OMG it's a tier list

[Vykan12]

I don't see how Brom is beating Tauroneo either. He's obviously impressive in 2-1, but then average for the rest of part 2 (Lucia + 3 laguz join in 2-2, Haar + Elincia join in 2-E). Now let's look at his part 3 potential:

Brom lv --/6/0: 38 hp, 20 str, 17 AS, 23 def, 9 res, 64 avo

steel poleax: 34 atk

First off, that AS is just pitiful. In 3-2, he's only getting doubled by SMs, but later even halbs, warriors and snipers may be able to pull it off. There's a good chance his 30% spd growth will actually have him become slower relative to the enemies, particularly in part 4. Second, his atk is also pretty crappy. He 4 rounds paladins and 3 rounds pretty much anything else, which is easily sub-par (most GMs 2 round).

The only redeeming aspect about Brom is his ability to soak up hits, but even that becomes questionable when some of the higher atk enemies begin doubling him. A 3-8 warrior has 39 atk, so that's already 84% damage he's taking in one round. Granted, he'll have more hp/def by then, but the result is nonetheless poor.

Oh, and his water affinity. Is a low move, offensively poor, defensively average character in an army with competitive slots beating Tauroneo for that???

[-Cynthia-]

I don't think Level 6 Brom is a very fair level estimation for 3-8, you've given him only 5 levels for 8 chapters, which is rather low IMO, if he's 7 or above Warriors/Halbs no longer double. Brom is only really doubled by SM's who barely hurt him anyway, his durability is quite good all in all.

Still though, I can't defend Brom's offense, it's pretty atrocious. He is above average in 2-1, then falls to average and below the rest of the game, which is pretty bad, worse than Tauroneo and probably Marcia as well.

Edited June 28, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

I put him at level 6 in 3-2.

[grandjackal]

I wanna say Volug should be top tier...But do I have the balls? Hmm...

[-Cynthia-]

I wanna say Volug should be top tier...But do I have the balls? Hmm...

I find changes that simply move characters between tiers rather difficult, since there's nothing to really compare Volug to. I guess you could compare Volug to Haar, and if they're at least close enough move Volug up. It's a comparison that involves all 4 Parts though, so it's probably going to be ugly.

Edited June 28, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Florete]

I wanna say Volug should be top tier...But do I have the balls? Hmm...

I want to agree with you. Do you have the balls?

And Tauroneo moves past Brom and Tanith.

[Vykan12]

Volug can ORKO most enemies in part 4 with a decent level + SS strike. The question is whether Volug can get 75 DAs in 8 chapters (9.375 per chapter), though it's pretty likely with his active involvement in part 3.

I'm fully in support with Volug in top.

And Tauroneo moves past Brom and Tanith.

You're making changes now?

Please take Oliver and Gareth out of bottom tier. Also, Pelleas down a bit, at least below Ena. I can dig up the arguments for that if needed.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Vykan12

[Florete]

Volug can ORKO most enemies in part 4 with a decent level + SS strike. The question is whether Volug can get 75 DAs in 8 chapters (9.375 per chapter), though it's pretty likely with his active involvement in part 3.

I'm fully in support with Volug in top.

I've actually gotten Volug to SS Strike in 3-13 with a little 1-E abuse (Rescue + Priest), so having it by part 4 shouldn't be too far off. If he doesn't have it right away, it shouldn't take very long for him to get it.

Also, he can fight a lot in part 1. There are a lot of times where he doesn't kill enemies, but he still gains pitiful experience, so it's good to have him weaken and have a first tier unit kill. This way he gains everything he wants while giving someone else a kill until he reaches S Strike, at which point he'll likely kill more often.

Please take Oliver and Gareth out of bottom tier. Also, Pelleas down a bit, at least below Ena. I can dig up the arguments for that if needed.

I'm making changes when the arguments are convincing enough. I can probably move Gareth out of bottom due to Pure Water, and maybe Pelleas down a bit, but I can't see Oliver being any better than Bottom.

Also, before I move Pelleas, what's the idea on him vs. Lethe and Kyza?

Edited June 28, 2009 by Rage Fox

[grandjackal]

I think my comparison to Haar with Volug, is that Volug is utility to the DB as a god modder, as Haar is utility in the perfect situation for a flying tank that is Haar's part 3.

DB Need a god, GM need a flier who doesn't get his ass kicked or untransforms half the time.

