OMG it's a tier list

[Zkirsche]

^ Hasn't anyone considered using Celerity on Gatrie if his Mov is heavy?

Apparently the +2 mov on Haar comes in handy. Although fixing the only problem Gatrie has shouldn't be that bad.

[Junkhead]

I don't see how Haar needs help with already great Mov. Gatrie might just outclass Paladins because of that.

[Florete]

Celerity is great on Haar because he can fly over more stuff. Nobody else is going to drop Ike in 3-4, or burn stuff in 3-3, or bosskill in 3-5, or fly over all the stuff in 3-11.

But Haar can do all that without Celerity. Seriously, I'd rather have 8 move foot unit and one 9 move flier that can both rape things, the 8 move eventually getting to double as well, than a 6 and 11. The extra move for Haar feels superfluous. I usually give Reyson Celerity myself, but he doesn't show until 3-5 anyway (a chapter he arguably doesn't even need it).

[nflchamp]

The bigger problem is that I'd rather just make a 7 move unit have 9 mov to keep up with my other 9 mov units rather than make a 6 mov an 8 mov.

[Junkhead]

That just sounds like a preference. A rather uneeded one too, that could help out another character inmensely.

[Colonel M]

The general problem is that Tier 3 Gatrie can't rape as, you stated, he cannot be Rescued by your Paladins. This leaves Haar (+ Paladins ehile Gatrie is Tier 2) that are able to carry him around. It also doesn't help that he's shoveable either, which is something that could at least alleviate the problem. Also, Gatrie's other problems involve hogging Haar Airlines or taking Celerity. If you can reach Haar's Spd cap he can double Warriors as an added bonus (IIRC they go around 21-22 AS, but I could be wrong). I will, however, concede on this: if you aren't training Nephenee or Oscar, Gatrie could have a crown. I guess my issue is with the Crown Haar becomes a total badass. Gatrie does too, but he needs help via transportation or Celerity. Plus the Crown.

[Junkhead]

But is Celerity on Haar really *need it* to go fast? And how much turns does it save you?

[RNG Princess]

I don't see why Gatrie can't have Celerity at least for 3-4 or 3-7(which is an "improvement" chapter).

The only other person that needs celerity in 3-4 would be Ike but Haar can easily rescue and drop Ike, and thats without Haar having celerity. Ranulf could use celerity but Pass seems better on him, maybe Kyza or Heather can use celerity but I don't understand why its such a biggie for Gatrie to use it since he's a very good fighter with both enemy and player phase (unlike Shinnon). Titania and Oscar certainly don't need celerity for 3-4 and they can't climb ledges anyway.

Although Haar could benefit from celerity for 3-7.

and I usually have him collect a little bit of CEXP in 3-5 anyway, its a little but it helps.

Edited September 3, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Colonel M]

Here, if it helps decide, this is when Celerity is needed on Haar / other units:

- 3-2 to drop Mia / Ike to kill the boss safely.

- 3-3 to carry Gatrie and set supplies on fire. Note that Haar does need it or he'll get attacked by the Thunder Sage / Hand Axe General.

- 3-5. Not much explanation for this one.

- 3-8 to bypass the -2 Mov penalty and thus keep up with the Hawks.

- 3-11 a Hawk takes it so he can airdrop Ike and reach the Seal Wind Sage on Turn 2 while killing a Fire Sage beforehand (which btw only requires a Hand Axe to be flung at the Hawk on the Enemy Phase)

That's pretty much all. That leaves 3-4, 3-7, and maaaaybe 3-9 though I found the +2 Mov pretty helpful. That isn't a lot of chapters where Gatrie can really hold Celerity.

[RNG Princess]

Here, if it helps decide, this is when Celerity is needed on Haar / other units:

- 3-2 to drop Mia / Ike to kill the boss safely.

- 3-3 to carry Gatrie and set supplies on fire. Note that Haar does need it or he'll get attacked by the Thunder Sage / Hand Axe General.

- 3-5. Not much explanation for this one.

