OMG it's a tier list

[Mekkah]

Imbue does not magically make a unit more durable. It changes, for example, a 3RKO to a 3RKO. The only thing Imbue does is to lessen demand for healing from either a staff user or an item.

I disagree. A unit that takes 50% damage is 2RKOed without, but 3RKOed with Imbue if it kicks in between those attacks. That is certainly a durability increase.

[Vykan12]

Paragon may be a skill that low leveled units use best, but everyone in general makes such great use of it that it's a pretty significant hindrance nonetheless. Instead of putting paragon on Laura, I could've put it on Ike, who's forced to start at lv --/20/1 coming in to part 4 and is probably doing a lot of the work in his chapters. He could easily be 4+ levels higher than normal by 4-E, and it makes a difference in various ways: he gets to 34+ spd sooner, he has an easier time ORKOing generals naturally, and he becomes more effective against dragons. Or how about using it to hyper level GMs with AS issues? There's a million examples I could make about how this could be effective on high/top tier units.

[-Cynthia-]

I'd like to point out that Tauroneo isn't the only unit that makes use of Imbue, he has 16 Mag post promotion, while most other units have about 12, healing 12 hp a turn is still nice. There are a few units that have oddly high Mag scores (Titania, Tanith, Lucia, Sigrun off the top of my head), so Tauroneo being able to use Imbue isn't much of an advantage.

Edited June 29, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

Not to mention Nasir and Ena have 30+ magic (Nasir has 48 base) and both can use it. Not really that significant, but it's so ridiculous I felt like pointing it out anyways.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Vykan12

[Florete]

Since no one has opposed it and enough people seem to agree, I'll move Volug to Top tier.

I want to move Pelleas below Ena and possibly Kurth, but what about Lethe and Kyza. Do one or both of them go down as well?

[Vykan12]

Lethe's part 2 > Pelleas' blicking dragons > Kyza taking up space. At one point I thought Kyza was really underrated until I looked at him more closely in my debate vs Anouleth. Even if you speedwing him (22 -> 26 base), he still 2RKOes everything he faces, and his durability is not impressive at all aside from the usual massive hp laguz tend to have.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Vykan12

[Jaybee]

I can't help but remember how I debated with Vykan where it was agreed that Kyza > Lethe, but now he's saying Lethe > Kyza.

Also, Nasir can use Imbue? I thought he couldn't since he attacked with magic.

3-13 Archer should be down in Phail.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Joshybear25

[Florete]

Lethe's part 2 > Pelleas' blicking dragons > Kyza taking up space. At one point I thought Kyza was really underrated until I looked at him more closely in my debate vs Anouleth. Even if you speedwing him (22 -> 26 base), he still 2RKOes everything he faces, and his durability is not impressive at all aside from the usual massive hp laguz tend to have.

55 HP/20 Def can't be that bad. The strongest enemy on 3-4 are two 38 atk dracoknights, and that's a 4 round (although leaving him with one HP after 3). It goes down from there against physical enemies. His avoid is nothing special (although that Speedwing can lower some enemies into the 50's), but his durability is nothing awful.

[Narga_Rocks]

About Ike and Paragon. I know you said there are lots of examples, but since this is the one you mentioned, it is all I have to work with. Maybe I just had a much better Ike because of transfer bonuses and should play without to get an idea of what it is like, but Ike does just fine facing swarms of enemies standing near his support partner. His support partner needs to be almost as good as he is, though. With Mia and Ike, in 4-1 and 4-4 they can waltz into swarms and waltz out leaving everything dead or dying. The fun part is seeing what the AI does. Basically when I had Mia a level above Ike, and they attacked him, when Ike leveled they attacked her and then when she leveled back to Ike. Neither had paragon but because of the sheer number of enemies they killed Mia was level 12 and Ike 11 or something like that for 4-E. If Ike has a support partner that can live and kill they can take most of the Oliver area in 4-4 by themselves, with a little support from Rafiel that isn't dangerous when most things don't move and those that do can be drawn away. Plus Rafiel has to be there anyway. Earlier in the chapter at the two unit wide chokepoint up the stairs with the two generals, they can hold that for 1 or 2 turns without holding you back and kill things there too. This frees up other strong units to deal with the nuisances to the east, so Ike and Mia aren't even taking too many kills. I don't know if Ike would or wouldn't have been fast enough without the transfers and the slow playing of part 3, but the two of them are pretty disgusting at times.

As for the GM's with speed problems, the only one who will actually reach 34 speed is boyd, everyone that gets there other than him gets there with authority, and everyone else has caps of 31 or 32 or 33. I'll admit, Titania might be a decent candidate for Paragon so she can double everything in 4-E-1 and 4-E-2 but swordmasters, but she still isn't as good against spirits and auras and doesn't need the speed boost in 4-E-3. I'm not quite sure who you are talking about that needs the levels for the speed. --/20/10 should be fine for most of them, and I think they can reach that without paragon. Besides, you do have 6 uses, and a few in part 3.

But in reference to Laura, I already admitted she isn't enough to give Oliver negative utility in 4-E in my opinion because of what she needs to get there, even if she is better with it. Oliver's main competition is Bastian if Micaiah isn't fighting in 4-E because Oliver won't get the fortify staff when Micaiah can use it better.

