OMG it's a tier list

[-Cynthia-]

How is that even possible in an efficient playthrough? When did Jill promote to tier 3 and did you give her Bexp in 4-P's base?

No BEXP in the 4-P base, reached tier 3 in the 3-13 base, used Master Crown at level 18/16? I think. I needed her as my Ike killer).

Bexp actually doesn't help Jill gain Str/Def. After capping Spd and Mag around level 18/11, Lck and HP are Jill's two highest growths. Res, Skl, and Str are in a 3-way tie for her third highest growth, and Def is dead last. Even if/when Jill caps Res late in tier 2, she has a low chance of proc'ing Str and no chance of proc'ing Def with a Bexp level-up. And Jill would need both Seraph Robes to have any chance of capping HP at tier 2. So, any Bexp we give Jill makes it less likely for her to reach the lofty Atk she needs to 2HKO more than Mages at 1-2 range or 2HKO Dragonmasters and Generals in Part 4.

Are we talking about Jill or Jill(T) here? The conversation has become somewhat confused here and there is a fair difference between the two. 20/20/7 Jill(T) has 34 Str with an Energy Drop, this will be sufficient to 2HKO a lot of the relevant enemies (she has the Hammer for the 4-E Generals anyway).

Or, we could divide the DB's resources between Jill and Nolan and have two helpful (but unspectacular) units in Part 4. I'm not sure what is most optimal.

I'd rather have an uberflier than a meh flier and a meh infantry unit. I think having one particularly good unit also helps out clear time/reliability on 3-13 rather than splitting too much.

Nolan also has 1-8 over Jill in availability (not that Nolan is particularly helpful there). Nolan is also plenty more helpful in 3-6 with Beastfoe and Tarvos. 3-6 for Jill (T) is mostly self-improvement (she helps by killing some laguz, but not as many as Beastfoe Nolan, Volug, or Sothe).

There's no real reason Jill(T) can't take Beastfoe herself and have similar performance with the Brave Axe or a Steel Forge or something. She's just more flexible than many of those above because of Canto (and she generally has better non-Beastfoe offense against Cats/Tigers due to higher doubling rates), but we could go Beastfoe!Jill if we wanted to.

Then again, Jill (T) can clearly be more helpful in 1-6-1, 1-6-2, 3-12, and 3-13 (and also has some minor utility in 1-7 and 1-E, which is more than Nolan can say). If we give both Jill (T) and Nolan a similar amount of resources, their Part 4 performances are similarly valuable (Jill helping out in the Silver Army and Nolan helping out in the Hawk Army, and both being decent, but unspectacular, 4-E candidates).

Canto in particular (flight helps a bit on 4-E(1) makes Jill's 4-E better than Nolan's, and being better in the Silver Army> being OK in the Hawk Army (2 routs vs one)

Edited November 19, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[Anouleth]

If Jill ORKOing and flying in 4-E isn't spectacular, then what exactly is spectacular?

[Colonel M]

If Jill ORKOing and flying in 4-E isn't spectacular, then what exactly is spectacular?

Haar without his eyepatch on. But I digress.

Though, seriously, Jill is pretty good for 4-E for reasons already explained. The minor issue is her Str probably won't reach the requirements for what you might want her to do, but she still can re-move and tear through Auras with Urvan + White Tide, and a Blood Tide here and there.

[aku chi]

No BEXP in the 4-P base, reached tier 3 in the 3-13 base, used Master Crown at level 18/16? I think. I needed her as my Ike killer).

How did your Jill gain 5 tier 3 levels in 3-13?

Are we talking about Jill or Jill(T) here? The conversation has become somewhat confused here and there is a fair difference between the two. 20/20/7 Jill(T) has 34 Str with an Energy Drop, this will be sufficient to 2HKO a lot of the relevant enemies (she has the Hammer for the 4-E Generals anyway).

I agree that there is a large difference between Jill (N) and Jill (T). Jill possibly experiences the most significant differences with transfers. But even Jill (T) needs a lot of resources to be able to 2HKO Part 4 Halberdiers, Warriors, and Paladins at 1-2 range or 2HKO Dragonmasters. With tier 2 Bexp, it is in the realm of possibility, unlike with Jill (N).

