OMG it's a tier list

[grandjackal]

I wouldn't mind, even if it increases his enemy exposure. Pt3 is full of chokepoints that can be blocked if you play it right.

It takes two people to kill Eddie. Eddie's dodge isn't spectacular. He kills a person who attacked him, another's coming in to attack him. Eddie will be dead. On the other hand, just trading out Leo with one character generally doing nothing? It's hilarious how effective a simple trade action makes Leo, while Eddie's got a problem no matter what he does.

That's BS, my friend.

Fine, he's better off than Meg and Fiona.

There is more than one Master Seal in part 1.

Well yeah, point to be had there.

It will obviously help ... it's basically a free lvl up anytime Eddie is lvl 10+. And unlike Leo Edward hasn't craptastic growth rates.

Eddie's growths don't let him survive any better than usual part 3. Sealing him dooms him to this, as now you have caused him to level slower. Leo's growths I can note are perfectly fine, given his class and affinity. His growths also make him a more effective person to BEXP, as when he caps skill and luck it can only fix problem areas from there. Eddie gets BEXPd, and it will not help him become durable enough to have any sort of existing durability part 3. You can thank his bullshit 30 HP cap.

Yeah, let's shove our most valuable resources in pt1 into Ziharks ass, despite the fact that he can rape lots of enemies in pt1 with a forged sword only. If you really want you can give Cancel to Zihark in pt3, where his performance really matters. In pt1 he doesn't even need Adept/Cancel/Brave Sword to be good so giving it to him would be ineffective as hell.

Why wouldn't he want those part 1? Adept and Brave Sword is MUCH more helpful part 1, especially in 1-E. If anything, he doesn't want Adept and Brave Sword for part 3, neither does Eddie. I'd also argue if anyone is using Adept well, it's Jill with her canto and flight part 3.

But Nolan doesn't have a weapon that lets him attack twice in a row to increase the chances of activating Cancel. He also has never as much spd as Edward does. Base Edward has more spd than base Nolan and the same growth rate ... but Edward will grow faster as he is lower leveled.

Nolan is also more durable as is, as Cancel only effects the first strike anyways. I don't give a shit Eddie doubles, Cancel's pointless on the second strike. Nolan puts it to better effect, as it makes him even more durable.

Also, Nolan can hit with Hand Axes as well, which is a lot safer.

Ok, then he can risk a counter at range to put it to use that way, which could weaken an archer or a mage for someone else to kill. Cancel's great at making durable people have more player phase offense.

Why would it help? Sothe can already 1HKO cats in 1-4, 3-6 and 3-13. Cancel doesn't give him a notable boost.

He wishes he OHKOd cats. He ORKOs at best. Giving him cancel gives him chances of player phase with less risk.

Cats are also not the only enemies on the map.

But that's pt3, not pt1.

Fine, she can use it to more safely attack on player phase part 1 with any weapon, then lets her fly off with canto. Your point?

So what are you saying? That Eddie is the best user for the Brave Sword? I completely agree.

Not so much he puts it to best use, as much as he's dependent on it. Zihark puts it to best use.

Wind Edges aren't that bad ... they are weak, yes but Eddies support gives him +hit, so it's not like he'll never hit...

Good thing Leo doesn't have to deal with that shit.

But as a note, yes it is that bad, as it's piss weak. Considering the damage he would do, and the fact he actually has doubling issues early on, he's basically giving the enemy the equivelant of a cool breeze, considering he even hits. 60 hit sucks. Considering he maxes out skill and has about 15 luck, that's 115 hit. That's terrible.

Wow, what a horrible argument. Just remove it, give it to Miccy, problem solved.

Considering I'm arguing Leo above Eddie, and not just arguing who's part 3 is better? I can't remove it until 1-4. It's a problem up until then.

[Dat Nick]

I don't, I think he's overrated. I recall pretty much everyone agreeing that Ilyana > leo.

Maybe it's just me, but I thought everybody agreed to the other way around.

[-Cynthia-]

Yes, I also agree that Leo is better than Eddie, though I don't think Eddie should fall, but rather just Leo and Stefan rise above him, with Mak falling below him (seriously, how did Mak get above Eddie?). Hell, Leo can use BEXP better than Eddie as well. LOTS better.

I just want to point out that Eddie's not a bad candidate for BEXP. He caps HP,Skl,Spd at 18/0, which means he can fix his Str/Def pretty easily. At 20/12 he caps HP and Str, and frankly crowning him here doesn't lose out on many long term benefits. Or we could could wait until 20/16, when he also will cap Spd/Skl.

Leo caps Skill and Res at 15/0, which I'm not really sure is better than capping 3 stats( 2 of which actually matter) at 18/0. At tier 2 he caps Skill/Res at 20/13 and won't cap anything else, I don't really see how Leo is better with BEXP.

