OMG it's a tier list

[Narga_Rocks]

IMO, Zihark's lucky to have a B by 3-6.

Yep. 3-6 is the earliest. It's possible it could take even longer if you are really blitzing through those part 1 chapters. Also, unlike Jill and Nolan who basically each take a side (Jill gets help), Zihark would obviously need to hang around her support partner. Meaning if you try to focus kills on Zihark, his support partner will fall behind and will likely just become support battery for part 4 and then not make it to Endgame. And if you try to split the kills, well, you clearly aren't getting Zihark up to massive levels in 3-6. Either way, the future does not look bright.

[Fenrir]

Zihark would obviously need to hang around her support partner.

you really don't like this guy...

[-Cynthia-]

One of the great things about Volug is his 9 Mov (ignoring thickets), so having them adjacent to Zihark on either of the 1-6 maps or 1-7 is difficult. Then they're not on the same side of the map in 1-8. You can probably justify more adjacents in 1-E (or maybe even some rescues) because neither of them should be charging anyway and Nailah and the BK do the heavy lifting here.

[Narga_Rocks]

you really don't like this guy...

Unintentional. I oops sometimes.

But then again, with that hair...

[General Spoon]

Wasn't Oliver supposed to be moved to bottom? What happened to that?

[Narga_Rocks]

But to where? Is it decided that it seems as though Astrid and Meg are > him? I'm not putting Fiona above him, though.

[Florete]

You might as well just move him to the top of Bottom for now. We can decide a specific place for him after that.

[dondon151]

I think it's about time for Zihark and Nolan to switch places on this list. I also think that Volke and Stefan should drop into low tier, in the neighborhood of Bastian. Arguments will be made as requested.

[RNG Princess]

I think it's about time for Zihark and Nolan to switch places on this list. I also think that Volke and Stefan should drop into low tier, in the neighborhood of Bastian. Arguments will be made as requested.

This

and what about Elincia and Tibarn?

Thinking about it does BK's godlyness of 1 chapter beat Tibarn that much btw?

For 1-E he has bad move iirc.

Edited July 6, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[grandjackal]

I think it's about time for Zihark and Nolan to switch places on this list. I also think that Volke and Stefan should drop into low tier, in the neighborhood of Bastian. Arguments will be made as requested.

Not only do I agree with this, I feel Zihark should drop lower. Perhaps below Transfer Neph? Obviously I have no solid argument for that, but I don't feel he's got much of anything on her.

[dondon151]

Actually, I don't get why Neph (T) isn't a little higher. Her parameters, aside from spd, are roughly equivalent to Mia (N)'s. She'll never have quite the same proc rates due to 3 less crit from skl, 5 less class crit, and lower Adept activation rate (approximately 8-9% lower over 2 attacks at base, and 4.3% lower over 2 attacks when both are capped tier 2), but you have 2 Adepts available anyway. She has the same access to a critforge and both have access to purchasable killers from part 2 (though killers are balls weak). Heck, they both even have access to Brave Sword and Brave Lance from inter-part transfers.

Neph (T)'s 2-range is a lot more potent, however. She has access to Oscar's Short Spear and potentially Geoffrey's if you managed to transfer it over. Starting 3-7 she also has access to forged Javelins, while Mia has to rely on mostly Wind Edges and the odd Storm Sword if you manage to steal it - but in most cases that relies on an unreliable Disarm + steal. I guess you can steal a Storm Sword from the DB in 3-7 reliably by giving it to someone who can't use it, but forged Javelins are hands down better.

She also gets 2-1, 2-2, and 2-E to her credit. 2-1 is obvious, 2-2 requires use of Laguz Stones for any of your laguz to do anything significant on offense, and 2-E has her holding down chokepoints (unless, again, you want to stone a laguz). And for what it's worth, Impale is skl% while Astra is skl/2%, so proc rates even out in third tier.

I think Neph (T) should at least go above the hawks, especially if Mia is there already.

[Fenrir]

This

and what about Elincia and Tibarn?

Thinking about it does BK's godlyness of 1 chapter beat Tibarn that much btw?

For 1-E he has bad move iirc.