I'd rather have an uberflier than a meh flier and a meh infantry unit. I think having one particularly good unit also helps out clear time/reliability on 3-13 rather than splitting too much.

I wasn't calling Jill (N) or Nolan's Part 4 performances "meh", just unspectacular. They can still ORKO most enemies at 1-range, which is no small feat.

There's no real reason Jill(T) can't take Beastfoe herself and have similar performance with the Brave Axe or a Steel Forge or something. She's just more flexible than many of those above because of Canto (and she generally has better non-Beastfoe offense against Cats/Tigers due to higher doubling rates), but we could go Beastfoe!Jill if we wanted to.

Uh... There are at least five reasons why Nolan is a better Beastfoe candidate than Jill in 3-6:

1) Durability - A 20/1 Nolan has ~37 HP and 14 Def. With Tarvos, a Dracoshield, and a +Def support, Nolan is instead looking at 22 Def. At this point, Nolan can tank two of every laguz except two of the rare 41 Atk Tigers. Even the higher level Cats, who have a small chance of being able to double Nolan at the start of 3-6, deal only 7x2 or 9x2 damage. As the level progresses, Nolan is likely to avoid being 2RKO'd by any and all laguz (and be tinked by A-Strike Cats). We can take this drama away completely if we gave Nolan a Seraph Robe instead. ~44 HP and 20 Def avoids all 2HKOs.

Jill isn't nearly as durable. At 18/1, Jill averages 28 HP and 16.4 Def. Even with a Seraph Robe, a Dracoshield, and a +Def B support, Jill has 35 HP and 20.4 Def. All S-Strike Tigers (of which there are a bunch) 2HKO Jill. There's no guarantee that Beastfoe Jill will escape being 2HKO'd in this way in 3-6. With 2 Seraph Robes and no Dracoshield, Jill fares a little better: 42 HP and 18.4 Def. Jill might still be 2HKO'd by 39 Atk Tigers, but she only needs 43 HP or 19 Def to avoid that fate. Jill still has more to worry about in the form of the 41 Atk Tigers.

Nolan also has superior avoid to Jill, thanks to his earth type and the time to build up a C Support.

2) Atk - A 20/1 Nolan averages 18 Str. He has an 18 x 3 = 54 Mt weapon, resulting in 72 Atk. This is enough to OHKO every single laguz. Nolan can also OHKO at 1-2 range with any crossbow, if he doesn't need the extra durability (he can always use it on player phase and have someone trade/swap for Tarvos).

A 18/1 Jill averages 15 Str, 17 with an Energy Drop. She has 16 x 3 = 48 Mt, resulting in 63 or 65 Atk with a Steel Axe forge. This will OHKO all of the Cats, but is borderline against the weaker Tigers. No amount ot level gains in this chapter will put the higher level Tigers (which are the vast majority) in OHKO range. The Brave Axe has 11x3 = 33 Mt, resulting in 48 or 50 Atk. This doesn't OHKO even the weakest Cats. It does 2HKO even the toughest Tigers, so it seems like there is some promise to this approach.

3) Accuracy - Unfortunately, the Brave Axe is an inaccurate weapon, especially in Jill's hands. A 18/2 Jill has about 44 Hit. The Brave Axe has 80 hit, resulting 114-134 total Hit depending on biorhythm. Enemies can have anywhere between 28-72 Avo in 3-6, depending on their type, biorythm, and if they are in Reeds. So Jill is regularly facing displayed hit in the 70-90 range ~= 80-95 true hit. Jill needs to hit twice to kill, resulting in an ~10-36% chance to miss her OHKO.

Nolan, meanwhile, has ~53 Hit at 20/1. With Tarvos and biorhythm, that's 143-163 total Hit. Nolan generally sees perfect Hit and rarely sees true hit below 95. Plus, Nolan only needs one hit to connect, granting him a very low chance of failure. It also isn't implausible for Nolan to have an A Edward support, which will give him practically perfect hit.

4) Nolan has the skill capacity to take a 10 capacity skill like Vantage on top of Beastfoe, increasing his durability.

5) Nolan imposes no opportunity costs by using Tarvos. The same cannot be said for Jill using twice as many Brave Axe uses. The Brave Axe is one of the most valuable weapons in the game.

