OMG it's a tier list

[incognit0]

A question I have about DB part 3 is whether or not it is efficient to keep the Dawn Brigade's Paragon for part 3. Ilyana is sending over Celerity, Savior, Hammer, Brave Sword, Speedwings, Adept, Blue Gem, Arms Scroll and I don't think I'm missing anything so Paragon for the last slot.

I still think you could get good turn counts on 3-6 with this skill configuration:

Nolan: Wrath Vantage

Volug: Wildheart Resolve

Jill: Beastfoe

Jill takes the north (she should be able to limit the amount of laguz she faces on enemy phase) and with two robes, one after promotion, she is able to take two tigers at around 20/4 (as soon as she gets 44 HP 18 Def). Jill starts OHKOing cats at 20/4 with a max MT steel forge, and she doesn't take a counter at 20/1 from tigers with the brave axe, since with the energy drop she has 51 might with the brave axe and quadruples.

Nolan is MUCH worse than before I admit, but if he goes west with Volug they can easily shoulder the load. Volug should have 21 wildheart speed if you finished off a level of BEXP because he should proc speed (reset if he doesn't. is it really a big deal?). I say wildheart + resolve because as long as his AVO holds up (if he has B Nolan he will be fine) he can take a lot. 85 AVO with a support before Bio and terrain and 105 resolve AVO. He is 2HKO'ed by tigers so don't let him face two on enemy phase when he doesn't have bio in his favor. I say wildheart because staying transformed means more strike WEXP but that is something that is easily removable to increase his offense and defensive capacities.

20/3 Nolan (this is a guess) has 83 AVO (with B volug) before bio and terrain. He needs to have 41 HP and 16 Def to be 3HKO'ed by tigers with Tarvos (20/7 or maybe 20/6) and survives tiger + cat with 40 HP and 15 def (20/5). He 2HKOs cats with a max steel forge and forever 3HKOs tigers, except for 52HP 20 Def which 20/3 Nolan leaves with 1 HP when attacking with Tarvos but 20/6 Nolan 3HKOs.

Then in 3-12 I doubt the extra levels from Paragon are that much of a help, and as long as Volug can double Ike in 3-13 (with 2 levels finished with BEXP for 30 SPD) I think you can get a relatively similar count there. Jill and Nolan should go to Micaiah's route and get Paragon and get crowned in the middle of 4-P (actually losing a turn is not that bad; they get most kills from enemy phase and crowns restore them to full hp).

Seems like Paragon is better used to get the mercs into tip-top shape for part 4, as well as just in generally allowing characters to be better trained/more characters to be trained. Maybe I'm just overrating the effect paragon has on the mercs.

Sorry for the wall of text. This is all hypothetical. I would do an efficiency playlog if people aren't getting too tired of those...

[Junkhead]

Considering turncounts in Part 1, Volug is no way getting a B support with Nolan by 3-6. Even Zihark has trouble getting there.

As for Wildheart on Volug, it's a bad idea. While he IS able to double Tigers, the problem is his Atk. It will be pretty awful. Buying an Olivi Grass in Part 1 doesn't hurt.

Edited September 8, 2010 by The Leaving Song

[incognit0]

I don't care about his ATK. Wildheart is to keep him transformed/increase his strike. He has 30 ATK which is terrible but he does 16 DMG to cats and 20 DMG to tigers. He will 3HKO tigers but once he is in resolve he 2RKOs cats which is passable. If Leo chips at a lvl 15 cat then Resolve Wildheart Volug finishes it. Beastkiller Sothe can also help combo for kills. Jill is so awesome with two robes, a drop and beastfoe that she basically replaces Nolan in being able to solo the north with healer support.

You can take it off and it might be better that way, but I've always had great success with Wildheart helping strike rank. It's an option. I was more interested in exploring why the DB gets Paragon.

