OMG it's a tier list

[grandjackal]

I'll agree that Lucia is beating Kieran offensively, though Kieran being able to Hammer Generals is a point in his favor, and if they both double or neither double Kieran wins. Lucia is his inferior defensively, she's getting 2-3HKOd, Kieran's getting 4-5HKOd.

Keiran only doubles the healers by the boss. Only way he's doubling anything is if he got LUCKY with bexp giving him speed rather than luck at the only likely chance he has, at which he doubles the slowest generals. Generals however are incredibly tough, so him using one hammer blow is better than Lucia needing like 5. However, she outright destroys him everywhere else as you have conceded.

Also no, check those stats again. The ones I posted up there a bit back. She gets 3-4HKOd. It's not that big a gap.

Speaking of which, those swordmasters not only can double Keiran, they're pulling crit on him.

Lucia only has 73 Avo at base level, Enemies range from 127-167 Hit, she's facing hit rates of 54-94% displayed without factoring in Tibarn's leadership or thickets, like you said you did. Now, if you factor in the authority star bonuses and a thicket boost it's +35 avoid (bond supports don't add avoid). This drops enemy hit rates to 19-59% displayed, which is good, but not as good as Kieran's concrete durability lead. As for hit issues, Kieran doesn't have a lot due to Tibarn's stars and +hit from his affinity.

(32x2)+20=84, yur math b bad yo. Lucia won't be base level, as just a bexp favoritism and a stat booster no one else gives a shit about is much less effort than Keiran being pretty meh-terrible AND needing paragon AND taking the resource that is a unit slot. Even with the favoritism of bexp stacked on top of that, she STILL outperforms him with less resources. Was it worth it?

Kieran can get Wyrmslayer post-promotion anyway. Lucia's durability takes a dive here, since Izuka has an authority star and laguz have lots of Hit.

I WISH I could debate this, but for some damn reason stats on the laguz don't exist. All I can say is that Cats aren't that strong, they don't double Lucia, and that she might even have a support built up with Elincia/Calill/Tauroneo to C, which gives a bit more avoid. Not saying you're wrong, just not as right as you think.

You actually have a pretty good point here. Zihark is 11 levels behind Lucia and has 8-10 chapters(probably 8) compared to Lucia's 1 pre Part 4 chapter to make up the difference, so if he gains a level a chapter he'd still be behind. Since Zihark is top tier partially due to his part 4 performance, Lucia being comparable to him isn't all bad. He does hit a little harder than she does, and will have a durability lead before Lucia gets her supports in, but he isn't that much better. However, this doesn't apply all that much to Lucia vs. Kieran.

Do you know ANY paladin that performs as well as Zihark endgame? No. Now keep in mind that Keiran is far from the best paladin...

He has 5 chapters pre-Part 4, Lucia has 1. Kind of important. And unlike someone like Makalov, Kieran is a great unit for most of these, he's pretty average in 3-11 and 3-E.

Part 2 chapters? He's got Geoffery's charge indeed. Epilogue? He's hardly doing a damn thing by the time the CRK show up. 3-11 and 3-E? He takes a unit slot to be average, where Lucia took none. Even with all these resources put into him, and he's STILL not as good as Lucia, especially since Lucia needs less resources than he? Fuck Keiran.

Stefan is the most failsafe.

Forgot about him.

[-Cynthia-]

My numbers were assuming base level Lucia, not BEXP fed Lucia. If we start throwing in resources, we can toss Kieran a Speedwing to fix his doubling issues and such. Paragon for Kieran is only assumed for 3-9, not for other chapters.

Does anyone want to oppose Lucia>Makalov by the way? I can't see a whole lot of convicing arguments for Makalov.

Edited June 28, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[grandjackal]

My numbers were assuming base level Lucia, not BEXP fed Lucia. If we start throwing in resources, we can toss Kieran a Speedwing to fix his doubling issues and such. Paragon for Kieran is only assumed for 3-9, not for other chapters.

Does anyone want to oppose Lucia>Makalov by the way? I can't see a whole lot of convicing arguments for Makalov.

Congratulations, you made him go from doubling generally nothing to only doubling generals, who he already won against anyways.

This doesn't account for the unit slots, the CEXP and the BEXP AND Paragon he needed just to get that far...

As a note, Keiran needs a speedwing just to match Lucia if she took a Talisman? No one gives a flying fuck about the Talisman, and you just assumed you could get away with giving Keiran a speedwing?

I do agree though, she's at LEAST better than Mak.

I at least want to see her above that failboat Rolf. Seriously, how the fuck is he in mid?

Edited June 28, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[-Cynthia-]

Congratulations, you made him go from doubling generally nothing to only doubling generals, who he already won against anyways.

This doesn't account for the unit slots, the CEXP and the BEXP AND Paragon he needed just to get that far...

As a note, Keiran needs a speedwing just to match Lucia if she took a Talisman? No one gives a flying fuck about the Talisman, and you just assumed you could get away with giving Keiran a speedwing?

You're giving Lucia a Talisman and a lot of BEXP, the Talisman by itself just improves her Res. Plus, Haar might want it maybe.

20/1 Kieran with only 3-9 Paragon access by 4-2 without BEXP is pretty reasonable. He doesn't take up a slot on 2-3/2-E/3-9 and he's good enough on 3-11/3-E that taking up a slot isn't a huge detriment (we get like 10 slots anyway).

Rolf has good growths and a lot of availability to use them. There really is no point in using him though, since every GM but Soren is better than he is.

Edited June 28, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Jaybee]

No one gives a flying fuck about the Talisman

Haar or Ike.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Joshybear25

[grandjackal]

You're giving Lucia a Talisman and a lot of BEXP, the Talisman by itself just improves her Res. Plus, Haar might want it maybe.

20/1 Kieran with only 3-9 Paragon access by 4-2 without BEXP is pretty reasonable. He doesn't take up a slot on 2-3/2-E/3-9 and he's good enough on 3-11/3-E that taking up a slot isn't a huge detriment (we get like 10 slots anyway).

Rolf has good growths and a lot of availability to use them. There really is no point in using him though, since every GM but Soren is better than he is.

Perhaps I should show numbers at how unreasonable that is.

First off, Keiran is not entitled to all the exp in his chapter. Feeding all the exp to him is rediculous, and makes Marcia cry. Hell, even Danved and Makalov might be a little pissed. The boss is also a tad too unsafe to fight unless you're Geoff with the brave lance. Besides, I'm not gonna take it slow and just slowly feed it all to Keiran and shit. We got allies, lets use them. Their actions bring BEXP to the pool anyways, and they can only serve to make the chapter go faster.

Next chapter he's in, he's either killing one person, or helping kill one person. I speak of the general with the silver greatlance, and we might have taken the hammer with Marcia so Haar or Brom can use it more effectively on this very map.

3-9, he is good here, and lessay he's not got paragon here...OH GODDAMMIT, no stats here -_-;; rrr...Either way, I recall enemies being low leveled here. I don't think Keiran is exactly getting much exp here. He COULD take paragon, but Marcia and Calill raeg. Even Mak's fwapping him on the head.

3-11...I'm...trying to remember what chapter this is.

3-E, I don't recall him doing well here, but I've no stats to back my claim up.

Either way, you seem to have forgotten an important fact, the fact he's a high leveled dickhead fighting low leveled noobs. Now explain how he got 9 levels in 5 chapters...

[grandjackal]

You're giving Lucia a Talisman and a lot of BEXP, the Talisman by itself just improves her Res. Plus, Haar might want it maybe.

20/1 Kieran with only 3-9 Paragon access by 4-2 without BEXP is pretty reasonable. He doesn't take up a slot on 2-3/2-E/3-9 and he's good enough on 3-11/3-E that taking up a slot isn't a huge detriment (we get like 10 slots anyway).

Rolf has good growths and a lot of availability to use them. There really is no point in using him though, since every GM but Soren is better than he is.

Perhaps I should show numbers at how unreasonable that is.

First off, Keiran is not entitled to all the exp in his chapter. Feeding all the exp to him is rediculous, and makes Marcia cry. Hell, even Danved and Makalov might be a little pissed. The boss is also a tad too unsafe to fight unless you're Geoff with the brave lance. Besides, I'm not gonna take it slow and just slowly feed it all to Keiran and shit. We got allies, lets use them. Their actions bring BEXP to the pool anyways, and they can only serve to make the chapter go faster.

Next chapter he's in, he's either killing one person, or helping kill one person. I speak of the general with the silver greatlance, and we might have taken the hammer with Marcia so Haar or Brom can use it more effectively on this very map.

3-9, he is good here, and lessay he's not got paragon here...OH GODDAMMIT, no stats here -_-;; rrr...Either way, I recall enemies being low leveled here. I don't think Keiran is exactly getting much exp here. He COULD take paragon, but Marcia and Calill raeg. Even Mak's fwapping him on the head.

3-11...I'm...trying to remember what chapter this is.

3-E, I don't recall him doing well here, but I've no stats to back my claim up.

Either way, you seem to have forgotten an important fact, the fact he's a high leveled dickhead fighting low leveled noobs. Now explain how he got 9 levels in 5 chapters...

Especially considering how mediocre he is upon joining with Ike's group.

EDIT: Woops, pardon the double post. Something fucked up, this was an accident.

As for Ike and Haar getting the Talisman? They barely ever deal with magic part 3, Haar's not a good endgame cantidate, and Ike can't magically pull 3 Str, Luck and Def out his ass using it.

I've now just realized only numbers I really used here were chapters, parts, and how Keiran can't possibly get 9 levels in 5 chapters.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[-Cynthia-]

This has been previously explored in this topic- any CRK is pretty much entitled to 3-9 Paragon because odds are we're only using 1-2 of them anyway.

If you don't like 20/1 Kieran, another comparison can be made.

17/0 Kieran (forged Silver Axe)

45 HP 44 Atk 22 AS 22 Def 13 Res 62 Avo

14/0 Lucia (forged Silver Sword)

38 HP 35 Atk 27 AS 14 Def 15 Res 73 Avo

Kieran wins durability, 7 HP and 8 Def > 2 Res and 11 Avo. Lucia does win offense, but Kieran does have a 9 Atk lead, so it's not by a whole lot.

Basically, Lucia is tying with Kieran for 4-2/4-5 at best and beats him in 4-E. I would say that Lucia's 4-E win is less important than Kieran's pre part 4 win.

[grandjackal]

This has been previously explored in this topic- any CRK is pretty much entitled to 3-9 Paragon because odds are we're only using 1-2 of them anyway.

If you don't like 20/1 Kieran, another comparison can be made.

17/0 Kieran (forged Silver Axe)

45 HP 44 Atk 22 AS 22 Def 13 Res 62 Avo

14/0 Lucia (forged Silver Sword)

38 HP 35 Atk 27 AS 14 Def 15 Res 73 Avo

Kieran wins durability, 7 HP and 8 Def > 2 Res and 11 Avo. Lucia does win offense, but Kieran does have a 9 Atk lead, so it's not by a whole lot.

Basically, Lucia is tying with Kieran for 4-2/4-5 at best and beats him in 4-E. I would say that Lucia's 4-E win is less important than Kieran's pre part 4 win.

Even with Paragon for 3 chapters (one of which there is a level gap between him and his enemies), 9 levels is rediculous. This is also considering he's mediocre for his part 3, has about equal use part 2 (both have a chapter of win, Keiran barely does jack shit the next chapter). He's got a single chapter at best, of which is 3-9. Also consider the 2 chapters of which he needs to be on par with Lucia who's freaking base level, he needs to take up a unit slot, and that for Lucia's route she does not take up a unit slot. CEXP, BEXP, unit slot, Paragon AND possibly a speedwing is more favoritism than some bexp and a Talisman no one puts to as good use as she. Nevermind he needed that just to compare in some form with her at base.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[-Cynthia-]

Kieran starts at level 11. I gave him 6 levels in 5 chapters, one of which he has Paragon for, I don't think that's unreasonable.

I don't know where you're pulling all this stuff out of the air from. Lucia's only gets value from the Talisman if you BEXP her first. Kieran using CEXP isn't a negative when you consider by him doing so, he's helping to clear chapters, same with the unit slot. The comparison I gave simply has Kieran being used for the chapters he's available, just like Lucia.

Edited June 28, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[grandjackal]

Kieran starts at level 11. I gave him 6 levels in 5 chapters, one of which he has Paragon for, I don't think that's unreasonable.

I don't know where you're pulling all this stuff out of the air from. Lucia's only gets value from the Talisman if you BEXP her first. Kieran using CEXP isn't a negative when you consider by him doing so, he's helping to clear chapters, same with the unit slot. The comparison I gave simply has Kieran being used for the chapters he's available, just like Lucia.

I know, just saying the fact he's not gonna be promoted by the time she shows up.

Problem with that is the fact that he doesn't help clear those chapters faster, as he has a lot of other people to contend with for his unit slot. Unless you can prove he deserves those unit slots for 3-11 and 3-E, Keiran's in trouble here. Unfortunately, and this is the reason I can only pull stuff out of the air, there are no stats for either chapter. There are others who can use CEXP as well as he does, but with BEXP it's relative to your stats and how you grow. Considering Lucia can use it immediately and the effect it has on her, she's perfectly entitled to that bexp.

Until those stats show up though, I suppose this is on hold then.

Speaking of which, I just remembered the hammer. You have 2 over the course of the game, of which that means there are 40 uses, I believe 4 reserved for the fight against the Black Knight for Ike. Basically you have 36 uses over the course of the game. You get them all during part 2. Both are going to part 3, because waiting for Keiran to show up with the other one is not putting it to good use. Do you think 36 uses are gonna last over the time of part 3?

Edited June 28, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Colonel M]

Well, since I'm assuming HM stats are nothing more but improved levels, one can take the base stats, apply the growths, and figure the stuff out from there. Though it isn't fool-proof.

[grandjackal]

Well, since I'm assuming HM stats are nothing more but improved levels, one can take the base stats, apply the growths, and figure the stuff out from there. Though it isn't fool-proof.

It doesn't even have enemy levels for those chapters.

[Colonel M]

It doesn't even have enemy levels for those chapters.

Hm, some of them did, which was why I suggested it.

[Florete]

3-9, he is good here, and lessay he's not got paragon here...OH GODDAMMIT, no stats here -_-;; rrr...Either way, I recall enemies being low leveled here. I don't think Keiran is exactly getting much exp here. He COULD take paragon, but Marcia and Calill raeg. Even Mak's fwapping him on the head.

?

Chapter 3-9

1x Warrior lvl 9 (Steel Poleax)
HP 41, Atk 37, AS 20, Hit 114, Avo 54, DEF 16, RES 9, Crit 10, Ddg 14
1x Warrior lvl 8 (Steel Axe, *Hand Axe)
HP 40, Atk 33, AS 20, Hit 127, Avo 54, DEF 15, RES 9, Crit 9, Ddg 14

4x Halberdier lvl 7 (Steel Lance, north one has *Speedwing)
HP 36, Atk 29, AS 19, Hit 130, Avo 50, DEF 18, RES 13, Crit 14, Ddg 12
1x Halberdier lvl 8 (Steel Greatlance)
HP 36, Atk 33, AS 20, Hit 123, Avo 53, DEF 18, RES 13, Crit 15, Ddg 13
1x Halberdier lvl 8 (Javelin)
HP 36, Atk 26, AS 20, Hit 118, Avo 53, DEF 18, RES 13, Crit 15, Ddg 13
1x Halberdier lvl 9 (Short spear, *Steel Lance)
HP 36, Atk 29, AS 20, Hit 108, Avo 53, DEF 19, RES 13, Crit 15, Ddg 13
3x Soldier lvl 20 (Steel Lance)
HP 33, Atk 28, AS 18, Hit 121, Avo 45, DEF 15, RES 9, Crit 8, Ddg 9

1x Swordmaster lvl 7 (Steel Blade)
HP 33, Atk 30, AS 22, Hit 123, Avo 58, DEF 15, RES 10, Crit 21, Ddg 14
1x Swordmaster lvl 7 (Steel Sword)
HP 33, Atk 25, AS 22, Hit 142, Avo 57, DEF 15, RES 10, Crit 21, Ddg 13
1x Swordmaster lvl 8 (Steel Sword)
HP 33, Atk 26, AS 23, Hit 143, Avo 60, DEF 15, RES 11, Crit 21, Ddg 14
1x Swordmaster lvl 7 (Wind Edge)
HP 32, Atk 23, AS 23, Hit 118, Avo 60, DEF 15, RES 11, Crit 21, Ddg 14

1x Axe General lvl 9 (Steel Axe)
HP 39, Atk 32, AS 17, Hit 130, Avo 49, DEF 24, RES 14, Crit 10, Ddg 15
1x Sword General lvl 8 (Steel Sword)
HP 39, Atk 28, AS 18, Hit 136, Avo 51, DEF 23, RES 13, Crit 9, Ddg 15

2x Sniper lvl 7 (Steel Bow)
HP 36, Atk 30, AS 19, Hit 135, Avo 51, DEF 16, RES 11, Crit 20, Ddg 13

1x Roark lvl 12 (Halberdier boss, Spear, Concoction)
HP 42, Atk 35, AS 23, Hit 116, Avo 54, DEF 22, RES 15, Crit 22, Ddg 8

Reinforcements:

Turn 1, southeast--
2x Soldier lvl 20 (Steel Lance)
HP 33, Atk 28, AS 18, Hit 121, Avo 45, DEF 15, RES 9, Crit 8, Ddg 9

Turn 3, southwest--
1x Swordmaster lvl 8 (Steel Sword)
HP 33, Atk 26, AS 23, Hit 143, Avo 60, DEF 15, RES 11, Crit 21, Ddg 14
1x Warrior lvl 8 (Steel Axe)
HP 40, Atk 33, AS 20, Hit 127, Avo 54, DEF 15, RES 9, Crit 9, Ddg 14
1x Sniper lvl 7 (Steel Bow)
HP 36, Atk 30, AS 19, Hit 135, Avo 51, DEF 16, RES 11, Crit 20, Ddg 13

Turn 5, southeast--
2x Halberdier lvl 8 (Steel Lance)
HP 36, Atk 29, AS 20, Hit 133, Avo 53, DEF 18, RES 13, Crit 15, Ddg 13

Turn 6, northeast--
1x Halberdier lvl 8 (Steel Lance)
HP 36, Atk 29, AS 20, Hit 133, Avo 53, DEF 18, RES 13, Crit 15, Ddg 13
1x Soldier lvl 20 (Steel Lance)
HP 33, Atk 28, AS 18, Hit 121, Avo 45, DEF 15, RES 9, Crit 8, Ddg 9

Turn 7, same as Turn 1

Turn 8, same as Turn 5

Turn 10, northeast--
2x Halberdier lvl 9 (Steel Lance)
HP 37, Atk 29, AS 20, Hit 133, Avo 53, DEF 19. RES 13, Crit 15, Ddg 13

Special notes: none.

They're right in the HM stats topic....

[grandjackal]

!?

B-but...I just...I was...*slaps self* Must be more thorough x.x

Ok, so Keiran is still debatable, but you can admit that she's at least better than Mak, Rolf, even Geoff...

Edited June 28, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[charmander6000]

Let's see... I agree that Kieran is at 20/17 by part 4 and Lucia is still at 20/14, but a max silver forge is quite pricey, even if you have a lot of money.

4-2: Lucia borderlines 2RKO most enemies, while Kieran 3RKO. Kieran could be on another team, but enemies are roughly the same stats everywhere. Kieran is 4HKO, sometimes 3HKO by the stronger enemies while facing 60% display while Lucia is 2HKO while facing around 45% display. Lucia has bond support with Elincia which can help her crit while Kieran could use a hammer against generals. Pretty even though Lucia takes this in a close one.

Levels here are a bit hard to figure out, but I'll be nice and give Kieran the promotion (I have him pegged at 20/20 anyways) while Lucia hits 20/18.

4-5: I don't have hard mode stats for this chapter so I'll beef up the normal mode enemies. Kieran can borderline double Tigers if he gets his promotion while Lucia will gain the ability to double cats after she promotes mid-way through this chapter. Kieran 2RKO eveything except Red Dragons while Lucia needs to wait until promotion to do the same, but with Astra and gaining more crit with the promotion she'll easily outdo him offensively. Defensively Kieran is doing much better since laguz have high hit and Lucia's earth support hasn't kicked in. A major problem for Kieran is the swamp and reeds and even if he's on a different team his other choices are desert or indoors where he has to go the long way before getting to the action. Lucia wins once she promotes mid-chapter.

Endgame: I won't go into much detail here. By endgame Lucia's support is now in full power and while her strength is a bit low she has access to her mastery, high crit and possibly adept (depends who's there). Kieran while hard hitting can never double except in the dragon level where he could make a case at being better. He could use a hammer in the first part (though he can't ORKO), but there's likely to be another axe user at endgame and with hammers being scarce he may not get it.

Summary: Between the chapters they share I say Lucia takes this rather easily, but Kieran does have 2-3 and 3-9 plus he helps in 2-E, 3-11 and 3-E while Lucia only has 2-2 to combat with. Even with the earlier chapters I still have to give the slight win to Lucia.

[dondon151]

Lucia also gets something like 30+ base crit when standing next to Elincia.

[grandjackal]

Wow, she's actually better even without my crazy-ass idea, not that my idea is by any means farfetched, considering favortism being somewhat good in this game. Her's is rather minimal in comparison to some, or so I'd think.

Now for my next trick, watch Calill rise above the pure mid laguz...Nah, perhaps a bit too crazy. Lessee what looks good...

So, Eddie and Volke>Makalov? Eddie rather has more time to build up levels, and generally ends up better due to not being a shitty class. Eddie could also perhaps be considered more important than Mak for his parts. Mak's just a meh unit, while Volke just shows up to be pretty damn epic.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Florete]

Wait, so Lucia > Kieran? That's a decent gap. Should Kieran (and Geoffrey) go lower or should Lucia rise? And is anyone opposed to it?

[grandjackal]

Wait, so Lucia > Kieran? That's a decent gap. Should Kieran (and Geoffrey) go lower or should Lucia rise? And is anyone opposed to it?

You really think Keiran should go under Mak?

Lucia rise.

[Florete]

I'm not sure. I never saw Lucia as a Mid tier character. But it's not like only one can move. I can just even it out.

[grandjackal]

I'm not sure. I never saw Lucia as a Mid tier character. But it's not like only one can move. I can just even it out.

Considering she's a second failsafe swordmaster, I'd say it easily slips her into mid, just like every other unit who just shows up part 4 to be pretty good.

You aren't sure though? You think Makalov can rise as well? Personally I can see the difference between him and the two upper paladins, and I think Mak could drop below Eddie and Volke.

[dondon151]

I think you guys need to calm down because no one's argued anything yet.

[Florete]

I think you guys need to calm down because no one's argued anything yet.

And that's precisely why I haven't moved anyone yet.