Canto in particular (flight helps a bit on 4-E(1) makes Jill's 4-E better than Nolan's, and being better in the Silver Army> being OK in the Hawk Army (2 routs vs one)

I can agree that Jill generally has a better Part 4 than Nolan. But Nolan can be better in 4-E-3 and 4-E-5 by virtue of dealing more damage. It depends on how much you value canto in those maps. And Nolan is more helpful in 4-2 than Jill is in 4-P, I reckon.

If Jill ORKOing and flying in 4-E isn't spectacular, then what exactly is spectacular?

Jill can be spectacular in 4-E, I'm just suggesting that Jill (N) is unlikely to reach the Str to 2HKO Generals with Urvan (better accuracy than with the high-demand Hammer) or deal notable damage to Dheginsea. Jill might even fall short of doubling Deginsea and the Auras (with Nasir) unless we give her some Bexp level-ups.

[-Cynthia-]

I don't think anyone was ever arguing Jill(N) > Nolan, so most of the comparisons involving Jill(N) above are pretty irrelevant.

[aku chi]

If you're talking about the 3-6 Beastfoe comparison, it's still relevant to Jill (T). Points 3, 4, and 5 are mostly unchanged (Jill has 4 more Hit). With respect to point 1, Jill (T) still can't match Nolan's (Tarvos boosted) durability with identical resources. Jill (T) needs a Seraph Robe plus whatever Nolan gets to match Nolan's durability. With respect to point 2, Jill (T) still has no chance to be able to OHKO the multitude of S-Strike Tigers with a Steel Axe forge.

But I support Jill (T) adjacent to Nolan and don't have strong feelings about which is above the other. However, it's just plain wrong to suggest that Jill can match Beastfoe Nolan's utility in 3-6.

[grandjackal]

But I support Jill (T) adjacent to Nolan and don't have strong feelings about which is above the other. However, it's just plain wrong to suggest that Jill can match Beastfoe Nolan's utility in 3-6.

Yet ultimately that's not what makes Nolan overall. Jill T on arrival completely overshadows him in combat AND utility, being better on basically every single parameter you can think of on top of having flight-rescue utility, which carries her from 1-6 through 1E. Nolan has 1-1 to his name before he becomes another Not Sothe, a trend that will stick with him until the likes of Jill actually arrives.

3-6 alone does not win Nolan this argument.

[aku chi]

Yet ultimately that's not what makes Nolan overall. Jill T on arrival completely overshadows him in combat AND utility, being better on basically every single parameter you can think of on top of having flight-rescue utility, which carries her from 1-6 through 1E. Nolan has 1-1 to his name before he becomes another Not Sothe, a trend that will stick with him until the likes of Jill actually arrives.

3-6 alone does not win Nolan this argument.

Nolan - Level 15

32.6 HP, 14.7 Str, 15.2 Skl, 13.6 Spd, 10.6 Lck, 11.1 Def, 5.4 Res

Jill (T) - Level 14

24 HP, 13 Str, 14 Skl, 17 Spd, 14 Lck, 15 Def, 3 Res

How does Jill (T) "completely overshadow" Nolan's combat "on arrival"? It looks to me like they have similar durability. Nolan has an Atk lead and Jill (T) has a Spd lead. And let us not forget that Jill is MIA in 1-8. Then Nolan gets the mighty Tarvos in 3-6, which is +4 Def and +2 Atk at 1-range.

Edited November 19, 2011 by aku chi

[Lord Raven]

4 Defense is more worthwhile at times than 9 HP, and 2 str isn't as significant as 3 Spd considering Jill is much more likely to double. On top of that, Nolan being Level 15 by that time sounds really unreasonable.

[aku chi]

4 Defense is more worthwhile at times than 9 HP, and 2 str isn't as significant as 3 Spd considering Jill is much more likely to double. On top of that, Nolan being Level 15 by that time sounds really unreasonable.

Well, Nolan can have an A support with Edward at this point (or in 1-7 at the latest), which reduced Jill's defense lead to 2 (and gives Nolan an avoid lead). Nolan also has more durability against Mages (they often 2HKO Jill sans Seraph Robe). Jill (T) can double all Armors and Mages (which Nolan only occasionally doubles) and some Soldiers, Fighters, and Archers, so she does have the offensive edge in 1-6 and 1-7. The enemies in 1-E are stupidly fast, so Jill (T) is unlikely to double them (except the Armors and Mages).