- 3-8 to bypass the -2 Mov penalty and thus keep up with the Hawks.

- 3-11 a Hawk takes it so he can airdrop Ike and reach the Seal Wind Sage on Turn 2 while killing a Fire Sage beforehand (which btw only requires a Hand Axe to be flung at the Hawk on the Enemy Phase)

That's pretty much all. That leaves 3-4, 3-7, and maaaaybe 3-9 though I found the +2 Mov pretty helpful. That isn't a lot of chapters where Gatrie can really hold Celerity.

Thats something at least so he could keep up. I like that in 3-3 he gets to face more action thanks to Haar.

[Narga_Rocks]

The general problem is that Tier 3 Gatrie can't rape as, you stated, he cannot be Rescued by your Paladins. This leaves Haar (+ Paladins ehile Gatrie is Tier 2) that are able to carry him around. It also doesn't help that he's shoveable either, which is something that could at least alleviate the problem. Also, Gatrie's other problems involve hogging Haar Airlines or taking Celerity. If you can reach Haar's Spd cap he can double Warriors as an added bonus (IIRC they go around 21-22 AS, but I could be wrong). I will, however, concede on this: if you aren't training Nephenee or Oscar, Gatrie could have a crown. I guess my issue is with the Crown Haar becomes a total badass. Gatrie does too, but he needs help via transportation or Celerity. Plus the Crown.

Um, why can't Paladins rescue Gatrie? Even Fiona has 31 wt in tier 1. A horse has 24 wt, and a unit's con + that is more than enough unless you have like 2 con. And a Paladin's horse is even more, and a Gold/Silver Knight is even more. Well, actually the horse is probably +20 wt and the armor is another 4, 5, or 6 depending on which tier the unit is. Anyway, I was saying that of the flying units, only Haar, Jill, and Tibarn can pick up Gatrie. Paladins can do so rather easily. I think some have more than 10 wt to spare, though perhaps not.

[Zkirsche]

- 3-8 to bypass the -2 Mov penalty and thus keep up with the Hawks.

That isn't enough reasoning IMO, as Gatrie can use the +2 mov to keep up as well.

[Anouleth]

That isn't enough reasoning IMO, as Gatrie can use the +2 mov to keep up as well.

Gatrie can't fly over terrain and bypass the chokepoints. He also lacks Canto and is still locked to 8 move which is slightly lower than the Hawks, plus, he can't drop someone in a good location.

[Colonel M]

Um, why can't Paladins rescue Gatrie? Even Fiona has 31 wt in tier 1. A horse has 24 wt, and a unit's con + that is more than enough unless you have like 2 con. And a Paladin's horse is even more, and a Gold/Silver Knight is even more. Well, actually the horse is probably +20 wt and the armor is another 4, 5, or 6 depending on which tier the unit is. Anyway, I was saying that of the flying units, only Haar, Jill, and Tibarn can pick up Gatrie. Paladins can do so rather easily. I think some have more than 10 wt to spare, though perhaps not.

I thought you said they didn't?...

...Maybe it was the Hawks. Yeah the Paladins can pick him up my bad.

Hm, we need a play log perhaps on this one. Replacing Nephenee with him. Maybe I'll look into it again and try not to promote Haar early to see what happens.

That isn't enough reasoning IMO, as Gatrie can use the +2 mov to keep up as well.

What Anouleth said.

Edited September 4, 2010 by Tyranel M

[Florete]

Is Haar w/Celerity so necessary that Gatrie taking it away will put a serious dent on our turn count? Somehow I doubt it.

We are using Gatrie. Give Gatrie Celerity. Haar doesn't get it? Oh well. It ought to be worth the trade-off since it makes Gatrie, who we are actually discussing (and Haar is still higher anyway), much, much easier to use. Whoever he is being compared against can be on a team where Haar has it, if they like. If it's someone like Shinon, I still doubt it's going to help him win.

[Colonel M]

Is Haar w/Celerity so necessary that Gatrie taking it away will put a serious dent on our turn count? Somehow I doubt it.

