OMG it's a tier list

[Progenitus]

I just want to direct everyone's attention to this delicious irony inty-chan provided us.

Here's a quote from another topic.

Honestly, this quote here just highlights the philisophical differences between us.

Your primary motivation for participating in Fire Emblem debates is to "curbstomp" people. That's why you change the subject repeatedly, adamantly refuse to concede points whenever possible, reach back into the aether and drag out arguments from 1-2 years ago, mock people with "durrhurrr but Nephiknees can duble" style comments, fling up straw men, use magical powers of pre-cognition to counter things that nobody actually said, etc. You argue to win, and you make it personal, evidenced by the juvenile comment above. You care about recognition and validation, as evidenced by this thead and others like it.

I grew out of that phase a long time ago, hopscotch. I follow tier lists because they interest me, and I participate in them because it's entertaining, I argue because I like it, and I get to occasionally post things that are amusing, which I enjoy doing. I have no stake in winners or losers, just arguments and data.

This is the difference between you and I.

Now here's what he just said.

The logic used above in this post is your own logic of negative utility. Just as a reminder, since I don't subscribe to it.

He argued from a point of view he doesn't even personally believe in.

Basically, he's not even arguing about Meg vs Astrid anymore. It's heavily implied that he also believes Meg is superior (if he truly believed that Astrid was better, he would most likely make a statement following the quote like "Although I do actually believe Astrid is better by my own logic I use" or something to that effect. inty-chan is probably going to say this now that I brought it up to not lose face). He's just trying to disprove me for the sake of disproving me, aka he wants to WIN, and for me to LOSE.

Protip inty-chan: Acting high and mighty and constantly contradicting yourself and wasting everyone's time with silly arguments like these makes you just as big an asshole as me, only I don't try to hide the fact that I'm a jackass.

Edited June 25, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Mekkah]

Actually, I think Int just likes to get you riled up. There's no winner in Astrid vs Meg, Aran vs Nephenee, Mia vs Zihark, or Oscar vs Nephenee. Sometimes there's two losers though.

I know I'd be annoyed by your constant back-and-forths if they weren't so hilarious, for various reasons (not all of them offensive).

It's also cute how you both have each other sigged.

Edited June 25, 2009 by Mekkah

[Progenitus]

That would explain why int always wants to get the last word whenever he "argues" with me.

[Interceptor]

He argued from a point of view he doesn't even personally believe in.

Nothing wrong with playing Devil's Advocate. I think it's a perfectly valid way to argue. kirsche does it all the time, I don't fault him for it in a tier thread. Sometimes it leads to things that you didn't think of before.

It's heavily implied that he also believes Meg is superior (if he truly believed that Astrid was better, he would most likely make a statement following the quote like "Although I do actually believe Astrid is better by my own logic I use" or something to that effect.

I don't have any particular ruleset that I use personally, even though there are some things that I favor. I'm usually willing to argue within constraints that have been set up, although I will complain if I think that they are silly. I'm pretty sure that Astrid > Meg in your logical construct. I could probably think of one or two where Meg was better, if you're interested.

He's just trying to disprove me for the sake of disproving me, aka he wants to WIN, and for me to LOSE.

No, I just don't like seeing one point of view get all of the airtime. Rage Fox was going to make an adjustment unless someone objected, so I decided to object and see where it went.

[...]makes you just as big an asshole as me, only I don't try to hide the fact that I'm a jackass.

Yeah, I'm a big jerk, but it doesn't really contradict my point about why I argue. I really do just like arguing for the sake of arguing. Agreement is boring. Winning's better than losing, but there usually is not a winner or loser anyway, it's unimportant.

So what does this have to do with Astrid vs. Meg, btw?

[Florete]

I just want to direct everyone's attention to this delicious irony inty-chan provided us.

Here's a quote from another topic.

Now here's what he just said.

He argued from a point of view he doesn't even personally believe in.