Edited September 8, 2010 by incognito123

[Junkhead]

I don't care about his ATK. Wildheart is to keep him transformed/increase his strike. He has 30 ATK which is terrible but he does 16 DMG to cats and 20 DMG to tigers. He will 3HKO tigers but once he is in resolve he 2RKOs cats which is passable. If Leo chips at a lvl 15 cat then Resolve Wildheart Volug finishes it. Beastkiller Sothe can also help combo for kills. Jill is so awesome with two robes, a drop and beastfoe that she basically replaces Nolan in being able to solo the north with healer support.

You can take it off and it might be better that way, but I've always had great success with Wildheart helping strike rank. It's an option. I was more interested in exploring why the DB gets Paragon.

You don't care, but we do.

Either way, he's building his strike rank. Transformed or not. It's worth one turn on having him with Olivi Grasses. His offense is great.

[incognit0]

I meant that I planned on him comboing with scrubs (Sothe, Leo, Micaiah when she isn't healing) for kills. It really doesn't make a difference for me if you choose to go without wildheart and transform on turn three (with S strike he can't use the 0 dmg trick). Whether it is better to have him use Wildheart or not is not the point. That is highly dependent on whether or not you can still kill laguz fast with wildheart and without doing a playthrough I wouldn't know. My question is: why are we giving the DB paragon? Isn't it much better going to the mercs? They can only use it in 3-2 (Probably sending Titania north for self-improvement with Paragon) 3-3 (anyone? though it is not important here), 3-4(same as 3-3), and 3-5 (with one enemy phase whoop dee do) at first. But 3-7, 3-8, and 3-10 all have lots of CEXP and then having an extra paragon in 3-E is nice too.

Point is, there is more CEXP in the mercs chapters than in the DB's, even when considering that laguz give loads of CEXP. And you can distribute it among the characters who need it more because Nolan and Jill are fine going into part 4 in tier 2 and it doesn't slow the DB.

Edited September 9, 2010 by incognito123

[Junkhead]

Well then, I apologize for the rude wording.

I guess I have yet to test your method. I just thought most of us decided to remove Wildheart of Volug, for better results.

As for Paragon on the DB: We give it to either Nolan or Jill.

[Anouleth]

I meant that I planned on him comboing with scrubs (Sothe, Leo, Micaiah when she isn't healing) for kills. It really doesn't make a difference for me if you choose to go without wildheart and transform on turn three (with S strike he can't use the 0 dmg trick). Whether it is better to have him use Wildheart or not is not the point. That is highly dependent on whether or not you can still kill laguz fast with wildheart and without doing a playthrough I wouldn't know. My question is: why are we giving the DB paragon? Isn't it much better going to the mercs? They can only use it in 3-2 (Probably sending Titania north for self-improvement with Paragon) 3-3 (anyone? though it is not important here), 3-4(same as 3-3), and 3-5 (with one enemy phase whoop dee do) at first. But 3-7, 3-8, and 3-10 all have lots of CEXP and then having an extra paragon in 3-E is nice too.

It depends on who you want to train. Either way is good... but I'm inclined to lean towards keeping it. It allows you to get Super-Jill to hurricane through Chapter 3-12 and 3-13.

Point is, there is more CEXP in the mercs chapters than in the DB's, even when considering that laguz give loads of CEXP. And you can distribute it among the characters who need it more because Nolan and Jill are fine going into part 4 in tier 2 and it doesn't slow the DB.

Jill and Nolan are not fine going into Part 4 as tier 2 units. They're awful, since they're hampered by str/spd caps for a good time.

The mercs do have more CEXP available, but a lot of it isn't practical to make use of depending on how fast we play. In addition, it's very, very easy to funnel EXP into Jill or Nolan with the DB. So even though the DB have less EXP available, because it's distributed between only two or three dudes, Paragon is just as productive.

[incognit0]

Jill and Nolan are not fine going into Part 4 as tier 2 units. They're awful, since they're hampered by str/spd caps for a good time.

The mercs do have more CEXP available, but a lot of it isn't practical to make use of depending on how fast we play. In addition, it's very, very easy to funnel EXP into Jill or Nolan with the DB. So even though the DB have less EXP available, because it's distributed between only two or three dudes, Paragon is just as productive.