And about Pelleas > Kyza, I'm not sure what vykan's reasons are, but as a level 18 laguz he gains exp like Titania and takes up space for a while because of it. Sure, enemies don't double him and take a few guys to kill him, but 55 HP/20 Def isn't much better than what most of the GM's are pulling and they can easily attain 30 mt with strong weapons. Heck, Titania can only get that low with a bronze axe. The point is, like vykan said he is merely taking up space. At least Pelleas doesn't even need to be raised and he can blick dragons in 4-5 better than anyone, though that is partly just cause it frees up other people to do more useful things. If Oliver is such a negative in 4-E when he is competing with Laura, Rhys, and Bastian for a slot but Laura and Rhys arguably take favouritism to get that good, then I don't see how Kyza could possibly be anything but a negative in 3-4 and most of his existence. If Oliver isn't a negative in 4-E, well, I think Kyza probably still is in his chapters, so nevermind about Oliver.

And Lethe's 2-2 alone > Pelleas blicking 3 dragons in one chapter, probably. Which is good since she is useful on like 4 turns in 2-E and 1 of those is take/drop Leanne so Heather is able to get a dracoshield and an olivi grass in consecutive turns.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[dondon151]

The only ones that can use Imbue effectively are Elincia, Mist and Tauroneo (12 mag at base and something like +4 upon promotion). Elincia and Mist are kinda frail (especially Mist), so it really helps them. Putting it on Taur frees up a healer as well.

Mist can't use it. I tried.

I disagree. A unit that takes 50% damage is 2RKOed without, but 3RKOed with Imbue if it kicks in between those attacks. That is certainly a durability increase.

Except it's no trouble at all to heal during player phase, and the advantage of freeing up a healer I already pointed out. It doesn't qualify as a "durability increase." Imbue doesn't help units survive more rounds of combat in one enemy phase, which is the time span over which durability is most generally examined, as well as the most essential, basic component of durability analysis.

[Progenitus]

This double standard is so awesome.

I did it, and I'm still here. Astrid turned out pretty awesome. It required a lot of babying for sure, but it was worth it IMO. After all, this is Bottom tier.

Protip: you can apply that sort of logic to Oliver, except we only hear you complaining that like 10 other guys can use staves and makes Oliver obsolete (even if some of them actually don't, like lolpelleas), yet every other fighter in the game doesn't make Astrid obsolete.

Clearly wasting hours abusing Astrid so she doesn't suck dick is a-okay, but Oliver? FUCK HIM WE'RE NOT EVEN GOING TO DO ANYTHING FOR FUCKING FATASS.

Your Astrid must have been ridiculously RNG blessed too. EVEN WITH BLOSSOM, these are her growth rates (if I'm not mistaken it's just growth rate x 1.1, not like it really matters since Astrid is so bad, you'd have to double them for her to get out of her hole called lolbases)

60.5 HP, 44 str, lolmag, 49.5 skl, 44 spd, 77 lck, 33 def, 55 res

These growth rates are STILL atrocious, only now Astrid is gaining half the exp she's normally getting, which means now you're just taking even LONGER to level her up. She doesn't even get another point of str/spd/def after TWENTY level ups.

Astrid is so fucking awful, at 20/20 she BARELY beats a BASE LEVEL OSCAR. Do you even realize how awful Astrid's stats are? When was the last time you even checked her average stats?

Not only that, we've been through Astrid vs Oliver before (it got erased by the rollback) and Oliver won by a landslide. Do you enjoy wasting everyone's time?

Except it's no trouble at all to heal during player phase, and the advantage of freeing up a healer I already pointed out. It doesn't qualify as a "durability increase." Imbue doesn't help units survive more rounds of combat in one enemy phase, which is the time span over which durability is most generally examined, as well as the most essential, basic component of durability analysis.

The chapter isn't one turn long, and you don't magically restore HP at the beginning of every turn. Any damage you take on one turn will stay until you heal it. You'll have to heal eventually, and imbue makes the healing go from "immediately after enemy phase" to "whenever my healer is free or when my unit can use a vulnerary".

Imbue most certainly increases durability indirectly, which STILL counts.

And you seem to think we like always having to wall in our healers so that they can actually be able to heal and not get raped on enemy phase. If my team doesn't need any healing at all (like thanks to imbue), I can get those pieces of crap off my team so I don't have to worry about protecting them, since the only reason why we're fielding healers at all is because our units aren't invincible and they need to repair the damage they take. The only time we don't have to worry about making walls is in 4-E when physics are buyable, but Imbue letting my staff users go and heal someone else is still an advantage.

Edited June 29, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Florete]

This double standard is so awesome.

You know, I never said Astrid > Oliver.

Protip: you can apply that sort of logic to Oliver, except we only hear you complaining that like 10 other guys can use staves and makes Oliver obsolete (even if some of them actually don't, like lolpelleas), yet every other fighter in the game doesn't make Astrid obsolete.

That's because at Endgame, another fighter is generally > another healer.

Your Astrid must have been ridiculously RNG blessed too. EVEN WITH BLOSSOM, these are her growth rates (if I'm not mistaken it's just growth rate x 1.1, not like it really matters since Astrid is so bad, you'd have to double them for her to get out of her hole called lolbases)

"If you're not mistaken." I can't confirm it, but I'm guessing you are. Know one seems to know how exactly Blossom works, but I generally get ~5 stats on a level up when Astrid uses Blossom.

