OMG it's a tier list

[_____]

lolate, but Kyza is never forced into any chapters.

You, sir, are on crack.

Madame*

[charmander6000]

Kyza with a speedwing pretty much beats Lethe until endgame where Lethe wins in E-4, E-5 and maybe E-2. Any negative Kyza gets from the speedwing is reversed from the amount Kyza is beating Lethe in parts 3 and 4. Also people in this topic overrate Lethe's performance in part 2.

2-2 has 8 olivi grass and 5 laguz stones (better used in other chapters IMO) between three laguz and with Mordecai and Nealuchi being much better laguz Lethe is going to have a much harder time claiming those resources. The only thing Lethe ORKO are mages while she 2RKO almost everything else. Her avoid is okay and she has the same problems that all laguz have.

2-E has another olivi grass that Heather can find (two, but the other is in a bad place). This chapter is the same as 2-2 except a lot more enemies have two-range which means Lethe is going to need olivi grass more often and that there are a lot of generals meaning she is able to 2RKO less enemies.

[Dat Nick]

Vykan, I agree with your argument, but I think you're going about this the wrong way.

You'd probably get much further with Fox if you just did this:

1. Any other fighter outperforms Renning to the point where he deserves many forms of ridicule.

2. Any other fighter can fight decently out of the gate, something Renning doesn't do all that well.

3. Renning's combat simply isn't as valuable at Endgame because we have Ike + our 10 other best units, and our best weapons and skills and BEXP focused into them, and just a bunch of shit that makes a unit who needs 890789769 layers of favoritism just to fight adequately compared to them and do nothing else a bad idea to actually use.

Anyway, the lowest tiered healer is currently Rhys.

Rhys's move sucks. His chip damage is kind of "meh". His durability is outright shit. Bad AS plus bad concrete durability isn't a good mix at all, and his growths for spd/def/HP are rather bad, so that won't get better anytime soon. Now that we have established that Rhys's move and durability suck ass, we also need to factor in this hurts his healer utility immensley. His move hurts it because 6 move will not keep up with everybody not named Soren on a turn to turn basis, and you certainly can't heal who you can't keep up with. His durability hurts him because he needs to stay the HELL away from any possible enemy attacks, which the rest of your army is marching right to, meaning it can be difficult for him to avoid getting hit while at the same time actually healing to be useful, and this is especially a problem on FoW as something that you don't even know is there can just whack him straight out of left field without you even knowing that there was some guy hidden there. And oh look, the GMs get a shitton of Fog maps!

Oh well, good thing we can just have him heal back from afar with Phy- oh wait no we can't because Physic does not exist at all at this timeframe, meaning Rhys is fucked pretty goddamn badly allll the way until 3-11 in which he can finally MAYBE get a physic. So he has that for two chapters in whichever group he's with and then Oliver comes along.

I'm even going to be nice and say that Rhys somehow got to 20/1 during all his suckitude:

Rhys: 38 HP, 27 mag, 22 AS, 31 lck, 14 def, 32 res

Oliver: 48 HP, 31 mag, 20 AS, 20 lck, 18 def, 32 res

what the frig? Rhys has been sucking for all these chapters and he's STILL getting beaten by Oliver in magic, which means more physic range, and even if he didn't, Oliver has more concrete durability which allows him to take at least a hit if for whatever reason he actually gets attacked, which will happen less often than with Rhys?

All Rhys has on his side is the two chapters in Part 4 he has not been sucking. And that's not enough to justify a two tier gap at all.

Edited June 29, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[grandjackal]

I believe I should post those that benefit most from BEXP, thus put it to the best use. If I may...

Part 1.

Eddie- Gives him a nice durability and power boost. However, it's all more towards his part 4 performance, as the offense boost for him is a bit more of a problem than a benefit in the defensive part 3.

Tier 1 most probable gains- 3 Str, Luck and Def. Best to start at level 17

Tier 2 gains- 4 Luck, Def, and Res, best to start at level 16.

Leo- Basically benefits the most, and can easier reduce the cost needed. Easier than other classes anyways.

Tier 1 gains- 5 HP, Str and Luck. Best to start at level 15.

Tier 2 gains- Everything but speed and defense will be maxed, both of which will be off their cap by 2. Best to start at level 13.

Nolan- He's only able to benefit tier 2, but...he doesn't really NEED it. His growths are balanced all around as is, and his stats are high all around. You've no reason to dump any into him save wanting to make him even more uber part 4.

Aran- He benefits zilch tier one, as all it would do is make him cap defense and strength faster, while taking HP, luck and possible speed away from him all for basically Skill. Very little of it as well, as he gets to best bexp use around like level 18. Tier 2?

Tier 2 gains- Caps HP at level 13, Speed at level 19, caps Resistance at level 20, gains about 12 Luck. Best starts at level 8. Massive boost for massive cost, and even worse is his tier 3 cap of 33 which overall might not even be worth it. It just makes him epic all the moreso between level 8 tier 2 and endgame.

Zihark- Yup, he benefits too. Simply put, wait till level 15 where he'll have speed, skill and resistance capped. He'll max HP and Str faster, (level 18), he'll gain 5 luck, 2 magic and 2 Def.

Tormod- Yeah, Tormod! Go figure. You could wait till he maxes strength, or just give him an energy drop. Energy drop basically is a bit overkill, as it makes him capable of having every single level BEXP powered, and it's even more resources, so let's wait till he caps it naturally. 4 levels isn't too painful. By the time he shows up again, you should have plenty of bexp lying around. He becomes quite balanced for part 4 this way, though it might be a case of too little too late. At least it's a reason to let him use discipline part 1.

Gains- Caps HP level 14, caps defense at level 15-16 (it's equal in growth to his skill), caps skill level 16, Speed at level 12, will cap resistance, gains 3 more luck than he would normally, though he gains no magic more than normal.

Part 2

Marcia- Basically, she'll gain some strength and resistance. A little bit, as she's so close to her other caps she doesn't ram regardless. Might not really be worth it, you might as well crown her.

Haar- He CAN use it to benefit his part 3 even more, but...again, does he really need it, especially since it doesn't save his endgame at all?

Nephenee- Once she hits level 12, she basically cap rams everything save luck and magic.

Lucia- Hand her a talisman, overall she'll gain 3 Str, Luck and Def. Helps her be pretty damn good for her part 4, and less resources than just about everyone above her.

Astrid- What Rage Fox said was true, but...getting her to bexp level is the hard part. Start at level 14 (Her HP is near cap, but it's one of her lower growths) and she'll be garunteed to max Skill, Speed and Luck. HP and Str will be relatively unchanged. 28 speed tier 3 ain't bad at all though. Problem is, she might have actually lost a point of defense.

Calill- It helps her, but she's one of those characters that has growths in all the right places for her class. Bexp is only to help beef her up to tier 3.

Part 3

Ike- As soon as he caps skill, it allows him to basically rape every other cap of his aside from speed and luck. Overall, scored him 2 Speed, Luck and Res. Not a bad boost, considering those are all problematic areas for him. However, as he promotes later, this makes him able to not need to kill to be useful, which allows him a sort of Jeigen use until promotion. As if he weren't incredible already.

Soren- You really should just crown him, his caps doom him to endgame healing/sniping, which any other mage can do as well.

Rolf- He'll gain 3 Def, Luck and 1 resistance, and will cap skill. Considering he's an archer though...does he REALLY need these boosts?

Boyd- He'll gain 1 speed and skill with an extra for either one, he'll score about he'll cap defense and strength, and a point of luck. Eh, you could do worse.

Oscar- Helps his offense, but not his part 4 performance. Poor Oscar's not a worthwhile long-term investment. Just crown him.

Shinon- 3 extra Str, Def and Luck. Such retarded boosts after 4 levels.

Gatrie- ...Does he NEED to be given Bexp? You could give him a crown and he'd still be fucking epic.

Rhys- He gains some utterly retarded boosts, like it's hilarious how great the boosts he gets are. Problem is, his Saint caps don't make him a worthwhile investment.

Mia- She doesn't need boosts to be awesome, but if it makes you feel better, she'll get some defense, luck and resistance. Certianly helps her part 4 even more...

Sigrun- Basically you gotta give her a Dracoshield and Secret Book to get her 1 Str, Luck and Resistance. Uhhhh, no.

Tanith- Give her a secret book however, and we get her...1 HP, capped Str, Speed and Def. That sounds fucking delicious.

Part 4

Stefan- After 4 levels, giving him BExp makes him go God mode. 5 Luck, 5 Res, bit more magic with capped Hp, Str, Speed, Skill and Def. Lololololol

Oliver- 4 levels, and bexp can allow him to actually cap ram, and best of all it fixes his speed problems far faster than normal. He cap rams...Everything!

Volke- Err...No real reason to, but you get him perfect stats after 4 levels before bexp.

Ena- Give her Paragon. After 5 levels, just shove BEXP down her throat. She'll basically cap ram everything but Str. God mode against the dragons and spirits. You basically do not ever have to worry about her dying at this point.

It gets masturbatory after this.

Take this as you will though. Just figured I'd post my thoughts.

[Zkirsche]

The main basis for Mia>Shinon is that Mia is much better than Shinon on the Enemy Phase, and more action occurs on the Enemy Phase that the Player Phase normally.

That's an offensive lead, Shinon has clear durability and support wins (Thunder > Fire). Then, he wins against every 1-2 range enemy on the enemy phrase and his enemy phrase becomes quite good after the introduction of the Aqqar and it's probably Mia's Equal in 3-2 and 3-3, better in 3-1.

With the Arbalest his enemy phrase goes from good to great and then the double bow puts the icing on the cake.

First off, Water does what Light wishes it could do. Leonardo also has an easier time gaining exp (mainly melee without any durability lead makes it rather troublesome). Chip damage is always welcome part 1. Eddie contributes doubling, but he's just doing one thing a turn and needs healing every turn to do more, something Leo rarely has to worry about. There is also Longbow consideration. Yeah it's inaccurate, but he's the only one doing anything at 3 range.

I thought everyone agreed that Ilyana > Leo? Whatever. Here's a list of Leo's phrases:

Turn 1 player phrase: Attacks enemy, doesn't get countered.

Turn 1 enemy phrase: Gets attacked, doesn't counterattack.

Turn 2 player phrase: Heals self.

Turn 2 enemy phrase: Gets attacked, doesn't counter attack.

Turn 3: Same as turn two.

Now, he has to:

a) Get healed by Laura.

B) Not face an attack on enemy phrase.

In order to get a player phrase usage back. Eddie has to do neither, all he does is chug vulneraries every turn and face an enemy every enemy phrase. 1 attacking phrase without resources > 0 attacking phrases without resources.

See, Leo isn't Shinon, who can go 7-8 turns before healing himself, giving him tonnes of player phrase (Not to mention Shinon has crossbows) until the time where he finally does have to heal himself. This is very bad towards Leo.

Also, 15/1 leo with full def support gets OHKO'ed by the 39 and 41 atk tigers, 2RKO'ed by nearly everyone else. This is much, much worse than Eddie, who gets 2RKO'ed. 2RKO'ed > ORKO'ed.

3 extra Str

Retarded boost? Shinon loves the extra atk. He does, however, appreciate it more from a support.

Edited June 29, 2009 by kirsche

[charmander6000]

Why are you putting Leo, an archer in one-range of another unit? You might as well leave healers exposed as well.

Edited June 29, 2009 by charmander6000

[grandjackal]

Retarded boost? Shinon loves the extra atk. He does, however, appreciate it more from a support.

I meant it as in it's retarded how good Shinon is, as he even puts bexp to good use. I'm saying it's incredibly amazing, like with how I used it with Rhys.

Whoa, something interesting has happened. I decided to check what happens when you drown Fiona in all her levels. Here's the rundown.

Tier 1 gains- Capped defense and speed (Gaining 6 defense and 4 speed), gain of 5 luck. Loss of about 4 HP, 4 Str, 4 SKill, 2 Resistance and 1 Magic.

She promotes to look like this.

27 HP, 9 Str, 8 Mag, 9 Skill, 21 Speed, 18 Luck, 21 Def, 9 Res.

Well if you do something retarded like this, she is defensively one of your best part 3....If you dump all that BEXP into her by 3-6, which is an act of insanity in itself. It's 11 levels of bexp. However, you can see what kind of wall she is. But basically, she's Aran without the issue of being doubled, luck is not a problem and Imbue, but not hitting as often, or as hard in return. If the enemy has 33 Atk, she gets 3RKOd without Imbue in mind.

From there, she caps speed 3 levels earlier tier 2 at level 9, and defense at level 7.

She'll end up at tier 3 with 1 more HP, same strength and skill she would have normally, and 6 more luck. This makes her entrance to tier 3 look like this.

45 HP, 24 Str, 15 Mag, 23 Skill, 26 Speed, 29 Luck, 26 Def, 22 Res.

Basically little has changed aside from luck. However, you got this at the price of basically all your part 1 BEXP to have a shit offense wall in part 3 with range and canto, in places that are generally mean to horses. Was it worth it? Very much not so. But there's her best bet.

But still, that is WAY too much BEXP to feed to just one unit.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Zkirsche]

Why are you putting Leo, an archer in one-range of another unit? You might as well leave healers exposed as well.

It gives him a small use in that he diverts attention from others. Unlike healers like Laura, he isn't ORKO'ed.

[grandjackal]

Actually...a thought just occured!

Lower level means less bexp consumed, right? Well let's use Fiona as an example again...

We look at her. She sucks. However, she's lower level than most of your guys. She would consume less bexp. We don't bexp her to tier two, but rather...Lets give her 4 levels. Most likely...

She'll have 14 Speed, 11 Luck and 12 Def. At the cost of 1 HP, 1 Str and 1 Skill (but with 4 luck? She gained 2 hit regardless). It's not shining, but it helps her out most definitely. She'll be level 13.

Offense is still not a strong suit, but the important part is she's not dying quite as easily. Imbue helps her cause. This also would mean that Fiona's Earth is now in play.

[dondon151]

The chapter isn't one turn long, and you don't magically restore HP at the beginning of every turn. Any damage you take on one turn will stay until you heal it. You'll have to heal eventually, and imbue makes the healing go from "immediately after enemy phase" to "whenever my healer is free or when my unit can use a vulnerary".

I already admitted, several times, that Imbue is useful in not requiring a healer or an item.

Imbue most certainly increases durability indirectly, which STILL counts.

No, you're confusing the previous point with this one. Imbue does not change 3RKOs to anything more than a 3RKO. To further counter Mekkah's point of Imbue increasing durability over 2 turns, no one regards durability in that manner in a debate. If I were debating Volug and then said "oh but if Micaiah uses Mend on Volug it changes a 6RKO to an 11RKO" no one gives a damn because the 6RKO for surviving in the first place is more important than anything else.

Or do you think this standard needs to be changed? I don't think debates need to be any longer and tangential than they are now.

If you take Elincia in 4-E with her like 19 magic, you'll find that Imbue does not help her survive at all because it doesn't keep generals or dragons from hitting hard; it only stacks its healing with other staves so that she doesn't have to get healed by Micaiah or some other staff user on the next player phase.

And you seem to think we like always having to wall in our healers so that they can actually be able to heal and not get raped on enemy phase. If my team doesn't need any healing at all (like thanks to imbue), I can get those pieces of crap off my team so I don't have to worry about protecting them, since the only reason why we're fielding healers at all is because our units aren't invincible and they need to repair the damage they take.

Imbue can't replace a staff user. Imbue heals far less than a staff user can, even with Tauroneo's 12 or 16 magic. Then, if you're not fielding a staff user, who else are you fielding in his/her place? A staff user is like an unlimited supply of vulneraries that doesn't demand a player phase from a combat unit to use. And then, the value of Imbue, just like the value of healers, further deteriorates with the introduction of the vastly improved healing items in this game.

The only time we don't have to worry about making walls is in 4-E when physics are buyable, but Imbue letting my staff users go and heal someone else is still an advantage.

God fuck it, man, stop repeating shit that I've already said.

Physics are available long before 4-E.

It gives him a small use in that he diverts attention from others. Unlike healers like Laura, he isn't ORKO'ed.

Since when is reducing efficiency a use? Oh, wait, ever since you argued that letting untransformed Mordecai divert attacks from units that can actually fight is a good idea.

[grandjackal]

Lessee, Meg's another one of those characters that would prefer bexp sooner rather than later.

If we can somehow get 3-4 levels of bexp into her (i suspect in the little time we had, I doubt we even have enough)...

She gets her speed up to 12, 24 HP and 12 Luck. Not sure how much 36 avoid helps, but 12 as in general helps her case a LOT. How much? Well suck on being 3RKOd by cats. This is at the cost of 1 Str, Skill and Def. But basically with this little investment, she actually resembles what her class is supposed to do. Next chapter, You need 24 ATK to 2 round her, and these are the 2nd strongest type of enemy on the map. In the long run, this little investment costs less than lets say bexp abusing someone trying to compensate for lower stats in other areas at later levels. In exchange, you get something similar to Aran, yet much more useful as she won't get doubled nearly as often, especially part 3. Another thing she doesn't have to deal with is bad luck.

However, she's still not meant for endgame, due to ultra-shitty speed caps tier two and tier 3, unless you crown her when she hits level 10, where she'll overall lose 4 Str, Def and 6 HP.

[Zkirsche]

@Pretty Boi Wolf: I hope you know how much bexp you're using.

To get to level 10 she uses 1000 bexp.

To get to level 11 she uses 2100 bexp

To get to level 12 she uses 3300 bexp.

To get to level 13 she uses 4600 bexp.

The max amount of bexp you have at this point is 3175 bexp. And that's only if all of out player units/partner units escaped 1-3 and everyone survived in 1-6-2. Both arent' terribly likely. Unfortunately for Fiona, babying just isn't possible.

Besides, Lyre is also an underlevelled unit, as she grows like a level 17 tier 1 beorc with bexp, except she's got access to more of it.

Since when is reducing efficiency a use?

Idk when diverting attacks away from Micaiah and Ilyana was inefficient but you tell me.

Edited June 29, 2009 by kirsche

[grandjackal]

@Pretty Boi Wolf: I hope you know how much bexp you're using.

To get to level 10 she uses 1000 bexp.

To get to level 11 she uses 2100 bexp

To get to level 12 she uses 3300 bexp.

To get to level 13 she uses 4600 bexp.

The max amount of bexp you have at this point is 3175 bexp. And that's only if all of out player units/partner units escaped 1-3 and everyone survived in 1-6-2. Both arent' terribly likely. Unfortunately for Fiona, babying just isn't possible.

Besides, Lyre is also an underlevelled unit, as she grows like a level 17 tier 1 beorc with bexp, except she's got access to more of it.

Thus why I said back all the way with Fiona that might not even be possible, because indeed I wasn't sure. I'm also sure it's why it doesn't help Meg's case either.

At least Lyre might gain something from it...

[dondon151]

Idk when diverting attacks away from Micaiah and Ilyana was inefficient but you tell me.

Idk when letting Micaiah and Ilyana get attacked was efficient but you tell me.

I'm 99.6% sure that enemy AI has lord priority in this game, which means that Leo can't save Micaiah.

[Vykan12]

I can't favor him to make him outperform others without saving and tossing all my stat boosters (especially highly sought after Speedwings) on him, which I didn't even do for Astrid (but I obviously could).

Why you do you want to favor him though? He’s already good at what he’s assigned to do. We’re not so short on fighters that it’s crucial that every healer we deploy is competent in battle. It’s quite the opposite, actually. In a map like 4-E-4 for instance, it’s a good idea to just deploy your 1-2 range units so that all the spirits die on enemy phase (they don’t attack Oliver since they can’t damage him on a res tile). That might only be 5 units. 4-E-1 and 2 are also enemy phase heavy, so you just need a couple of broken attackers handling various areas of the map. Using more fighters can actually prove counter-productive in some cases since the enemy will target the weakest unit they can.

Now you keep insisting that Astrid is a great endgame unit for all the work you put into her. The thing is, all that babying easily outweighs whatever performance she has in 4-E. You lose more in the long run from developing her than you do replacing Elincia with Oliver, and by a longshot.

I know Pretty Boi Wolf had a similar response but I typed mine up before I read it :P

P.S. are you going to confirm your match-up in the FE9 tourney, RF?

Edited June 29, 2009 by Vykan12

[grandjackal]

Astrid- What Rage Fox said was true, but...getting her to bexp level is the hard part. Start at level 14 (Her HP is near cap, but it's one of her lower growths) and she'll be garunteed to max Skill, Speed and Luck. HP and Str will be relatively unchanged. 28 speed tier 3 ain't bad at all though. Problem is, she might have actually lost a point of defense.

I believe this was it? Or were you thinking the bit about how one is saying that a unit that needs to be favored to be good isn't better than one who needs no favoring to have a use?

Anyways, as for BEXP for the likes of Meg and Fiona early on...

Well Fiona doesn't exactly need them immediately I suppose. btu babying is still a pain for her. With a javelin and canto, she's at best trying to limit the bexp she will be swallowing chapter by chapter, which at best will not have her at very high levels part 3.

As for Meg...At least 1 level of bexp helps her survive tigers, and she can naturally survive two blows from cats. Aran without the bad luck.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[-Cynthia-]

Mordy has big doubling issues even with a speedwing. If we want him to double, basically Resolve is the only option (even if it's a very good option).

Haar is only one unit, and Haar also has some issues doubling even with a speedwing. A speedwing will let him double some stuff in 2-E (not even everything, since enemies do reach 19 AS by 2-E), and maybe generals/sages, and that's mostly it.

We can also ship over the Speedwing from the DB as well, so Titania getting a Speedwing is not out of the question. We could also give her the same crown Gatrie gets, voila they both double.

Oh no Nolan gets 2HKO'd by 3-6 tigers. Oh wait, Volug's the only guy who's even reliably surviving 2 of them, since Aran only survives by the skin of his teeth (at 20/1 with an A support two 39 att tigers leave him with like 0.5 HP), and everyone else gets cleanly 2HKO'd. Who cares?

Jill with resources also survives 2HKOs by Tigers, she's also more durable against Cats since she isn't getting doubled like Aran is and Nolan probably is. She's better offensively than them as well, since she doubles Tigers. She also has more Mov, Canto, and flight, which is nice because 3-6 is a swamp map. The reason why it's a problem is because he's not doing much better than the rest of the DB, yet he's tiers above most of them.

The only big issue I see with Nolan's part 4 is that he'll need a master crown if he wants to be doubling immediately, since otherwise his doubling is largely limited to generals/sages. But then again, a bunch of units want an early crown to be doubling more reliably.

True, and Nolan has to be fairly highly leveled, 20/11/1 to double most 4-P enemies, 20/15/1 for 4-1 and 4-2. He probably doesn't want to go Micaiah's route frankly, since he has desert issues, so even without a crown he'll have early doubling issues.

And, even if Nolan loses to GMs in part 4 (which is doubtful since Nolan does have nice stats), it's not like he's hurting you, or even your DB units like Aran/Volug/whatever. See, from 4-P to 4-5 we have THREE teams to fill, which is a lot of unit slots to fill up with just GMs we trained. Fielding Nolan and our other DB we trained is going to be better than fielding an empty slot due to how few units we have.

4-E is a different story, but for Nolan's case he's definitely a contender for 4-E. I mean, 30+ str and spd with earth affinity and axes and enough capacity for two 15-cap skills? That's hard to beat. The fact that his caps are ridiculous AND he starts cap ramming them all over the place is just icing on the cake.

I agree, Nolan isn't bad part 4, but is mostly average, combine this with being average in 1-6 and beyond and fairly average in part 3 and I don't really see a high tier unit.

@kirsche I'm sure we can both go tl;dr in Mia vs. Shinon, but I feel like we've done that dance several times before.

[Dat Nick]

Oliver is already considered superior to Astrid. Let's work on comparing him to guys in low tier rather than people he's already superior to. Fox might be stubborn but she's already admitted that much anyway.

[-Cynthia-]

Oliver is already considered superior to Astrid. Let's work on comparing him to guys in low tier rather than people he's already superior to. Fox might be stubborn but she's already admitted that much anyway.

Agreed, I don't see the point of these comparisons, since no one is trying to move Astrid above Oliver.

[grandjackal]

Took Kirsche's advice and checked up on Lyre. Gave her 3 levels, and I'm unsure how much favoritism this might be considering part 3 BEXP.

50 HP, 14 Skill, 14 Speed and about 18 Luck, give an extra to either HP or Luck. More importantly, she doesn't take anywhere near as much bexp to get there unlike Lethe due to the major laguz level difference. Either way, having Mia-like speed is never bad.

Transformed, she's basically a lot like Mia with more move, and a LOT more HP, though lacking the extra crit and effect weapons. Thunder affinity too. 74 base avoid also never hurt anyone, especially under Ike's leadership and yummy Thunder affinity.

However, this comes at the cost of 1 Str....and that's it. 5 levels, she can double even with wildheart. However, I'm pretty sure 17 ATK is doing the equivelent of dick, so lets not give her wildheart.

[Interceptor]

I know I say this every Monday, but I hate how fast this thread moves during the weekend. It gained two pages while I was still reading it. C'est la vie. I have a few quick observations:

- I approve of Volug for Top tier. If nothing else, High is less crowded.

- I'd like to publically embarass Narga_Rocks by saying that it's refreshing to see someone posting here who very obviously has command of how the game works. Too many people here will throw out random bullshit without seeing how it actually fits into how the game environment. Most of your posts are detailed and specific, which makes them good.

- There are way too many character arguments going on at the same time.

- But I will add to the fire: smash, you are an awful advocate for characters that you've pre-judged. I am disappointed that you involved yourself in a Boyd vs. Mordecai argument that mentioned Killer Axes, but you failed to bring up the potential of a crit-forge. I tried to make this stick in your mind in the recent past by naming Boyd's forge (in the Boyd/Shinon comparison) the memorable title "Smashinator". I will keep trying, though, in the hopes that something gets through your Reality Distortion Field eventually.

- Nice to see you here, Yojinbo. It's also nice to see that you're still in complete denial about Mia's reliance on Adept (many times will beat Titania/Gatrie/etc offensively without it), and that you never mention "Vantage" anywhere in the same planet as a argument related to Mia's durability, despite it being entirely germane to the point. Ditto for Cancel, which Mia is significantly better with than almost anyone else. Oh, and you insist on Earth being required for her to play ball, even though Mia can take Shinon as a charity case support partner and still be durable with his Thunder. Anyway, I'm looking forward to bashing your face into all of these points, repeatedly, until you get it, because clearly the last 34 times didn't quite do the trick.

- Speaking of Shinon, I think he's perfectly fine where he is: barely hanging on to the bottom of High. Reikken makes correct points about Enemy Phase, but they don't support the conclusions that smash is making. Lack of Enemy Phase is a real problem, even greater than Mia's lack of good 1-2 range options (going 1-2 is a mixed bag of Skittles until Masteries and forged 1-2 range weapon come into play).

[Progenitus]

Oliver should at least be the same level as Bastian.

Bastian has better stats, but they still aren't that great, and Oliver can use fortify. Sure, Micaiah is forced into 4-E, but that's only one unit, and if we go that route she'd make Bastian obsolete too.

I mean, wtf, even pelleas is higher. We've been through oliver vs pelleas already, why is oliver still a whole fucking tier lower?

Speaking of low tier, all the dragons (yes, even Gareth) should get above lethe and kyza. At least they can do shit in 4-E. Lethe and Kyza suck and fail the entire game. Okay, technically, Lethe is *okay* in part 2, and then manages to fail even harder for the rest of the game than Kyza does.

Edited June 29, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Yojinbo]

Agreed, I don't see the point of these comparisons, since no one is trying to move Astrid above Oliver.

The point of these comparisions is to show that Oliver contributes enough - and without requiring ridiculous amounts of effort - to not be considered a bottom tier character. I clearly illustrated that in my Gareth / Oliver vs Fiona / Astrid / Meg explanation ... it's not my fault that nobody took notice of it / responded to it (except smash, who like everybody except RF agrees that Oliver isn't bottom).

edit: lmfao @ Int, I never even said that Mia wasn't good or lower than high tier (that was smash jfyi). I just said that Shinon > her and that she sucks without Adept.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Yojinbo

[Dat Nick]

As I said. Our goal should be to compare Oliver to low tier characters, rather than bottom tier characters he's already deemed superior too. Then there's Lower Middle characters like Rhys who Oliver is a superior healer to at Endgame, and yet Rhys is three tiers up on him.

Edited June 29, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[Yojinbo]

As I said. Our goal should be to compare Oliver to low tier characters, rather than bottom tier characters he's already deemed superior too. Then there's Lower Middle characters like Rhys who Oliver is a superior healer to at Endgame, and yet Rhys is three tiers up on him.

I showed that Oliver is at least on the same level (aka tier) as Gareth, who's clearly not bottom tier.