OMG it's a tier list

[Progenitus]

I was talking about one rounding. The reason it matters for a sniper but not for anybody but a mage with a long range tome is that snipers don't face counters. I don't much care that Ilyana can kill any red dragon (I think even standing on wardwood depending on Ilyana's magic) with rexbolt is because I have to heal her. There is a reason I think snipers might be the best for dragonfoe.

I would much rather put dragonfoe on a durable guy who can face multiple dragons in one turn, not Leo who kills one dragon on player phase and then can only take one attack on enemy phase because his def and avo are terrble, and his res doesn't even help much because white dragons 2HKO him anyway unless he's on wardwood anyway.

And I know exp hogging doesn't technically exist, but Ilyana doesn't go to part 3 with the DB. My whole point was that I have one less tier 2 unit now. If I raise Meg instead of Leo, I have x tier 2 units in part 3. If I use Leo instead of Meg, I again have x tier 2 units in part 3. If I use Ilyana instead of Leo, I have x-1 tier 2 units in part 3. It seems like a big negative. (Aside from the fact that I usually only need x-1 or maybe even x-2 units in part 3 to clear it, but that's why I raise Ilyana anyway.)

Well, comparing Meg and Leo this is probably not quite accurate because Meg won't be tier 2 in part 3 if she is given the same number of kills and non kills as Leo took from 1-4 to 1-E to get to tier 3, but I'm sure the point is clear.

This is a valid point, but remember that there is more than one way to use a unit. We don't necessarily have to train Ilyana.

I'd argue that Ilyana making potshots in early-mid part 3 is more useful than what Leo does for the entire game, and Leo can't simply make potshots in part 1 and leave it at that because Ilyana does it better than him anyway.

[Narga_Rocks]

Well, I wasn't really clear about the Leo and dragonfoe thing. There is no way I would ever train Leo because I can't imagine getting him to be 20/1 even partway through 3-6, and then getting him endgame worthy with his low hp, str, spd, and def just seems like an exercise in futility. And if I'm going to put that much work into a sniper, it is going to be rolf because 61 might at level --/20/11 and 32.5 spd is just fun. On HM, though, shinon seems like the safer and easier choice and I can still slowplay part 3 a bit to cap his tier 2 strength. It helps him not be quite as weak, and with the double bow I'm not sure it matters anyway.

Well, dragonfoe on a durable unit might be fun and all, but our durable unit is likely durable because it is at a high level. If you're using a durable unit and it is level 10 or so tier 3, it might be worth it. But if it is level 15 and most or all of the important stats are capped anyway, I don't see why we wouldn't make the weaker people able to get levels easier. The durable unit can still wall or something in the two areas where we might actually face 3 or 4 dragons in one turn after the first turn where we need an all out blitz to avoid walling, but there aren't too many situations in that level where we need to face 3 or 4 dragons at once.

Basically I'm saying I'd be tempted to give dragonfoe to my 4th lowest unit of the ones for whom levels actually help. (The lowest 3 get paragon). I think there are good arguments for multiple different ways of using dragonfoe, is all I'm saying. Although Leo is probably pretty low on the list of good uses of dragonfoe. But I don't see a point of giving it to Ilyana either. If we do that then we probably blessed a Meteor for the extra damage and to avoid lots of Heather abusing, and then Sanaki and any other mage isn't doing as well against dragons from afar, meaning our team is less strong and Ilyana having dragonfoe is an overall negative. I don't really think that giving Leo dragonfoe is stacking the deck against Ilyana.

And I did say in a previous post that giving Leo dragonfoe is hurting his other class members (ie: Rolf and Shinon). Giving Ilyana a blessed bolting is helping her class members (ie: Sanaki and other mages you brought). Frankly, if you bring Shinon to endgame then giving Leo dragonfoe is almost a negative.

Edited June 27, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Yojinbo]

She does actually.

How?

It's decent.

Uhm, not really <_<

She gets 3HKOd in 2-P, 2-E and 3-9 (and almost all chapters afterwards).

She's not a bad support partner.

Nobody is a bad support partner per se.

Tanith is a lot better though.

Not the greatest counters I could have pulled, but you weren't asking for much.

Yeah, it's easy to say tat when you shove everything into Marcia's ***.

Because of 3-9 Paragon I'd say 20/11-12 is realistic.

You're delusional.

6 - 7 level ups in 4 chapters in HM with only one chapter of potential Paragon use? No way, man. No way.

Holy shit, sandbag much?

Not really. Where do you get exp from when you can't kill enemies? When you have only 4 chapters to catch up?

Unless you give her massive amounts of cheap kills there's no way that she hits -/10 until 3-11.

Let's also mention that the best partners for them happen to be each other...

Why would Tanith want to support Marcia of all the people? That's again blatant favouritism in Marcias favour since Tanith doesn't want to support her at all. You have a **** load of units from the GM, who all want to support somebody with Earth affinity and of all those people you'd choose Marcia? You can't be serious.

Tanith doesn't have offensive issues and that support only takes care of Marcias average durability.

The best support partners for Tanith are either Ulki or Janaff (probably Janaff).

Actually, no. Ulki especially, but even Janaff is fine on the defensive end. If anything, they'd both prefer Marcia for the offense boost, since by the time the support builds there are little to no Crossbow enemies.

No crossbows? There's a whole bunch of them in the desert, in 4-2 and 4-4. All parties in pt4 will face crossbows in one of their chapters.

Also, they're fine "on the defensive end" when they're transformed. If you give them their Earth support they're not even a liability untransformed, which is the biggest issue for any Laguz. A Laguz with little transformation issues, who can even be used to bait single enemy units is much more useful than that attack boost (especially since both Hawks have strong claims to Adept anyways).

And now you have to assume everyone on that list is being used...

Which includes Haa and Nealuchi in 2-P as combat units; Geoffrey, Kieran, Danved, Makalov and Astrid in 2-3; Elincia, Nealuchi, Lethe, Mordecai, Brom, Nephenee, Heather, Haar and Calill in 2-E and Kieran, Geoffrey, Astrid, Danved and Makalov in 3-9.

That's a **** load of characters she has to share that little Exp with. Tanith doesn' have to do that - she starts with a solid base level and stats.

God, I hate it when people say this. Let me say it loud and clear, for about the fifth time, so that everyone can hear it:

Marcia has no durability issues in 2-P!!!

Writing it in big, bold letters doesn't make it true.

She's 3-4HKOd by everything but the boss and with decent avoid, and due to being the only character taking damage, she has a monopoly on Elincia's staff. I could pull getting hit as a positive for her since it's the only way Elincia cang et any kind of decent experience here.

She's 3HKOed ... untransformed Nealuchi is 4HKOed, Leanne doesn't get attacked, Elincia beats Marcia in every single stat and Haar is ... Haar. She's the biggest liability in the chapter.

Since she gets 3HKOed she can't ever attack with her Steel Lance (the only way to 2RKO the enemies here) on Player Phase otherwise she takes two hits from one Dracoknight (counter + enemy phase attack) and a third one will rape her. Some of them have hand axes ... she needs to use the Javelin, which doesn't 2RKO any of the enemies in 2-P.

And she still gets 3RKOed even with a Javelin.

"and due to being the only character taking damage, she has a monopoly on Elincia's staff"

So Haar is magically immune against any kind of attack, since apparently only Marcia can take damage? Also if you ever attack with anything else than the Javelin she will die before Elincia can even heal her. Monopoly won't help her in this case.

If allied units can kill them why the hell can't Marcia?

Because your allies are high in number from the very beginning? Because they will kill ~30% or more of the enemies on the map? Because 5 other units are there and want to get Exp too?

I never said she can't kil the enemies in 2-3 btw. I just said she won't get to kill as much as you'd like and that the enemies give little Bexp anyways.

Javelins exist, and with Paragon she can actually get quite a few levels depending on how many kills she gets.

If you let her fight with Javelins she won't get many kills.

Also your argument includes ridiculous amounts of favouritism: Giving her free kills and Paragon?

Favoritism she's practically entitled to, aka it's not being counted against her.

Sounds like bias/fanboyism to me. Nobody is entitled to anything.

She doesn't have stronger claims to the free kills you'd in 2-P and 2-E than Haar, Nephenee, Mordy, Lethe or Brom do. In fact they have stronge claims than her because they'll be more useful that way in pt3.

And why should she be entitled to Paragon, when Calill with Paragon and a Master Crown can promote before/at 3-11 to use staves, get promo boni and hit those damned generals at their weak spot from a safe distance?

Why shouldn't I give them to Kieran, who is much closer to promotion? You might want to use the crown to promote Geoffrey for 3-9 or Calill later.

Why would you give all that to Marcia? Because the army benefits from it so much? Or rather because you just like her more?

The problem is that it takes Janaff's durability from great to overkill. He'd prefer the offense since he doesn't quite one round everything.

I adressed that above...

...The hell?

Yes, Haar can take damage like any other unit and he might get hit/countered on his player phase move.

How many CRK's do you plan on using in one run? Two Paragons to split among 7 people:

-Geoffrey's leaving, so giving it to him means losing it for 3 maps.

-Astrid sucks

So only 5 more. Due to Marcia actually being used and the fact that we're unlikely to use two more of Calill, Kieran, Makalov, and Danved, she's practically entitled to Paragon.

The problem is:

"Due to Marcia actually being used and the fact that wer'e unlikely to use two more of Calill, Kieran, Makalov, and Danved, she's practically entitled to Paragon."

You assume that Marcia "is actually used" by default. Why? There's nothing about her that makes her more worthy than Kieran, Geoffrey, Calill and even Mak/Dan.

You just say "she's being used" and use that as a basis for your argument...as well as favouritism.

Edited June 27, 2009 by Yojinbo

[Florete]

Alright, what the hell? All of this was already covered, and for some reason I'm going to respond to it anyway.

Uhm, not really <_<

She gets 3HKOd in 2-P, 2-E and 3-9 (and almost all chapters afterwards).

That's...not bad.

Nobody is a bad support partner per se.

Tanith is a lot better though.

Read smash's post here:

Tanith can't really leverage her affinity, since not only does she have to build it up from scratch (it'll be like, C after 3-E is completed, then a B before 4-E, and then maybe an A by the dragon chapter), but has to actually find someone. I suppose a hawk wouldn't mind waiting around supportless until 3-11. But still, it takes time for the support to build up, and only until then is it even a debate (until Tanith can clearly win durability, since Marcia has the offense lead).

You're delusional.

6 - 7 level ups in 4 chapters in HM with only one chapter of potential Paragon use? No way, man. No way.

Uh, yes way?

Not really. Where do you get exp from when you can't kill enemies? When you have only 4 chapters to catch up?

Unless you give her massive amounts of cheap kills there's no way that she hits -/10 until 3-11.

"Can't kill enemies?" You see, the thing is, Marcia can kill enemies. She's generally 2 rounding.

Why would Tanith want to support Marcia of all the people? That's again blatant favouritism in Marcias favour since Tanith doesn't want to support her at all. You have a **** load of units from the GM, who all want to support somebody with Earth affinity and of all those people you'd choose Marcia? You can't be serious.

Tanith doesn't have offensive issues and that support only takes care of Marcias average durability.

The best support partners for Tanith are either Ulki or Janaff (probably Janaff).

Tanith wants to support Marcia for the following reasons:

-They match mobility

-She'd like the extra power.

-No one else is likely available. Why? Because they already have partners.

The Hawks would prefer Marcia anyway.

No crossbows? There's a whole bunch of them in the desert, in 4-2 and 4-4. All parties in pt4 will face crossbows in one of their chapters.

They have shit for move in the desert, which is likely where the Hawks are going. They'd prefer help against every enemy than just a few that they might not end up needing help against anyway.

Also, they're fine "on the defensive end" when they're transformed. If you give them their Earth support they're not even a liability untransformed, which is the biggest issue for any Laguz. A Laguz with little transformation issues, who can even be used to bait single enemy units is much more useful than that attack boost (especially since both Hawks have strong claims to Adept anyways).

Why the hell would I have them fight untransformed? They're pretty much at Endgame-ready stats right off the bat, so all the fighting is transformed to boost Strike levels.

Which includes Haa and Nealuchi in 2-P as combat units; Geoffrey, Kieran, Danved, Makalov and Astrid in 2-3; Elincia, Nealuchi, Lethe, Mordecai, Brom, Nephenee, Heather, Haar and Calill in 2-E and Kieran, Geoffrey, Astrid, Danved and Makalov in 3-9.

For 2-P, from dondon:

Marcia is the most entitled to kills, because since she and Nealuchi have similar attack, but Nealuchi has inferior EXP gain, attack order should be more often Nealuchi-Marcia than the other way around.

That's just the way it is. It isn't favoritism.

In 2-3, we likely aren't using Astrid, and Marcia's main job is to fly over trees and stuff to pick off guys in the way of Geoffrey and Kieran, and also kill the Horseslayer Paladin and Speedwing Halberdier.

2-E has plenty of enemies for everyone.

3-9 is a special case. You can pretty much say that the 1-2 CRK's we actually plan to use are entitled to be fed kills whenever possible, since anyone else will just be eating experience as we don't plan to use them later and our 1-2 guys have Paragon.

Writing it in big, bold letters doesn't make it true.

Except it is true.

She's 3HKOed ... untransformed Nealuchi is 4HKOed, Leanne doesn't get attacked, Elincia beats Marcia in every single stat and Haar is ... Haar. She's the biggest liability in the chapter.

Since she gets 3HKOed she can't ever attack with her Steel Lance (the only way to 2RKO the enemies here) on Player Phase otherwise she takes two hits from one Dracoknight (counter + enemy phase attack) and a third one will rape her. Some of them have hand axes ... she needs to use the Javelin, which doesn't 2RKO any of the enemies in 2-P.

And she still gets 3RKOed even with a Javelin.

"and due to being the only character taking damage, she has a monopoly on Elincia's staff"

So Haar is magically immune against any kind of attack, since apparently only Marcia can take damage? Also if you ever attack with anything else than the Javelin she will die before Elincia can even heal her. Monopoly won't help her in this case.

Oh. My. God. I'm going to enter Serious Rage Fox mode for a moment here.

What the fuck is this? Just to test how stupid the above paragraph is, I gave a friend of mine who doesn't fucking play Fire Emblem the following scenario:

We have this one unit. It takes 3 hits from enemies to kill her (a few take 4, but that's what I gave him). Enemies generally have <50% chances to hit her, and there are 10 enemies that are spread out, some of whom don't move for a while. There are three others with this one unit. Two will never be hit and take miniscule damage if hit, the other won't be attacked. One of those three heals, and since her offense is shit that's all she's doing. Oh, and a 4th guy comes in who will never die either. Now, is there any chance the original unit will die as long as the player isn't a complete retard?

He didn't even have to think. He knew the answer, and it was "no." No bias, all truth.

@ bolded: What the fuck? Haar is 4HKOd by the fucking boss, who he 2 rounds. The next strongest is a 6HKO and it goes down to a laughable 16HKO. And this is when half or more of the map is already fucking cleared. Did you miss the part where Haar is Top tier?

*Exiting Serious Rage Fox mode.*

Because your allies are high in number from the very beginning? Because they will kill ~30% or more of the enemies on the map? Because 5 other units are there and want to get Exp too?

Allies kill 30% of enemies on the map? On what planet? They killed, like, 3 when I did a max BEXP run of this chapter, and none when I don't go for BEXP. And newsflash, not everyone is entitled to kills. Anyone we don't plan on using and also sucks, like Astrid, Makalov, and Danved, likely won't get many, if any, kills, because the player is not an idiot who feeds kills to bad units s/he doesn't plan to use.

If you let her fight with Javelins she won't get many kills.

She'll counter. That's the point of it.

Also your argument includes ridiculous amounts of favouritism: Giving her free kills and Paragon?

I already explained why it's easy for her to get.

Sounds like bias/fanboyism to me. Nobody is entitled to anything.

I need some kind of alcoholic beverage...Someone? Anyone?

Why? My good friend kirsche said the exact same thing. This was my reply.

The hell is this? We must be doing all-Laguz runs, since no one being entitled to anything means no one should get a weapon.

You have resources. You use them.

She doesn't have stronger claims to the free kills you'd in 2-P and 2-E than Haar, Nephenee, Mordy, Lethe or Brom do. In fact they have stronge claims than her because they'll be more useful that way in pt3.

OMG bias/favoritism/fanboyism alert!

And why should she be entitled to Paragon, when Calill with Paragon and a Master Crown can promote before/at 3-11 to use staves, get promo boni and hit those damned generals at their weak spot from a safe distance?

Why shouldn't I give them to Kieran, who is much closer to promotion? You might want to use the crown to promote Geoffrey for 3-9 or Calill later.

Go ahead and give it to one of them. Now give me a good reason for us to use all 3 in one run of the game.

Yes, Haar can take damage like any other unit and he might get hit/countered on his player phase move.

The problem is:

"Due to Marcia actually being used and the fact that wer'e unlikely to use two more of Calill, Kieran, Makalov, and Danved, she's practically entitled to Paragon."

You assume that Marcia "is actually used" by default. Why? There's nothing about her that makes her more worthy than Kieran, Geoffrey, Calill and even Mak/Dan.

I don't know, maybe because we're, like, arguing about her? We can't talk about how good she is if we don't use her.

You just say "she's being used" and use that as a basis for your argument...as well as favouritism.

In the case of the CRK's, being used is all they need. This has been addressed.

[Yojinbo]

You write such a long post and all I see is strawmaning?

You basically say: "Shove all your resources in Marcia's ass since all the other CRKs suck". Well of course they suck, if you give all the resources, which they're just as much entitled to as Marcia is, to one single unit.

If I let Makalov kill an unusual amount of enemies, give him Paragon and let him get 5 level ups in 3 chapters and finally crown him he won't suck but Marica will.

If I let Danved kill toons of enemies in 2-3, give gim Paragon and let him get 5 level ups in 3 chapters and finally crown him he won't suck either but Marcia will.

If you use that logic for Marcia, you should use it for everybody else (since this kind of logic applies to every unit in this case).

Marcia isn't more entitled to anything than the other CRKs. But you'd never admit that since in your head Marcia deserves everything and the rest of the CRKs just suck - nevermind the fact, that they'd be just as good as Marcia and that Marcia would suck just as much as them if you favoured Mak/Calill/Dan/Kieran.

Edited June 27, 2009 by Yojinbo

[Zkirsche]

Why? My good friend kirsche said the exact same thing. This was my reply.

The hell is this? We must be doing all-Laguz runs, since no one being entitled to anything means no one should get a weapon.

You have resources. You use them.

Funny, in Kurth vs Ena, the roles were reversed. Since you agreed with Cynthia, I'll post what she said:

You can't completely nullify an affinity lead by saying "they support each other", since there are cases where they don't support each other and thus one is providing better bonuses than the other.

[Florete]

You write such a long post and all I see is strawmaning?

You basically say: "Shove all your resources in Marcia's ass since all the other CRKs suck". Well of course they suck, if you give all the resources, which they're just as much entitled to as Marcia is, to one single unit.

If I let Makalov kill an unusual amount of enemies, give him Paragon and let him get 5 level ups in 3 chapters and finally crown him he won't suck but Marica will.

If I let Danved kill toons of enemies in 2-3, give gim Paragon and let him get 5 level ups in 3 chapters and finally crown him he won't suck either but Marcia will.

If you use that logic for Marcia, you should use it for everybody else (since this kind of logic applies to every unit in this case).

Marcia isn't more entitled to anything than the other CRKs. But you'd never admit that since in your head Marcia deserves everything and the rest of the CRKs just suck - nevermind the fact, that they'd be just as good as Marcia and that Marcia would suck just as much as them if you favoured Mak/Calill/Dan/Kieran.

Way to completely miss the entire point.

Okay, let's debate Makalov's position on the tier list. Now he's getting everything Marcia was just getting. Kills in 2-3 and 3-9, Paragon in 3-9, etc. Why? Because he's being actively used in this scenario. The problem is that this scenario doesn't occur often because Makalov is not a good character, like pretty much all of the CRK's, so anyone we're assuming to be used is going to get this "favoritism" because no one else on the team will make any use of it. This can be done for any CRK (with a partial exception for Geoffrey).

Funny, in Kurth vs Ena, the roles were reversed. Since you agreed with Cynthia, I'll post what she said:

Yeah, and she's right. You can't completely nullify it. But you can downgrade it quite a damn bit. Given the joining situations, Tanith's affinity lead is virtually non-existent. The only people left are each other and the Hawks, and the Hawks prefer offense, so we can almost say Marcia is the one with an affinity advantage. You read smash's post on why Tanith can't really leverage her affinity.

Otherwise, I don't see how your response had anything to do with what you were replying to.

Edited June 27, 2009 by Rage Fox

[Colonel M]

For the Pelleas thing, yes on Ena and no on Kurth.

Kurth is at least doing something with Night Tide, but we're taking a pretty frail unit with us (okay, not TOTALLY frail, but other than Tide he's pretty useless). With all the resources dumped into Kurth, one could've done that with Pelleas and make him marginally useful in Endgame.

[Mekkah]

Yojinbo, let's imagine we are playing a game where the first 5 units you get are absolute crap (think 20 hp and 4 across the board elsewhere). For the first three chapters, we can only use those. And in those chapters there's favouritism available that no one else can use. Things like FE4 stat bonus villages, swappable skills, but also of course EXP from enemies.

After those 3 chapters, 5 more strong units join (think 30-40 hp and 15+ in every stat). They outclass the first 5 in every way possible. And in the chapters that keep coming, we get more and more strong units.

It is very unlikely that we are using any of the first five crap units after we get more and more better contenders. However, when making a tier list, an individual unit's position is determined by what they can mean for you if they are actively used. Look at how unlikely it is for those weaklings from the first maps to be used alongside with a weak one already assumed in play.

Favouritism is not off limits. It can be used, nearly assumed, if it's not taking anything away from the team, or nearly anything. Give one of the weaklings all the resources from the first few chapters, and they might be worth something later on. The impact on the team is little to none, because those other units are all gonna be dropped.

[grandjackal]

You basically say: "Shove all your resources in Marcia's ass since all the other CRKs suck". Well of course they suck, if you give all the resources, which they're just as much entitled to as Marcia is, to one single unit.

If I let Makalov kill an unusual amount of enemies, give him Paragon and let him get 5 level ups in 3 chapters and finally crown him he won't suck but Marica will.

If I let Danved kill toons of enemies in 2-3, give gim Paragon and let him get 5 level ups in 3 chapters and finally crown him he won't suck either but Marcia will.

If you use that logic for Marcia, you should use it for everybody else (since this kind of logic applies to every unit in this case).

Marcia isn't more entitled to anything than the other CRKs. But you'd never admit that since in your head Marcia deserves everything and the rest of the CRKs just suck - nevermind the fact, that they'd be just as good as Marcia and that Marcia would suck just as much as them if you favoured Mak/Calill/Dan/Kieran.

Uhhh, there are these things called stat caps. They practically forbid any paladin from having any point in part 4, as the game handily works against paladin effort part 4. Keiran's gonna turn out pretty bad come part 3, and thanks to his speed and accuracy he won't improve much. Makalov has speed growth, but his caps fuck him over. On top of that, he's weak and has swords to back it up. If we give him favoritism, best he'll end up is being tough part 4, but being piss weak. Danved has the luxury of not being a garbage class, but the problem he has garbage growths. Astrid...I don't even want to explain. There's no reason to use any of these people seriously. Geoffery's awesome, but when he returns he's pretty much doomed to suck. There is no way to fix it. Marcia is the only one who can seriously improve outside of Calill, who's saving grace is a single tome called Rexflame. 2 out of basically the entireity of part 2, only 2 are able to noticeably improve, now ask yourself. Why would you give kills to units that are gonna suck regardless?

Using your logic, we should not favor Nolan/Zihark/Volgu/what other good DB units to be considered, and treat everyone on hte team equally. Now have fun part 3 and 4.

[Zkirsche]

Anything on Ilyana > Leo?

Yeah, and she's right. You can't completely nullify it. But you can downgrade it quite a damn bit. Given the joining situations, Tanith's affinity lead is virtually non-existent. The only people left are each other and the Hawks, and the Hawks prefer offense, so we can almost say Marcia is the one with an affinity advantage. You read smash's post on why Tanith can't really leverage her affinity.

Otherwise, I don't see how your response had anything to do with what you were replying to.

The fact is that you are completely nullifying it to the point of saying it's absurd to think otherwise.

My response is saying that since Tanith has the better affinity, and the fact that it shouldn't be completely nullified, she's the better support patrner.

Edited June 27, 2009 by kirsche

[charmander6000]

You know in the middle of all this I don't see how Marcia is getting any favouritism in any chapter before the merge. Even if you are using more than two units I've already proved that Marcia helps in 3-11 more than any other CRK after Paragon use.

[dondon151]

You basically say: "Shove all your resources in Marcia's ass since all the other CRKs suck". Well of course they suck, if you give all the resources, which they're just as much entitled to as Marcia is, to one single unit.

If I let Makalov kill an unusual amount of enemies, give him Paragon and let him get 5 level ups in 3 chapters and finally crown him he won't suck but Marica will.

If I let Danved kill toons of enemies in 2-3, give gim Paragon and let him get 5 level ups in 3 chapters and finally crown him he won't suck either but Marcia will.

The other CRKs aren't that much worse than Marcia, but as Mekkah said, if we plan on using any 1 or 2 of them seriously, then favoritism has to be applied (this is only for 1 map, btw).

If you truly believe that nothing is entitled, then no one gets anything and sucks forever, but on top of that, we have a plethora of resources that we just discarded because of some dumb philosophical position in a tier list debate. No efficient player actually discards those resources. If a tier list doesn't reflect this basic way that a player plays the game, then it's not an accurate tier list.

[grandjackal]

Speaking of resources, what of Stat Boosters? I'm not exactly great at RD, so knowing who best to be used on would be great to know. I'd imagine the dracoshield that Leo starts with is best in Eddie's hands...

Looking into it more, Lucia with the talisman can just be BEXPd the rest of the way with the best effects. I wouldn't imagine this makes her much better, but at least she'll suck less when she returns.

Should it be assumed to use stat boosters for best bexp effect, correct situation *Eddie with the dracoshield early on*, or is it situational to the character?

Edited June 27, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[charmander6000]

If you don't want to go back and look for my post I'll post a summary.

Geoffrey - Shouldn't use it since you lose a Paragon for 3 chapters

Kieran - Goes from 3RKO to 3RKO against 3-11 enemies with Paragon use

Marcia - Goes from 4RKO to 2RKO against 3-11 enemies with Paragon use because she can double

Makalov - Goes from 4RKO to 4RKO against 3-11 enemies with Paragon use

Danved - Goes from 4RKO to 4RKO against 3-11 enemies with Paragon use

Astrid - Goes from 5RKO to 4RKO against 3-11 enemies with Paragon use, with Silencer.

Calill - Goes from 3RKO to 3RKO against 3-11 enemies with Paragon use, with max fire forge.

Marcia helps the team more with Paragon during 3-9, just like Adept is best on Mia.

[Vykan12]

For Marcia to double in 3-11, she needs ~26 spd. That would mean giving her 10 level-ups in 4 chapters, which is insane. 2-3 has too many unpromoted enemies and she's not good enough in 2-E for that to happen.

Edited June 27, 2009 by Vykan12

[-Cynthia-]

For Marcia to double in 3-11, she needs ~26 spd. That would mean giving her 10 level-ups in 4 chapters, which is insane. 2-3 has too many unpromoted enemies and she's not good enough in 2-E for that to happen.

Vykan's right, Marcia won't be doubling in 3-11, Paragon or not (unless she gets a Spd transfer, in which case --/11 is fairly reasonable). However, transfers are iffy, so Marcia just isn't very good in 3-11.

Edited June 27, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Narga_Rocks]

In 3-11 the only things she needs 26 speed for is a few warriors and swordmasters. The hm data might say 22 speed for halbs, but Int said he generally went high end. There are likely a few halbs with 21. And all those paladins and mages on the map only have 19/20 speed, mostly, so is there any CRK that could possibly get 24 speed but Marcia? And she'll likely reach 25 speed partway through 3-11 anyway. So she doesn't yet double warriors. Oh well, she will by her second chapter of part 4 if you use her, and everything in 4-E but swordmasters. I don't see how any of the CRKs but Calill could ever match that, and Calill needs rexflame for some of it and unless you want to use the hammerne on a 15 use weapon you have to be careful not to break it until 4-E-3. Why are we raising any male CRK, anyway?

[Vykan12]

Maybe you're not getting just how high 15 would be for her. She's lucky to get 1 level per chapter in part 2, which would put her at level 8. That would roughly put her on level with 3-9 enemies, meaning she's getting 20 exp per hit and 40 per kill with paragon. So for 7 levels, she'd need 15 kills + 10 attacks or 10 kills + 20 attacks, more if you consider exp degradation after every level she gains. She'd need to solo about half the map, but I don't even think she's capable of doing that without a brave lance or something.

Edited June 27, 2009 by Vykan12

[Narga_Rocks]

But even if she only gets 5 levels in 2-P, 2-3, 2-E, 3-9 combined, she is still going to have 23 speed and match Tanith's speed. She'll still double most mages and paladins, and thus still see much greater improvement in 3-11 than the other CRK's if paragon was needed to get to level 10. And the way you play may mean she is lucky to get 3 levels in part 2, but that doesn't mean everyone plays that way. She's halfway there at the end of 2-P if you play it right.

Now, I've always had a transfer Marcia, so +2 str, skl, spd goes a long way. For example, Javelin in one round + steel lance in the next ORKOs all but like one enemy aside from the boss in 2-P. But looking at her base stats, having Nealuchi there to help, Elincia can heal twice in a round if necessary. Honestly, Marcia needs levels in part 2 to help, Elincia needs levels to get good faster in part 4, Haar will do just fine in 2-E starting with 30 experience instead of 70, or something. Nealuchi will get the exact same exp and strike levels regardless. Why not play 2-P well enough to actually get Marcia and Elincia experience? And there are plenty of thunder sages for Marcia to kill while Haar is killing physicals and Elincia is killing crossbows in 2-E. 4 levels, minimum, for starting 3-9, and at least 2 levels in 3-9. Level 11 is 23.9 speed for 3-11, and 25.9 with transfers. I really don't see how that's so hard.

Edited June 27, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Vykan12]

Bleh, I looked at their averages a bit, and even an --/11/0 Marcia is arguably better than Tanith.

[grandjackal]

Anyone think Lethe and Kyza climb above Danved? Lethe and Kyza at least have move on their side, Danved's stuck with armies that are always ahead of him. He rarely sees action ever. Training him up is pointless, as he doesn't even grow into anything worthwile. You need...34 speed to be prime endgame material, right? His cap kicks him in the balls, not that he'll ever reach it. Even when he reaches the enemy, he's rather reliant on his killer lance to do much.

I'd venture Kyza's relative ok-ness and Lethe's speed in part 2 is better than Danved doing...whatever.

Figure I'd bring this up, since Pelleas might go down below them anyways, and I feel Danved's still better than him.

[Narga_Rocks]

You know, before discussing guys like Makalov and Danved, we probably need to determine what we are doing in 2-3. Are we routing? Are we killing as many as possible on the way to the boss but not necessarily all of them? Are we attempting to kill as few as possible to get the 50 units alive for bonus experience? Or at least 40, anyway. If we are killing them, Danved and Makalov might actually level once before 3-9, and maybe 2 or 3 total by the end of it. And what do we even do with all the bexp from 2-3 if the CRKs don't get to fight like crazy in it. Even on HM, it is good for maybe 3 levels depending on the unit's level and those 3 levels probably help more in 2-E than in 3-9, so do any of the CRK's deserve that little boost that will only help them in 3-9? How much better is it to give to Haar or Neph or Brom for a little boost in 2-E and the beginning of part 3 even if it costs a few stat points relative to what they would get for the same levels in cexp? Neph with a couple of levels will actually double stuff in 2-E, for example.

I'm saying it is pretty tough for Makalov and Danved to be considered good when they just draw enemies unequipped in 2-3 and hope to hit stuff with 60-70% hit rates in 2-E. Then in 3-9 they are out of the top 3 when there are only 7 units. And since Calill has a better endgame offensively, there is little point in raising them over her in 3-9. Thus they might be out of the top 4 in how we actually use them. But shouldn't Danved get a little boost for not taking the slot of someone better than he is? Lethe I can see going above Danved, but only because 2-2 has a stupid number of turns for max bexp (7). She can do a bit of walling in 2-E on a couple of turns but that is similar to Danved drawing enemies unequipped in 2-3. But, if we are fighting in 2-3, then I think Danved is better than Lethe because his 7 move is enough to fight against a fair number of enemies, and an extra bit of wall for letting Astrid poke at stuff. Plus he is now that little bit stronger in 3-11 and might actually be useable. If he can get to 20/6 by 4-E-1 and 20/10 by 4-E-2 then he can double most things in both chapters. He just misses on a couple of generals in 4-E-1 and warriors and swordmasters in 4-E-2. Without the extra fighting in 2-3 I think it is harder to get him there.

[charmander6000]

For Marcia to double in 3-11, she needs ~26 spd. That would mean giving her 10 level-ups in 4 chapters, which is insane. 2-3 has too many unpromoted enemies and she's not good enough in 2-E for that to happen.

I'm looking at the HM enemy stats topic and with 24 speed she doubles most things, which she can realistically get and even if she isn't doubling everything, that's more than what the other CRK and Tanith can say.

[Mekkah]

Danved's stuck with armies that are always ahead of him. He rarely sees action ever

This is true in 2-3, but 2-3 consists of mostly not killing. Then in 3-9, Danved is less affected by thickets and ledges. Lethe is a cat, and cats lose to almost anything by default unless they're Ranulf...imo.

Giving Danved two levels for 2-3 + 3-9, and Lethe one level for part 2, plus two levels for part 3 until 3-11 (3-4, 3-7, 3-8, 3-10...probably being generous but w/e), and here's what we're looking at.

--/11 Danved

40.5 hp, 17.8 str, 23.6 skl, 21.9 spd, 19.2 luk, 15.9 def, 12.5 res

Steel Greatlance: 31.8 atk, 136.4 hit, 16.8 crt

Killer Lance: 26.8 atk, 146.4 hit, 36.8 crt

24 Lethe

53.6 hp, 20.2 str, 27.8 skl, 27 spd, 19.4 luk, 20.4 def, 21.2 res

Stupid Cat Claw: 28.2 atk, infinite hit, 13.9 crt

Go ahead and compare that to losing meter, I'm too lazy.