Now that I checked I was wrong, Jill is not OK. Nolan can get by at around 20/15 with Paragon because he can double a lot of the Paladins and manages some decent offense getting some ORKOs with Tarvos (though it would need to be Hammerned) but not consistently ORKOing all Paladins until third tier. Last time I ran through I had Nolan at 20/15, Jill at 18/15 and Ulki w/energy drop and S strike and they, along with Naesala managed a pretty clean 4 turn although it is a lot harder with Jill. Still she can get at least 1 player phase KO with Leanne, scrub chip and Horseslayer. Still, I guess Paragon works well because like you said the DB EXP is more concentrated.

[nflchamp]

Right, need to do this now or I'll forget.

I'm going to advocate moving Soren and Calill down to right under Tormod. Tormod is useful from 1-7 to 1-E as one of your stronger units (mostly 1-7 and 1-8). He also comes back in 4-4 and can do some useful stuff like meteor a door open or eat a sleep charge before dying.

Soren and Calill are only ever going to provide decent chip for their entire careers. This chip is never particularly useful. All they have going for them is more chapters, but I don't think this is better than Tormod being one of your better units (namely in 1-7 and 1-8).

[Soren37]

If anything, Calill should be above Soren. Calill has the ability to Meteor drop Ludveck if Haar or Elincia have trouble. Soren has chip and nothing else.

[nflchamp]

If anything, Calill should be above Soren. Calill has the ability to Meteor drop Ludveck if Haar or Elincia have trouble. Soren has chip and nothing else.

Skrimir

Kieran (T - Str, Skl, Spd)

Makalov (T - Str, Spd, Def)

Tanith

Kieran

Calill (N/T)

Soren

Despite the fact I disagree with Calill > Soren, the list currently has it and I'm not calling for that to change. So, for now, I don't know why you brought that up.

[Junkhead]

If anything, Calill should be above Soren. Calill has the ability to Meteor drop Ludveck if Haar or Elincia have trouble. Soren has chip and nothing else.

It's the same story for Callil. Except she's only contributing for one or two chapters. And while she may be able to drop Meteor on Ludveck, her Hit is a little shaky IIRC. Soren has more chapters of contribution.

[Soren37]

126 Hit (130 with SKL Transfer) against 60 Avo. 66 Hit (76.54 True). It's not that shaky.

So now it's a competition of availability between the two, with Soren being the obvious winner, but Tormod provides a lot more to his 3 chapters of play when compared to Soren's constant chip and Calill's 1 chapter of semi-usefulness. If anything, she can block the wall that's able to be broken.

[Interceptor]

126 Hit (130 with SKL Transfer) against 60 Avo. 66 Hit (76.54 True). It's not that shaky.

First of all, Calill has 137 HIT in 2-Endgame. I have no idea where on earth you get a figure of 126, but it's wrong. Secondly, Ludveck has 58 avoid. Your corrected listed hit rate with Meteor is 79, or 91.39% True. You ought to have also looked at biorhythm, but for the most part Calill and Ludveck will track each other for the first few turns, so it's moot.

But anyway. that corrected figure is not shaky, but you were right for the wrong reasons. The old calculated figure is bad. We're not talking about hitting free throws here, where ~77% is good, we're talking about Fire Emblem, where it means you miss one time out of every four. That's terrible in a game where some people basically don't know how to miss at all.

[Soren37]

Dammit, I could've sworn I got it right. Let me double check.

Yeah, you got it right. I messed up on the Leadership. I got different information from two different sites, and it messed me up.

Anyways, with 91.39%, that's almost a guaranteed hit. I still don't think that her Meteor can out-do Tormod's Part 1 assistance or Soren's chip.

[Smiling Knight]

Why haven't Mist(T), Mist and Rhys moved closer together? It seemed that at least Rhys was arguably better and certainly not a tier worse.

[Narga_Rocks]

Why haven't Mist(T), Mist and Rhys moved closer together? It seemed that at least Rhys was arguably better and certainly not a tier worse.

I've been busy? It will get done when it gets done. Can't I just have a few more days of looking at Mist(T) in upper mid?