Tibarn should be above BK, but i'm sure someone would come up with a stupid argument against this...what about tibarn vs miccy? i thought tibarn was > miccy, but of course this is just one persons opinion.

neph(t) rapes zihark, and so does nolan. no way he should be higher.

EDIT: i think neph should be just below the hawks, i was playing 3-10 and 3-11 today and they help a hell of a lot. They also own 3-7 and 3-8 not to mention their P4.

Edited July 6, 2010 by Fenrir

[Soren37]

Tibarn's lower than the Black Knight probably becuase of 1-E. Black Knight can destroy a small area, probably even the ledges, which allows more of your army to take out the upper levels faster, and get access to the chests. Tibarn helps with the ever-spawning laguz, but before that, he has to deal with crossbows, which can be a thorn gaping bolt wound in his side. And then it's Endgame for him, which is just him abusing everything. Black Knight has everything capped, Alondite, and enough time to help out the DB, even the dreaded desert chapter.

[Fenrir]

Tibarn's lower than the Black Knight probably becuase of 1-E. Black Knight can destroy a small area, probably even the ledges, which allows more of your army to take out the upper levels faster, and get access to the chests. Tibarn helps with the ever-spawning laguz, but before that, he has to deal with crossbows, which can be a thorn gaping bolt wound in his side. And then it's Endgame for him, which is just him abusing everything. Black Knight has everything capped, Alondite, and enough time to help out the DB, even the dreaded desert chapter.

characters do not get credit for when they are on your teammega facepalm if im wrong while trying to act smart

Tibarn doesn't help you 1-3 turn 4-5, and 4-2? crossbow, yeah they sure hit him alot...and they dont even OHKO.

[Soren37]

characters do not get credit for when they are on your teammega facepalm if im wrong while trying to act smart

Tibarn doesn't help you 1-3 turn 4-5, and 4-2? crossbow, yeah they sure hit him alot...and they dont even OHKO.

You're either missing a word or you just epically failed.

Tibarn has 109 Avo at base (transformed). The only crossbow user listed has a 167 hit, which means he's facing 64.3 true hits. If one hits, it's (28*3) - 32 = 84-32 = 52. He'll be alive with 16 HP. There are 4 other archers that are on the map. One wrong unit placement = Hawk for Dinner. He can help you kill Izuka, and helps in Endgame, when everyone's just about ready to deal some massive damage and destroy everything.

Black Knight on the other hand, is found in the hardest chapters in the game, appears in 1-E, and rapes shit up there. He also appears in 1-9, where it's him and Miccy, so you have him charge around destroying shit, while Miccy stands back and hopes for the best. Then he vanishes, and reappears in the dreaded 3-6, where your units are praying that luck is with them, as your team has next to no durability. And the desert, derp, my bad. Either way, the BK helps Miccy's team out more than Tibarn can help out the Hawk Army.

[Fenrir]

You're either missing a word or you just epically failed.

Tibarn has 109 Avo at base (transformed). The only crossbow user listed has a 167 hit, which means he's facing 64.3 true hits. If one hits, it's (28*3) - 32 = 84-32 = 52. He'll be alive with 16 HP. There are 4 other archers that are on the map. One wrong unit placement = Hawk for Dinner. He can help you kill Izuka, and helps in Endgame, when everyone's just about ready to deal some massive damage and destroy everything.

Black Knight on the other hand, is found in the hardest chapters in the game, appears in 1-E, and rapes shit up there. He also appears in 1-9, where it's him and Miccy, so you have him charge around destroying shit, while Miccy stands back and hopes for the best. Then he vanishes, and reappears in the dreaded 3-6, where your units are praying that luck is with them, as your team has next to no durability. And the desert, derp, my bad. Either way, the BK helps Miccy's team out more than Tibarn can help out the Hawk Army.

homer simpson d'oh + that facepalm.

what i meant was, he doesn't get credit for being an other.

"dreaded" 3-6? ever heard of chu--Nolan? Yeah, he does rape some major shit on 1-E but does Tibarn's 4-E beat that? becuase i think Tibarns 4-2 beats BKs 3-6 and tibarns 4-5 beats BK's 1-E. again, just me.