We are using Gatrie. Give Gatrie Celerity. Haar doesn't get it? Oh well. It ought to be worth the trade-off since it makes Gatrie, who we are actually discussing (and Haar is still higher anyway), much, much easier to use. Whoever he is being compared against can be on a team where Haar has it, if they like. If it's someone like Shinon, I still doubt it's going to help him win.

The impact is still there. By giving Gatrie Celerity and not Haar, you possibly cost more turns with the impact. Even if you view it as "1 turn extra per chapter", that's over 7 turns to begin with. But either way, I'm willing to prove my point. I'll finish 3-E and attempt to save it, then go back to 3-2 to test the theory.

I am unsure about him being under Shinon perhaps, but he's probably worthy to be slid under the hawks.

[nflchamp]

I know I helped along this Celerity tangent, but I need feel the need to bring up again the main point - why does Gatrie get the Crown in this new lower turn count age?

[Colonel M]

I know I helped along this Celerity tangent, but I need feel the need to bring up again the main point - why does Gatrie get the Crown in this new lower turn count age?

I'm only going to play a semi-assumption card on this one, so forgive me for this. The best way to interpret this is if you want Haar to naturally cap Spd while at Tier 2, then waiting for a crown by 3-7 or by 3-11(?). You could also just put the Wing on Haar after he promotes, which gives him at the absolute worst 26 Spd, but I guess it is something that is noteworthy. Eh, I can see where Haar doesn't necessarily "need" the crown, but it sure as hell helps. He definitely needs 24-25 AS by 3-8 and 3-10 since they are Routs, though Tier 3 Titania can thankfully help with the Warriors having 21 Spd issue.

Basically, you are dropping Nephenee for Gatrie, if that makes sense. Though I'd probably look at Boyd w/Resolve first... but 18 Spd is pretty freaking horrible.

Edited September 5, 2010 by Tyranel M

[Florete]

The impact is still there. By giving Gatrie Celerity and not Haar, you possibly cost more turns with the impact. Even if you view it as "1 turn extra per chapter", that's over 7 turns to begin with. But either way, I'm willing to prove my point. I'll finish 3-E and attempt to save it, then go back to 3-2 to test the theory.

I am unsure about him being under Shinon perhaps, but he's probably worthy to be slid under the hawks.

I highly doubt it's even 1 turn per chapter. Hell, I think it's entirely possible that giving Celerity to Haar over Gatrie is actually the inferior option depending on the map. Don't forget that giving Gatrie Celerity does help the team since he's a defensive monster, and eventually an offensive one as well.

Under the Hawks is fine with me. I just think under Shinon is too low, and Upper Mid (especially with Shinon where he is) is most definitely too low.

I know I helped along this Celerity tangent, but I need feel the need to bring up again the main point - why does Gatrie get the Crown in this new lower turn count age?

This is new? Unless you mean the whole "get the minimum possible turn count or else" mindset, which I'm pretty sure is not what is supposed to be applied in this list.

[Interceptor]

You know, I hate Generals and low-MV units as much as the next guy, but seriously, considering Gatrie as an Upper-Mid unit is taking the optimal low-turn doctrine JUST A BIT FAR. He may constrain Haar occasionally because of Celerity, or not be super-doritos for the crown anymore, but he does still have some concrete positive contributions to the team.

[Anouleth]

You know, I hate Generals and low-MV units as much as the next guy, but seriously, considering Gatrie as an Upper-Mid unit is taking the optimal low-turn doctrine JUST A BIT FAR. He may constrain Haar occasionally because of Celerity, or not be super-doritos for the crown anymore, but he does still have some concrete positive contributions to the team.

Well, this is the thing - if in the New Era of Low-Turn-Counts, Gatrie is left behind a lot, then he runs into other roadblocks. He gains levels more slowly and won't hit his speed cap for longer, which puts him even further down on the list for a Crown, which retards his speed for both Part 3 and Part 4, which in turn, makes us less likely to give him the Celerity skill since he's not the ORKOing monster we generally assume him to be. Why should Haar miss out on Celerity just so Gatrie can dig himself out of his pit?

