OMG it's a tier list

[Junkhead]

Again, that's only if you have Ike on worst and Volug on best. If not, if they are equal, you are looking at 20% listed. 8% is very much NOT "highly low". It is way to high to rely on for not dying. This is worse than most of dondon's RNG manipulations (at least, in RD. In fe6 there was a ton of forcing crits all over the place, but then it was probably necessary just for a decent completion time on 0% growths).

Maybe we just have a different view on what we consider as "reliable" and "unreliable" dodge. I still don't see that as a high chance of Volug dying.

And please, it was just a mistake on my wording. :(

Considering Jill is a perfectly safe method to finish and we rag on Aran for facing CODs in 1-4 when others aren't, the conclusion about Volug's COD in 3-13 should be rather obvious. And Zihark needs to crack 30 speed just to beat Volug's already risky situation. 12/1 to beat it negligibly. 13/1 still only beats it by 2 speed, so 2 * 1.5 * 2 = 6 avo. 14. And Nolan is arguably an easier way for Volug to reach A earth anyway.

I don't see how having Nolan, a unit with lower Spd and average concrete durability to be having better chance of survival than Zihark, a unit with very high Avo by then. (He's usually at High bio by then)

Oh, and what happens if Volug just happens to be in a bad bio comparison to Ike? Hmm? That 20 can rise to 40. 32.4% true. Surely you aren't about to tell me that one is "highly low".

Wrath + Resolve on Volug, anyone? I see this as a back up plan to not risk a death from Ike. And I'm sure Volug's dodge against laguz might remain reliable, given that he gets Resolve.

Edit: I apologize if my strategies seem a little too luck-based and suicidal. I just think this would help are turncounts and sitituations in which enemies just spawn until the chapter ends.

Edited September 23, 2010 by Totally not Hika's alt

[Soren37]

I don't see how having Nolan, a unit with lower Spd and average concrete durability to be having better chance of survival than Zihark, a unit with very high Avo by then. (He's usually at High bio by then)

What are you on? Nolan is by far one of the most durable DB members you have. Yes, Z has more SPD, but at 20/15 (assumed level of DB members in 3-13), then Nolan has 46 HP/19 DEF (rounded up)/13 RES. He'll have also capped a fair few of his stats, allowing you to BEXP up his SPD, LCK, and HP. At that level, Nolan has 60 Avo with a B support that is Earth/Something, and he's Doritos for Beastfoe, meaning he ORKOs everything that shows a hairy face.

And let's not forget about Tarvos. 23 DEF is amazing, considering he can now take 6 hits from the Cats WHILE DOUBLING. That's right, he's 6HKO'd while OHKOing in return. They'll hit him, that's not denied, but he's so tanky he doesn't care. He's 2RKO'd by the Tigers (once again ORKO's, though). The Hawks...you get the idea. Nolan is a tank.

Zihark at that same level has 36 HP/16 DEF/15 RES. How is this beating Nolan in concrete durability? The Avo is mentionable, though. With a whopping 120, but wait, there's no way to boost that, as we gave Resolve to Volug, and most of the laguz have a Hit rate higher than 150, meaning he's facing Hit rates of at least 30% (18.30% True), while handy, can still be a hit.

Also, Volug and Zihark have a difference of 2 MOV. While this may not seem like a lot, Volug has already run out of support range of Zihark. Bye bye 45 Avo.

Just rely on Nolan to tank for ~3 turns while Volug charges down.

[Narga_Rocks]

What are you on? Nolan is by far one of the most durable DB members you have. Yes, Z has more SPD, but at 20/15 (assumed level of DB members in 3-13), then Nolan has 46 HP/19 DEF (rounded up)/13 RES. He'll have also capped a fair few of his stats, allowing you to BEXP up his SPD, LCK, and HP. At that level, Nolan has 60 Avo with a B support that is Earth/Something, and he's Doritos for Beastfoe, meaning he ORKOs everything that shows a hairy face.

And let's not forget about Tarvos. 23 DEF is amazing, considering he can now take 6 hits from the Cats WHILE DOUBLING. That's right, he's 6HKO'd while OHKOing in return. They'll hit him, that's not denied, but he's so tanky he doesn't care. He's 2RKO'd by the Tigers (once again ORKO's, though). The Hawks...you get the idea. Nolan is a tank.