And yeah, Makalov got really high somehow. He has some subpar CRK chapters and is a total waste in the 2 GM chapters. I guess he's kind of useful Part 4 if he somehow gets to tier 3, but a 33 Spd cap kills all his potential anyway. At least people like Lucia/Nasir/Tormod have some sort of utility at various points in the game.

Edited June 30, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Dat Nick]

I wouldn't say Makalov>Ilyana is entirely unarguable.

[Zkirsche]

Maybe it's just me, but I thought everybody agreed to the other way around.

Both Smash and Jonathan Aulin agreed. And the only opposition was:

"Leo blicks dragons in 4-E-3" which can be done by any other sniper or any reaver.

"Ilyana is the worst GM. Leo is the second worst DB" when the fact is that Ilyana has more time to improve in said chapters.

And the clichher:

"It was decided that Leo > Ilyana before" <_<

When it came to statistics, it was shown that Ilyana was better in parts 1 and 4 for enemy phrase.

[grandjackal]

I just want to point out that Eddie's not a bad candidate for BEXP. He caps HP,Skl,Spd at 18/0, which means he can fix his Str/Def pretty easily. At 20/12 he caps HP and Str, and frankly crowning him here doesn't lose out on many long term benefits. Or we could could wait until 20/16, when he also will cap Spd/Skl.

It doesnt help his durability problems for part 3. you might as well be setting it on fire.

Also consider with archers, they have the easiest time getting exp as they can just sit back and do chip, while other classes frontline and might have to risk kills. This allows Leo (and in turn Rolf and Shinon) swallow bexp a bit easier than most. Considering Leo actually hits the BEXP count at...what do you know, level 14, it helps him durability-wise with 5 HP, and helps his strength with a heft 5 point boost. This lets him eventually hit his caps tier two, where BEXP can be used again to further fix him up in other problem areas. BEXP contributes to his part 3 AND 4, while Eddie BEXP contributes solely to his part 4. Any speed issues part 3 Leo might have are easily solved thanks to Lughnasahd's +5 speed boost.

Leo caps Skill and Res at 15/0, which I'm not really sure is better than capping 3 stats( 2 of which actually matter) at 18/0. At tier 2 he caps Skill/Res at 20/13 and won't cap anything else, I don't really see how Leo is better with BEXP.

Cause it increases his durability and strength, along with letting him be even more bexp viable when he hits more caps tier 2. Also consider that with his unique weapon, he only needs 29 speed rather than 34 for part 4...

And yeah, Makalov got really high somehow. He has some subpar CRK chapters and is a total waste in the 2 GM chapters. I guess he's kind of useful Part 4 if he somehow gets to tier 3, but a 33 Spd cap kills all his potential anyway. At least people like Lucia/Nasir/Tormod have some sort of utility at various points in the game.

Lucia and Tormod also have ways to fix their part 4.

[Progenitus]

If Rolf and Boyd stand next to each other both characters get +10crit, and +10 dodge. And Rolf doesn't join just before 4-E but in 3-P and has like 12 chapters or so of utility (not counting his ability to attack from ~2 range with potentiall very high crit). GM chapters in general have many unit slots (3-2 has 16, 3-4 has 12, 3-5 has 16, 3-8 has 12, 3-10 has 14 and 3-E has 12). There's enough room to deploy Rolf and he can do a nice job - supporting 3 units (two of them are in the upper half of the tier list) without taking resources and a good number of options for crits (a +hit support + gamble + bond supports), which helps units with doubling issues.

In pt4 there's even more room for deployment, since the groups are seperated and again all chapters have at least twelve slots to deploy units. Even a base level Rolf can do a decent job at supporting ...

Because, as we all know, it's completely safe to assume that Rolf isn't going to ever get attacked when he's standing right next to Oscar, who's supposed to be AT THE FRONTLINES.

And supposedly giving out a minor crit boost to a few units in a few chapters is better than what people like Stefan and Volke are doing, which is, you, ACTUAL FIGHTING?

also, wtfux @ everyone thinking edward's enemy phase matters. Do you guys forget that for him to do ANYTHING on enemy phase, he either forces laura to heal him every turn or he doesn't even attack on player phase because he's getting 2HKO'd at ridiculous hit rates, and anytime he tries to do something on player phase he takes a counter in the face and his offense isn't significantly better? Leo doesn't get raped nearly as badly as Edward does because he doesn't require healing every single turn and is about 10012612361326143 times easier to protect because he can 2-range in chokepoint heaven chapters.

"but vulnerary"

except this is assuming that Edward isn't in your way on the enemy phase after he attacked something, which happens a lot less often than Leo getting in your way because Edward has to use 1-range if he wants any sort of offense while Leo can 2-range and hang in the back with Micaiah, so this is still a big advantage for Leo.