1-1 is almost a Nolan solo, so he can gain 2 levels here (or very close to it). Level 15 by 1-6 only assumes 1 level per chapter for the remaining chapters, which is very realistic (he'll probably get more in 1-4).

[grandjackal]

Well, Nolan can have an A support with Edward at this point (or in 1-7 at the latest),which reduced Jill's defense lead to 2 (and gives Nolan an avoid lead).

In your dreams he'll have A that early. More likely a B, where it's now even aside from the + Def that Eddie gives, which is a +1 so it's only a lead of 3 she still has.

Nolan also has more durability against Mages (they often 2HKO Jill sans Seraph Robe).

1. Mages are a rare breed.

2. Thank you for bringing up stat boosters. Tell me why I shouldn't give Jill boosters like the Seraph Robe.

Jill (T) can double all Armors and Mages (which Nolan only occasionally doubles)

Now don't be silly, 1-6-1 they have as little as 11 AS. As you can see, he's not doubling a damn thing.

In fact, you seem to have failed to mention some things, namely how he's still 3RKOd in general even considering a +1 from Eddie, or that he's still doubled by myrms who 2RKO him because of it (even with Eddie's +1. They even have a bit of crit on him, and if one lands, Nolan's pushing up flowers). Or that you may have Nolan overleveled for that point in time (6 levels in 5 chapters, 3 of which Nolan could be considered overleveled, 2 of which do not have a lot of enemies).

and some Soldiers, Fighters, and Archers, so she does have the offensive edge in 1-6 and 1-7. The enemies in 1-E are stupidly fast, so Jill (T) is unlikely to double them (except the Armors and Mages).

You make it sound like this is something we should just skim over like it's nothing. You also fail to mention that with a Steel Axe, she can ORKO these folks, or that with Energy Drops she can do the same with a Hand Axe. Furthermore, the most common speed in 1-E is 16, something Jill T can double with just 3 levels. With 3 chapters and BEXP, this is not a hard goal to accomplish. Some push over to 17, but at the same time since I have speed maxed I could just Seal her early. Not only would I get the following parameters-

27 HP, 16 Str, 16 Skl, 21 Spd, 15 Lck, 18 Def, 6 Res

-which if we add Energy Drops to it ORKOs everything not myrms with a Hand Axe (OHKOs Armors with Hammer), I can slap Elite on her on top of it. Dracoshield, she's at worst on the VERY rare occurance 3RKOd, at best 14RKOd. Could slap an Angel Robe on top of it and make it even better for her. At this point, she's outperforming Sothe, much less Nolan.

1-1 is almost a Nolan solo, so he can gain 2 levels here (or very close to it). Level 15 by 1-6 only assumes 1 level per chapter for the remaining chapters, which is very realistic (he'll probably get more in 1-4).

You forget his overleveled nature when he arrives, and the lack of enemy numbers in early chapters, diminishing how what would otherwise be a realistic assumption. He's not quite growing as fast as you think.

Secondly, you must be taking your sweet sweet time if you're having Nolan simply solo 1-1 and gain that much exp by some miracle, especially since that map puts you on a clock. There's a grand total of 11 enemies on that map, all of which are around level 5, save the boss. Enemies on the left hand side are essentially a waste of time, of which there are 3. I'm pretty sure that even if he were to get all the kills in that chapter, 2 levels wouldn't even be possible.

Your assumptions are rather unfound, and it merely sounds like you're giving Nolan not only too much credit, but you're also overrewarding him to the point of it being impossible, while acting at the same time that Nolan is the only person on the team while disregarding any notion of speed, finally ending with the fact you threw up numbers without even measuring them outside of a void. You even just admitted up there that Jill offensively is beating his ass while not exactly doing well enough to show she's any worse off defensively.

[Lord Raven]

1-1 is almost a Nolan solo, so he can gain 2 levels here (or very close to it). Level 15 by 1-6 only assumes 1 level per chapter for the remaining chapters, which is very realistic (he'll probably get more in 1-4).