Zihark at that same level has 36 HP/16 DEF/15 RES. How is this beating Nolan in concrete durability? The Avo is mentionable, though. With a whopping 120, but wait, there's no way to boost that, as we gave Resolve to Volug, and most of the laguz have a Hit rate higher than 150, meaning he's facing Hit rates of at least 30% (18.30% True), while handy, can still be a hit.

Also, Volug and Zihark have a difference of 2 MOV. While this may not seem like a lot, Volug has already run out of support range of Zihark. Bye bye 45 Avo.

Just rely on Nolan to tank for ~3 turns while Volug charges down.

There's that, and besides that I was suggesting that it is easier to GET Nolan x Volug to A support. As in, they have an extra chapter so it is much easier considering the short duration of the upcoming chapters in which Zihark needs to find a way to get a bunch of adjacents.

Besides, what is wrath + Resolve doing for you, anyway? Unless you KO Ike on player phase, Ike still gets his shot on enemy phase. Then there's the whole 30% thing. Volug could easily end up at 30 to 50 % and then hit resolve and be unlikely to get hit down to wrath range. At best you are looking at maybe knocking that 8% down to like 5 or 6.

[Soren37]

There's that, and besides that I was suggesting that it is easier to GET Nolan x Volug to A support. As in, they have an extra chapter so it is much easier considering the short duration of the upcoming chapters in which Zihark needs to find a way to get a bunch of adjacents.

Besides, what is wrath + Resolve doing for you, anyway? Unless you KO Ike on player phase, Ike still gets his shot on enemy phase. Then there's the whole 30% thing. Volug could easily end up at 30 to 50 % and then hit resolve and be unlikely to get hit down to wrath range. At best you are looking at maybe knocking that 8% down to like 5 or 6.

Nolan x Volug are a 02. By the time they hit 6-2, they'll have hit a B rank, so it is possible for them to have an A rank by 3-13.

[Narga_Rocks]

Nolan x Volug are a 02. By the time they hit 6-2, they'll have hit a B rank, so it is possible for them to have an A rank by 3-13.

Huh?

I'm guessing you meant that they'll hit C rank by the end of 1-6-2, or something? Anyway, that's the general idea. In addition to the turn 1 adjacents, it takes 4 extra adjacents to reach C. Doable, but I'm not certain it is guaranteed. 1-5 Volug doesn't spend the first couple of turns anywhere near Nolan depending on your strategy. However, you could, perhaps, arrange for some points on turn 5 and 6. Then you need 2 extra adjacents at some point after turns 1 of 1-6-1 and 1-6-2. That gets you to a C. The B for 3-6 is really easy since turn 1 adjacents can definitely get you the 4 extra points needed (3 chapter bonuses from 1-7 to 1-E). I think the hardest part comes with needing 7 adjacents on 3-6 and 3-12. You get 2 for turn 1s, if you want, so that's 5 remaining. The others seem to be spending around 6 to 9 turns for 3-12 and 9+ for 3-6. You need 5 out of around 13 turns (turn 1s already used), so I suppose it's not completely unreasonable.

It's certainly easier than getting good ol' Z to a B by 3-6, considering what 1-8 and 1-E look like. I'd assume getting Ilyana up to that speedwing for fun with Titania also makes it more difficult. Perhaps if you didn't care about the wing then you could get Volug to carry Zihark for a bit. Assuming you again abuse the turn 1 adjacents, Zihark x Volug only need 3 more between 1-8 and 1-E. However, they pretty much all need to happen in 1-E.

[dondon151]

Then 8%, since that's approximately what 20 becomes with true hit. That + all the laguz he has to dodge in the area if he wants to keep living. Did you say Ike gets to move before them or after?

From what I can tell, untransformed laguz move, then Ike moves, then everyone else moves. At that point, the untransformed laguz probably only did so on the previous turn, so Ike attacks first on EP for all intents and purposes.