Difference is that Volug retains his awesomeness throughout the game, while Haar sort of peters out part 4.

Volug has the best affinity one could ask for, Haar doesn't even need a support anyways.

However, I'd say that compares, not that Volug is better than a flying invincible ranged attacking god machine.

As for Oliver? High magic, staff rank, available Nosferatu use (practically the only light magician who can make use of it at this point of the game). He's quite durable for a mage. I'd say his only real problem is he doesn't double. What's his affinity anyways?

But either way, I agree with Vykan that Gareth is too useful no matter how easily he dies without pure water (but shows how easily the problem can be solved, especially with Kurth around), and Oliver is too versatile for bottom.

Also the idea behind Pelleas vs Kyza+Lyre

-Kyza's average part 3, so he's any right to hang around.

-Lethe's got good use in part 2, so it's a nice spike for her.

-You essentially have to train up Pelleas to do what any other mage on your team should be capable of doing at this point.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Florete]

As for Oliver? High magic, staff rank, available Nosferatu use (practically the only light magician who can make use of it at this point of the game). He's quite durable for a mage. I'd say his only real problem is he doesn't double. What's his affinity anyways?

He's actually not durable at all. 20 Speed is getting him doubled by Generals. He can be one rounded by some enemies. His offense blows (I think the best he does is 3 round) and Nosferatu equipped means he either isn't healing, which he should be, or you have someone back there trading with him. It also means Micaiah didn't get it.

Fact is, pretty much anyone that can weild a staff can do the job better than Oliver since they'll have some semblance of offense and/or defense. The only thing Oliver can do is use Fortify, but Micaiah can use it just as well or better. Or, if I can't get that to Micaiah for some strange reason, even Laura and Rhys can do it better than Oliver. Healing is nice, but when 7 others are better at it than you are and it's not even that special to have anymore, you lose the value almost entirely.

Also the idea behind Pelleas vs Kyza+Lyre

-Kyza's average part 3, so he's any right to hang around.

-Lethe's got good use in part 2, so it's a nice spike for her.

Both are pretty awful part 3. I don't remember the exact scenario, but I do believe "average" is overrating it.

[grandjackal]

He's actually not durable at all. 20 Speed is getting him doubled by Generals. He can be one rounded by some enemies. His offense blows (I think the best he does is 3 round) and Nosferatu equipped means he either isn't healing, which he should be, or you have someone back there trading with him. It also means Micaiah didn't get it.

Thus why we have Nosferatu, as he doesn't get OHKOd.

As for offense, staffs and trading, his main use is staffs, which would leave someone like Elincia free to do more combat for levels she needs. If he is accidentally put in danger, someone is free to trade him out after he's done his business. I'm POSITIVE Sothe has nothing better to do.

Also, lolMichaiah with Nosferatu. If ANYONE'S getting OHKOd endgame...To put Nosferatu to good use, you have to not die in one strike.

Fact is, pretty much anyone that can weild a staff can do the job better than Oliver since they'll have some semblance of offense and/or defense. The only thing Oliver can do is use Fortify, but Micaiah can use it just as well or better. Or, if I can't get that to Micaiah for some strange reason, even Laura and Rhys can do it better than Oliver. Healing is nice, but when 7 others are better at it than you are and it's not even that special to have anymore, you lose the value almost entirely.

If they got some semblence of offense, they got better things to do. Oliver helping out frees them up to do that more. If they're better defensively....uhhh...If you mean the archsages, I highly doubt any of them will have the staff rank he does, Rhys blows as well and you had to train his ass, and Mist's offense is so terrible that Oliver might as well be brought rather than her, as you don't have to train Oliver to get someone of his calibur.

Both are pretty awful part 3. I don't remember the exact scenario, but I do believe "average" is overrating it.

I believe Kyza's forced a couple chapters regardless. You also don't have to play Lethe part 3.

[Vykan12]

I'm making changes when the arguments are convincing enough.

You hadn't made changes in about a week before today, so it must take a lot to convince you. I don't want all the arguing done in between then to have gone to waste.

I thought I made a good case earlier that Oliver was the best raw healer available in 4-E, and Narga agreed with me that he should be > Pelleas if Oliver isn't being regarded as a negative in his chapters.