[Zkirsche]

And thus begins our trip down the slippery slope...

[grandjackal]

And thus begins our trip down the slippery slope...

Slippery slope down to what? Is it really a shocker to realize that Armors are handicapped just on their class alone? Even I have to stop hyping armors at some point. I could argue Boyd makes a better unit to field than Gatrie just on support alone if we realize that Gatrie actually is gonna have problems leveling (Suddenly, Shinon with the right weapons and this support is more or less garunteed to kill what he aims at. What is Gatrie's Light gonna do for the team?). Sure, Boyd has no future, but it beats Gatrie having no present. It's not exactly the end of the world if we don't use Gatrie, nor is it the end of the world to toss Boyd once we're done with him.

No, I'm not saying Boyd should shoot up. All I'm saying is what're we losing from not losing him? Not much, IMO. By the time he starts getting good, it's probably at the time that we got Haar/Ti/Hawks/Ike tearing the place apart (like they weren't before, save hte hawks not existing), Shinon's doing his thing, and soon we're about to have guys like the royals join up, along with being limited to Ike's army (Hawk Army has barely any use for him, Gatrie doesn't want to go to the desert, so I hope he has fun in the Oliver chapter with his 6 move and the ledges) and being useless in Endgame.

[Zkirsche]

But Haar/Ti/Ike are already above Gatrie so thats moot, and it seems agreed on already that he raise above the hawks. Int and I's problem with Gatrie moving to upper mid is that it puts him in the same league as Oscar/Boyd who have trouble with thier offence/defence capabilities.

I mean, one of the many reasons why Haar is given celerity is to rescue drop better. If thats true, who better to rescue drop than Gatrie? Ike/Mia will die by themselves (Yes, even Ike isn't that durable), and Shinon has no enemy phase. I'd liek to see Boyd/Nephenee do as much as Gatrie can through doing this.

I hope he has fun in the Oliver chapter with his 6 move and the ledges

More fun that Oscar has with the ledges, I assure you.

Edited September 5, 2010 by Zwiebel

[Anouleth]

Slippery slope down to what? Is it really a shocker to realize that Armors are handicapped just on their class alone? Even I have to stop hyping armors at some point. I could argue Boyd makes a better unit to field than Gatrie just on support alone if we realize that Gatrie actually is gonna have problems leveling (Suddenly, Shinon with the right weapons and this support is more or less garunteed to kill what he aims at. What is Gatrie's Light gonna do for the team?). Sure, Boyd has no future, but it beats Gatrie having no present. It's not exactly the end of the world if we don't use Gatrie, nor is it the end of the world to toss Boyd once we're done with him.

Well, look at someone like Boyd (T). 24STR/20SPD, plus he can start BEXPing after he caps HP for str/skl/spd/def. Lower base level, higher movement, and a speed cap that doesn't make me want to puke. Admittedly, his growth spread is inferior and his defense base sucks, but I don't think the difference between them amounts to an entire tier.

And his future is suprisingly solid. Boyd (T) has no compunction about waiting for a late crown, since he's never going to hit his cap without a Wing, but if Gatrie goes into Part 4 freshly crowned, he's going to stink with 25 or 26AS.

No, I'm not saying Boyd should shoot up. All I'm saying is what're we losing from not losing him? Not much, IMO. By the time he starts getting good, it's probably at the time that we got Haar/Ti/Hawks/Ike tearing the place apart (like they weren't before, save hte hawks not existing), Shinon's doing his thing, and soon we're about to have guys like the royals join up, along with being limited to Ike's army (Hawk Army has barely any use for him, Gatrie doesn't want to go to the desert, so I hope he has fun in the Oliver chapter with his 6 move and the ledges) and being useless in Endgame.

My problem with all of this is that we're assuming too much. I don't like to assume deployment for anyone who isn't Ike or someone so useful you have to use them (like Volug and Sothe in certain Part 1 chapters, or Rutger for boss-killing in FE6), because it's the first step on the road to an optimal deployment tier list.