Also, the problem with relying on Wrath (as Narga pointed out in passing) is that it's extremely difficult to get Volug into Resolve AND Wrath range, since his durability is variable and Ike's offense is variable, in addition to having to manipulate his HP beforehand with hits, dodges, and Physic. Volug doesn't have the PP liberty to use healing items. This is already difficult enough if he has high avo, and Laura can only restore so much HP.

Additionally, if Volug starts PP in Wrath range, he has to hit Ike with both attacks and crit on one of them (hitting is not reliable even with Resolve or Parity and critting is not reliable with no innate crit and Soren giving +5 cev). If he doesn't ORKO Ike, Ike gets a free attack with Ragnell, which is a guaranteed OHKO on Volug at that point.

Edited September 25, 2010 by dondon151

[Junkhead]

Zihark at that same level has 36 HP/16 DEF/15 RES. How is this beating Nolan in concrete durability? The Avo is mentionable, though.

I never stated Zihark had better concrete durability than Nolan. Anyway, I just quoted the relevant part, since the rest of the post was trying to aknowledge me with stuff I already know.

I am finished arguing semi luck-based strategies, for now.

[Narga_Rocks]

I never stated Zihark had better concrete durability than Nolan. Anyway, I just quoted the relevant part, since the rest of the post was trying to aknowledge me with stuff I already know.

I am finished arguing semi luck-based strategies, for now.

I think Soren was pointing out that Zihark without Resolve (since you gave it to Volug) might as well be less durable than Nolan because Zihark's chance of dying in two hits is much too high. Nolan's chance of dying in 2 hits is 0. And Nolan can be given Beastfoe if you like for the ability to OHKO (Zihark can't get there, though Brave Sword would probably be able to 2HKO which isn't so bad, just much more limited due to weapon durability). Obviously OHKOing helps on player phase. And you don't need to trade his weapon before each enemy phase to preserve uses.

Then there's how cats like 6HKO or something so he could take a lot more tiger + cats or 2 tiger + cat or something in comparison to Zihark who needs a bunch of levels simply to prevent a 1 tiger + 1 cat combo from killing him.

[Junkhead]

Yes, that's what he meant.

I'll just take what you guys said since, I thought Volug x Nolan was much slower than Volug x Zihark. And all I had in defense for Zihark was crediting him for supporting Volug. :/

[Fenrir]

Has the idea of a speedrushing list completely died? i liked that idea, this one would be a little less about turncounts(still the main priority) but more about training and playing more casual, while the other list for beating it as fast as possible.

[Narga_Rocks]

Has the idea of a speedrushing list completely died? i liked that idea, this one would be a little less about turncounts(still the main priority) but more about training and playing more casual, while the other list for beating it as fast as possible.

No, this list would still not be "about training" or anything remotely casual. It just wouldn't assume that the only units ever deployed are the optimal one. And the other list wasn't about "speedrushing", it was about rating units under the assumption that they are only deployed if they are optimal.

I nominate Colonel M for running that list, though really anyone can do it I suppose.

[Fenrir]

No, this list would still not be "about training" or anything remotely casual. It just wouldn't assume that the only units ever deployed are the optimal one. And the other list wasn't about "speedrushing", it was about rating units under the assumption that they are only deployed if they are optimal.

I nominate Colonel M for running that list, though really anyone can do it I suppose.

hm, we might be talking about something different.

I vote dondon to do it :D

[Narga_Rocks]

hm, we might be talking about something different.

I vote dondon to do it :D

I think that dondon is unlikely to be willing to do so, or I would have suggested him since he is the person that seems most in favour of that type of list. I figure in a balance of ability and willingness, Colonel M is the optimal choice. Some might be more willing than he is, but I don't think I'd trust their competency for it. Some (one) might be even more competent, but I doubt they'd (he'd) be willing.

[Junkhead]

It has to be a he?

I'm voting for RFoF, if she's willing to. If not, I'll vote for you, Narga.

[Narga_Rocks]

It has to be a he?

I'm voting for RFoF, if she's willing to. If not, I'll vote for you, Narga.

Considering she (either temporarily or permanently) gave up control of this one, I somehow doubt she'd take the reigns of the other one. As for me, I don't want it, either.

