: below who? I believe there were some convincing arguments as to why Elincia > Tibarn (greater availability, healing utility, similar utility in some places e.g. 4-5 etcetera), so do they all move down, or what?

[Florete]

I don't see transfer Sothe listed on the tier list. Is this an oversight, or...

I know you already got an explanation, but...

-An N/T means the normal and transfer version of that character are right next to each other with the (T) version on top but kept in the same spot to avoid the redundancy of listing the character twice. Where applicable, the transfer stats are still listed for reference due to the possibility of being argued up.

High (12) (T-3)

Sothe (N/T)

Oversight.

But it is "he's worse that way". He's worse than (N), we only try to transfer the best possible for each character, the best is transferring a dead Sothe, therefore there is no transfer.

Actually, what was accepted was transferring a lv 1-19 Sothe, getting him no stat boosts but a possible Bond with Tormod or Astrid (probably Tormod). Technically this Sothe (T) would be better than normal Sothe, although an occasional 5 crit most definitely isn't turning any heads.

Anything else that happened in the past 4 days I should know about? I mostly just skimmed the last few pages.

[grandjackal]

Anything else that happened in the past 4 days I should know about? I mostly just skimmed the last few pages.

Skepticism was thrown on Aran's position (as in, compared to Eddie), more bottom tier argument crap, I think something about Jill rising a bit...I think that's it, but my memory is garbage and I'm too lazy to go back and check.

[Narga_Rocks]

Elincia's trouble is that we are now clearing 4-5 in 4 turns or less. Part of what got Elincia where she is was the fact that her offence could be made nearly as good as Tibarn's just by Paragon in 4-2 and killing stuff in 4-5 (even 9 or 10 turns in 4-2 and 6 turns in 4-5 turns her into a god). If someone really good at this type of stuff (re: Interceptor, dondon) actually really really tries to get her kills in a small number of turns we could have an understanding of what her upper limit is for level in 4-E. Consider Interceptor managed to cap out most of Neph's important stats before 4-E and didn't actually take particularly long in 4-2 or 4-5. Elincia may need paragon in 4-5, as well, though, now that we are assuming you are clearing that quickly.

[Anouleth]

While combat-wise Elincia is rather sub par (arguably useless) by 4-E, she's still a favorable Endgame unit if only to bless Wyrmslayer. The healing is a little superfluous as well as Rescue since Micaiah can also do these things. In a dire emergency, she can at least dent Generals and Canto off to lala land.

(Not that I disagree or agree with a drop).

Being a 'favourable Endgame unit' is not good enough. I mean, even goddamn Renning can dent Generals and Canto off, and he can actually ORKO the 25AS Generals with the Hammer, as well as being able to fight better at 1-2 range. He can even bless a Wyrmslayer, like her, not that it's really necessary to the 1-turn of 4-E-3 (even with my horde of stupid Seraph Knights, I didn't need to bless one). Whereas Tibarn can actually ORKO some Generals... all of them if he takes the Drop, and since he can actually damage Dheginsea and is better for Lehran and can double Auras without any help, he gets more mileage out of it.

On topic, Elincia could definitely do with moving down, but now comes the really hard question: below who? I believe there were some convincing arguments as to why Elincia > Tibarn (greater availability, healing utility, similar utility in some places e.g. 4-5 etcetera), so do they all move down, or what?

Elincia is certainly not better than Tibarn. She has 2-E, and that's it. Her healing utility is almost non-existent - I didn't end up healing even once in 4-2, every turn she was killing to give her more experience, and I wasn't negatively impacted by her failing to heal. Her versus Naesala is closer, though. She still has the advantage of 2-E, and he's not so vital on Silver Army, nor does he make her look as stupid as Tibarn does in 4-E. Being stuck on 47mt is a pain, but I guess you can give him BEXP for it since it's tied for his second highest growth.