[Narga_Rocks]

somebody seems to be forgetting that Tib's authority stars actually work in 4-2 and 4-5 and he gets another 20 avo. Also there is pavise and the ability to just OHKO any crossbow users with Tear before they can attack thanks to his mighty 10 move and ability to fly over things. His chance of even being hit by the crossbow guy is a lot lower than you are giving him credit for. Anyway, I'll try to change some things around.

For now, Nolan, Neph (T), and Zihark will all be below the hawks, with Nolan > Zihark > Neph (T). Neph (T) probably deserves to go up, but there hasn't actually been a good argument for it, yet. (dondon, yours was like an intro)

Oliver to top of bottom.

I don't actually want to move Elincia unless someone sees how many levels you can get her. Quite frankly, if you can get her enough before 4-E-1 then she's got the offence we assumed back when she got placed there. BK can be Nailah Ferried up to the top where his 1-2 range will come in handy in 1-E.

What else?

can somebody please at least make an argument for Tormod > stefan/volke before they get moved anywhere? And does anybody think Rolf (T) can level fast enough to work? Remember, he only needs like 6 levels (sometimes 7) by 3-7 to match shinon, and along the way depending on how it goes he'll be just as good in other chapters. Particularly ones like 3-2 and 3-5. Whether he stays in upper mid is heavily dependent on how quickly he can compete with shinon.

Edited July 6, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[RNG Princess]

somebody seems to be forgetting that Tib's authority stars actually work in 4-2 and 4-5 and he gets another 20 avo. Also there is pavise and the ability to just OHKO any crossbow users with Tear before they can attack thanks to his mighty 10 move and ability to fly over things. His chance of even being hit by the crossbow guy is a lot lower than you are giving him credit for. Anyway, I'll try to change some things around.

For now, Nolan, Neph (T), and Zihark will all be below the hawks, with Nolan > Zihark > Neph (T). Neph (T) probably deserves to go up, but there hasn't actually been a good argument for it, yet. (dondon, yours was like an intro)

Oliver to top of bottom.

I don't actually want to move Elincia unless someone sees how many levels you can get her. Quite frankly, if you can get her enough before 4-E-1 then she's got the offence we assumed back when she got placed there. BK can be Nailah Ferried up to the top where his 1-2 range will come in handy in 1-E.

What else?

can somebody please at least make an argument for Tormod > stefan/volke before they get moved anywhere? And does anybody think Rolf (T) can level fast enough to work? Remember, he only needs like 6 levels (sometimes 7) by 3-7 to match shinon, and along the way depending on how it goes he'll be just as good in other chapters. Particularly ones like 3-2 and 3-5. Whether he stays in upper mid is heavily dependent on how quickly he can compete with shinon.

I was wondering who was better between Tibarn and BK

since BK is excellent in 2 chapters, and so is Tibarn(excluding endgame).

About Rolf I think he can be raised that much without slowing down. 3-1 and 3-2 would be great chapters to give him plenty of attention, because there's going to be left over kills. 3-3 He's a possible choice over Heather, and 3-4 he would be a decent candidate and Ranulf can weaken things for him. I say yes.

Edited July 6, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Fenrir]

somebody seems to be forgetting that Tib's authority stars actually work in 4-2 and 4-5 and he gets another 20 avo. Also there is pavise and the ability to just OHKO any crossbow users with Tear before they can attack thanks to his mighty 10 move and ability to fly over things. His chance of even being hit by the crossbow guy is a lot lower than you are giving him credit for. Anyway, I'll try to change some things around.

For now, Nolan, Neph (T), and Zihark will all be below the hawks, with Nolan > Zihark > Neph (T). Neph (T) probably deserves to go up, but there hasn't actually been a good argument for it, yet. (dondon, yours was like an intro)

Oliver to top of bottom.

I don't actually want to move Elincia unless someone sees how many levels you can get her. Quite frankly, if you can get her enough before 4-E-1 then she's got the offence we assumed back when she got placed there. BK can be Nailah Ferried up to the top where his 1-2 range will come in handy in 1-E.

What else?

can somebody please at least make an argument for Tormod > stefan/volke before they get moved anywhere? And does anybody think Rolf (T) can level fast enough to work? Remember, he only needs like 6 levels (sometimes 7) by 3-7 to match shinon, and along the way depending on how it goes he'll be just as good in other chapters. Particularly ones like 3-2 and 3-5. Whether he stays in upper mid is heavily dependent on how quickly he can compete with shinon.

It's insane how much stuff you know about this game, you should change your name to nargas_wise. I will be using Elincia with paragon on my current PT, her and lucia will be sharing the kills but i have really bad strategies for 4-2 and 4-5, regardless i'll give you what level she got too, as something.

Something is finnally happening XD

EDIT: you should change the thign that says bottom(4) to, bottom(5)...lol here i thought you were smart XP

Edited July 6, 2010 by Fenrir

[grandjackal]

Here's an argument for Tormod. He's helping in 1-7, 8 and E before he gets binned. What have Volke and Stefan done for you lately outside of being fillers?

[-Cynthia-]

Yeah, how is Tormod a tier below Muarim again? Muarim has better Mov (less so in 1-7) and better durability, but that's about it (I think there are a few enemies in 1-8 and 1-E Muarim might double that Tormod doesn't).

In exchange, Muarim has to deal with gauge (he can't use 1 range enemies to get gauge and there are no laguz stones) and doesn't have 1-2 range. Tormod's durability isn't a big deal IMO, he's like 3-4HKOd and the hit rates on him aren't that great, plus he can avoid counters.

For that matter, why is Geoffrey a tier below Muarim? Geoffrey is our best unit in 2-3 and 3-9 (Brave Lance offense+ betetr durability than most). Muarim is pretty good in 1-7 (though this is the easiest DB map by far), doesn't help much to clear 1-8, and is double outjeiganed in 1-E.

Also with Muarim, you have more Exp issues. What I mean is we generally don't care where the Exp the CRKs get goes because we're probably dropping them anyway after 3-9. Giving Muarim kills instead of people like Nolan and Jill might screw us over for Part 3.

Muarim might be marginally better in 4-4 than Geoffrey is in 4-5, but Muarim is pretty bad in 4-4 so it doesn't really matter (Tormod is worse). Geoffrey is probably more salvagable for 4-E.

Basically, Muarim has one chapter where he's pretty good but you don't really need him anyway, then one where he kills like one guy before the chapter ends due to gauge issues then Nailah does his job better in 1-E and I'm not sure having an inferior version actually helps at all.

[dondon151]

Neph (T) probably deserves to go up, but there hasn't actually been a good argument for it, yet. (dondon, yours was like an intro)

I don't particularly see the need for a detailed evaluation considering that Neph (T) vs. enemies is basically like Mia (N) vs. enemies except for SMs. Add in that she gets 2-1 all to herself (which IIRC is a big deal) and is ideal for blocking on 2-2 and 2-E, and it's pretty simple seeing how she compares to Mia.

[Narga_Rocks]

EDIT: you should change the thign that says bottom(4) to, bottom(5)...lol here i thought you were smart XP

smart but lazy. Be impressed that I changed the units in the spoilers and not just the one you can see without clicking.

I'll go do it now.

Anyway, I've always wanted Tormod, Kieran, Geoffrey, Muarim in the same tier. Probably lower mid, but I suppose mid is possible. Thoughts, all?

And anyone else willing to comment on Rolf's exp gains (when you try to raise him)?

Anyway, if nobody objects I'd be willing to move Neph(T) at least over Zihark.

[-Cynthia-]

Mid makes a lot more sense than sticking them in Lower Mid IMO.

Think of it this way, Cain/Giffca essentially have 2 chapters where they exist. I'm thinking Geoffrey not existing in 2-3 and 3-9 will hurt us more in turncount than them being replaced with Volke/Stefan/whatever other filler we come up with for 4-E.

[grandjackal]

Nice to see that Tormod/Keiran/Geoff/Muarim get credit for hte 1 or 2 chapters they're actually doing to save turns, yet still a tier up on Eddie.

If they go to mid, Eddie goes with them.