I have, however, been tempted to make one and then wait until somebody posts. Once someone posts, I will copy the list into post #2, delete my post and thus someone else gets the joy of running the list and they'll appear to be the first poster. I think that works, anyway. It might delete the whole thread, though, so I'd have to simply move all the posts to a new topic. Either way, the second poster will become the list owner. I think that would be funny, anyway.

Oh, and yes, it has to be a he since I was specifically referring to dondon when I made that last sentence. Last time I checked, he's still claiming to be a "he".

[Florete]

I'm a little confused regarding this discussion. What's this "new list" that might be created? Or are we talking about an existing one?

[RNG Princess]

I'm sure dondon is more than competent. What about Interceptor? He's very competent as well if my vote counts either of those takes mine :).

[grandjackal]

I'm a little confused regarding this discussion. What's this "new list" that might be created? Or are we talking about an existing one?

Basically only assume the utmost optimal choices and decisions are being made.

To give you a vague idea of what that wold be like, take a gander over at the New Mystery tier list. Though at least New Mystery had the excuse that a specific team feels pretty forced on you. Then again, it's a reletively new game and people haven't tried too much to incorperate some later units in (Like Malice or Raiden). However, when I ran through the stats, that's a challenge in and of itself.

Basically if this idea were to be input, the tier list would pretty much be-

Units that actually make the difference

Geofferey and Keiran

Dumbshit useless units

As much as it would accurately describe an utmost optimal playthrough, it would be a pretty boring list to talk over. Then again, no one's really talked over lists in a while now, so...

[Fenrir]

I'm a little confused regarding this discussion. What's this "new list" that might be created? Or are we talking about an existing one?

Go as fast as you possibly can.

I'm sure dondon is more than competent. What about Interceptor? He's very competent as well if my vote counts either of those takes mine :).

I dont think int likes speedrushing, at least in those post he's made thts what ive guessed(please correct me if im wrong)

[Narga_Rocks]

I'm a little confused regarding this discussion. What's this "new list" that might be created? Or are we talking about an existing one?

Basically I'm unwilling to turn this list into one that assumes optimal deployment only ever, and hence if anyone wants to talk about it they'd better make a new topic.

Part of the reason I'm unwilling to change this one is that it still feels like it is "yours" and I'm only borrowing it. Don't want to mess with too much before the master of the house comes back and says "what kind of stupid colour is this that you put on my walls?"

Part of the reason is because I think a list like that would be boring.

I can't tell you which is the bigger part of my decision.

Oh, and GJ

Units that actually make the difference

Geofferey and Keiran

Dumbshit useless units

There aren't actually very many units in that last category.

Most units have a free chapter in which they can at least do something. Even if it's a couple of potshots. Even Astrid can shave a turn in 3-9 compared to not using her since she can finish something off so that the others can keep moving forward. I think the units that would make it to the last category are:

Lyre

Renning

Possibly Kyza, depending on whether you can deploy him in 3-4 and have him do something without costing turns

Even Oliver arguably needs to be above that. Technically, it is theoretically possible that you could have a set up in which Oliver gets recruited on the last turn, grabs a Physic off Rafiel and heals Ike or Mia so that they can KO the final unit without a COD. Or something. Since it is theoretically possible, he's pretty much looking at bottom of the category of "units that actually do something" and above "units that literally do nothing". And Stefan would be sitting immediately above Oliver since he gets to do so little in 4-3. Volke should probably be around that level, too, since you can finish 4-5 so quickly.

Edited September 27, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Junkhead]

Considering she (either temporarily or permanently) gave up control of this one, I somehow doubt she'd take the reigns of the other one. As for me, I don't want it, either.

I have, however, been tempted to make one and then wait until somebody posts. Once someone posts, I will copy the list into post #2, delete my post and thus someone else gets the joy of running the list and they'll appear to be the first poster. I think that works, anyway. It might delete the whole thread, though, so I'd have to simply move all the posts to a new topic. Either way, the second poster will become the list owner. I think that would be funny, anyway.

It would be funny if I were to make that second post. What a disaster it would be. :)

[Interceptor]

I'm sure dondon is more than competent. What about Interceptor? He's very competent as well if my vote counts either of those takes mine :).