[Narga_Rocks]

You hadn't made changes in about a week before today, so it must take a lot to convince you. I don't want all the arguing done in between then to have gone to waste.

I thought I made a good case earlier that Oliver was the best raw healer available in 4-E, and Narga agreed with me that he should be > Pelleas if Oliver isn't being regarded as a negative in his chapters.

Yeah, I do agree that Oliver > Pelleas if Oliver isn't being regarded as a negative. I think there can be better healers, but admit Laura takes a lot of work and Rhys isn't much better at surviving than Oliver anyway. And if I'm bringing a staff user that uses swords and has not so great magic to endgame, it ain't Mist. (Elincia, and if she is high enough level to be brought to endgame she isn't healing as much because she can ORKO everything but reds and deg and seph and ashera).

But, the fun part is that you agreed that if we are leaving Pelleas > Oliver anyway, then Sanaki > Oliver. As such, it seems a change should be made either way.

I like how everyone ignored my post about Marcia way back. I know it was extremely long, but c'mon. Anyway, I still say she is the best wishblade user in endgame if you can get her to the right level. It takes paragon in like one chapter + 3-9, almost everyone going to endgame should get paragon in one chapter (3-9 really doesn't count for reasons others have gone through countless times). Ike and Mia don't need it, and I don't think Shinon needs it. The others do, but you have 3 paragons in part 4, meaning 6 people can use it pre endgame there, and 4 can use it on the gm's in 3-11 and 3-E, and 3 can use the paragon in the DB's in part 3. That is possibly 13 different chapters worth of paragon that should ALL go to endgame people, or you are doing it wrong. And if no one in the DB's is going to endgame, guess what, Ilyana brings it to the GM's and now you have 10-3=7 more part 3 chapters, for a total of 20 part 3 and 4 pre endgame chapters. I don't see how giving paragon to someone for one chapter should count as favouritism.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

Thus why we have Nosferatu, as he doesn't get OHKOd.

All it takes is two enemies.

As for offense, staffs and trading, his main use is staffs, which would leave someone like Elincia free to do more combat for levels she needs. If he is accidentally put in danger, someone is free to trade him out after he's done his business. I'm POSITIVE Sothe has nothing better to do.

Or, instead of Oliver, I could've had another combat unit that can fight as well as Elincia, so if Elincia needs to heal someone else can kill that enemy she would've killed and I have better characters on the field as well. Oliver "freeing her up" isn't as valuable as you make it sound.

Also, lolMichaiah with Nosferatu. If ANYONE'S getting OHKOd endgame...To put Nosferatu to good use, you have to not die in one strike.

Only she's, you know, not dying in one strike. Some enemies might come close, but she definitely isn't ORKOd. She also has Thani so she can actually deal damage to enemies if no one needs healing and depending on her support partner might have good avoid.

If they got some semblence of offense, they got better things to do. Oliver helping out frees them up to do that more. If they're better defensively....uhhh...If you mean the archsages, I highly doubt any of them will have the staff rank he does, Rhys blows as well and you had to train his ass, and Mist's offense is so terrible that Oliver might as well be brought rather than her, as you don't have to train Oliver to get someone of his calibur.

If they got some semblance of offense, they're coming before Oliver. That's the point. We aren't bringing four healers to endgame. Archsages can get to A in staves, which means all they lack is Fortify, Matrona, and Ashera Staff. Only Fortify is likely to ever be needed, and Micaiah can use it.

Rhys doesn't blow, he just isn't as good as Mist. If he was trained, he's > Oliver at this point. Same for Mist, since she's on a horse and she at least has existing offense against magic enemies.

And any other staff user also has an existing support.

I believe Kyza's forced a couple chapters regardless. You also don't have to play Lethe part 3.

He's not.

You hadn't made changes in about a week before today, so it must take a lot to convince you. I don't want all the arguing done in between then to have gone to waste.

I thought I made a good case earlier that Oliver was the best raw healer available in 4-E, and Narga agreed with me that he should be > Pelleas if Oliver isn't being regarded as a negative in his chapters.

I had actually. I'd moved Pelleas down, I uh...did some other stuff I don't remember. It probably does take a lot to convince me, but that's just because I want to be sure about a change before it's made.

You made a case for Oliver and I went against it. I don't remember where it ended up. Personally, I would consider Oliver a negative in 4-E for reasons I've previously outlined.