Basically, he's not even arguing about Meg vs Astrid anymore. It's heavily implied that he also believes Meg is superior (if he truly believed that Astrid was better, he would most likely make a statement following the quote like "Although I do actually believe Astrid is better by my own logic I use" or something to that effect. inty-chan is probably going to say this now that I brought it up to not lose face). He's just trying to disprove me for the sake of disproving me, aka he wants to WIN, and for me to LOSE.

Protip inty-chan: Acting high and mighty and constantly contradicting yourself and wasting everyone's time with silly arguments like these makes you just as big an asshole as me, only I don't try to hide the fact that I'm a jackass.

So what does this have to do with Astrid vs. Meg, btw?

I was wondering the exact same thing, Inty-chan.

She could just follow our heron and shove and she'd STILL be more useful than Astrid

My awesome counter:

Astrid could Rescue a unit in danger or help get someone closer to enemies (like Gatrie) and she'd be more useful than every Shove Meg ever performed.

[Colonel M]

Srsly, Int and smash should have a comedy club. Dead serious. There's never a dull moment with those two.

I dunno about the whole failboat A versus failboat B situation, but it seems to me that Meg has access to Brave Sword during Part 1. It's not saying a whole lot but... meh.

Those kind of arguments I stay the hell away from though.

Edited June 25, 2009 by Colonel M

[charmander6000]

It's a lot harder to train Meg (takes more resources), and she can't contribute anything substantial without doing something like boning your Enemy Phase.

This I disagree with, Meg only needs one chapter of extreme babying before she can handle herself while Astrid needs multiple.

[Interceptor]

This I disagree with, Meg only needs one chapter of extreme babying before she can handle herself while Astrid needs multiple.

Well, it's not like Meg turns into Volug once you train her in 1-4. She's still underlevelled, not doubling with bad mt, and getting 2HKO'ed. She's not completely unsalvageable, like Fiona, but she's still a really bad unit, even once you train her. I find it a little bit hilarious that she's doing something like beating Oscar at 20/20/1, but the fact of the matter is, that's not going to happen in HM. Not even Aran Nolan can reasonably get to tier 3 by Part 4, and Meg can't claim to be particularly useful in Part 3 when she's getting 2HKO'ed like Zihark Leonardo, never mind that she's starting from level 3.

[charmander6000]

True, but Astrid is more or less in the same boat as Fiona so while Meg isn't that great by part 4 Astrid is doing much worse.

[Progenitus]

Meg doesn't even need *extreme* babying.

Compare...

10/0 Meg

25.2 HP, 12.45 str, 9.8 skl, 12.55 spd, 13.25 lck, 12.45 def, 8.5 res

16/0 Nolan

33.2 HP, 15.15 str, 15.9 skl, 14.2 spd, 11.2 lck, 11.45 def, 5.8 res

Considering Nolan is high tier and Meg is bottom tier, Meg is performing very well. With an angelic robe and energy drop, it'd be pretty hard to tell the difference between the two, since the skl doesn't matter because meg is lolheaven for massive hit.

Then down the line...

20/1 Meg

33.2 HP, 17.95 str, 14.8 skl, 20.05 spd, 20.75 lck, 17.95 def, 12 res

20/5 Nolan

40 HP, 19.75 str, 22.5 skl, 20 spd, 16 lck, 15.25 def, 11 res

Even considering nolan has Tarvos/earth affinity, Meg fares well, again considering there's a 5 tier gap between them. Again, after an angelic robe and energy drop on Meg, they're fairly similar.

Astrid NEVER ever comes close to closing that kind of gap between even the middle-road units in the CRKs/GMs, especially with just two stat boosters. Meg is already that close to a high tier DB.

Comparing Astrid to a high/upper mid tier GM...

20/10 Astrid

37.4 HP, 16.2 str, 19.6 skl, 18.2 spd, 22.6 lck, 12.4 def, 18 res

base level Oscar

38 HP, 20 str, 22 skl, 21 spd, 18 lck, 17 def, 13 res

I gave Astrid EIGHT levels and Oscar ZERO, and Astrid is STILL getting raped. This isn't just an issue of "oh well if I throw a few stat boosters on Astrid it'll be fine". She's losing by 4 str, 3 spd, 4-5 def to a BASE LEVEL GM THAT'S NOT EVEN ONE OF THE BEST.

In fact, Meg vs Astrid is such a joke, the stat gap between a 20/10 Meg and a 20/10 Astrid is like the same as the gap between 20/10 meg and 20/20/1 GATRIE.

If you don't believe me

20/20/1 Gatrie

49 HP, 29 str, 24.5 skl, 25 spd, 18 lck, 32 def, 18.5 res

For reference I'll bring back Meg's 20/10 stats (and repost Astrid's).

Meg 20/10

38.6 HP, 21.1 str, 6.9 mag, 18.4 skl, 22 spd, 27.5 lck, 21.1 def, 16.5 res

Astrid 20/10

37.4 HP, 16.2 str, 9.6 mag, 19.6 skl, 18.2 spd, 22.6 lck, 12.4 def, 18 res

Gatrie over Meg has 10-11 HP, 8 str, 3 spd, 11 def

Meg over Astrid has 1 HP, 5 str, 4 spd, 9 def.

This is such a joke. Meg rapes Astrid almost as much as a unit 5 tiers above Meg rapes her.

There's a difference between playing "devil's advocate" and "you're wasting all of our fucking time".

[charmander6000]

Smash has a point, I could see Meg rising to top of bottom or bottom of low. Also what's with the difference between Pelleas and Oliver? I think we could place Oliver over Pelleas though Pelleas should drop below Kyza/Lethe and maybe Kurth/Ena (not too sure about them).

[Dat Nick]

I'm totally convinced that Meg>Astrid may hold some water, but...I'd like to see exact levels that Meg's likely to be at by the end of part 1, what Astrid's likely to be at at the end of Part 2, and both of them at Part 3, and how much babying Meg needs to stop sucking at Part 1, as I don't think that was ever covered, just Smash saying "hay look Meg pwns Astrid when Astrid has a heug level lead"

[Progenitus]

With how much favoritism? "Minor"? "Moderate"? "Major"? We're talking about bottom tiers, so with little to no favoritism involved they'll both be bad.

But assuming we're using them like a normal unit (e.g. Meg gets the same kills someone like Nolan gets, Astrid gets the same kills as the other GM units get, etc.)

End of part 1: Meg will be like level 15-16, since someone like Nolan gets to ~20. Now Nolan starts 6 levels higher and joins 3 chapters earlier, but he gains exp pretty slow, a lot slower than Meg at any rate. 11/0 Nolan killing a level 6 laguz in 1-4 gets ~22 exp. 3/0 meg killing that same enemy gets ~34. In 1-5, a 12/0 Nolan killing a level 11 enemy gets ~19 exp. A 5/0 Meg gets ~29. In a chapter like 1-7, 16/0 Nolan killing a level 15 enemy still gets ~19 exp. A 11/0 Meg gets ~26. A level gap that starts at ~8 and then shrinks to 4-5 sounds pretty reasonable when you consider that Meg gets ~50% more exp than Nolan for awhile, and even when the level lead starts to shrink she still gets ~33% more exp.

She also doesn't take THAT long to stop sucking. her biggest issue is that she gets doubled. but consider a soldier in 1-5, who are the fastest enemies aside from myrms. They have 13 spd. Meg would need +2 spd to not get doubled, which requires on average 3 levels. I'd put her getting 2 levels in 1-4, so it's not going to take that much more favoritism to get 1 more level. And the enemies don't gain spd faster than Meg does. In 1-6-1 there are only ~2 non-myrms who have 14 spd. The rest have 13 or less. And so on.

End of part 2: There really shouldn't be much fighting in 2-3 because of BEXP, and most of the enemies are tier 1 and her killing something only gives like 30 exp even with paragon, and then she joins in 2-E halfway through with not too many enemies to fight. She might get two levels by the end of part 2.

End of part 3: I generally consider a DB unit like Nolan to be ~20/15 by the end of part 3. Which means Meg can either be 15/15 or 16/15, or we just waited for her to promote normally so she'd be like 20/11 or so.

As for Astrid, we can now shift paragon in 3-9 so she's not automatically entitled to it, though just for argument's sake let's say she gets it. She'll be about 20/4 versus 20/8 enemies, so with paragon she'll get ~50 exp a kill or so. There aren't many enemies in the chapter though, and since it's not a rout we probably won't even kill them all, so Astrid might get about 3 levels. 3-11 has enemies around level 14-17, so 20/7 Astrid gets like 33 exp a kill or so without paragon. Maybe ~2 levels. 3-E has enemies about the same level, but since the chapter automatically ends after 80 kills no matter who does the killing, this chapter doesn't last very long. Astrid might get 1-2 levels. Let's just say 2. So she'll be like 20/11 or so as well.

Seems pretty close to my original estimation of 20/10 for both of them if you ask me. It's not like giving Astrid more levels is going to help her case anyway, since enemies in 4-1 reach up to 25 spd (and the enemies who aren't generals/magic users reach 24 pretty easily), which means they're doubling her until she's almost promoted. She also has a low str growth so tacking on more levels will only give her like 2 more att, and her def is so bad she's getting 2HKO'd anyway.

Also what's with the difference between Pelleas and Oliver? I think we could place Oliver over Pelleas though Pelleas should drop below Kyza/Lethe and maybe Kurth/Ena (not too sure about them).

Oliver should be lower-mid, really.

Pelleas vs Kyza/Lethe is iffy. I'd probably defend the laguz in such a debate, but those two are pretty awful.

Kurth/ena are definitely better. They don't take up a deployment spot in 4-E, and they can just act as roadblocks in 4-E-3 and still be more useful than Pelleas sucking up a master crown just to be, like, a 5th string healer. Not to mention the whole tide skills they have.

[dondon151]

But assuming we're using them like a normal unit (e.g. Meg gets the same kills someone like Nolan gets, Astrid gets the same kills as the other GM units get, etc.)

I don't think this is fair, to be honest. Lesser units get lesser kills.

[Narga_Rocks]

I wouldn't so much say lesser units get lesser kills. If you are raising meg she needs as many or more or there is no point. If you aren't raising her then she shouldn't be getting like 1/3 of the kills Nolan (for example) gets, or even 1/4 or something like that. She should get no kills unless it is necessary for her to kill something in order to complete the chapter on time. Also, she won't get much in the way of hit experience either because letting her attack more than one thing a map (if it doesn't have a bow) means healing her at least once which is a waste of Laura's turn if there is someone else for her to heal. You either go all in with a unit or you give them virtually nothing. Anything else (in part 1, anyway) and you'll just hurt the level of the other db members you are trying to raise.

Now, once you are giving her equal kills, if you have to baby her to get her more kills then she would normally be capable of getting, isn't that part of why she is not worth raising in the first place?

[Yojinbo]

Tauroneo and Tanith should both be > Marcia

[Florete]

Unfortunately, Marcia vs. Tanith was eaten, but I think everyone agreed it went to Marcia.

It's gonna take more than that to move Tauroneo past her.

[Yojinbo]

Let's see ... Tauroneo with Imbue = a unit with 21 base Def, 15 Base res, who heals himself for at least 12dmg every round? Who also has the best defensive affinity? Who is one of the very few DB members who is usable in pt4 and Endgame, since he can hit tier3 before pt4 comes (crown him!)? Who maxes spd and res and can deal with white dragons pretty well (he still heals himself every round)? Who will always enjoy 4 leadership stars of Tibarn in 4-2 and 4-5? Who is by far the best unit in 1-6-1 and 1-6-2 as well as 3-12 and 3-13?

These are just the first things, that come to my mind, when I think of Tauroneo. And that's already >>> everything Marcia does in HM. I'd also love to see that argument that clains that Marcia > Tanith in HM.

[Florete]

You explained why Tauroneo is a good unit. You did not say anything about how it makes him better than Marcia other than just claiming it.

A few quickies on Marcia > Tanith:

-4 more chapters of availability where she's helping.

-Much less doubling issues (almost none at all at times).

-Most of the same advantages otherwise, including flight.

[Jaybee]

What Tanith has over Marcia...

A higher level

Better strength

A better support

Being forced in pothole heaven.

[Florete]

A higher level

Pointless, in fact it could almost be seen as a negative due to lower experience gain and not being close enough to promotion for it to really matter.

Better strength

Countered by better Speed and actually doubling, as well Fire affinity boosting Strength.

A better support

Who else are they supporting other than each other?

Being forced in pothole heaven.

The only advantage here is being forced for a chapter, which is minor at best. Both can cover potholes.

[charmander6000]

I don't think Marcia is initially doubling everyone when she joins the GM. At 20/12 she's pretty borderline, though by the end of the chapter she should be doubling. She may also be weighed down by a steel greatlance if she's a bit strength screwed.

Not enough to put Tanith over her, but it's something to know.

[Yojinbo]

You explained why Tauroneo is a good unit. You did not say anything about how it makes him better than Marcia other than just claiming it.

Then what the hell does it take to be better than Marcia? It's not like she's any good in the chapters she's in.

Does she rape two of the hardest chapters like Taurnoneo rapes 1-6-1 and 1-6-2? No, she doesn't.

Does she do anything good in the chapters she's in? No, she doesn't.

Does she have good durability? No, she doesn't.

Is she a good support partner? No, she isn't.

Marcia will constantly be in danger of getting 3HKOed by like anything except in 3-2. She starts at -/5 and has only 4 chapters to catch up to Tauroneo's -/14. She will do good in none of them, only borderlineish in 2-3. There is no way that she is even remotely good in part4. She has 5 chapters to get from -/5 to 3rd tier, to be on Tauroneo's level. And that doesn't even include Tauroneo being a lot better in part 4 and his godly performance in 1-6-1 amd 1-6-2, especially the latter being almost unbeatable without him.

If you don't see why Tauroneo >>> Marcia, then you don't want to.

A few quickies on Marcia > Tanith:

-4 more chapters of availability where she's helping.

How exactly does she help? Attacking from 2 range? Attacking down the ledge? That's pretty much all she's good at. She has awful offense with that Javelin of hers and without it she gets raped by Dracoknights in 2-P and axe users in 2-E.

All she can ever do is hit + run.

I suppose you can count saving the houses in 3-9 as a slight bonus but it's still not worth much in HM, where the BExp won't make the difference.

-Much less doubling issues (almost none at all at times).

Tanith has a base spd of 23. Marcia needs to be -/10 for that, which means that she magically has to get 5 level ups in only 4 chapters. How does she do that when she can't kill anything and has poor durability? By the time Tanith joins Marcia will be at -/8 if you're realistic.

Her stats will be prolly like that

Marcia -/8

36.1 HP, 16.9 Str, 18.2 Skl, 21.95 Spd, 13.5 Lck, 17.05 Def, 16.05 Res

Tanith -/16

35 HP, 20 Str, 21 Skl, 23 Spd, 22Lck, 19 Def, 20 Res

Marcia only wins HP by one point, which is meaningless, since Tanith has +2 in Def and +4 in Res. Taniths offense flat out rapes Marcia's at this point as she has +2 AS and +4 Str.

The funniest thing is that Marcia never reallly outgrows Tanith as Tanith has actually pretty good growth rates...55% str, 75%skl, 40% def ... even 40% spd isn't that bad. Also have fun using Marcia in part 4, where she'll be 20/10 at best, while Tanith could already be promoted by that point with strong claims to a Master Crown ... have you seen her skl? With a solid base and insane growth rate (75%) she will be one of the characters, who activates her mastery skill the most. Her skill (in combo with her pretty good base Lck) also helps her reliably hitting things, where other units might miss.

-Most of the same advantages otherwise, including flight.

Let's also mention that Tanith has Earth affinity. And that she's closer to promotion aka access to mastery skills. And that from the moment she joins she's the better unit. And that Marcia doesn't actually do anything good before Tanith joins in the first place.

I don't think Marcia is initially doubling everyone when she joins the GM. At 20/12 she's pretty borderline, though by the end of the chapter she should be doubling. She may also be weighed down by a steel greatlance if she's a bit strength screwed.

Not enough to put Tanith over her, but it's something to know.

Uhm ... are you seriously saying that Marcia is getting 7 level ups in 4 chapters? In freaking HM?

[Zkirsche]

Who else are they supporting other than each other?

Ulki/Janaff prefer the avo against crossbows more than each others def boosts. Then, you have to factor in that there's an odd amount of GM's:

Ike

Titania

Oscar

Boyd

Gatrie

Shinon

Mia

Nephenee

Haar

Mordecai

Ranulf

Ulki

Janaff

Reyson

Mist

At least one of these gets the short straw and doesn't support anyone. That means that the unit might choose between Tanith or Marcia. Whoever it is, Earth > Fire.

Also, I'd like to point out how bad she is in 2-E and 3-9:

Level 7/0 Marcia with a steel greatlance: 35 HP, 31 Atk, 21 AS, 70 Avo, 17 Def, 16 Res

I count 10 Crossbow users in total in this chapter, 18 including normal bow users. That's quite a few enemies she has to be wary of. Then, you have to consider that she doesn't double many enemies (Non mages and non-generals have >17 AS. It's not like she ORKO's the latter anyway). So not only is her offense limited by her durabiltiy, her damage output in general is kinda meh too.

Level 8/0 Marcia with a steel greatlance: 36 HP, 31 Atk, 22 AS, 72.5 Avo, 17 Def, 16 Res

Now, some may argue that she can reach the soldier on the upper levels quicker than any other unit. This is true, yes, but there's an archer dangerously close to the soldier's position which limits her usability up there until it is killed - quite a way into the chapter. Heck, Devdan can reach up there before the soldier burns too many houses and he doesn't suffer from archer problems.

Still few <19 AS enemies. So Marcia still struggles to double and ORKO enemies. Couple this with her less than average durability and you notice that Marcia isn't teh best unit in the world.

When you add all this to the fact that Marcia isn't really needed to complete these chapters and she doesn't really gain positive utility over Tanith in them. When comparing them:

Level 16/0 Tanith with a forged steel lance: 35 HP, 35 Atk, 23 AS, 83 Avo, 19 Def, 20 Res

Level 9/0 Marcia with a forged steel lance: 37 HP, 32 Atk, 22.6 AS, 75 Avo, 17 Def, 16 Res

Offensively, Tanith has 3 more Atk against nothing. Tanith wins.

Defensively, Tanith has 2 Def + 4 Res + 8 Avo vs Marcia's 2 HP. After one melee attack each and Marcia ties Tanith forHP, more and she loses to Tanith. One magic attack and she falls well below Tanith's HP. This makes her more susceptible towards wind magic. This can only improve as Tanith has an avo affinity and better def growth.

In Fact, Tanith is a very good candidate for a master crown as it gives her the ability to double right off the bat and more than makes up for the loss she gets, unlike Marcia, who'll lose a lot from the crown at this stage.

Pointless, in fact it could almost be seen as a negative due to lower experience gain and not being close enough to promotion for it to really matter.

Whilst this is true, Marcia can be RNG screwed in many areas, Tanith can't. Tanith wins.

[charmander6000]

Uhm ... are you seriously saying that Marcia is getting 7 level ups in 4 chapters? In freaking HM?

Considering how exp rich 2-E is and that she'll likely get paragon in 3-9 yes I do.