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I think that I am ill-suited for the job. You really need someone who can be even-handed (to give fair weight to all sides of an argument), that possesses the requisite knowledge of the game's inner workings (so as not to get rolled by stupid/impossible ideas), and also has the time to read everything that happens in the thread, in detail. This soldier is only about one for three on that list of criteria.

I am a fan of people like RFoF and CM for running tier lists, since they are both knowledgeable and non-partisan, but you still need to have the time and the inclination for it.

I dont think int likes speedrushing, at least in those post he's made thts what ive guessed(please correct me if im wrong)

For tiering purposes, I am not interested in it, because the result is boring. For its own sake, I think that speedruns are interesting because of the clever strategies that come from them.

[grandjackal]

Oh, and GJ

There aren't actually very many units in that last category.

Most units have a free chapter in which they can at least do something. Even if it's a couple of potshots. Even Astrid can shave a turn in 3-9 compared to not using her since she can finish something off so that the others can keep moving forward.

That doesn't exactly help, because it's still boring.

I think the units that would make it to the last category are:

Lyre

Renning

Possibly Kyza, depending on whether you can deploy him in 3-4 and have him do something without costing turns

You're missing Meg, Fiona, perhaps even Aran, but whatever.

Even Oliver arguably needs to be above that.

He's not optimal, so no he wouldn't.

Technically, it is theoretically possible that you could have a set up in which Oliver gets recruited on the last turn, grabs a Physic off Rafiel and heals Ike or Mia so that they can KO the final unit without a COD.

That has to be the most theoretical situation I've ever seen.

Or something. Since it is theoretically possible, he's pretty much looking at bottom of the category of "units that actually do something" and above "units that literally do nothing". And Stefan would be sitting immediately above Oliver since he gets to do so little in 4-3. Volke should probably be around that level, too, since you can finish 4-5 so quickly.

That's the thing, none of these guys would make it up there. They're all easily outclassed (aside from your strange insanely theoretical Oliver idea), and don't contribute anything. Sure, they're perfectly fine fillers, but you got guys like Ike and the Royals to contend with, and is only in the assumption you've been screwed bad enough in the leveling AND BEXP aspects that you have to use these guys.

The reason this list wouldn't be EXACTLY like FE12's list is because a lot of units in that game just can't make the cut, the enemy is too strong to contend with. In that sense, RD did a better job of keeping that in check by forcing members everywhere, but the general idea of the list would still be the same. That being boring.

Then again, I don't think it's been thoroughly looked into on just how much stuff you have in FE12. With stuff like in-base shop stat boosters, shards and such that you could probably get away with more than perceived. Me and SDS are discovering that you may not even have to buy regular weapons ever. The occasional ranged weapon sure, a couple slayers maybe, but you don't ever have to buy anything in bulk (compare that to FE11 where the lategame plan is RIDERSBANES AND POLEAXES FOR EVERYONE for when Shiida's not just having you warpskip it all). In fact, you can get a good chunk of money just form selling the extra crap the game gives you but you don't need. You should never need to forge (Maybe +1 on a lategame Wyrmslayer or +2 on an early Silver Lance for OHKOing thieves if you don't have the rainbow potion). There are ust so many ways to save money in order to spend that money on delicious boosts via stat ups and the in-base arena. I just realized you could join half-broken weapons together. You get the gist.

[Narga_Rocks]

You're missing Meg, Fiona, perhaps even Aran, but whatever.

No I'm not. That's the entire point. Meg has 1-4, 1-5, 1-6 where she can shove stuff or chip stuff at no cost. Only benefit there, no negatives. Even the smallest of plusses instantly removes her from the group that does literally nothing. Ditto Aran. Fiona has part 3, as do Meg and Aran. It doesn't matter if all they do is trade a few weapons, torch a couple of times, give their support bonus to someone being used (like, say, nearly untrained Leo getting Meg's heaven so he won't miss stuff), and maybe carry someone around a bit.

They have the ability to contribute to the playthrough in such a way that they are not costing you anything. As such, they would need to be tiered with that in mind.

He's not optimal, so no he wouldn't.

How is he not optimal for the end of 4-4? He exists. Do you suggest he runs and hides rather than shoves/heals/chips? That doesn't make any sense. He's not so bad that using him for anything but running away is suicide. The only thing you could maybe do is place him in a "not recruited" tier if you think that you can't recruit him without costing a turn. Volke has a similar problem in 4-5 if you think you need Elincia and Bastian in order to achieve the lowest turncount. If they can't take the time to recruit him then he also doesn't get recruited.

That has to be the most theoretical situation I've ever seen.

Are you saying that it is impossible to find a way to make use of him on the last turn? I don't see why it is so unlikely that he'd end up clumped into the same group as Renning and Lyre. Actually, even Lyre could potentially get out of that if you think that you like having a 9 move, 11 con (transformed) unit to shove stuff in part 4. There are a fairly high number of slots and not all that many laguz. Though 11 con is kinda sucky. 31 wt for take+drop methods, though. But I think there are probably enough beorc with good stats that you would never need to deploy every single laguz you've ever picked up for shoving purposes. Lethe and Lyre are pretty much bottom of the barrel for shovers due to low con and bad gauge.

That's the thing, none of these guys would make it up there. They're all easily outclassed (aside from your strange insanely theoretical Oliver idea), and don't contribute anything. Sure, they're perfectly fine fillers, but you got guys like Ike and the Royals to contend with, and is only in the assumption you've been screwed bad enough in the leveling AND BEXP aspects that you have to use these guys.

You aren't understanding something. On that list you would never ever put them to 4-E. Fine. Where did I even say that? Are you reading carefully or not? They exist in 4-3, 4-4, and 4-5. You have the opportunity to do something when they are there. If they do ANYTHING, then they literally CANNOT be in the same tier as a guy like Renning who will never ever be deployed. What about that is so hard to get?

Then again, I don't think it's been thoroughly looked into on just how much stuff you have in FE12. With stuff like in-base shop stat boosters, shards and such that you could probably get away with more than perceived. Me and SDS are discovering that you may not even have to buy regular weapons ever. The occasional ranged weapon sure, a couple slayers maybe, but you don't ever have to buy anything in bulk (compare that to FE11 where the lategame plan is RIDERSBANES AND POLEAXES FOR EVERYONE for when Shiida's not just having you warpskip it all). In fact, you can get a good chunk of money just form selling the extra crap the game gives you but you don't need. You should never need to forge (Maybe +1 on a lategame Wyrmslayer or +2 on an early Silver Lance for OHKOing thieves if you don't have the rainbow potion). There are ust so many ways to save money in order to spend that money on delicious boosts via stat ups and the in-base arena. I just realized you could join half-broken weapons together. You get the gist.

off-topic, so i'm ignoring.

[RNG Princess]

In that tier list Lyre could get away with being deployed at almost no cost on 4-3, I mean there is plenty of room and she could easily be shove bot for Sanaki/Micaiah (thats what Lethe did in my PT anyway). However her contribution wouldn't compare to someone that has free deployments for more than 1 chapter, so I would put her in bottom tier as well as Renning, Volke, Oliver, and Stefan (Oliver, Stefan and Volke to a lesser degree) this is if you're considering 100% optimal deployment, as for Oliver it all depends on Rafiel's placement if he's recruited or not or if his healing is needed or not.

Back to this tier list I really think Pelleas belongs in bottom tier since his combat is almost unneeded. Lucia could stay behind and take care of the two reinforcements as for 4-4 I'm not sure if his contribution is really all that much. Pardon me if my logic is flawed ^_^ but he seems like a just in case unit with no promising features just like the rest of bottom tier.

BTW just so I understand this. Kyza is above both Pelleas and Astrid(T) because he does better damage right? They all seem similar to me; no doubling, more on the chipping side, take on side jobs. IMO Pelleas, Astrid(T) are more promising than Kyza combat wise because they can get a forge and maybe parablossomed (for Astrid) of course leaving her the paragon would be as costly as giving Kyza the speedwing. It seems like there really isn't much future though for Kyza and I'm sure raising your characters is a big part of this tier list, I wish someone could use him and say.

Edited September 28, 2010 by Queen_Elincia