"but wind edges"

Except now Edward's hit sucks balls because the wind edge has terrible hit (like 70-75 displayed hit), and if one hit misses his damage output is to the point where he may as well not have even attacked. At least Leo's potshot might be enough for someone like Nolan to finish off.

And this is all assuming Edward actually doubles.

For example, in 1-3 most enemies have at least 10 or 11 AS (a few have 8-9 or 12), which means Edward only doubles about half the map.

In 1-5 the fighters have 12 AS and the soldiers/archers have 13, which means he needs to be ~11/0 to start doubling just the fighters, which might happen at the end of the chapter but certainly he's not going to be doubling them for very long. It's about the same case in 1-6-1, so he still won't be doubling the soldiers/archers until the end of the chapter. woohoo

He might start doubling (*might*, since enemies do get faster. The fucking armors in 1-7 reach 14 AS) after this, but that's still over half of part 1 where he's only doubling half the map or less. Which is pretty damn sad considering offense is the only thing Edward has going for him.

Edited June 30, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Zkirsche]

It doesnt help his durability problems for part 3. you might as well be setting it on fire.

Leo's worse, so I don't see your point.

Also consider with archers, they have the easiest time getting exp as they can just sit back and do chip, while other classes frontline and might have to risk kills. This allows Leo (and in turn Rolf and Shinon) swallow bexp a bit easier than most. Considering Leo actually hits the BEXP count at...what do you know, level 14, it helps him durability-wise with 5 HP, and helps his strength with a heft 5 point boost. This lets him eventually hit his caps tier two, where BEXP can be used again to further fix him up in other problem areas. BEXP contributes to his part 3 AND 4, while Eddie BEXP contributes solely to his part 4. Any speed issues part 3 Leo might have are easily solved thanks to Lughnasahd's +5 speed boost.

.... I don't understand a word of that.

Are you saying that because they only deal chip damage they shouldn't get bexp? That's saying "Hey, we're just gonna let the guys up front stay really weak so the guys at the back - who aren't even killing things - can be better. H4x."

Letting out front liners be weak is silly.

By the way, bexping Leo should start at level 15 when he gets his first cap. He's likely to get Res, HP and luck. Then, at level 16, he'll likely get HP, Luck and strength. If you want any use in part 3, you'll seal him at this point. Bexp does very little for Leo.

Cause it increases his durability and strength, along with letting him be even more bexp viable when he hits more caps tier 2. Also consider that with his unique weapon, he only needs 29 speed rather than 34 for part 4...

Doesn't change the fact that Eddie uses it better as he has 3 stats capped, not 2.

also, wtfux @ everyone thinking edward's enemy phase matters. Do you guys forget that for him to do ANYTHING on enemy phase, he either forces laura to heal him every turn or he doesn't even attack on player phase because he's getting 2HKO'd at ridiculous hit rates, and anytime he tries to do something on player phase he takes a counter in the face and his offense isn't significantly better? Leo doesn't get raped nearly as badly as Edward does because he doesn't require healing every single turn and is about 10012612361326143 times easier to protect because he can 2-range in chokepoint heaven chapters.

"but vulnerary"

except this is assuming that Edward isn't in your way on the enemy phase after he attacked something, which happens a lot less often than Leo getting in your way because Edward has to use 1-range if he wants any sort of offense while Leo can 2-range and hang in the back with Micaiah, so this is still a big advantage for Leo.

If he kills the unit, it doesn't matter.

Plus, it only takes a level 7 Leo to have 14 AS by 1-3. That's 3 levels in 3 chapters. Not hard.

Edited June 30, 2009 by kirsche

[dondon151]

Considering I'm arguing Leo above Eddie, and not just arguing who's part 3 is better? I can't remove it until 1-4. It's a problem up until then.

Innate Wrath is an advantage for Eddie in early DB chapters. I'm pretty sure his chances of ORKOing with Wrath in later DB chapters are actually pretty low (as in nowhere near guaranteed), so he's good for taking one attack per enemy phase and killing or crippling the enemy back.

In fact, I'm 100% convinced that this is the best way to use Eddie, as getting him to attack during player phase means that he ends up in a precarious position (can't use healing item, risky for Laura/Micaiah to heal) and only got one chance to activate Wrath instead of two.

I just want to point out that Eddie's not a bad candidate for BEXP. He caps HP,Skl,Spd at 18/0, which means he can fix his Str/Def pretty easily. At 20/12 he caps HP and Str, and frankly crowning him here doesn't lose out on many long term benefits. Or we could could wait until 20/16, when he also will cap Spd/Skl.

Wow, Eddie gets 2 levels of BEXP to "fix" his problems. I'm pretty sure that 2 levels is asking for a huge amount of BEXP from the DB's part 1 pool. In fact, if you're part of the DB, BEXP almost shouldn't be considered because you get so little of it. Even if Eddie had the potential to "fix" his problems, he won't have the resources to do so.

Leo caps Skill and Res at 15/0, which I'm not really sure is better than capping 3 stats( 2 of which actually matter) at 18/0. At tier 2 he caps Skill/Res at 20/13 and won't cap anything else, I don't really see how Leo is better with BEXP.

He gets at least 2 of HP, str, spd, or def, and mag is his lowest growth, and he has more chances at doing so. Again though, BEXP woes.

enemy phrase/player phrase

OK dude I know you think that we all know what you're talking about when you say "phrase" instead of "phase" but it's a little irritating and I'm sure you know the difference in meaning between "phrase" and "phase" so could you please start typing it right?

It's one less character =X more efficient!

Edited June 30, 2009 by dondon151

[Progenitus]

If he kills the unit, it doesn't matter.

Because as we all know, enemies come by themselves.

Nope. cause everytime Edward attacks, all nearby enemies magically disappear so that they can't attack him on enemy phase, mirite

Plus, it only takes a level 7 Leo to have 14 AS by 1-3. That's 3 levels in 3 chapters. Not hard.

That's to double the lower end of the enemies, and you ignored every other chapter I just listed.

[dondon151]

Now that I think about it, I remember when arguing Eddie vs. Leo that at some point, enemies stop putting Eddie into Wrath range after 1 hit. I think it's more advantageous for Eddie to be on the lower end of durability (i.e. underleveled) so that he can at least try to kill enemies, as having better durability doesn't improve 2RKOs to 3RKOs and gimps his already bad offense.

[-Cynthia-]

Wow, Eddie gets 2 levels of BEXP to "fix" his problems. I'm pretty sure that 2 levels is asking for a huge amount of BEXP from the DB's part 1 pool. In fact, if you're part of the DB, BEXP almost shouldn't be considered because you get so little of it. Even if Eddie had the potential to "fix" his problems, he won't have the resources to do so.

I never said Eddie was ever entitled to any BEXP, just countering the claim that Leo performed better with it. For the tier 2 part of the comparison we can assume that he now has access to the GM/CRK pool, which is much greater.

Edited June 30, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Progenitus]

wrath is a lot better off on micaiah since she has an easier time getting to the required HP and staying there.

Edward has to take an attack if he wants to be put at wrath range, and then if he attacks something and doesn't crit he's in deep shit because the enemy counters him.

[grandjackal]

Leo's worse, so I don't see your point.

Leo uses BEXP, he gets a noticeable boost in use. Eddie doesn't.

.... I don't understand a word of that.

Are you saying that because they only deal chip damage they shouldn't get bexp? That's saying "Hey, we're just gonna let the guys up front stay really weak so the guys at the back - who aren't even killing things - can be better. H4x."

Letting out front liners be weak is silly.

Let me simplify it.

Leo can be of use hanging back doing chip damage. I recall it is about 7 exp a strike, which means he can land 15 blows a battle before leveling up. Eddie is the same. However, Eddie is supposed to be a front liner, melee no less. How rediculous do you feel knowing you sent a frontliner to do melee chip damage for the same effect? This is my point, Leo's chip damage is useful as it doesn't get him hurt, while weakening an enemy for less counters for your meleemen. With this in mind, Leo has an easier time turning 2 levels of bexp to 1.5-1.1. Eddie on the other hand due to countering and his doubling, he's prone to more counter exp and accidental kills, which could overall cause accidental level ups, which with bexp he can't afford to do as he only has 2 levels available to pull something off.

By the way, bexping Leo should start at level 15 when he gets his first cap. He's likely to get Res, HP and luck. Then, at level 16, he'll likely get HP, Luck and strength. If you want any use in part 3, you'll seal him at this point. Bexp does very little for Leo.

That HP helps him survive part 3, Strength helps do more damage, and overall those stats help him reach his HP, Strength and Luck caps tier two, where then his Defense and Speed are now primed for BEXP. The two levels of Bexp for Eddie does...little to nothing part 3 that he wasn't already doing. Yes, this is rather BEXP reliant, but BEXP, Sealing, training him normally, none of this helps him perform better part 3.

Doesn't change the fact that Eddie uses it better as he has 3 stats capped, not 2.

Wow, he went from being 2RKOd to 2RKOd. If anything, due to his class having crit? Part 3, more STR is the last thing he needs as it makes him even riskier a wall part 3. All bexp for Eddie only contributes to his part 4. Does the same for Leo, except BEXP on him also contributes to his part 3. Contributing to 2 parts>contributing to 1 part.

[Yojinbo]

It takes two people to kill Eddie. Eddie's dodge isn't spectacular. He kills a person who attacked him, another's coming in to attack him. Eddie will be dead.

"A person"? You mean a Pt1 enemy/Laguz/Cat/Tiger etc? Specify this, please.

On the other hand, just trading out Leo with one character generally doing nothing? It's hilarious how effective a simple trade action makes Leo, while Eddie's got a problem no matter what he does.

Leo has the same durability problem as Edward does on enemy phase. In fact since Leo gets Crossbow + Beastfoe he will actually kill more stuff and thus increasing his exposure more than Eddie does, who still has good chances to not kill an enemy by equiping a weak sword.

Fine, he's better off than Meg and Fiona.

As well as Nolan and Aran. That leaves us with Jill, Ilyana and Leo, who are supposed to be better off (according to you) than Edward. All the other units either can't be sealed or get reyally screwed.

Eddie's growths don't let him survive any better than usual part 3.

No but they fix the skl/spd/str that was skipped due to the early promotion.

By promoting he gets +2HP, +1Def and +2Res. Nothing spectacular but with still pretty good: Throw in a possible B-support with Leonardo around 1-6 and you have a nice durability boost right there... when he promotes he gets another +2HP, +1Def and +2Res. That's a +3 for Def and +2 for HP overall. At lvl 10 this brings him to 10Def, the same amount Nolan has at 14 (assuming Nolan doesn't support somebody with +def).

If he promotes at lvl17 + B-support with Leo... he has:

32HP, 17Str, 21Skl, 21Spd, 13Def

A promoted Nolan has:

37.6HP, 18Str, 20Skl, 18Spd, 14Def

I'm not sure about Nolans support situation but that doesn't look bad. In Edward will probably be lvl17 before or at the same time Nolan promotes.

Sealing him dooms him to this, as now you have caused him to level slower.

No, not at all. Being able to perform better in actual combat than before helps him to make up for it.

Eddie gets BEXPd, and it will not help him become durable enough to have any sort of existing durability part 3.

1.) You don't have enough BExp to make a huge difference for Leo either.

2.) Assuming Eddie has a modest lvl 17 at the end of pt1 he has capped HP and Spd and most likely Spd as well. That means he will get str, def and lck boosts via Bexp

3.) Edward has better defensive stats than Leo, regardless.

You can thank his bullshit 30 HP cap.

He reaches it at 17. By that time you can promote him and he won't be hindered by his cap anymore.

Oh, and Leo only has 29HP at 20/1 ... no bullshit cap needed to screw him.

Why wouldn't he want those part 1? Adept and Brave Sword is MUCH more helpful part 1, especially in 1-E. If anything, he doesn't want Adept and Brave Sword for part 3, neither does Eddie.

I didn't even say that Edward wants that stuff in pt3 in the first place. I was mainly referring to pt1. Zihark can do just fine without the Brave Sword in pt1 ... Killing Edge/Adept and his base stats are about enough.

I'd also argue if anyone is using Adept well, it's Jill with her canto and flight part 3.

Go ahead and give it to her. I never argued Adept for Edward.

Nolan is also more durable as is, as Cancel only effects the first strike anyways. I don't give a shit Eddie doubles, Cancel's pointless on the second strike. Nolan puts it to better effect, as it makes him even more durable.

Cancel activation is based on spd. Eddie has better speed, thus he is morelikely to activate it. If you attack twice before the opponent can counter (Brave Sword effect) then you increase your chances even more.

Not so much he puts it to best use, as much as he's dependent on it. Zihark puts it to best use.

No Eddie makes better use of the Brave sword because ziharks performance won't improve much. He one rounds most opponents anyways with Killing Edge + Adept. Whether he uses a Brave Sword doesn't make a difference to him. In Eddies case it does make a major difference.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Yojinbo

[dondon151]

wrath is a lot better off on micaiah since she has an easier time getting to the required HP and staying there.

Not really. For both characters it amounts to 1 Wrath'd round of combat per turn: Micaiah on player phase, Eddie on enemy phase. Since Eddie tends to double more, he has a higher chance to activate a critical and kill something.

Edward has to take an attack if he wants to be put at wrath range, and then if he attacks something and doesn't crit he's in deep shit because the enemy counters him.

No one would honestly have Eddie kill something if he has a 50% chance of dying.

[Progenitus]

No one would honestly have Eddie kill something if he has a 50% chance of dying.

which is precisely why Micaiah with wrath is infinitely better than Edward with wrath is, since there are far fewer enemies that can counter her than can counter Edward.

[Interceptor]

Not really. For both characters it amounts to 1 Wrath'd round of combat per turn: Micaiah on player phase, Eddie on enemy phase. Since Eddie tends to double more, he has a higher chance to activate a critical and kill something.

I agree with smash's conclusion, I just think he picked the wrong reason. Micaiah is better with Wrath because she's more consistent: easy access to +10 Bond from Sothe, she's OHKO'ed even at full HP so you're protecting her no matter what, and partially owing to reason #2 there's zero chance that she either a) dodges a hit and doesn't go into Wrath range, or B) doesn't get hit hard enough to go under 30%. Micaiah is also way less likely to get countered. I'd say it's pretty clear that she has significantly more opportunities to use it than Eddie. This is one instance where the possibility of doubling is not really useful for the point.

No one would honestly have Eddie kill something if he has a 50% chance of dying.

Certainly you must be used to this by now, you've been posting in this thread longer than most.

[dondon151]

which is precisely why Micaiah with wrath is infinitely better than Edward with wrath is, since there are far fewer enemies that can counter her than can counter Edward.

This... doesn't counter in any way my point about both of them being limited to 1 attack per turn. Micaiah also has to give up 2-3 turns at the beginning of the chapter to get into Wrath range, and by doing that she gives up her capability to Sacrifice any decent amount of HP.

I agree with smash's conclusion, I just think he picked the wrong reason. Micaiah is better with Wrath because she's more consistent: easy access to +10 Bond from Sothe,

Eddie has +5 crit from class bonuses and attacks twice. If we're going to compare Eddie's 55% crit x2 to Micaiah's 60% crit, Eddie has a 79.75% chance of critting at least once compared to Micaiah's 60%.

she's OHKO'ed even at full HP so you're protecting her no matter what, and partially owing to reason #2 there's zero chance that she either a) dodges a hit and doesn't go into Wrath range, or B) doesn't get hit hard enough to go under 30%. Micaiah is also way less likely to get countered.

The first point is true. The second and third points are a bit flimsy. Without WT, Eddie never really has a good chance at avoiding enemy attacks. I'm too lazy to pull up numbers right now but I'm fairly sure that Eddie never has a good chance at avoiding really anything, but in the case that the enemy does miss, I'm sure that evens out with Micaiah requiring 2-3 turns to put herself in Wrath range. As for getting hit hard enough, you can probably sandbag Eddie's level a little for that, since I recall when playing with earlier numbers that enemies leave him with HP in like the 30%s, though that brings up the question of Eddie being able to ORKO even with a crit. I'm sure he can, though, or if not we could just forge more MT for that purpose.

I'd say it's pretty clear that she has significantly more opportunities to use it than Eddie. This is one instance where the possibility of doubling is not really useful for the point.

If Micaiah wins, I'm don't think it's by a significant margin. Whatever the case, Eddie needs Wrath more than Micaiah, as she doesn't give a damn about kill EXP and chipping in with Thani promotes the growth of everyone else on the team. Without Wrath, Eddie can't KO anything reliably.

I suppose the point of that was that 2 viable units > 1 and Eddie wants Wrath if we're using him whereas Micaiah doesn't care either way.

Certainly you must be used to this by now, you've been posting in this thread longer than most.

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean =X

Edited June 30, 2009 by dondon151

[Progenitus]

This... doesn't counter in any way my point about both of them being limited to 1 attack per turn.

I find it hilarious that you complain my counter being "irrelevant" when you did the exact same thing.

QUOTE (smash fanatic @ Jun 30 2009, 01:35 PM) *

wrath is a lot better off on micaiah since she has an easier time getting to the required HP and staying there.

Not really. For both characters it amounts to 1 Wrath'd round of combat per turn: Micaiah on player phase, Eddie on enemy phase. Since Eddie tends to double more, he has a higher chance to activate a critical and kill something.

Nevermind that you didn't actually counter my point about Micaiah being 2365126134632643 times easier to keep alive than Edward.

gj being a hypocrite like usual

Micaiah also has to give up 2-3 turns at the beginning of the chapter to get into Wrath range, and by doing that she gives up her capability to Sacrifice any decent amount of HP.

2-3 turns? wtf are you smoking? One sacrifice on a low HP unit does the trick.

"oh no she can't sacrifice anymore". So what? Now her offense skyrockets. It's not like Micaiah healing people every other turn is any better.

[dondon151]

I find it hilarious that you complain my counter being "irrelevant" when you did the exact same thing.

QUOTE (smash fanatic @ Jun 30 2009, 01:35 PM) *

wrath is a lot better off on micaiah since she has an easier time getting to the required HP and staying there.

Not really. For both characters it amounts to 1 Wrath'd round of combat per turn: Micaiah on player phase, Eddie on enemy phase. Since Eddie tends to double more, he has a higher chance to activate a critical and kill something.

Nevermind that you didn't actually counter my point about Micaiah being 2365126134632643 times easier to keep alive than Edward.

gj being a hypocrite like usual

huh

If Eddie sees one round of combat, he's not dying. Both of them see one round of combat per turn, maximum. Eddie requires a vulnerary or a heal. Eddie won't attack on player phase and Micaiah won't attack on enemy phase. Keeping people alive has literally nothing to do with it.

Are you not understanding something or what because this seems pretty elementary to me.

2-3 turns? wtf are you smoking? One sacrifice on a low HP unit does the trick.

Generally Micaiah doesn't heal people on turn 1, because it's used for positioning for enemy phase. If Micaiah heals on turn 1, that's also putting her in significant danger. That's 2 turns minimum. If she doesn't heal enough, that's 3 turns.

There's very few instances where units are taking damage on player phase turn 1.

- There are few enemies in range and can be dispatched by ranged unit + melee unit, meaning no counter. This is like 1-4, 1-5, 1-7, 1-E.

- Micaiah can't reach player units if they attack on turn 1. IIRC 1-6 (both maps) are like this.

"oh no she can't sacrifice anymore". So what? Now her offense skyrockets. It's not like Micaiah healing people every other turn is any better.

Micaiah giving other units HP lets them see more combat. Compare letting other units see more combat to Micaiah's 50-60% chance of OHKOing something. Depending on the unit, Sacrifice contributes a lot more than one Wrath attack.

Edited June 30, 2009 by dondon151

[Interceptor]

Eddie has +5 crit from class bonuses and attacks twice. If we're going to compare Eddie's 55% crit x2 to Micaiah's 60% crit, Eddie has a 79.75% chance of critting at least once compared to Micaiah's 60%.

What enemy is Eddie attacking that's not going to pwn him dead after the first swing? I don't consider the second crit-chance to be useful. Unless Eddie is attacking something that can't counter him at 1-range (archers), or is using a Wind Edge (er... Wind Edge has no crit and 6mt), doubling is never a factor.

EDIT: oh, I see what you meant, Eddie is countering on Enemy Phase. OK, I'll give you that.

Also, if I am seriously using Micaiah for crit-killing, it's with Shine or a forged Light. Thani is nice in a pinch, but has no innate crit on it. That gives her either +10 or +15 crit on top of her base plus her Bond.

The first point is true. The second and third points are a bit flimsy. Without WT, Eddie never really has a good chance at avoiding enemy attacks. I'm too lazy to pull up numbers right now but I'm fairly sure that Eddie never has a good chance at avoiding really anything, but in the case that the enemy does miss, I'm sure that evens out with Micaiah requiring 2-3 turns to put herself in Wrath range. As for getting hit hard enough, you can probably sandbag Eddie's level a little for that, since I recall when playing with earlier numbers that enemies leave him with HP in like the 30%s, though that brings up the question of Eddie being able to ORKO even with a crit. I'm sure he can, though, or if not we could just forge more MT for that purpose.

I'm sorry, but Micaiah only needs to lose 70% of her very poor HP to get into Wrath range. That's one hit on almost anyone. I'm also not sure that sandbagging Eddie's levels is a valid argument to give him Wrath over Micaiah. That smells to me of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

If Micaiah wins, I'm don't think it's by a significant margin. Whatever the case, Eddie needs Wrath more than Micaiah, as she doesn't give a damn about kill EXP and chipping in with Thani promotes the growth of everyone else on the team. Without Wrath, Eddie can't KO anything reliably.

Well, a unit's "wants" are secondary to the army's. Even if Micaiah killing something is appoximately as helpful in the long-term as Volug taking a kill, the point is that a dead enemy unit is a dead enemy unit. If Micaiah is using Wrath better than Eddie for clearing the game, that's a gold star in her column.

I suppose the point of that was that 2 viable units > 1 and Eddie wants Wrath if we're using him whereas Micaiah doesn't care either way.

I don't agree. Eddie is still "viable" without Wrath, the skill does not make him epic or anything.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Interceptor

[grandjackal]

"A person"? You mean a Pt1 enemy/Laguz/Cat/Tiger etc? Specify this, please.

Well I think having Eddie be level 11 by chapter 1-5 is a bit rediculous, but even then the weakest enemies (myrmidons) are 2RKOing him. 19 ATK-Eddie's 7 def=12, and he has 24 HP at that time. Enemies are ony getting stronger, he's getting 2RKOd throughout basically his entire career until part 4. Countering is cool and all, but when you're stuck with melee? 1 action a turn is one action a turn, and Leo doesn't need anywhere near as much healing as Eddie does to get a job done.

Leo has the same durability problem as Edward does on enemy phase. In fact since Leo gets Crossbow + Beastfoe he will actually kill more stuff and thus increasing his exposure more than Eddie does, who still has good chances to not kill an enemy by equiping a weak sword.

Now Eddie is not helping our mission in killing the required number of laguz. He has 17 MT at 14/1 with a bronze sword, not much higher otherwise. Hell, let's say he's 20/1. With a bronze sword, he's 6RKOing the weakest enemy on the map. This isn't helping him. He'll still need to land 2 strikes to kill after the fact with a stronger weapon. Leo just can just insta-blick an enemy, get traded out with the Lughnasahd, and wall just as well as Eddie does, granted they're at appropriate levels.

By the way? If we're sealing Eddie early, he's getting OHKOd by the 41 MT tigers, in case you were under the delusion that Eddie was durably better than Leo.

As well as Nolan and Aran. That leaves us with Jill, Ilyana and Leo, who are supposed to be better off (according to you) than Edward. All the other units either can't be sealed or get reyally screwed.

Illyana would definitely like a seal to suck less part 3 with the mercs, and Jill could do with a durability boost.

No but they fix the skl/spd/str that was skipped due to the early promotion.

By promoting he gets +2HP, +1Def and +2Res. Nothing spectacular but with still pretty good: Throw in a possible B-support with Leonardo around 1-6 and you have a nice durability boost right there... when he promotes he gets another +2HP, +1Def and +2Res. That's a +3 for Def and +2 for HP overall. At lvl 10 this brings him to 10Def, the same amount Nolan has at 14 (assuming Nolan doesn't support somebody with +def).

and 41 MT tigers still OHKO him.

Speaking of which, who the fuck said Leo supports with Eddie? Leo's got something Eddie doesn't, an offense boost. He could go to Michaiah for the +3 Str, he could go to Zihark who would like more might, Illyana for the defense boost and the magical offense boost, Volug because he's a hax motherfucker who would be fucknuts insane with a water boost.

If he promotes at lvl17 + B-support with Leo... he has:

32HP, 17Str, 21Skl, 21Spd, 13Def

A promoted Nolan has:

37.6HP, 18Str, 20Skl, 18Spd, 14Def

I'm not sure about Nolans support situation but that doesn't look bad. In Edward will probably be lvl17 before or at the same time Nolan promotes.

Not when you're pulling off being 2RKOd throughout the entirity of part 1. Hell, as said. Eddie actually has doubling problems part 1. Best explain how he got 13 levels in 10 chapters with few enemies.

No, not at all. Being able to perform better in actual combat than before helps him to make up for it.

Not when you're still being 2RKOd, even OHKOd by the 41 MT tigers.

1.) You don't have enough BExp to make a huge difference for Leo either.

2.) Assuming Eddie has a modest lvl 17 at the end of pt1 he has capped HP and Spd and most likely Spd as well. That means he will get str, def and lck boosts via Bexp

3.) Edward has better defensive stats than Leo, regardless.

1- It's easier for Leo to limit the exp he takes due to how the archer class is utilized.

2- 13 levels in 10 chapters with limited enemies with his durability is rediculous, and it doesn't stop him form being constantly 2RKOd part 3.

3- Not enough to pull an actual lead in part 3 regardless.

He reaches it at 17. By that time you can promote him and he won't be hindered by his cap anymore.

Oh, and Leo only has 29HP at 20/1 ... no bullshit cap needed to screw him.

Just a level of BEXP boosts it to 30, with which a C support with anyone he can survive a 41 MT tiger. 2 levels, doesn't even need a support. Durability is not a real issue for Leo part 3.

I didn't even say that Edward wants that stuff in pt3 in the first place. I was mainly referring to pt1. Zihark can do just fine without the Brave Sword in pt1 ... Killing Edge/Adept and his base stats are about enough.

Either way, why use the brave sword part 1 at all? It's a valuable weapon, we don't want to waste it as soon as we can here.

Cancel activation is based on spd. Eddie has better speed, thus he is morelikely to activate it. If you attack twice before the opponent can counter (Brave Sword effect) then you increase your chances even more.

All the more reason to give it and the brave sword to Zihark.

No Eddie makes better use of the Brave sword because ziharks performance won't improve much. He one rounds most opponents anyways with Killing Edge + Adept. Whether he uses a Brave Sword doesn't make a difference to him. In Eddies case it does make a major difference.

With Adept and Brave, Zihark can become an effective boss killer. Throw cancel on that bitch and there's no reason to ever give Eddie the brave sword.

[-Cynthia-]

^ Just a smal note, constantly bringing up 41 Atk tigers is misleading. There are ~19 39 Atk tigers, but only 2 41 Atk Tigers on 3-6, obviously avoiding OHKOs/2HKOS from 39 Atk is more important.

Edited June 30, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[grandjackal]

Either way their durability is generally the same, and Leo is a more effective unit mechanically.