If Edward can barely get a full level up (at best like 1.30 levels) in the Prologue while being a much lower level, then Nolan is not at all gaining a Level in 1-1. In 1-2 he finishes the level or gets like 40 EXP (at best) into his next level. You don't gain levels _nearly_ as fast as you'd think in HM. Edited November 20, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[incognit0]

Well, Nolan can have an A support with Edward at this point (or in 1-7 at the latest), which reduced Jill's defense lead to 2 (and gives Nolan an avoid lead). Nolan also has more durability against Mages (they often 2HKO Jill sans Seraph Robe). Jill (T) can double all Armors and Mages (which Nolan only occasionally doubles) and some Soldiers, Fighters, and Archers, so she does have the offensive edge in 1-6 and 1-7. The enemies in 1-E are stupidly fast, so Jill (T) is unlikely to double them (except the Armors and Mages).

1-1 is almost a Nolan solo, so he can gain 2 levels here (or very close to it). Level 15 by 1-6 only assumes 1 level per chapter for the remaining chapters, which is very realistic (he'll probably get more in 1-4).

As posters above mentioned, you are overestimating his support and leveling speed. He will not have what you propose at that time.

Nolan's earlygame is the best thing in his favor versus Jill(T). However, she has instant utility in 1-6-1 if you crown her and let her drop Taur around. Furthermore, you can pump her with resources and get a flying ORKO machine; with base 11 strength and two from promotion, transfer and the energy drop she 2RKOs generals and ORKOs everything else on the map (besides the Myrms Sothe kills) – with a Hand axe. Nolan can never catch her from there, as his only chapters superior to Jill at that point are 1-8 and 3-6. He also has early wins from 1-1, 1-2 and 1-4, but in other chapters he is only around for self improvement.

I also believe that aku chi said they are equal in part 4, which is just laughable. Jill's flying is incredibly more valuable than anything Nolan brings. Greil army is already stacked with powerhouses like Ike, Nailah, Titania, and either Mia (N) or Boyd (T) (in a transfer run). Stick him there, and he looks underleveled/won't contribute with others doing the heavy lifting. Send Nolan to Hawk and he helps for one map and faces movement penalties. In Silver, he is too slow to be in on the 4-P blitz, and in 4-3 he needs to be ferried around... by people like Jill.

I still think that right above the Hawks would be a good place for Jill (T). She was invaluable when I did my run, anyways.

Edited November 21, 2011 by incognit0

[Anouleth]

As posters above mentioned, you are overestimating his support and leveling speed. He will not have what you propose at that time.

Nolan's earlygame is the best thing in his favor versus Jill(T). However, she has instant utility in 1-6-1 if you crown her and let her drop Taur around. Furthermore, you can pump her with resources and get a flying ORKO machine; with base 11 strength and two from promotion, transfer and the energy drop she 2RKOs generals and ORKOs everything on the map – with a Hand axe. Nolan can never catch her from there, as his only chapters superior to Jill at that point are 1-8 and 3-6. He also has early wins from 1-1, 1-2 and 1-4, but in other chapters he is only around for self improvement.

I also believe that aku chi said they are equal in part 4, which is just laughable. Jill's flying is incredibly more valuable than anything Nolan brings. Greil army is already stacked with powerhouses like Ike, Nailah, Titania, and either Mia (N) or Boyd (T) (in a transfer run).

Transfer runs don't exist.

Moreover, Titania is locked to the bottom floor and begins to run out of steam. She needs to be level 20/7 to double reliably assuming she remains exactly on her averages, which is a little bit high. Having an extra combatant in 4-4 is always useful since there is a lot of ground to clear. Titania and Mia won't always be in play, either, any more than Haar will always be in play (and Haar can single-handedly kill about 70% of the map in 4-P, so Jill better hope that he's not in play).

Having an additional 7 move combatant on Hawk Army can also save a turn or two on the RHS of the map. The Hawks can only cover so much ground...

Still, that doesn't make him better than Jill. Jill's lower speed is made up for being more viable on Silver Army, which is more lenient about speed than Greil or Hawk.

[aku chi]

As posters above mentioned, you are overestimating his support and leveling speed. He will not have what you propose at that time.

With respect to an Edward-Nolan support, it is accelerated. B level is guaranteed by 1-6 (after 5 chapters together) and an A level is almost guaranteed by 1-7 (6 chapters). With respect to Nolan's expected leveling, I believe my estimates are in the ballpark, but I have no evidence off hand to support that.

Nolan's earlygame is the best thing in his favor versus Jill(T). However, she has instant utility in 1-6-1 if you crown her and let her drop Taur around.

Sealing Jill before 1-6 and executing a Tauroneo drop in 1-6-2 inhibits Jill's growth. Though I suppose it lets Jill take Paragon in 1-7 and 1-E, so there's at least some chance Jill (T) might reach 14/5 before 3-6.

Furthermore, you can pump her with resources and get a flying ORKO machine; with base 11 strength and two from promotion, transfer and the energy drop she 2RKOs generals and ORKOs everything on the map – with a Hand axe.

Kindly demonstrate this with enemy stats.

Nolan can never catch her from there, as his only chapters superior to Jill at that point are 1-8 and 3-6. He also has early wins from 1-1, 1-2 and 1-4, but in other chapters he is only around for self improvement.

If Nolan doesn't have any role in a 1-3 clear, this seems accurate. 1-1 is a huge win, though.

I also believe that aku chi said they are equal in part 4, which is just laughable.

I said no such thing. Jill (T) > Nolan in Part 4. Nolan can still have a respectable contribution in Part 4, though. And even Jill (T) needs a lot of resources to be spectacular in Part 4.

I still think that right above the Hawks would be a good place for Jill (T). She was invaluable when I did my run, anyways.

I'd be content with Jill (T) right above Nolan. Cross-team comparisons require a lot more nuance.

[Lord Raven]

You don't need to Crown Jill to drop Tauro. I've done it before.

[Anouleth]

Kindly demonstrate this with enemy stats.

The burden is not on incognit0, or anyone to post enemy stats every time they make a claim about combat performance.

[incognit0]

Furthermore, you can pump her with resources and get a flying ORKO machine; with base 11 strength and two from promotion, transfer and the energy drop she 2RKOs generals and ORKOs everything else on the map (besides the Myrms Sothe kills) – with a Hand axe.

11 + 2 + 2 +2 + 9 = 26 Atk

15 + 2 = 17 AS

Kindly demonstrate this with enemy stats.

Here.

Edited November 21, 2011 by incognit0

[aku chi]

The burden is not on incognit0, or anyone to post enemy stats every time they make a claim about combat performance.

I was giving incognit0 a chance to clarify him/herself. By checking the enemy stats, one would find that 14/1 Jill (T) with an Energy Drop can indeed 2HKO and double many enemies with a Hand Axe, but with some qualifications:

1) She cannot double Myrmidons, and so 2RKOs them.

2) As mentioned, she cannot 2HKO any Armors - of which there are several.

3) She has between 52-100 displayed hit (generally in the 72-85 range) with the Hand Axe.

3) Jill is quite durable against physical attacks (especially if we give her a Seraph Robe), but enemy Mages take a large chunk out of her health (and there are 3 Thunder Mages in 1-6-1).

Still, promoting Jill (T) before 1-6-1 seems like a pretty good idea. She doesn't even need the Energy Drop to 2HKO all non-Armors with an Iron Axe forge. We can just give her a Seraph Robe and her combat is about as good as Part 1 Volug's.

[Lord Raven]

The Thunder Mages are quite easy to get out of Jill's range. Especially because there's one that has a bunch of terrain and a mountain to cross and the others are either pretty far to the left or extremely manageable. She destroys the Pegasi though and gives Tauro the ability to solo the northleft portion of the map... she's extremely important to the most efficient clear (since the next most efficient clear is like 2-3 turns more due to reinforcements, but she can easily take care of the Pegasi reinforcements).

Edited November 21, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[grandjackal]

I was giving incognit0 a chance to clarify him/herself. By checking the enemy stats, one would find that 14/1 Jill (T) with an Energy Drop can indeed 2HKO and double many enemies with a Hand Axe, but with some qualifications:

1) She cannot double Myrmidons, and so 2RKOs them.

There's 2 of them, and Nolan's an even worse case. He's 2RKOd by them, even considering +1 from Eddie and that you were using numbers of an overleveled Nolan.

2) As mentioned, she cannot 2HKO any Armors - of which there are several.

Well ignoring that "several" of these are reinforcements, you seem to have forgotten the Hammer exists. 39 effective might with them. With her BASE 13 Str, that's 52 might on them. Let's see, 52-16 is 36. So yes, you're right. She's not 2HKOing, she's 1HKOing.

3) She has between 52-100 displayed hit (generally in the 72-85 range) with the Hand Axe.

You're not gonna mention how Nolan's not any better off, IF we're considering he's overleveled by your estimate? Even with your overestimte, Nolan's still losing acc anyways. Besides, you seem to be failing to realie she's ORKOing basically everything with 1-2 range while Nolan is not. I don't care how shaky her accuracy she might have, 2 strikes that could kill is betterthan a single strike that won't.

3) Jill is quite durable against physical attacks (especially if we give her a Seraph Robe), but enemy Mages take a large chunk out of her health (and there are 3 Thunder Mages in 1-6-1).

Considering that Jill has some capability of laughing off physical damage while Nolan is 3RKOd at best, I won't mind all that much. Also note her mobility. She can have an easier time circumventing her way around this problem, something Nolan can't say.

Still, promoting Jill (T) before 1-6-1 seems like a pretty good idea. She doesn't even need the Energy Drop to 2HKO all non-Armors with an Iron Axe forge. We can just give her a Seraph Robe and her combat is about as good as Part 1 Volug's.

So now that we agree that Jill(T) shoves a boot up Nolan's ass, let's move on to the next subject that I had on my list of thoughts.

What do y'all think of the notion of moving Michaiah above Zihark?

[Florete]

So wait, both Jills going up? Where to?

What do y'all think of the notion of moving Michaiah above Zihark?

I dunno, man, I'd sooner believe Micaiah needs to drop. She's not bad at all, but top of Upper Mid feels like a push at times.

[aku chi]

You're not gonna mention how Nolan's not any better off,

Of course I'm not. I was clarifying a specific claim: that 14/1 Energy Drop Jill (T) ORKOs every unit in 1-6-1 with a Hand Axe. There are several qualifications that must be added for that claim.

What do y'all think of the notion of moving Michaiah above Zihark?

Argument?

So wait, both Jills going up? Where to?

I have seen no objections to Jill (T) right above Nolan. I have objected to moving Jill (N) up because there has been no specific comparison made that takes her opportunity costs into account.

[Anouleth]

Micaiah should not go above Zihark. Micaiah isn't particularly useful in Part 1 (probably less so than Zihark who makes contributions in 1-6-1 and 1-8 and can certainly do more than her in 1-6-2, 1-7, and 1-E if the player doesn't use the fastest strategies). She's definitely less useful in Part 4 where Zihark is a decent foot unit and she's merely one of many healers (and not a particularly good one). Endgame is a bit dicier, but I don't feel like either of them make a huge difference either way... but judging by positions like Stefan over Oliver, it seems that everywhere else on the tier list, combat use is considered to be more valuable than Rescue staff use.

Part 3, it really depends on how fast you went in Part 1. Faster playthroughs might not be able to practically train any of Nolan/Edward/Aran, and Jill could be early sealed, reducing her combat effectiveness. Zihark is still pretty decent and shouldn't be written off. Micaiah's staff utility is probably more useful, but we have two other staff users that can do a similar thing. So I'd pick Zihark again. In the end, I don't think that being a staff user should be above being a second or third string combatant, even in DB Part 3.

[grandjackal]

So wait, both Jills going up? Where to?

No no, just Jill T. Above Nolan there. Was gonna think of arguing her above Oscar T, but I wasn't feeling too sure about it.

I dunno, man, I'd sooner believe Micaiah needs to drop. She's not bad at all, but top of Upper Mid feels like a push at times.

If she drops, Zihark goes with her. I don't see him having a good reason to be above the BK or the royal birds. I'll even go so far as to say vanilla Jill is better than him on the merit that she's a lot more helpful to fast turning.

Of course I'm not. I was clarifying a specific claim: that 14/1 Energy Drop Jill (T) ORKOs every unit in 1-6-1 with a Hand Axe. There are several qualifications that must be added for that claim.

Or we could just...give her an Energy Drop.

Micaiah should not go above Zihark. Micaiah isn't particularly useful in Part 1 (probably less so than Zihark who makes contributions in 1-6-1 and 1-8 and can certainly do more than her in 1-6-2, 1-7, and 1-E if the player doesn't use the fastest strategies).

1-8 is the only one that has any real merit, first of all. 1-6-2 is basically done before it begins, and 1-7 he doesn't contribute anything other than existing since Tormod's crew alone is what wins the mission for us. That is to say, 1-6-2 and 1-7 are merely chapters of self-improvement. You could even say that's rather true sort of for 1-E simply because of Nailah and the BK. This would essentially leave 1-6-1 up to debate, where I would argue that Sothe/Volug/Jill-dropped Taur are hardcore destroying this map so badly that if Zihark contributes anything, it's very little. I'd argue that Nolan is contributing more here than Zihark despite Zihark statistically being better simply because he has a Hammer. Michaiah can take a step in that direction as well with Thani, since a couple of them have a ranged weapon.

She's definitely less useful in Part 4 where Zihark is a decent foot unit and she's merely one of many healers (and not a particularly good one).

We don't really have other staffers to name that we want to actually use at this point aside from Elincia, who's on another team. I bring this up because it means that if there's any Rescue-slingshotting, its Michaiah who's doing it for her portions of part 4. On top of this, she's forced Endgame, so if you have anyone using rescue to help get people around, might as well be her. It's all automatic as well, not really needing levels to manage. She has staff rank, good to go.

Endgame is a bit dicier, but I don't feel like either of them make a huge difference either way... but judging by positions like Stefan over Oliver, it seems that everywhere else on the tier list, combat use is considered to be more valuable than Rescue staff use.

Something Zihark's not that good at, if I may point this out for you. Unless you're arguing that by some miracle, Zihark gets around the ballpark of 12 levels from part 3, his combat is not significantly better than Lucia. To give an idea on how bad Zihark's offense is, to match Stefan (a unit who is basically bare minimum filler), Zihar needs to be 20/8, and this is without saying that he's just Stefan with worse durability. That is a lot of effort to get something that's still bad.

You also forget that Michaiah's forced. You'll have to deal with her being a rescue-bot whether you like it or not.

Part 3, it really depends on how fast you went in Part 1. Faster playthroughs might not be able to practically train any of Nolan/Edward/Aran, and Jill could be early sealed, reducing her combat effectiveness. Zihark is still pretty decent and shouldn't be written off. Micaiah's staff utility is probably more useful, but we have two other staff users that can do a similar thing. So I'd pick Zihark again. In the end, I don't think that being a staff user should be above being a second or third string combatant, even in DB Part 3.

Pretty decent at what exactly? Finishing things off, which is the only thing he can do safely? I'd take magic chip damage to help Sothe OHKO what's left with a Beastfoe first, or chip to drain out laguz that are close to detransforming, or just having access to a heal staff. These are things, as you may note, that Michaiah can do.

Thus, my argument in short. From 1-6-1 onto part 4, it's merely self-improvement unless you're part of the Badass Squad (Sothe/Volug/Jill's ability to rescue, feat. Taur, the LEA, the BK and Nailah). Zihark, as one may note, is not that good at self-improving. Zihark on paper looks like a unit that should be destroying all the ass, but he feels more like a unit that's biding time with the rest of the DB because certain other units are doing all the real heavy lifting. Then part 3 comes along, and Zihark doesn't even seem good.

Michaiah on the other hand has been contributing chip damage and Sacrifice before he showed up, along with Thani-bomb for the bosses of 1-2 and 1-3. Then he arrives, and only thing really notable that he has is 1-8 since enemy speed there is ridiculous for no reason. Then for simple reasons mentioned above, her simplicity still has uses wheras Zihark is merely another janitor in the crew. Then when we improve him as best we can despite his still unstellar performance, what do we really get? A sorta-better than something awful like Lucia at worst, an inferior version of Stefan at best. Michaiah on the other hand has basically been free utility. Free Thani bombs, free staffing due to forced promotion, free Rescue-botting because it's A rank and that's the staff ran Michaiah starts with at tier 2. Michaiah has a lot of flaws, but what uses she has are purely painless.