[Vykan12]

For someone to be in bottom, they should basically have no redeemable features whatsoever. Putting Oliver in the company of Fiona, Astrid, Lyre and Meg doesn't really add up when he's so competitive with your other healing options in 4-E. The same applies to Gareth, who can give +10 hit and +5-10 damage per attack on an aura, doesn't take up a unit slot (you only need to drop one of Sanaki/Sothe) and can 1HKO spirits whenever he hits them. His survival issues hurt his flexibility a bit since he'll need to use spirit water and/or stand on a res tile, but it's still very prevalent nonetheless.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Vykan12

[-Cynthia-]

I would say Sanaki isn't completely useless either, she can at least use long rang tomes, and hits hard enough to have some vague form of usefulness on 4-P/4-3.

[Florete]

For someone to be in bottom, they should basically have no redeemable features whatsoever. Putting Oliver in the company of Fiona, Astrid, Lyre and Meg doesn't really add up when he's so competitive with your other healing options in 4-E. The same applies to Gareth, who can give +10 hit and +5-10 damage per attack on an aura, doesn't take up a unit slot (you only need to drop one of Sanaki/Sothe) and can 1HKO spirits whenever he hits them. His survival issues hurt his flexibility a bit since he'll need to use spirit water and/or stand on a res tile, but it's still very prevalent nonetheless.

I'll move Gareth out of there.

The problem I have with Oliver is that he's such a pointless unit. I can take virtually any other person that can use a staff and that character will be better. I'll go through each one (though I probably don't need to):

Micaiah - Hell, she's forced. She also has better offense via Thani.

Elincia - Better offense, mobility, and durability.

Mist - Better offense against mages, mobility, durability.

Laura - It's hard to predict her level, but she should be around Micaiah's area without being forced or having Thani.

Rhys - Somewhat better offense (even if it's bad), durability

Calill - Offense and durability

Soren - Offense and durability

Ilyana - Same

Bastian - Same

Pelleas - Depending on how high he is, same as above again

Tormod - The only one Oliver is definitely better than for Endgame.

They'll also have support partners.

Why should I use Oliver when so many can do it better and staff utility isn't even that valuable anymore due to units in general being h4x? If Oliver had some form of offense or defense, I'd probably consider him a bit better, but he doesn't. I don't see how he can even be considered a good candidate for Endgame.

As for other bottom tiers, I'm not saying they're better, but I can give them some form of use. Fiona can just glue herself to someone for good support, maybe Rescue. Astrid can take potshots with a Killer Bow and possibly be abused to a good point for Endgame via Blossom/BEXP/etc. Sanaki can make powerful potshots from behind enemy lines. Stuff like that.

[grandjackal]

FE6 Karel is more or less a pointless unit, but he's there and he's perfectly usable. Might not be the best, but the point he's still usable. Last I checked, Karel was in low. Oliver's use in healing would be far more valuable than having another fighter, so I'd imagine him that gives Oliver quite a bit more leverage.

[Florete]

FE6 Karel is more or less a pointless unit, but he's there and he's perfectly usable. Might not be the best, but the point he's still usable. Last I checked, Karel was in low. Oliver's use in healing would be far more valuable than having another fighter, so I'd imagine him that gives Oliver quite a bit more leverage.

I thought FE6 Karel was considered Bottom? Or at least the lowest tier there is. And I'd consider a viable fighter better than Oliver, which is why you should just take Elincia. If you need the staff, she's got it. If you need her to fight, she's got it. And if you want her to primarily be a fighter for some reason, you should've been using either Rhys or Mist throughout part 3 anyway.

[grandjackal]

I thought FE6 Karel was considered Bottom? Or at least the lowest tier there is. And I'd consider a viable fighter better than Oliver, which is why you should just take Elincia. If you need the staff, she's got it. If you need her to fight, she's got it. And if you want her to primarily be a fighter for some reason, you should've been using either Rhys or Mist throughout part 3 anyway.

For ranked maybe. Efficiency? Not at all. Perfectly viable endgame unit.

Same goes for Oliver. Really, to put it simply you're just training Pelleas to do what he's already capable of doing. They should switch places.

[Vykan12]

The problem I have with Oliver is that he's such a pointless unit. I can take virtually any other person that can use a staff and that character will be better. I'll go through each one (though I probably don't need to)

Most of those units are so bad offensively that they shouldn’t be attacking in the first place. Mobility and durability don’t matter much in terms of healing since physic staves offset that.

Why should I use Oliver when so many can do it better and staff utility isn't even that valuable anymore due to units in general being h4x?

He comes for free. Everyone you mentioned aside from Bastian needs to be raised, and most of them need paragon/some other form of favoritism to match his base mag. Basically, using Oliver could save us from using a subpar unit like Ilyana or Rhys while getting the same core benefits those units would offer in the final chapter.

Astrid can take potshots with a Killer Bow and possibly be abused to a good point for [Endgame via Blossom/BEXP/etc.

Haha what? Using blossom on hard mode is suicide.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Vykan12

[Florete]

Most of those units are so bad offensively that they shouldn’t be attacking in the first place. Mobility and durability don’t matter much in terms of healing since physic staves offset that.

Maybe, but Elincia, Calill (w/Rexflame), and possibly Mist against Magic enemies have something they can at least do when a heal isn't needed. I'm nto saying they're h4x fighters (except Elincia, she rocks), but they're better in combat than Oliver. Yes, Physic exists, but I'd rather have someone who can do other stuff as well as use those than one who can only do that else he risks dying.

He comes for free. Everyone you mentioned aside from Bastian needs to be raised, and most of them need paragon/some other form of favoritism to match his base mag. Basically, using Oliver could save us from using a subpar unit like Ilyana or Rhys while getting the same core benefits those units would offer in the final chapter.

Elincia doesn't require a lot of training, it's likely that either Rhys or Mist was used during part 3 for basic healing needs, so one of them should be at a respectable level, and if we just happened to use one of the Archsages, Calill, Soren, and Ilyana will all likely be better than Oliver for Endgame.

You keep hyping his higher magic, but it's completely worthless. Micaiah will have the same as him right off the bat but gain more, so she'll be even better for Fortify. Then we have Recover and Mend staves as well up to 3 Spirit Dusts that will most definitely have gone to or will go to whoever needs the extra Magic. Hey, we also have Concoctions, Elixirs, our Herons Blessing, anything else? Do I need anything else?

Haha what? Using blossom on hard mode is suicide.

I did it, and I'm still here. Astrid turned out pretty awesome. It required a lot of babying for sure, but it was worth it IMO. After all, this is Bottom tier.

[dondon151]

Ugh, I am so late to all of the arguments, but I want to say a few things anyway.

Imbue does not magically make a unit more durable. It changes, for example, a 3RKO to a 3RKO. The only thing Imbue does is to lessen demand for healing from either a staff user or an item.

Volug to top tier sounds plausible. In my playthrough I had him at S strike about halfway through 1-E, so 1-E to 3-6 are good estimates of when he gets S strike. For S to SS, he needs 40 more rounds of combat. He can probably get about half of that in 3-6 alone (somewhere around 10 turns of 2 attacks per turn), and then 3-12 and 3-13 are also defend maps, so 3-13 to 4-P/1/2 are good estimations for SS strike.

Offensively, Volug never has doubling trouble. At level 22, he has 31.6 speed transformed on average, which is where he should be at the beginning of part 4. This should double all but SMs. 44.6 atk is pretty awesome, comparable to base Janaff with S strike, who sits at 45 atk.

Defensively, Volug relies a lot on his affinity, as being stuck at 20-22 defense by endgame kind of sucks. The physical enemies with the highest hit from 4-P have around 35 displayed (24.85 true) on Volug with A Jill, but those guys 6RKO him. The strongest enemies borderline 3RKO at 17 displayed (5.95 true). In either case, Volug's chances of death are incredibly small.

As for 4-E itself, he's kind of losing there, as pretty much everyone can surpass his atk with SS rank weapons or forged silvers and they'll have way superior concrete durability, though this has to be leveraged against Volug's affinity. Quite a few characters are capable of ORKOing or OHKOing with Ena's Blood Tide; Volug is not one of those. But then again, 4-E has only 1, maybe 2 significant maps; 4 of the 5 parts should be cleared in like 3 turns or less.

Edited June 29, 2009 by dondon151

[Jaybee]

The 3 Spirit Dusts are in weird places. We need to spend 8000 gold just to get the one in 1-5, the boss is standing on it in 3-9 (or its behind him, I can't remember) and the last one comes from Boyd A Mist in 3-E, but that's 2 atk supports gone poof, so that's bad.

Imbue does not magically make a unit more durable. It changes, for example, a 3RKO to a 3RKO. The only thing Imbue does is to lessen demand for healing from either a staff user or an item.

The only ones that can use Imbue effectively are Elincia, Mist and Tauroneo (12 mag at base and something like +4 upon promotion). Elincia and Mist are kinda frail (especially Mist), so it really helps them. Putting it on Taur frees up a healer as well.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Joshybear25

[Narga_Rocks]

Most of those units are so bad offensively that they shouldn’t be attacking in the first place. Mobility and durability don’t matter much in terms of healing since physic staves offset that.

He comes for free. Everyone you mentioned aside from Bastian needs to be raised, and most of them need paragon/some other form of favoritism to match his base mag. Basically, using Oliver could save us from using a subpar unit like Ilyana or Rhys while getting the same core benefits those units would offer in the final chapter.

Ok, so:

First off, paragon. Somebody's gotta use it and anyone going to endgame should have one chapter unless you just want to get 3 people to level 20 and ignore everybody else. So of course they get paragon. It isn't favouritism, it is just smart playing. Next up, free kills, another form of favouritism. By part 4 you likely have a few units that are respectable from the DB and GMs that you aren't bringing to endgame. It seems to me that it is perfectly reasonable to let them soften things. Eg: Mist is a lv 1 valkyrie and Shinon is a lv 5 Marksman, or whatever. You know you aren't bringing Mist to endgame, but neither one is ORKOing some enemy and you are using them both. Mist hits the enemy first since she doesn't need the levels anymore and Shinon kills it. This can happen on so many maps in so many different ways I shouldn't have to say why "favouritism" is expected and applauded. Well, as long as you aren't finishing maps in 15 turns or something nuts like that because of it.

You are likely using 2 1/2 healers, not 3 or more, or the team's offence isn't going to be as good and might require lots of walling and trouble in the Dragon chapter at clearing the dragons starting near you on turn 1.

Now, the units rage fox mentioned:

Micaiah: She's forced, thani can do double digit damage and on some enemies even 20 or more. You have lots of units that can't ORKO, or can ORKO but aren't going to endgame anyway so should use a weaker weapon. It is called optimising for endgame. Easy number one healer considering she starts with 32 magic and the gap just increases between her and Oliver. If she has discipline she gets to S staves in 5 physic uses, 10 without discipline, just like Oliver.

Elincia: Needs paragon, but so what. She needs it in one chapter. She does so much damage to everything not a general that it will have single digit hps left, or <15 anyway. How many useless people are you going to have that can attack from range first and not get hit back, then have Elincia come in and destroy it? Not to mention she is a very good cancel user because she gets two shots at it before the enemy attacks. In just a few levels in 4-2 she goes from not ORKOing to ORKOing everything, many of which in the first two hits, but some where she needs 3 or 4. She's not going to be your second healer but she makes a good 3rd healer considering you won't always need one and she can do some healing. Plus if you gave her paragon in 4-2 and let her kill birds and cats in 4-5 she could be level 13+ pretty easily and be pretty good.

Mist: Well, she can start with S staves and 24.9 magic if she got to 20/4 (sandbag or reasonable?). Not too bad but to get to SS swords she needs to make a lot of attacks where she isn't doing too much damage and 20/4 is only 27.5 speed, so I'm not sure how much she would have been doubling. Still, I don't think she is second healer material and since we already might have a good number 3, I don't see the point of her. Plus even with 45/46 might (Alondite) with max strength and an A anything support she only ORKO's spirits if they aren't on cover tiles, and they love attacking from those.

Laura: I did a calculation a few pages ago for her to start endgame with ~30 magic and ~27 speed. It was around 12/13/5 or something, which seems perfectly reasonable given physic usage and good enough magic to do good damage with a forged light tome from 1-E or something that we should never ever let Micaiah touch (Thani is better). Easy to get her a few kills to make that level possible, especially with one chapter of paragon. I'm not sure if she is OHKO'd, though, but she can heal while hiding just as well as Oliver can.

Rhys: If you raised him and let him take potshots when he can and kills when he can, 14/7 is still pretty bad, but no worse than Oliver. I'm not sure if crowning him in part 4 is a good idea, but I doubt it. Plus, I won't deny that probably is favouritism. 20/1 might be more reasonable, but then his mag is 27. I'm not sure I'd say he is better. If someone thinks it is easy to get him and Mist to 20/5 or even just one of them, then this might change. I think Mist is probably easier to do though because she at least can get some kills while standing in places that would get Rhys killed. ie: I think it is easier to feed kills to Mist than to Rhys. Thus, it is likely too hard to get him to 20/7 so Rhys is probably not as good a number 2 as a trained Laura. Still, if you get a 20/7 Rhys he is more survivable than Oliver.

Calill: NO. I'd bring her to endgame, but not for healing. Even with paragon in 3-9 and once after, I don't see her promoting until the end of her first part 4 chapter/in the base or during her second part 4 chapter. Then she has to use Bolganone either 16 or 8 w/ discipline times to get to SS, and that's if we are letting her use it when she doesn't need it. And we have to get her up to C Staff. And she hits 31 magic at 20/10 (maybe 4-E-2 or 3). And maybe we want our second healer to be able to rescue or recover (takes longer to reach). And maybe I want Micaiah to use Nosferatu in 4-E-3 and might want my second healer to be able to fortify.

Soren: No. See Calill, only he doesn't double auras with Nasir, but has much more magic and probably promotes sooner. He might be useable as a healer, but other than not getting doubled I don't see him being much better of a fighter. The only time he might be really good is against dragons, but that's when some people seem to need healing the most. And he can't use physic. I might just be anti-Soren or something, though, so if anyone wants to argue that Soren is a better healer than Oliver and won't be fighting enough for him to actually be there to heal, though, go ahead. With enough work and speedwings and I don't know what else, a 32 speed cap means he can double everything in 4-E-1 and 4-E-2 but warriors and swordmasters and might be able to ORKO Levail in 4-E-2, but if you put that much work into him you are likely not bringing him to endgame to heal.

Ilyana: No. Fun to use, better concrete durability than Soren and Calill means she can actually wall a few cats in 4-5 and is 3HKOd by most things in 4-E-1 and 2 (if you raised her), but even so, same issue with Calill getting to C staves and Thoron needs to be purchased so it seems Arcthunder is more likely. Meaning from partway through her first part 4 chapter until endgame she needs 20 arcthunder attacks or 10 with discipline, and again we are likely using a more expensive tome than necessary, but that means less than with Calill and Bolganone because we can actually buy more arcthunder. Still has same staff issues as Calill but likely a half a chapter more to build it. Probably a better #3 than Calill or Soren considering she is slower and thus less good at fighting and can heal from time to time, but not as good a #3 as Elincia or Mist.

Bastian: Still no fortify, so I'm not comfortable with him as healer #2. But with all his magic and almost Ilyana level durability at base level and B staves to start with, he has everything Oliver has and more except fortify and Nosferatu that I'm likely not letting Oliver use anyway.

Pelleas: This has been done to death. Everyone above him will have better and more reliable offense and doesn't need to be brought from level --/12 to --/16/7 or --/20/7 in 2 chapters while missing 1/4 of the time at the beginning just to have what Oliver already has. If you are putting that much work into him, you could have let someone else get those kills and brought a much better unit to endgame, or made one of your units already going to endgame higher level and bring Oliver.

Tormod: no point.

So I think I might actually agree with Vykan because it depends on what you let Laura do or what level you get Rhys to. However, if you are willing to just let Micaiah use fortify, then Bastian is likely a better healer than Oliver because he doesn't get himself killed as easily and heals for more (starts 1.2 lower than Oliver's average at level 20). He still isn't going to be as good a fighter as your others because they can have more speed, so we aren't losing much by not letting him fight.

I think it all comes down to whether Micaiah gets to fight or not. If you didn't level her enough to be much use in a fight and think you can live without the immortal dragonslayercrippler, then Bastian is a better healer in endgame than Oliver and the 3 slots should be taken so Oliver arguably has negative utility. Even if Micaiah isn't stuck with fortify, Laura is a good contender, but considering she needs to actually be raised I'm not sure I'd say Laura gives Oliver negative utility in endgame. Mist and Elincia starting endgame at S staves might also be an advantage, but 5 physics with discipline or even 10 without will be finished before we even need fortify.

Still, Oliver = bottom if Micaiah doesn't fight, Low if Micaiah does fight in endgame. Just my thoughts.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Narga_Rocks