[Soren37]

It was settled that Mist(N) and Rhys(N/T) would be slashed, with Mist(T) one space above them.

[Colonel M]

It was settled that Mist(N) and Rhys(N/T) would be slashed, with Mist(T) one space above them.

No, it was not settled like that. People wanted it because it was the "easy way out". I also disagree with even Mist (T) being above Rhys.

[Soren37]

Mist(T) doesn't get doubled when you start. Rhys does. This allows her to live longer, and prevents you from having a dead character on your hands. It may be the easy way out, or we can go through another 10-20 pages of people hissing and spitting over +10 MAG vs. Canto and +3 MOV. That's all Mist vs. Rhys has boiled down to.

[Colonel M]

Okay, now tell me when she reasonably gets the horse, as otherwise it's +5 Physic range (hint at this is the most important thing) vs. +1 Mov. And, technically, Rhys gets killed in two hits since it takes 34 Atk to actually OHKO him, and enemies can miss that over an occasion with the exception of Warriors, so if the enemy is in KO range he can still survive a round. I understand this is grasping at straws, but even Mist surviving a round is pretty damn close to grasping at a straw. Rhys also can actually do damage versus enemies, which is kind of important in 3-P and 3-1 when you need to exercise just about every unit to KO enemies, including Generals which the Greil Mercenaries have a rough time taking on. Gatrie may take on the South end of the map in 3-1, but there's still Generals as reinforcements. Furthermore, her being easier to shove is nothing when most units can Shove Rhys anyway while Rhys can also Shove Shinon and Ulki around.

Really, there is very little that keeps Mist above Rhys other than Transfer being able to "get out of a doubling rut faster" which is semi-irrelevant when healer's first course of action is to never get attacked in the first place. I can't even think of a time when Rhys taking an extra hit was ever very usefl.

[Soren37]

The earliest she can promote in a HM efficiency run is 4-1, when she gets the Holy Crown, unless we shower her with favouritism, which is against the rules. BEXP up to 99 is possible, but Ike, Mia, and Neph will want the BEXP more. So 4-1 is about the earliest.

So you're essentially saying that they all should be slashed, or at least have Rhys > Mist?

Mist also provides a valuable Water support, which means that she can ride on Titania's horse and constantly give a +1 ATK/DEF boost to Titan, who will appreciate it. After that, that's it.

[Colonel M]

The earliest she can promote in a HM efficiency run is 4-1, when she gets the Holy Crown, unless we shower her with favouritism, which is against the rules. BEXP up to 99 is possible, but Ike, Mia, and Neph will want the BEXP more. So 4-1 is about the earliest.

I'm going to gather all of the current play logs that at least got up to 3-E and show the levels for Mist.

Myself: Mist (3.55)

Interceptor: (7.45)

nflchamp: (6.87) - Outside of 3-E

dondon151: (9.32) - Outside of 3-E

dondon also placed Paragon on Mist and spammed the hell out of the Recover staff, on top of 0 growths whatsoever. Even assuming she promotes in 4-1 is a little ridiculous.

So you're essentially saying that they all should be slashed, or at least have Rhys > Mist?

No, I'm saying Mist should be slashed with Rhys > Both Mists.

Mist also provides a valuable Water support, which means that she can ride on Titania's horse and constantly give a +1 ATK/DEF boost to Titan, who will appreciate it. After that, that's it.

Technically Rhys can play the same game with the only minor differences being a point of Defense at B and A, and the trade-off is +7 accuracy for Hammers. This also puts Mist in a lot of trouble with ever promoting by 4-1.

[Tables]

I'd like to point out as well that if Mist promotes in 4-1, then that means -2 move (still net +1 move) and no ledge climbing in 4-4. So really, it's more like Mist promotes partway into 4-4 unless you really need her on a horse for 4-1. Which means she gets her horse for 1/2 a chapter and never sees her +3 move unless she's taken to endgame (not sure if that's likely, I'd wager not as Elincia does her job, only better).

[Zkirsche]

Gatrie still hasn't moved below the hawks...