Edited July 4, 2010 by Slowking

[Fenrir]

That's an interesting point, i always thought it should be this way Tibarn > Elincia, i would say Tibarn derserves another crown, king of upper mid, BK is vital for 1-9 and 1-E, after that, not so much and Tibarn has 2 really nice stages plus 4-E, he is possibly the best unit on all 3 of these stages, BK vs Nailah is a toss up in 1-E. The hard thing is Miciah, i have no idea how to approach two characters different in almost every possible way.

[Anouleth]

Well, I wouldn't peg Tibarn as the best unit in 4-E-1. Caineghis is way better. He even 1-rounds some of the Cover Generals. How fucking insane is that? But maybe 4-E-5. He doubles everything no sweat, and he has better strength than Naesala or any given SM, and 8->10 move and Canto too, plus enough capacity for a bajillion skills. The only person who really gives him a run for his money is maybe like, a capped Astrid/Fiona/Elincia/Nailah/Caineghis or something similiarly improbable.

[Narga_Rocks]

Being a 'favourable Endgame unit' is not good enough. I mean, even goddamn Renning can dent Generals and Canto off, and he can actually ORKO the 25AS Generals with the Hammer, as well as being able to fight better at 1-2 range. He can even bless a Wyrmslayer, like her, not that it's really necessary to the 1-turn of 4-E-3 (even with my horde of stupid Seraph Knights, I didn't need to bless one). Whereas Tibarn can actually ORKO some Generals... all of them if he takes the Drop, and since he can actually damage Dheginsea and is better for Lehran and can double Auras without any help, he gets more mileage out of it.

Pretty sure by "drop" Colonel M meant "lower her", aka "drop her on the list". Neither of them should be getting an energy drop. I mean, seriously, waiting from 3-5 until part 4? Are you kidding me?

[Junkhead]

That's an interesting point, but zihark is never not durable, partially because he's an earth. but zihark overall is awesome, i was never to high on him until my current PT where he is owning everything, if zihark had a bit more def, he might actually be > volug.

Does anybody else think SMs are truly amazing? mia/ed/zihark are some of my favorite characters, on my current PT I'm actually gonna use...lucia XP

Both, Zihark and Volug are pretty damn durable given an A support together. It's not impossible, considering they can start supporting by Part 1 and reach their A support at least by 1-8.

[Narga_Rocks]

Both, Zihark and Volug are pretty damn durable given an A support together. It's not impossible, considering they can start supporting by Part 1 and reach their A support at least by 1-8.

How long are you taking? Also, it's impossible anyway. 1-6, 1-7, 1-8. At the earliest, you can't build it until 1-E, and that requires taking way way way too long on chapters anyway.

[nflchamp]

Both, Zihark and Volug are pretty damn durable given an A support together. It's not impossible, considering they can start supporting by Part 1 and reach their A support at least by 1-8.

1) You're responding to a post made two days ago that has already been discussed and moved away from. I see no reason for you to bring it back up.

2) Hahaha, Zihark x Volug support before 1-8. Priceless.

[Junkhead]

How long are you taking? Also, it's impossible anyway. 1-6, 1-7, 1-8. At the earliest, you can't build it until 1-E, and that requires taking way way way too long on chapters anyway.

That's a good question, but I really don't go through the chapters slowly unless you consider 1-7, by then, I had them C IIRC. Yeah, defeneatly that. I had them B supported during 1-8 and A supported by 1-E. But I actually think an A support by Part 3 is possible.

1) You're responding to a post made two days ago that has already been discussed and moved away from. I see no reason for you to bring it back up.

2) Hahaha, Zihark x Volug support before 1-8. Priceless.

I just entered here and bumped myself with that.

I'm not too sure of how long a chapter should be taken in number of turns going effeciently, but I really don't remember taking it that long for at least a C support. It's not hard to keep them together.

Edited July 5, 2010 by Soul

[Narga_Rocks]

Volug * Zihark get 4 points per adjacent and need 33 to get a level in a single chapter. That's 9 turns. And that's assuming you start them adjacent at the beginning of the chapter, which isn't always possible. In 1-6, dondon ended it in like 6 turns. Others normally go 6+4 or something instead of 4+2. Even with 10 turns, that's every single turn except one that you need them adjacent, and Volug has 9 move and ignores thickets while Zihark has 7 move and each thicket costs 2. There is no way they should be adjacent that often. At best, that's a C to start 1-8, since it should take 1-6 and 1-7 to get your C. Then you have Zihark and Volug on completely different parts of the map. It should be turn 3 before you can even get them adjacent, and that's if you don't care about efficiently clearing stuff. And you can end it by turn 7 rather easily, and others can end it 4, 5, or 6. In other words, no way in hell are you getting another support level in 1-8. That means you have a C for 1-E, and you can make a B for 3-6. The only way you are getting an A for 3-6 with them is if you play inefficiently. simple as that.

[Junkhead]

I see. Zihark's durability problems mostly shine in Part 3. And a B support by 3-6 isn't at all bad, I can see that +30 as something passable when it comes to Tigers. Volug isn't standing much hits from Tigers either, considering they don't come one by one most of the time.

Edited July 5, 2010 by Soul

[nflchamp]

I see. Zihark's durability problems mostly shine in Part 3. And a B support by 3-6 isn't at all bad, I can see that +30 as something passable when it comes to Tigers. Volug isn't standing much hits from Tigers either, considering they don't come one by one most of the time.

Volug is 3HKO'd and at least 2 need to be Tigers. Zihark is 2HKO'd by any combination of Tiger and Cat. Sure, they're only seeing what, 25% true? That still leaves Zihark at 6% chance of death. Volug, 1.5%. And then he has to actually see 3 attacks (that kill him).

[Junkhead]

Volug is 3HKO'd and at least 2 need to be Tigers. Zihark is 2HKO'd by any combination of Tiger and Cat. Sure, they're only seeing what, 25% true? That still leaves Zihark at 6% chance of death. Volug, 1.5%. And then he has to actually see 3 attacks (that kill him).

You can't assume he'll survive them forever without the Earth support, he's missing on having high chances of dodging. And having 6% & 1.5% chances of dying isn't at all bad.

[Narga_Rocks]

You can't assume he'll survive them forever without the Earth support, he's missing on having high chances of dodging. And having 6% & 1.5% chances of dying isn't at all bad.

Yes, it is bad. When you have multiple perfectly safe options with which to complete the map, it is bad. Now, if everyone has a 6% chance of dying then it doesn't really matter who you use. When you can have Jill and Nolan and Volug run around safely killing things and making little or no chance of reset, 6% becomes terrible. And that's 6% nearly every turn. After, say, 5 turns of a 6% chance of death, that's a ~26.6% chance of death. Jill and friends, meanwhile? still 0%.

[RNG Princess]

If Elincia is moved down I'd say Tibarn over her, and Laura is a little underrated imo since its her healing that is needed the most but unlike Elincia its not two chapters of healing its several. Unlike Micaiah or Mist and Rhys she's the lone healer for Part 1 unless you sacrifice with Micaiah and its not happening all the time and its certainly not better healing than Laura's in Part 1.

Nailah > BK for 1-E since she's got way better move.

Edited July 5, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Fenrir]

If Elincia is moved down I'd say Tibarn over her, and Laura is a little underrated imo since its her healing that is needed the most but unlike Elincia its not two chapters of healing its several. Unlike Micaiah or Mist and Rhys she's the lone healer for Part 1 unless you sacrifice with Micaiah and its not happening all the time and its certainly not better healing than Laura's in Part 1.

Nailah > BK for 1-E since she's got way better move.

Hmm, this being said i would say Tibarn > miccy, her healing is not essential, and anyone wanna argue her combat in P3? lol. P1 combat is beaten by tibarn, miccy is mainly doing chip damage, Tibarn is invalueble for his P4 stages being quicker, no one would do it better.

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

Both, Zihark and Volug are pretty damn durable given an A support together. It's not impossible, considering they can start supporting by Part 1 and reach their A support at least by 1-8.

By 1-8 you'd be lucky to get them to a C in a reasonable amount of time. If they have an A by 1-8 something is wrong, very wrong.

[grandjackal]

IMO, Zihark's lucky to have a B by 3-6.