Astrid is so fucking awful, at 20/20 she BARELY beats a BASE LEVEL OSCAR. Do you even realize how awful Astrid's stats are? When was the last time you even checked her average stats?

I guess that's why she's Bottom tier.

Do you enjoy wasting everyone's time?

Yes.

I wouldn't call his win a "landslide" either. Just because you win an argument doesn't mean you're undeniably correct.

Besides, the point was that even someone worse than Oliver can be worth more than him in the only maps he exists. Sure, it takes a lot of favoritism, but what can I do to make Oliver better? Save all the stat boosters in the game so Oliver can fail a bit less in Endgame.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Rage Fox

[Yojinbo]

I thought Tauroneo is upper-mid now :(

Also, I agree with Volug in top tier. Nolan seems to high though - he isn't really that good and I think Shinon > Mia.

I'll post some reasons later when I have more time.

Edit: I'm pretty sur that Gatrie >>> Titania in HM.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Yojinbo

[Progenitus]

You know, I never said Astrid > Oliver.

Then why are you even bothering to defend this piece of crap?

That's because at Endgame, another fighter is generally > another healer.

The difference is that Oliver takes ZERO work to even be comparable or better than most of your other staff users, while Astrid gets pwned by over HALF THE CAST without them even trying. Even the crap units like Leo and fucking Meg roflstomp her.

"If you're not mistaken." I can't confirm it, but I'm guessing you are. Know one seems to know how exactly Blossom works, but I generally get ~5 stats on a level up when Astrid uses Blossom.

Like I said, Astrid is so terrible, her growth rates would basically have to be doubled for her to even be usable.

I guess that's why she's Bottom tier.

And somehow Oliver is bottom tier?

Yes.

I wouldn't call his win a "landslide" either. Just because you win an argument doesn't mean you're undeniably correct.

Besides, the point was that even someone worse than Oliver can be worth more than him in the only maps he exists. Sure, it takes a lot of favoritism, but what can I do to make Oliver better? Save all the stat boosters in the game so Oliver can fail a bit less in Endgame.

Oliver doesn't even need a single fucking stat booster to be useful, unless you're implying healing isn't useful, in which case, we better put all the healers in bottom tier too.

I thought Tauroneo is upper-mid now :(

Also, I agree with Volug in top tier. Nolan seems to high though - he isn't really that good and I think Shinon > Mia.

I'll post some reasons later when I have more time.

Edit: I'm pretty sur that Gatrie >>> Titania in HM.

I dunno. Canto is really useful, as well as that three move. the couple of chapters that screw over horses aren't nearly coming close to overriding canto's positives, considering 3-4 only screws horses for the last half of the chapter, and 3-7 nothing really happens in that chapter anyway.

I generally consider Gatrie/Titania/Shinon to be too close to really spend time arguing about. I would consider ironing out the bigger problems first (like oliver in lolbottom) than try to move a unit up within a tier.

Edited June 29, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Vykan12]

I can't help but remember how I debated with Vykan where it was agreed that Kyza > Lethe, but now he's saying Lethe > Kyza.

Kyza > Lethe is part 3 (and maybe 4) only. If we optimize the use of both units, Lethe has part 2 to Kyza’s nothing since both are easily sub-par in pt 3+4.

Besides, the point was that even someone worse than Oliver can be worth more than him in the only maps he exists. Sure, it takes a lot of favoritism, but what can I do to make Oliver better? Save all the stat boosters in the game so Oliver can fail a bit less in Endgame.

And I’ll repeat: using Oliver saves you from having to raise some crappy unit like Ilyana or Pelleas who will probably still be sub-par in combat in 4-E anyways, thus having them attack is a complete waste. What good is having Pelleas weaken an enemy Tibarn would’ve killed anyway, especially when I now have to protect Pelleas for his useless contribution?

With Mia and Ike, in 4-1 and 4-4 they can waltz into swarms and waltz out leaving everything dead or dying.

I’d prefer getting Ike to be able to do that alone, particularly in 4-4 since 1-2 range is very important there.

As for the GM's with speed problems, the only one who will actually reach 34 speed is boyd

Nonono. I’m talking more about reaching 30-31 spd in 4-4. Titania, Haar, Boyd, etc easily fall short of that even if they managed to double consistently in part 3 at some point.

And about Pelleas > Kyza, I'm not sure what vykan's reasons are, but as a level 18 laguz he gains exp like Titania and takes up space for a while because of it.

Meh. Kyza can be deployed in maps like 3-10 with lots of unit slots and shove/smite people I guess. Other than that, Pelleas is probably better.

And Lethe's 2-2 alone > Pelleas blicking 3 dragons in one chapter, probably.

Agreed.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Vykan12

[Florete]

Then why are you even bothering to defend this piece of crap?

Do I need a reason? Can I just say I'm defending her because I feel like it?

Like I said, Astrid is so terrible, her growth rates would basically have to be doubled for her to even be usable.

If we go out on a whim and assume Blossom gives us x1.5, these are her growths:

HP: 82.5% Str: 60% Mag: 30% Skl: 67.5% Spd: 60% Luck: 105% Def: 45% Res: 75%

It's 525% total, which works well with my original ~5 stat ups prediction.

Maybe you think x1.5 is too much, but those are actually pretty good growths, and it's without doubling them. Depending on what level she is coming into 3-11 and for how long she uses Blossom w/Paragon, she can actually become a pretty decent fighter.

If we assume she comes into 3-11 at level 9 and uses Blossom until level 20, her level 20 averages become:

HP: 40 (caps at 13) Str: 22.4 Mag: 12.7 Skl: 26.58 (possible cap) Spd: 24.4 Luck: 30 (caps at 17) Def: 17.05 Res: 20 (caps at 12-13)

The thing is that she can now start using BEXP effectively after only ~4 levels with Blossom (when she caps HP and Res), in which case she'll gain Luck definitely, then Skl is most likely next, and Str and Spd tie for the next. Of course, the next problem is that she doesn't have long to use it without taking a few levels at a time, but it can still help her cap a few stats (or all if you're lucky enough, though Magic and Defense are pretty far off), which will be a big help in part 4 and give a pretty big increase to her averages, very likely making her a good endgame candidate given her great caps and choice of weaponry.

Obligatory transfer argument. With a transfer, Astrid will very likely get Skl (causing it to cap at 17-18), very possibly Spd (capping it at 19-20), and then a chance to get Str as well (causing it to cap at 17-18).

Oh wait. OMGtransfers, right? Well, as you once said yourself, this is Bottom tier, and transfer bonuses is a possible advantage Astrid has that the rest of Bottom doesn't.

This is obviously a lot of favoritism, but if we're using Astrid (which I assume we are for the sake of argument) I assume the player will take appropriate measures to make her good while keeping the negative effect to them team as low as possible, and from personal experience I can say she turns out pretty amazing given clever use of resources. Whether or not it's worth it is up to the player to decide.

And somehow Oliver is bottom tier?

He sure is.

Oliver doesn't even need a single fucking stat booster to be useful, unless you're implying healing isn't useful, in which case, we better put all the healers in bottom tier too.

I like how you exaggerate everything I say. My point was that his healing is worthless for the following reasons:

1. Any other staff user does it just as well, and Micaiah is forced.

2. Any other staff user can also have some sort of offense and/or defense, something Oliver doesn't.

3. Healing simply isn't as valuable at Endgame because we have Ike + our 10 other best units, and a free Healer and Heron, and Elixirs, and Concoctions, and just a bunch of shit that makes a unit who can only heal and do nothing else a bad idea to actually use.

[Yojinbo]

The problem is that putting Oliver in Bottom tier means he's on the same level as Sanaki/Fiona/Meg/Astrid/Lyre, which is absurd. No matter how little use Oliver has it's still a lot better than what the "true" bottom tiers can do. He is useful from the moment he joins ... some units can do his job a lot better, sure but he does "his job". Gareth isn't bottom tier for standing around with his tide and shoving/smiting for 3 chapters because that's a use he has. Therefore he isn't bottom tier.

Oliver can heal, hit opponents from a safe distance and can be used as a back-up supporter (fire isn't bad and a couple of new units still don't have a support). Even if you deploy Oliver instead of any other staff user it's still not a big loss.

Fielding Sanaki/Meg/Astrid/Fiona/Lyre is a major loss.

Technically Lyre actually needs to be a tier lower than the others now that I think of it...a stupid as it sounds even Fiona/Meg/Astrid and Sanaki have a minimal use (Fiona can support + hit with Javs, Meg can shove + help with hit issues, Astir can hit+run, Sanaki can hit hard from a safe distance) ... Lyre can do absolutely nothing...I don't think it's fair to Astrid to put her on the same level as Lyre ... as stupid as it sounds...

I'd put Oliver in low tier above Gareth and Lyre one tier below the rest.

[Vykan12]

I like how you exaggerate everything I say. My point was that his healing is worthless for the following reasons:

1. Any other staff user does it just as well, and Micaiah is forced.

2. Any other staff user can also have some sort of offense and/or defense, something Oliver doesn't.

3. Healing simply isn't as valuable at Endgame because we have Ike + our 10 other best units, and a free Healer and Heron, and Elixirs, and Concoctions, and just a bunch of shit that makes a unit who can only heal and do nothing else a bad idea to actually use.

You can pull the same argument on Astrid while making her look considerably worse.

1. Any other fighter outperforms Fiona to the point where she deserves many forms of ridicule.

2. Any other fighter can fight decently out of the gate, something Fiona doesn't do.

3. Astrid's combat simply isn't as valuable at Endgame because we have Ike + our 10 other best units, and our best weapons and skills and BEXP focused into them, and just a bunch of shit that makes a unit who needs 890789769 layers of favoritism just to fight adequately and do nothing else a bad idea to actually use.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Vykan12

[-Cynthia-]

I thought Tauroneo is upper-mid now :(

Also, I agree with Volug in top tier. Nolan seems to high though - he isn't really that good and I think Shinon > Mia.

I'll post some reasons later when I have more time.

Edit: I'm pretty sur that Gatrie >>> Titania in HM.

I would say Titania is better, Gatrie does have a durability lead, but Titania's durabiltiy is good enough that this doesn't usually result in much more enemy phase exposure. They tie offense, they can both double with resourves, so this leaves Titania's 3 Mov lead and Canto, which are kind of big, horse only leads to issues on 3-4, 3-7, and 4-4, Gatrie has big movement problems on 3-4 and 3-7 anyway, so it's not a big lead. Titania's Part 4 is generally a little better, since 33 Spd cap> 31 by a fair amount.

The main basis for Mia>Shinon is that Mia is much better than Shinon on the Enemy Phase, and more action occurs on the Enemy Phase that the Player Phase normally.

I do think Nolan is a little high. He has some utility early Part 1, but he's pretty average the rest of Part 1. He isn't doubling anything, and his durability is decent but not spectacular. For example, 1-6(1), he has 31 HP and 10 Def at level 13. The enemies with 26 Atk 2HKO him, almost every enemy on the map 3HKOs him. His chances to get doubled by Myrmidons is significant. He doesn't get a whole lot out of his Earth affinity Part 1, because he rarely dodges things even with it.

Nolan often gets a lot of credit for his Part 3, but his durability is still pretty shaky here. For example, 20/5 Nolan (generous level estimation) is still 2RKOd by 39 Atk Tigers with Tarvos equipped (39-19= 20x2= 40). 20/2 Nolan and below is getting doubled by Cats, which hurts his durability even more. He can blick things with Xbow+ Beastfoe, but so can Leonardo. Pretty much anyone benefits from Beastfoe, Nolan doesn't use it much better than anyone else.

Nolan can have a decent Part 4, but he's going to come in underlevled and doesn't have a lot of the same benefits that many other units share(flight for example, very important Part 4).

Edited June 29, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Progenitus]

Nolan seems to high though - he isn't really that good

Eh? And why is that?

and I think Shinon > Mia.

I agree. I don't think Mia is even high tier material. Consider that Tibarn is only upper mid, but pretty handily beats Mia when they both exist, and I don't see how Mia's performance in part 3 can make up for it (on the other hand, I can easily see Shinon > Tibarn, since double bow Shinon rapes Tibarn in 4-E, and I don't see Tibarn being that much better in 4-2 and 4-5 than Shinon is for all of part 3 + whatever team he ends up going with in part 4. Probably Ike's team). But I'll leave that for another time.

Now that I looked at the tier list, there really is too large a gap between Titania and Gatrie/Shinon. I thought they were all close to each other and that we'd just be arguing units moving up or down one or two spaces, but she's almost at the top of high and the other two are almost at the bottom. I guess that is worth spending time on. Then again, I think almost everyone in high tier is relatively equal (in my ranking topic, I gave everyone in high tier a 9 other than Sothe and Mia), so perhaps the gap between the top of High and the bottom of high is not the same as a gap between, say, top of upper mid and bottom of upper mid...

Since I'm on that subject anyway, Sothe should really move down. I mean, he's great in part 1, though he definitely shows signs of slowing down by the end. His part 3 is not bad, though not that good since he needs to be healed so often. But his part 4 is awful. I don't see how that's better than people like Gatrie/hawks/whatever who remain good for basically every chapter they're in.

Do I need a reason? Can I just say I'm defending her because I feel like it?

Since you're just wasting my time at this point, I'm not even going to bother with you anymore. I'll just point you to vykan and yojinbo and leave it at that.

The main basis for Mia>Shinon is that Mia is much better than Shinon on the Enemy Phase, and more action occurs on the Enemy Phase that the Player Phase normally.

Again, there's always this heavy emphasis on enemy phase.

I'm going to post something from Reikken.

I strongly disagree. Why do people keep saying this? Counterattacking isn't everything. Indeed, I don't even want Wolt counterattacking even if he could. Enemy phase doesn't work like player phase. Everyone doesn't get a turn. The only ones who attack are the ones who get attacked. I want my strong units like Lance and Deak doing the counterattacking. Why would I want to waste it on Wolt (or Barth or anyone else whose offense sucks, like Clarine <--- the reason I don't think she belongs in top tier. Good defense is much less impressive when I don't want to use it if I can help it.)?

That "o noz, I can't counterattack melee" is not a big deal at all. This isn't FE7 where you have hordes of garbage units thrown at you who die on the counterattack no matter who does the counterattacking. The one who's counterattacking matters, and it matters a lot.

AND IN RETURN for choosing bows, you get... a bow user. Someone to use all those brave, killer, silver, whatever bows that you have lying around, and get massive bonus damage on winged opponents, and good ranged offense. Ranged is good for not taking counterattacks, not getting in the way of melee attackers, not exposing yourself as much or at all when you go to attack, etc. Also you're using a less-used promotion item. No having to wait until ch 16x to be promoted.

Basically, I have everyone do something on player phase, so everyone is useful there. On enemy phase, only certain units are going to be attacked, which means if possible I want my best units to do the attacking. I have many other units to choose from other than Mia to do the counterattacking. The only time her counterattacking is really important is if it's something only she can do, be it that the rest of the team is too busy doing something else or they already all moved and I must have a frontliner in place, or for some other reason. But if she ends up counterattacking when another unit could have just as easily done the job (say by Gatrie), that's nothing special.

Basically, would you rather have a team of Ike/Haar/Titania/Gatrie/Shinon or Ike/Haar/Titania/Gatrie/Mia?

Edited June 29, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Yojinbo]

I would say Titania is better, Gatrie does have a durability lead, but Titania's durabiltiy is good enough that this doesn't usually result in much more enemy phase exposure. They tie offense, they can both double with resourves, so this leaves Titania's 3 Mov lead and Canto, which are kind of big, horse only leads to issues on 3-4, 3-7, and 4-4, Gatrie has big movement problems on 3-4 and 3-7 anyway, so it's not a big lead. Titania's Part 4 is generally a little better, since 33 Spd cap> 31 by a fair amount.

I assume that Gatrie gets the 3-3 master crown. In my book he always gets it ... I can't think of any other unit, who could get it in his place. My assumption is always that by 3-5 Gatrie is 3rd tier, that he has Luna, a considerable stat lead over Titania.

Also, Titania, isn't very durable. She has a very good base def but only20% growth. By tier 3 she won't be that durable anymore and she'll nnever dodge anyways. She also doesn't double ... I don't know what resources you're going to give her to make her double. There's no speedwing in early pt3 and the one from 2-3 is used by either Mordecai or Haar.

The main basis for Mia>Shinon is that Mia is much better than Shinon on the Enemy Phase, and more action occurs on the Enemy Phase that the Player Phase normally.

The problem is that Mia isn't even good on Enemy Phase. Even if she can hit back Shinon still has lot more durability than her. Mia is complete garbage without Adept and an Earth support on Player Phase. She has like no durability at all and no wind edges/earth affinity like Zihark does. Shinon can bait units on enemy phase and take their hits fairly well - he will deal good damage on player phase. Mia is very fragile on both phases and does't hit too hard either unless Adept + crits are involved.

I do think Nolan is a little high. He has some utility early Part 1, but he's pretty average the rest of Part 1. He isn't doubling anything, and his durability is decent but not spectacular. For example, 1-6(1), he has 31 HP and 10 Def at level 13. The enemies with 26 Atk 2HKO him, almost every enemy on the map 3HKOs him. His chances to get doubled by Myrmidons is significant. He doesn't get a whole lot out of his Earth affinity Part 1, because he rarely dodges things even with it.

Nolan often gets a lot of credit for his Part 3, but his durability is still pretty shaky here. For example, 20/5 Nolan (generous level estimation) is still 2RKOd by 39 Atk Tigers with Tarvos equipped (39-19= 20x2= 40). 20/2 Nolan and below is getting doubled by Cats, which hurts his durability even more. He can blick things with Xbow+ Beastfoe, but so can Leonardo. Pretty much anyone benefits from Beastfoe, Nolan doesn't use it much better than anyone else.

Nolan can have a decent Part 4, but he's going to come in underlevled and doesn't have a lot of the same benefits that many other units share(flight for example, very important Part 4).

I agree with most of this. You should've added his Earth affinity though ... on the other hand he is actually bad in 1-2 and 1-3. He gets outweighed by the Steel Axe and doubled if he uses it ... he can't fight without the hand axe, which gives him hit rates around 60% ... and it doesn't even deal much damage (and he doesn't double either).

[Progenitus]

I assume that Gatrie gets the 3-3 master crown. In my book he always gets it ... I can't think of any other unit, who could get it in his place. My assumption is always that by 3-5 Gatrie is 3rd tier, that he has Luna, a considerable stat lead over Titania.

So gatrie gets a crown but Titania doesn't get anything in return? not even the same crown?

Also, Titania, isn't very durable. She has a very good base def but only20% growth. By tier 3 she won't be that durable anymore and she'll nnever dodge anyways.

Her durability isn't wtfawesome but it's more than passable. Remember that just losing durability to Gatrie doesn't matter, since Gatrie just massively overkills it. It's like saying "I lose durability to Ulki". Who cares?

The durability largely means taht Titania will require more healing than Gatrie, and occasionally there will be too many enemies around for Titania to handle but won't be a problem for Gatrie. Which is a hindrance, but remember that Titania has her own big advantage (horse).

She also doesn't double ... I don't know what resources you're going to give her to make her double. There's no speedwing in early pt3 and the one from 2-3 is used by either Mordecai or Haar.

Mordy has big doubling issues even with a speedwing. If we want him to double, basically Resolve is the only option (even if it's a very good option).

Haar is only one unit, and Haar also has some issues doubling even with a speedwing. A speedwing will let him double some stuff in 2-E (not even everything, since enemies do reach 19 AS by 2-E), and maybe generals/sages, and that's mostly it.

I do agree that Titania/Gatrie (and Shinon) should all move closer though, but I don't see Gatrie clearly being better than Titania (then again I don't see Titania clearly being better than Gatrie).

I do think Nolan is a little high. He has some utility early Part 1, but he's pretty average the rest of Part 1. He isn't doubling anything, and his durability is decent but not spectacular. For example, 1-6(1), he has 31 HP and 10 Def at level 13. The enemies with 26 Atk 2HKO him, almost every enemy on the map 3HKOs him. His chances to get doubled by Myrmidons is significant. He doesn't get a whole lot out of his Earth affinity Part 1, because he rarely dodges things even with it.

Nolan often gets a lot of credit for his Part 3, but his durability is still pretty shaky here. For example, 20/5 Nolan (generous level estimation) is still 2RKOd by 39 Atk Tigers with Tarvos equipped (39-19= 20x2= 40). 20/2 Nolan and below is getting doubled by Cats, which hurts his durability even more. He can blick things with Xbow+ Beastfoe, but so can Leonardo. Pretty much anyone benefits from Beastfoe, Nolan doesn't use it much better than anyone else.

Oh no Nolan gets 2HKO'd by 3-6 tigers. Oh wait, Volug's the only guy who's even reliably surviving 2 of them, since Aran only survives by the skin of his teeth (at 20/1 with an A support two 39 att tigers leave him with like 0.5 HP), and everyone else gets cleanly 2HKO'd. Who cares?

Not to mention if we throw a robe on Nolan he can actually survive those two tigers. Best of luck replicating that on the other DB.

Although he is pretty average in late part 1 due to the prepromo swarm.

Nolan can have a decent Part 4, but he's going to come in underlevled and doesn't have a lot of the same benefits that many other units share(flight for example, very important Part 4).

The only big issue I see with Nolan's part 4 is that he'll need a master crown if he wants to be doubling immediately, since otherwise his doubling is largely limited to generals/sages. But then again, a bunch of units want an early crown to be doubling more reliably.

And, even if Nolan loses to GMs in part 4 (which is doubtful since Nolan does have nice stats), it's not like he's hurting you, or even your DB units like Aran/Volug/whatever. See, from 4-P to 4-5 we have THREE teams to fill, which is a lot of unit slots to fill up with just GMs we trained. Fielding Nolan and our other DB we trained is going to be better than fielding an empty slot due to how few units we have.

4-E is a different story, but for Nolan's case he's definitely a contender for 4-E. I mean, 30+ str and spd with earth affinity and axes and enough capacity for two 15-cap skills? That's hard to beat. The fact that his caps are ridiculous AND he starts cap ramming them all over the place is just icing on the cake.

Edited June 29, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Florete]

You can pull the same argument on Astrid while making her look considerably worse.

1. Any other fighter outperforms Fiona to the point where she deserves many forms of ridicule.

2. Any other fighter can fight decently out of the gate, something Fiona doesn't do.

3. Astrid's combat simply isn't as valuable at Endgame because we have Ike + our 10 other best units, and our best weapons and skills and BEXP focused into them, and just a bunch of shit that makes a unit who needs 890789769 layers of favoritism just to fight adequately and do nothing else a bad idea to actually use.

*Assuming you meant to say Astrid and not Fiona*

Of course it's a bad idea to use Astrid. That's why she's Bottom tier. However, I can favor Astrid to the point where she actually outperforms some of our otherwise best combat units. Looking at her caps, she's just 3 Str behind the Marksmen but also has +1 Spd (which, if reached in time, should allow her to double a SM or two. Not a big deal) and +2 move. She has 1-2 range, Canto, and 58 atk doubling everything, which is the same as an average 20/20/18 Nolan with Urvan, an average 20/19 Shinon with Double Bow, an average lv 40 Nailah, and an average 33-34 Tibarn, +3 to a max Str Ike with Ragnell, -1 to max Str Ike with Urvan, tied again with max Str Gatrie with Wishblade, etc. This is on par with some of the games best overall and Endgame units, and with 9 move, Canto, and 1-2 range. The only thing possibly better is Shinon.

I could also mention that Astrid being used makes her a fairly decent partner for Marcia if Tanith isn't in play, giving Astrid another +2 atk bonus. I think it's quite obvious that a capped Astrid is actually among your best choices of units for Endgame. She'll have a tough time reaching some of those caps even with my above mentioned method, but it all depends on what she gets and for how long, transfers, BEXP, Blossom + Paragon, etc.

Your points are obviously correct. Once again, it's the entire reason she's Bottom tier. Who cares how good she can become when so many others start much better and turn out the same/somewhat better or worse by the end with much less or even no favoritism at all?

Then we get into my problem with Oliver. I can't favor him to make him outperform others without saving and tossing all my stat boosters (especially highly sought after Speedwings) on him, which I didn't even do for Astrid (but I obviously could). I just have to use Micaiah, Mist, Elincia, etc. throughout the game like I normally do and they'll always be a better choice. If I want someone that comes right off the bat, even Bastian is better. Hell, an immediately crowned Pelleas is probably better (at least he won't be doubled by everything). I can't give Oliver a support in any decent amount of time, I can't easily fix his durability, I simply can't fix his offense, and his staff utility is too easily replaceable and just not needed a whole lot. That's why I can't see him jumping out of Bottom tier.

Once again, I'm not trying to say Astrid > Oliver (even though I'd like to). I'm simply saying he's comparable. Astrid is massive suck for a while but can eventually roll with your top units. Oliver starts out barely useful (absolutely worthless IMO, but a staff is a staff) and stays there no matter what you do, since his caps are god awful even if you can get him there.

Sorry to everything else I'm not responding to, but keeping with one argument can be tough enough.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Rage Fox

[Yojinbo]

Rage Fox, do you want to be taken serious? I'm not entirely sure about it, when I read sentences like these:

However, I can favor Astrid to the point where she actually outperforms some of our otherwise best combat units.

I think it's quite obvious that a capped Astrid is actually among your best choices of units for Endgame.

She'll have a tough time reaching some of those caps even with my above mentioned method, but it all depends on what she gets and for how long, transfers, BEXP, Blossom + Paragon, etc.

Astrid is massive suck for a while but can eventually roll with your top units.

You, sir, are on crack.

[grandjackal]

Oliver doesn't need to be favored to be able to do something, he doesn't require paragon+blossom crap, as he can just heal shit and has auto-fortify. Oliver>Astrid, fatality.

Seriously, your argument for Oliver in bottom is you can't favor him, when he doesn't need to be favored? Methinks someone in this topic has lost their mind...

Also, I really do believe Leo and Eddie should be closer. Hell, I believe he could be mid, but I won't get ahead of myself.

First off, Water does what Light wishes it could do. Leonardo also has an easier time gaining exp (mainly melee without any durability lead makes it rather troublesome). Chip damage is always welcome part 1. Eddie contributes doubling, but he's just doing one thing a turn and needs healing every turn to do more, something Leo rarely has to worry about. There is also Longbow consideration. Yeah it's inaccurate, but he's the only one doing anything at 3 range.

As for part 3 and leveling consideration, it would be fair to say Leo might be level 15. One thing about archers is they're easy to prep for BEXP, as they can do chip damage throughout a chapter till at greatest possible exp stock without leveling over, and this allows him plenty of use in a chapter without taking kills for his own. He can change 5 levels of bexp to 4.10. What is he likely to gain in those levels? You might bitch about speed, but Lughnasahd solves any problem he might have handily. No, this handles his other two weaknesses of strength and durability. He is likely to gain a holy wtf 5 HP, Str and lolLuck. This is at the cost of a couple stats in other areas, but no worries. He'll make up for it.

Either way, this doesn't stop the fact that these defense chapters are easily when swordmasters are at their worst, and anyone with a crossbow in their hands is at their best. Leo just needs someone to trade out his beastfoe crossbow to his Lughnasahd and he's golden. Eddie on the other hand has to find wasy to actually LOWER his offense, else risk a crit kill which brings another laguz in to bitchslap him. 3-12 is against Beorc, but with the bexp feeding, Leo's gotten 5 STR which at promotion gives him 20 str. With Lughnasahd, if 20 speed doubles the hoo-mans, he's doing some serious over the shoulder damage. 3-13 rolls around, and Leo is undisputed god (or he should be anyways). First off, he can pull his crossbow beastfoe-Lugh strat to be a potential wall, but the game graciously put in ballistae for anti-air, and wouldn't ya know it there are hawks about and we need to keep them off the ledge! He can do this with a crossbow as well even without beastfoe, but no one else can do it at 10 spaces away. Eddie has to suck on that shaft, because Leo can manage that even if he hasn't been trained at all. You might say that Eddie can get the same bexp treatment, but hte problem is all it does is take him form being 2RKOd by laguz to 2RKOd by laguz. It really hasn't helped him much, while it's helped two of Leo's problems.

As for bexp at tier 2, that 5 STR bonus helps Leo hit his cap at about level 17 naturally, level 15 with optimum bexp use. 5HP helps him reach his HP cap as well at level 20 naturally, level 18 with optimum bexp use. Overall, he gains this from the love.

4 Speed, 4 Def, maxed luck, and gained lol 1 magic. It's the same story of archer luxury allowing him to do easy chip damage to prime himself up. Level 13 makes it 7 levels of bexp, but he can change it to 6.10.

At promotion, his stats would look like this.

49 HP, 29 Str, 12.6 Mag, 32 Skill, 28.25 Speed, 30 Luck, 22 Def, 20 Res

Well holy fuck, he doesn't look so terrible anymore. He's also not reliant with Lughnasahd anymore. However, with the same Bexp treatment, Eddie will actually be pretty damn godly tier 3. I'd say Eddie gets the win pre-endgame part 4. Leo should go Elincia route for crossbow Foe skill hax against the laguz. Eddie can go Ike's route because he's a bad enough dude and can help pigstick those chapters thanks to being a foot soldier who kicks ass (his great speed and luck is complimented by Ike's leadership as well).

Both have the luck that they're 2 of the best endgame classes. Eddie's lucky to be stuck with swords, so he has 2 options for a final weapon, while Leo brought his own Lughnasahd. This also means he only needs 30 speed to double Auras. Both hit the required speed by 20/20/6. Eddie is easily better during the physical areas. During the Dragon era, Leo with Arbalest and dragonfoe is insta-blicking dragons as long as they aren't on cover, while Eddie's stuck with getting countered with wyrmslayers of which he can't counter back with. Eddie's still cool here, but the win goes to Leo here by quite a huge margin. Both have a hard time countering spirits (unless we gave Eddie the Alondite and Leo the Double Bow). However, Leo has a durability lead here due to his incredible resistance lead. Fight with he final boss, both don't need Nasir. They'd love Gareth or Ena however. Leo's more durable, but Eddie's far more likely to be able to counter with Alondite in hand. With Alondite in hand, he's capable of 1-2 range while Leo's got 2 range most likely. I'd say they tie here, though Eddie might have a slight lead here.

Problem with this is that it's obviously heavily reliant on bexp. However for part 1, who else can use it this well?

Doesn't help Eddie survive better part 3.

Doesn't help Aran...at all.

Nolan doesn't even cap enough of the right stats to put it to good use tier one. Same with Jill.

Prepromotes aren't hitting any caps part 1.

No point in seriously leveling up Mic as she's gonna be stuck just being a healer endgame anyways.

Meg and Fiona suck.

Lyre has herpes.

His only competition for part 1 Bexp is Eddie, and Leo puts it to better use.

Either way it comes down to this.

Pretty much tie part 1, Leo massively stomps Eddie part 3, Eddie massively stomps Leo part 4, Both are pretty damn useful Endgame.

However if this is by no means convincing, perhaps someone can be inspired to take up Eddie vs Leo and cut out the bullshit parts of my argument x.x

Edited June 29, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf