OMG it's a tier list

[Zkirsche]

wtf @ the notion of imbue = seraph robe and dracoshield

I was being generous to Jill.

Unless you think Imbue > Draco shield + Seraph robe?

[Yojinbo]

So, even if you're generous to Jill, Tauroneo still wins. Agreed?

[Florete]

I think not much needs to be said about his performance in pt1...his two chapters are extremely difficult without him and I think it's actually unrealstic to beat 1-6-2 without him. Jill has two more chapters but she's pretty bad and has many restrictions...she won't double and with lvl14 she won't gain too many lvll ups to fix her mediocre stats. She either needs a Hand Axe or a Forge to be any useful. One of her biggest plusses - her mobility - is reduced in 1-7 and 1-E since they're indoor maps and she's not available in 1-8. Her performances in 1-6-1 and 1-6-2 are subpar and average at best in 1-7 and 1-E.

You're really overrating Tauroneo's performance. Of course he's amazing in 1-6, but saying it's unrealistic to beat it without him is seriously pushing it. And why can't Jill get a Hand Axe and a forge? You talk like that's too much favoritism. Then in a single level up she can double a good amount of 1-6-2 and 1-7 enemies as well, and her flight always helps. The movement reduction simply brings her down to the level of the rest of your team.

Taroneo in pt1 is god - he can't be killed realistically and he can block the Cavaliers by the bridge in 1-6-2, who would buttrape Micaiah, Laura, Leo, Meg and Edward otherwise and he is also by far the best unit in 1-6-1.

Or I can, you know, use people like Nolan, Aran, Sothe, and Volug to block them off. Hell, even Jill can do it pretty reliably with a Dracoshield or Seraph Robe.

So in 3-12 their stats look like that:

Jill 20/3

30HP, 16.6Str, 16.6Skl, 20.55Spd, 18.2Lck, 17.45Def;

Tauroneo -/14

38HP, 24Str, 22Skl, 20Spd, 18Lck, 21Def;

I'd put her more around 20/4-5 but whatever.

Tauroneo has a massive durability lead (+8HP, +4Def, a lot more res) and hits harder and more reliable (+8Str, +6Skl). Again Jill can hit + run but she won't kill a lot as she can't afford to fly right down into the mess and space is limited everywhere else. Jills flying utility is pretty good of course but she can't hit somebody in the valley and retreat to higher ground ... so she can't hit much more than Tauroneo can and her stats are shaky (even though 20/3 is pretty good for her). Tauroneo hits harder, more reliable and has the same AS as her. He simply beats her in every stat and you can even have him climb down the ledges to block off enemies. He will not only kill as muchh as Jill but probably contribute as much as she does - not very much but he helps a lot more than Jill does, who basically just throws hand axes around for the purpose of gettong CExp

There are a few things you missed. First, Tauroneo starts off at the very left, where he can't even do very much because that's not where the action is taking place. Also, he doesn't have the same AS as her, he has less. Using your own stats, .55 can go up, and then Jill also has higher experience gain than him. Her flight is great here too, as she can fly around and whack an enemy, then fly back behind your frontlines if needed.

3-13 is a nightmare without Tauroneo although Jill can def. help a lot here too. I'd say Jill is pretty good with Hand axes + Beastfoe or the Brave Axe but again Tauroneo is a lot more valuable than her as he is one of the only units, who can actually block Laguz off without standing above the ledge - he can face them in combat without having issues. Imbue + 21Def + support...that's a huge wall right there - perfect to deal with any Laguz.

This isn't really making him any better than Jill as she can pretty much do the same thing. She'll also have a support built, likely with Volug, so she can dodge on occasion.

Now in pt4 things change...assuming 5 more level ups for Jill from 3-12 and 3-13 (again, this is very generous) and 3 for Tauroneo they'll have the following stats:

Jill 20/8

32.5HP, 18.85Str, 18.85Skl, 24.45Spd, 21.8Lck, 19.55Def, 10.85Res

Tauroneo -/17

39.65HP, 25.2Str, 23.95Skl, 21.5Spd, 18.6Lck, 22.35Def, 16.5Res

You call it generous, I call it sandbagging. With all the high experience gain, I'd say 20/10 is more accurate for her.

It should also be mentioned the possibility of her transferring to the GM's, in which case she'd be nearing promotion by now and her part 4 would absolutely rape Tauroneo's.

For endgame ... it's no comparision...if both got 5 level ups (Laguz give tons of CExp in 4-5 - ignoring the fact that Jill can't even really deal with them)...their stats will be like this:

Jill 20/13

35HP, 21.1Str, 21.1Skl, 25Spd, 24.8Lck, 21.3Def, 13.1Res

Tauroneo -/17/6

47.95HP, 29.4Str, 29.85Skl, 26.5Spd, 26.04Def, 23.5Res

What the hell is this? Jill isn't even at third tier? Seriously, quit sandbagging the girl. 5 level ups for each is not a fair assumption. Jill has higher experience gain + better mobility, so she'll naturally gain much more experience. And part 4 enemies as a whole are like an experience gold mine.

Don't even get me started on Endgame performance. Throughout all of this you didn't even give Jill a support.

[Zkirsche]

Don't even get me started on Endgame performance. Throughout all of this you didn't even give Jill a support.

To be fair, he didn't give Taur a support either.

Besides, the fact that he is that comparable to Jill shows that he shouldn't be that low.

[-Cynthia-]

To be fair, he didn't give Taur a support either.

Besides, the fact that he is that comparable to Jill shows that he shouldn't be that low.

Jill's support is going to be better though, since she's more consistently on the map. Tauroneo can't get one until 3-12, and that would mean a DB member has to go in supportless until then, which is undesirable. Taur really can't build up a support until part 4, and even then it's shaky, because Elincia/Tibarn don't really want to slow down just to keep in range and everyone else is likely taken until 4-E.

[charmander6000]

Is Muarim really > Skrimir?

Doing a quick look Skrimir easily wins during the chapters they have together while also having 4-P where he doubles and ORKO most things. Is Muarim's part 1 that good? He's untransformed for half of 1-7 (though he is still rather bulky) due to lack of olivi grass.

[Zkirsche]

Jill's support is going to be better though, since she's more consistently on the map. Tauroneo can't get one until 3-12, and that would mean a DB member has to go in supportless until then, which is undesirable. Taur really can't build up a support until part 4, and even then it's shaky, because Elincia/Tibarn don't really want to slow down just to keep in range and everyone else is likely taken until 4-E.

True enougth, my point about him being higher than he is now still stands though.

Doing a quick look Skrimir easily wins during the chapters they have together while also having 4-P where he doubles and ORKO most things. Is Muarim's part 1 that good? He's untransformed for half of 1-7 (though he is still rather bulky) due to lack of olivi grass.

Yes, he's essentially god, and he's not too bad when he comes back either. Skrimir suffers the Volke syndrome - he has to take a unit slot to go to Endgame. Without endgame, it's pretty clear that Muarim's part 1 + 4 > Skrimir's part 4 alone.

Edited June 28, 2009 by kirsche

[Yojinbo]

You're really overrating Tauroneo's performance. Of course he's amazing in 1-6, but saying it's unrealistic to beat it without him is seriously pushing it.

No, it's not...read below and you'll see why...hopefully.

And why can't Jill get a Hand Axe and a forge? You talk like that's too much favoritism.

I neither said she can't get one of those weapons nor did I call that favouritism.

Then in a single level up she can double a good amount of 1-6-2 and 1-7 enemies as well.

No, she can't.

With one lvl up she'll have 15.65 Spd ... so she needs opponents with 11AS or lower. In 1-6-1 she can double some Pegasus Knights and Generals + the thunder mage. She lacks offense/defense to deal with any of them ... the only thing she can double without risks are the Pegasi.

In 1-6-2 there's the Knights she can double but since there're 8 or more at once she can't deal with them either.

All the opponents she can double either have to high defense (armors) or hit her too hard (mages). That means she only gets to double lolpriests.

In 1-7 she needs 18 - 19 Spd to double the armors (second slowest units after mages)...which requires her to obtain 4 or 5 levels in 1-6-1 and 1-6-2.

The movement reduction simply brings her down to the level of the rest of your team.

Way to oversimplify things. Jill will be worse than Zihark and Volug for sure. Laura has healing utilits, which is better than mediocre fighting, while Micaiah one rounds the generals with Thani. Nolan with a B-support with Eddie will probably be about as good as Jill and Tormod, Vika and Muarim join the very same chapter as well.

There are at least 6 units, who are better than her and Vika/Nolan are about tied as well. That's pretty bad, especially since Nolan is already not very good after 1-5.

Or I can, you know, use people like Nolan, Aran, Sothe, and Volug to block them off. Hell, even Jill can do it pretty reliably with a Dracoshield or Seraph Robe.

Are you kidding? You earnestly think that Aran an Nolan can deal with 8 Cavaliers, who can all attack at once and many of them from 1~2 range? Volug can't even go there since you need him to protect Fiona.

The only units who have realistic chances to block off the Cavaliers without any issues are Tauroneo and Sothe, as long as Micaiah is in range to support him.

There are a few things you missed. First, Tauroneo starts off at the very left, where he can't even do very much because that's not where the action is taking place.

He can attack down the ledge, kill Pegasus reinforcements etc. He can also actually kill enemies ... no need for any big action to take place...it's not like Jill could actually handle that action.

Her flight is great here too, as she can fly around and whack an enemy, then fly back behind your frontlines if needed.

Which won't kill enemies. She won't gain more CExp as she never kills unless you give her free kills *cough*favouritism*cough*

Weakening things is fine but that doesn't make her better than Tauroneo, who can block off all coming enemies by himself by standing at the ledge.

This isn't really making him any better than Jill as she can pretty much do the same thing.

What? Are you saying that Jill can tank unlimited amounts of enemies? That she can kill stuff all by herself? You said yourself that she needs to hide behind frontliners, which already shows that she doesn't have the durability or offense to deal with her enemies.

She'll also have a support built, likely with Volug, so she can dodge on occasion.

Jill supporting Volug? When did that idea come up? Volug always supports Zihark forever and ever. Amen.

Beating 3-6 without a Zihark x Volug support ... Idk if that's even possible without losing units. And Jill moves completely different than Volug ... from the very start Jill flies over cliffs or water in 1-6 or ledges in 1-E.

Volug x Jill is an impractical support, that favourises Jill, while Volug barely improves ... at least not as much as with Ziahrk. And both Zihark and Volug are a lot more important than Jill.

It should also be mentioned the possibility of her transferring to the GM's, in which case she'd be nearing promotion by now and her part 4 would absolutely rape Tauroneo's.

That's completely absurd. She will be far behind by that point and is abudant in GM chapters. She won't be at 20/10 at that point, no matter how many free kills you give her. Gatrie will be promoted ... Titania, Haar and Ike will be between -/16 and -/19. Oscar and Shinon will be ~ -/15.

Jill will be far behind, outclassed by almost every other unit and more likely to be benched than anything. Taking her to the GMs and deploying her will actually hurt the army more than it helps since Reyson, Haar, Ike, Titania, Gatrie, Oscar, Shinon, Janaff, Ulki, Mordecai, Ranulf and probably Mia are all a lot better than her.

She also won't hit tier3 that way, even if you wanted it to be that way.

What the hell is this? Jill isn't even at third tier?

I suppose if you like to screw her stats by giving her a Maaster Seal/Master Crown she might be tier3 by then...woon't help your case either.

Seriously, quit sandbagging the girl. 5 level ups for each is not a fair assumption. Jill has higher experience gain + better mobility, so she'll naturally gain much more experience.

This would be true if she was actually able to kill things. She can hardly fight however with crap-stats and being horribly underleveled. You basically say that she goes from 14 to 20/20/0 in less than 10 chapters? Be realistic - when you cann't kill stuff and you need to hit with Hand Axes to be safe you won't get that many lvl ups.

And part 4 enemies as a whole are like an experience gold mine.

Too bad she won't kill any of them.

Don't even get me started on Endgame performance.

you should get started with endgame if you want to be taken serious - although I don't even think you care about that.

Throughout all of this you didn't even give Jill a support.

I also didn't give on to Taurneo.

Seriously, debating with you is really frustrating because everything except blatant favouritism is "sandbagging" to you. Jills stats are subpar from the moment she joins and she wont get enough level ups to catch up any time soon. If you think she's a better unit then Tauroneo I'm going to assume that the point of this tier list is to show your personal opinion about characters and not to show the effectivity of a unit.

Edit @ Cynthia

Tauroneo can have a C-support in 3-12.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Yojinbo

[Zkirsche]

I suppose if you like to screw her stats by giving her a Maaster Seal/Master Crown she might be tier3 by then...woon't help your case either.

This would be true if she was actually able to kill things. She can hardly fight however with crap-stats and being horribly underleveled. You basically say that she goes from 14 to 20/20/0 in less than 10 chapters? Be realistic - when you cann't kill stuff and you need to hit with Hand Axes to be safe you won't get that many lvl ups.

There are forges available. And getting teh exact same number of levels as a unit ~20 levels ahead of you is silly in any scenario. Especially when you factor in that Jill has higher mobility and Taur doesn't kill either.

Tauroneo can have a C-support in 3-12.

Name a unit that would want to wait 3-4 chapters just to get a C with someone?

Jill supporting Volug? When did that idea come up? Volug always supports Zihark forever and ever. Amen.

Beating 3-6 without a Zihark x Volug support ... Idk if that's even possible without losing units. And Jill moves completely different than Volug ... from the very start Jill flies over cliffs or water in 1-6 or ledges in 1-E.

Volug x Jill is an impractical support, that favourises Jill, while Volug barely improves ... at least not as much as with Ziahrk. And both Zihark and Volug are a lot more important than Jill

I agree with this. Nolan can easily get Aran or Leo as a support whilst Volug gets Zihark. Volug does benefit more from the earth support.

Edited June 28, 2009 by kirsche

[Florete]

Seriously, debating with you is really frustrating because everything except blatant favouritism is "sandbagging" to you. Jills stats are subpar from the moment she joins and she wont get enough level ups to catch up any time soon. If you think she's a better unit then Tauroneo I'm going to assume that the point of this tier list is to show your personal opinion about characters and not to show the effectivity of a unit.

This is the only thing worth responding to. Tell me, have you played Hard mode? You call it all favoritism, but the only favoritism I ever mentioned was the stat boosters, and that was just as a side note. You seem to think if I give her anything special it's automatically favoritism. That's not how it works. There are resources in this game and we're going to use them to the best of their effect. Seriously, arguments like:

She won't gain more CExp as she never kills unless you give her free kills *cough*favouritism*cough*

are just plain stupid. She'll never get any kills? And you don't call that sandbagging?

Also, VolugxZihark? Why the hell? ZiharkxNolan is how it should go. JillxVolug is good because they match movement and the bonuses (+2 def and +30 avoid) are good for both. Or, if she's being transferred to the GM's, she'll support Zihark so both can go in with an active support and then we'll have NolanxVolug or something on the other side.

You need to realize what's "favoritism" and what is simply best for the team as a whole. Also:

With one lvl up she'll have 15.65 Spd ... so she needs opponents with 11AS or lower.

[Zkirsche]

Any thoughts on Mordy > Boyd, Ragefox?

Also, VolugxZihark? Why the hell? ZiharkxNolan is how it should go. JillxVolug is good because they match movement and the bonuses (+2 def and +30 avoid) are good for both. Or, if she's being transferred to the GM's, she'll support Zihark so both can go in with an active support and then we'll have NolanxVolug or something on the other side.

Actually, only Jill gains from the bonuses. Only the 32 Atk Tigers and the cats are affected by the def boost, but all teh enemies are affected by the avoid boost. Zihark doesn't lose anything in the transition from an earth support to an earth support, and a free Nolan is very useful for Aran.

Edited June 28, 2009 by kirsche

[Florete]

Any thoughts on Mordy > Boyd, Ragefox?

I'll have to get back to you on that. Remind me about it when this other case calms down.

Actually, only Jill gains from the bonuses. Only the 32 Atk Tigers and the cats are affected by the def boost, but all teh enemies are affected by the avoid boost. Zihark doesn't lose anything in the transition from an earth support to an earth support, and a free Nolan is very useful for Aran.

Volug will respect the Defense in the long run, and +30 avoid is plenty for him in part 3 and part 4 as it is. Aran's avoid with an Earth support will go from non-existant to almost non-existant. (Even with an A at 3-6 I think he still faces 70+) Aran also isn't avoid reliant as he is, he's Defense reliant. He'd prefer someone who gives Defense, like Leonardo, Jill, or Edward (in that order).

Also, Nolan would probably prefer 15 avoid to 2 defense.

[dondon151]

Some ridiculous claims here.

With one lvl up she'll have 15.65 Spd ... so she needs opponents with 11AS or lower. In 1-6-1 she can double some Pegasus Knights and Generals + the thunder mage. She lacks offense/defense to deal with any of them ... the only thing she can double without risks are the Pegasi.

Learn your probability. After 1 level up, Jill will have a 65% chance to double 12 AS enemies and a 35% chance to double 11 AS enemies. You can't just round down. That's not how it works.

I'm seriously tired of people taking the simple way out with numbers just to sandbag or elevate a character.

In 1-6-2 there's the Knights she can double but since there're 8 or more at once she can't deal with them either.

All the opponents she can double either have to high defense (armors) or hit her too hard (mages). That means she only gets to double lolpriests.

There are a maximum of 4 at once and no one except Tauroneo or Volug can take them. However, Tauroneo isn't actually of paramount importance in this chapter (countering yet another ridiculous claim of yours). He's the best way to fend off enemies coming from the west, but Jill and Volug really help you get this chapter done faster in addition to rescuing the most NPC units.

I'll say again, as you seem to make this mistake often. 4 cavaliers. Not 8.

Way to oversimplify things. Jill will be worse than Zihark and Volug for sure. Laura has healing utilits, which is better than mediocre fighting, while Micaiah one rounds the generals with Thani. Nolan with a B-support with Eddie will probably be about as good as Jill and Tormod, Vika and Muarim join the very same chapter as well.

Unlike the units you just listed (minus Vika), Jill doesn't occupy a space while attacking because of canto, which is good because the non broken units can't ORKO. Even Volug can't ORKO consistently without S strike.

What? Are you saying that Jill can tank unlimited amounts of enemies? That she can kill stuff all by herself? You said yourself that she needs to hide behind frontliners, which already shows that she doesn't have the durability or offense to deal with her enemies.

No, this is merely a form of Jill's utility. Her durability is passable, so she can frontline as well.

Jill supporting Volug? When did that idea come up? Volug always supports Zihark forever and ever. Amen.

No he doesn't.

Beating 3-6 without a Zihark x Volug support ... Idk if that's even possible without losing units. And Jill moves completely different than Volug ... from the very start Jill flies over cliffs or water in 1-6 or ledges in 1-E.

Being one who easily cleared 3-6 without ZiharkxVolug, I vehemently object to this outrageous claim. Also, Jill can't fly over ledges in 1-E (only gaps without losing movement) and would prefer not to stray too far from Volug in 1-6-2 since no one can solo the map.

Jill will be far behind, outclassed by almost every other unit and more likely to be benched than anything. Taking her to the GMs and deploying her will actually hurt the army more than it helps since Reyson, Haar, Ike, Titania, Gatrie, Oscar, Shinon, Janaff, Ulki, Mordecai, Ranulf and probably Mia are all a lot better than her.

Opportunity cost of deployment is too dumb to take into consideration, but assuming that the player sends Jill to the GMs, that kind of means that the player will deploy her with the GMs, since this is a player-based choice, not automatic.

Tauroneo can have a C-support in 3-12.

And no supporter in range for at least 3 turns. Hmm...

Tauroneo's performance in 1-6 is good, but it's about as important as Jill's performance in clearing both maps. Tauroneo probably deals with the armor reinforcements in 1-6-1 while Jill deals with PK reinforcements, and in 1-6-2 Tauroneo holds off knights while Jill pushes forward to clear the chapter. Then, Jill has 1-8, 1-E, and 3-6, where just existing is better than Tauroneo being absent, as Jill has a chance to contribute and also isn't doing especially poorly on the defensive side (regarding 3-6)

Tauroneo does better in 3-12 and 3-13, though he stops doubling so he isn't doing that much better. Part 4, Jill has arguably the best movement type as opposed to Tauroneo having the worst movement type. Jill does well on any route; Tauroneo is locked to one where his move is eternally crippled by thickets and swamp.

Edited June 28, 2009 by dondon151

[Zkirsche]

Volug will respect the Defense in the long run, and +30 avoid is plenty for him in part 3 and part 4 as it is. Aran's avoid with an Earth support will go from non-existant to almost non-existant. (Even with an A at 3-6 I think he still faces 70+) Aran also isn't avoid reliant as he is, he's Defense reliant. He'd prefer someone who gives Defense, like Leonardo, Jill, or Edward (in that order).

Also, Nolan would probably prefer 15 avoid to 2 defense.

Is it? is my reply to all of your statements:

1) Volug likes 45 avoid. A level 15 Volug with 'A' Jill has 69 Avo, with 'A' Zihark that's 84 avo. Now, take the most common enemy on the map:

Tiger lvl 16: Atk 39, Hit 137

That Tiger 3RKO's Volug no matter what you do. With 'A' Jill, the chance that it hits all three of it's attacks with the Jill support is 50.8934%, with the Volug support that drops down to 17.8358%. That's a ~33% increase. In 4 rounds with 'A' Jill, thsi increases to an ~81.67% chance to die. With the Zihark support this is a mere ~40.22% chance to die in 4 rounds - almost half of what it was with the Jill support

When you factor in thickets, Volug faces hit rates below 50 wit hteh Zihark support, so the lead becomes even more pronounced.

2) You're underestimating Aran's avo a little. Say Aran is level 18/1 for 3-6 and we gave him a speedwing, not absurd since he does quite well with them. He has 74 avo with the Nolan support. That's bad alright. But if we give him, say, Laura, he has 59 avo. That means he goes from having a 53.275% chance of dying in 2 rounds to an 81.974% chance of be killed in 2 rounds. Even less without an avoid support. (This is against the 39 Atk tigers again). At least it becomes somewhat decent in thickets with the earth support.

3) A 20/1 Nolan with Tarvos has 19 Def without the Aran support, 21 Def with it. Those most common enemies go from 2RKOing Nolan to 3RKOing Nolan. Yes, he has more avoid, but let's see how much that affects him. With the Earth support, has has a chance of dying after 2 rounds, with teh Aran support he doesn't. IN 3 rounds these are his chances of dying:

20/1 Nolan with 'A' Aran: 0 + 25.54435% = 25.54435%

20/1 Nolan with 'A' Zihark: 12.7449% + 16.3899% = 29.1348%

Aran support wins.

no one can solo the map

Taur practically can, all you need is 2-3 units to clear out the ballistae archer and help out Fiona's knights.

Edited June 28, 2009 by kirsche

[Vykan12]

I don't necessarily agree with Yojinbo's reasoning, though Tauroneo should be > Marcia and Tanith. In the latter case, we're basically comparing 3-11 pothole and desert utility to h4xing 1-6 and being one of the more durable units in part 3 (all of which are glorified defence maps).

[Zkirsche]

I don't necessarily agree with Yojinbo's reasoning, though Tauroneo should be > Marcia and Tanith. In the latter case, we're basically comparing 3-11 pothole and desert utility to h4xing 1-6 and being one of the more durable units in part 3 (all of which are glorified defence maps).

He's also pretty durable in part 4, especially with Imbue, like Yojinbo pointed out. Plus, since every low levelled unit goes to 4-2, his durabiltiy helps him protect the otehrs in the form of provoke.

I can see Taur being upper mid.

[grandjackal]

I do not object to Geoff>Keiran>Volke>Lucia, granted they're all in mid above Rolf. Speaking of Rolf, can't he head down to lower mid, just topping it? I mean...He just doesn't seem to be mid material.

I also don't suppose Taur's gonna be getting any help from Lucia's affinity, despite they're forced on the same route...

Edited June 28, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Florete]

Is it? is my reply to all of your statements:

Yes. is my immediate reply.

1) Volug likes 45 avoid. A level 15 Volug with 'A' Jill has 69 Avo, with 'A' Zihark that's 84 avo. Now, take the most common enemy on the map:

Where are you getting those numbers? Unsupported Volug at base has 65 avoid. An 'A' with Jill raises that to 95. In fact, I pretty much covered Volug's 3-6 performance in my debate with Mekkah. I'll post it all and bold the important parts.

Part 3 rolls around. Looking at 3-6, Volug has probably acquired S Strike by now. This is slightly less than 6 rounds, doubling, per chapter. He doesn't double everything, but a lot of that can be made up in 1-6-1 and 1-6-2 where he has a lot of Armors/Cavs he can tank for quicker strike experience, as well as general tanking ability throughout the part, so S Strike is easily acquirable.

It's not too likely for him to have gained a level, but he can have ~60-70 experience for whatever it's worth. His stats, however, are now totally awesome, as well as having a full support with Earth (Nolan/Zihark), Dark(Micaiah), or Thunder(Jill/Aran).

Volug. lv 15, S Strike, A Earth/Dark/Thunder.

HP: 49

Atk: 36, 38 w/Dark

AS: 26

hit: 151

Avo: 65 alone, 95 w/Thunder/Dark, 110 w/Earth

Def: 18, 20/Thunder

Res: Doesn't matter until part 4 anyway.

The weakest enemies, some low level Cats, 13-round a non-Thunder supported Volug (25 w/Thunder). Some low level Tigers 4 round him no Thunder, 5 w/Thunder. The strongest, 39/41 MT Tigers, 3 round him. And as long as Volug has a full support with a Dark/Thunder partner, he'll see hit chances of ~47 displayed, 32 with an Earth support (~21 true). This sounds nice, but how is everyone else?

Last time I looked at Sothe, so I'll check him out again. I'll assume he's kept his support with Micaiah for the sake of this argument.

Sothe. lv 6, Beastkiller, A Micaiah

HP: 36.5

Atk: 50 (for this map's laguz)

AS: 22

hit: 139

Avo: 77

Def: 15

Res: Doesn't matter until part 4 anyway.

Volug creams him all across the board except in damage output. What 13 rounds Volug 6 rounds Sothe. What 4 rounds Volug 3 rounds Sothe (leaving him with minimal HP as well, so anything else can kill him immediately), and what 3 rounds Volug 2 rounds Sothe. All the while Sothe sees ~65% displayed hit. So Volug murders him defensively.

Let's check out Zihark now. A level 5 Zihark is 4 rounded by what 13 rounds Volug, 2 rounded by what 4 rounds Volug, and near OHKO'd by what 3 rounds Volug. With a full Earth support, he sees ~37% displayed hit, so Volug is beating Zihark defensively even more than Sothe.

How about Nolan? A level 20/2 Nolan is 5 rounded by what 13 rounds Volug, 3 rounded by what 4 rounds Volug (left with minimal HP, however), and 2 rounded by what 3 rounds Volug, all the while facing ~57% displayed with a full earth support. It can also be noted that the 22 AS cats may very well be able to double him and thus 2 round him while those same Cats 5 round Volug. Another substantial defensive lead.

Lastly, Aran, the only other one who may stand a chance defensively. A 20/1 Aran is 3 rounded by 27 Atk cats that 6 round Volug since they double Aran, 2 rounded by 31 Atk Cats that 4 round Volug, 3 rounded by Tigers that 4 round Volug, and 2 rounded by 39/41 atk Tigers that 3 round Volug. It can also be noted that since his Speed is so slow, if he's just slightly screwed in it, those 41 atk Tigers can double and ORKO Aran. Oh, and his avoid is so horrid it isn't even worth mentioning. Another defensive lead for Volug.

(Coming back after I've gone through a lot past this) I just realized I forgot Jill. Well, she's not much different than the others. What 13 rounds Volug 6 rounds Jill, what 4 rounds him 2 rounds her, etc.

Offensively now. Well, Volug doubles everything, which is more than anyone else can say (even Zihark can't double the 22 AS Cats). Anyway, he ORKO's any Cats except the 43HP/16 Def ones that he can OR with a Dark (Micaiah) support. He two rounds all the Tigers on the map without exception. The only competition he's really got is Sothe with the Beastkiller, but Sothe can only do that on the Player Phase since he risks his life with it equipped on the enemy phase, and anyone who has Beastfoe (Nolan/Leo especially), but Volug can equip Beastfoe himself anyway.

So Volug wins defensively and offensively. Combine that with high move and more skill capacity than anyone and he's easily the best character in this chapter. This stays the same in 3-12 and 3-13, where he's only gotten better.

Point being: As long as Volug is supported, he isn't dying. The good thing about his offense is that even if a Tiger hits him on enemy phase, he'll kill the guy on his own phase without counter. Add in our two healers and dodging and he's good to go.

2) You're underestimating Aran's avo a little. Say Aran is level 18/1 for 3-6 and we gave him a speedwing, not absurd since he does quite well with them. He has 74 avo with the Nolan support. That's bad alright. But if we give him, say, Laura, he has 59 avo. That means he goes from having a 53.275% chance of dying in 2 rounds to an 81.974% chance of be killed in 2 rounds. Even less without an avoid support. (This is against the 39 Atk tigers again). At least it becomes somewhat decent in thickets with the earth support.

That's still not reliable. Instead of giving him a Speedwing for some negligible avoid, you could've given him a Seraph Robe to turn almost all (maybe even all) of the 2 rounds into 3 rounds, a much better boost for him with a less sought after stat booster.

3) A 20/1 Nolan with Tarvos has 19 Def without the Aran support, 21 Def with it. Those most common enemies go from 2RKOing Nolan to 3RKOing Nolan. Yes, he has more avoid, but let's see how much that affects him. With the Earth support, has has a chance of dying after 2 rounds, with teh Aran support he doesn't. IN 3 rounds these are his chances of dying:

20/1 Nolan with 'A' Aran: 0 + 25.54435% = 25.54435%

20/1 Nolan with 'A' Zihark: 12.7449% + 16.3899% = 29.1348%

Aran support wins.

But see, this is also on one map and against only one type of enemy. In practically any other scenario (including every other enemy on this map), Nolan will be wanting the avoid, especially in part 4 where it can make him near invincible.

Plus, Zihark wants Nolan more than Volug because they share movement.

Hold on a moment. I just checked, and 20/1 Nolan w/Tarvos has 18 Defense, not 19. He's getting 2 rounded by 39 atk Tigers regardless.

In other news, I lowered Rolf to Lower Mid. He was there before the time warp.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Rage Fox

[grandjackal]

That, and what's the point of sticking Nolan with Aran, when no way in hell Aran's gonna be used the whole game? He'd rather a steady bonus throughout the game.

[Zkirsche]

I concede, not that the argument had much point in the first place.

Any thoughts on Taur > Marcia or Tanith though? I thought Vykan did a good job explaining why he's better than her.

[Florete]

That's interesting. I recall it being agreed that Brom > Tauroneo at least, and he's currently under Tanith as well. I could possibly see both rising above her, but I'll need more convincing before they rise above Marcia.

[grandjackal]

I'll do that for you with one statement.

When the hell does Tanith get actual combat going? Her speed is quite under par, and she's not getting to doubling speed any time soon, thanks to high starting level and a pretty bad growth in said area.

Neither have to deal with bow weakness, or even worse the Crossbow insta-blick.

Brom's use is immediately good, and helpful in part 2 while keeping him useful part 3. Tauroneo is pretty damn godly pre-part 4 and is passable part 4.

Tanith on the other hand seems sub-par forever, just she can fly and has better move.

As for Brom vs Taur? Yeah, I'm not gonna get into that.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Zkirsche]

That's interesting. I recall it being agreed that Brom > Tauroneo at least, and he's currently under Tanith as well. I could possibly see both rising above her, but I'll need more convincing before they rise above Marcia.

Anyone care to explain the reasoning behind Brom > Taur? Taur is goldy in 1-6 and pretty damn good in parts 3 and 4 too. Brom is good in part 2 and mediocre in parts 3 and 4.

[Progenitus]

I'd definitely put Tauroneo above Marcia.

Tauroneo godmodes 1-6, which is long enough to be considered as two chapters, and is still decent in 3-12 and 3-13.

Marcia is not as useful in CRK chapters as Tauroneo is in DB chapters, and she's not really better than him in part 4 to make up for it.

[grandjackal]

I'd definitely put Tauroneo above Marcia.

Tauroneo godmodes 1-6, which is long enough to be considered as two chapters, and is still decent in 3-12 and 3-13.

Marcia is not as useful in CRK chapters as Tauroneo is in DB chapters, and she's not really better than him in part 4 to make up for it.

Another thing to note is Taur is actual semi-useful part 4 before endgame still. He's still tough to take down (now with Imbue goodness), and (if I got this right), is at least better than Keiran and Geoff part 4 (He's probably got Keiran's speed, but has 20% better speed growth, plus most likely 3rd tier thus Luna use). He's not great, but he's passable, and forced there regardless.

At least he only needs to be level 9 to be doubling auras with Nasir's help. Not a shining aspect, but at least he's not garbage throughout all of endgame. Doesn't sound too unreasonable...I think.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf