OMG it's a tier list

[Vykan12]

Suffice it to say that someone wanted vika to go down

Actually someone wanted Rolf to drop below Vika. Colonel M I think.

[grandjackal]

Nah that was me, and it was a spurred thought I hadn't thought over too much. Apparently though, someone took it up.

[Progenitus]

Lower mid and low in general is a mess. There's a lot of changes that need to be made, but everytime a suggestion is made, it usually gets drowned in 50+ posts and then nothing comes out of it.

This is what I feel it should look like. The / means those units are relatively equal and I don't really care who's above who.

Lower Middle

Lehran

Rolf/Nealuchi/Lucia/Ena/Vika/Bastian/Oliver

Kurth/Gareth

Edward/Leo/Ilyana/Mak/Danved

Low

Sigrun/Renning

Kyza/Lethe/Pelleas

Stefan/Volke/Tormod/Nasir should be in middle.

Calill should also move down into lower mid. Probably with Kurth/Gareth or something.

Edited July 1, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Narga_Rocks]

Actually someone wanted Rolf to drop below Vika. Colonel M I think.

Really? I guess I wasn't paying much attention then either.

Whether Rolf needs to drop or not I don't think he is worthy of Low tier. He's not good, obviously, because of his early game and the fact that even in endgame he is less durable than Shinon even though he is stronger, but given how powerful he is at endgame and how easy it is for the GMs to protect someone I think Lower Middle is as good a spot as any.

Also I'm not sure about taking Vika out of Low. I think she's pretty useful in part 1, but I don't know if that is enough to get her out of Low. But 3 chapters of being pretty good is more than most in her spot on the list can say, so whatever.

Edited July 1, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Colonel M]

Yeah, I mentioned it due to Vika's being more helpful to the DB in comparison to Rofl in the GMercs. It was actually advised for Wolf to do it, but meh.

Edited July 1, 2009 by Colonel M

[Progenitus]

Whether Rolf needs to drop or not I don't think he is worthy of Low tier. He's not good, obviously, because of his early game and the fact that even in endgame he is less durable than Shinon even though he is stronger, but given how powerful he is at endgame and how easy it is for the GMs to protect someone I think Lower Middle is as good a spot as any.

Indeed. Rolf starts off awful, but he DOES end up with nice offense. You'll have to throw him an early crown though. But that's certainly not low tier material.

Also I'm not sure about taking Vika out of Low. I think she's pretty useful in part 1, but I don't know if that is enough to get her out of Low. But 3 chapters of being pretty good is more than most in her spot on the list can say, so whatever.

Indeed. Compare her to the other units I feel should only be in low, whose peak performances are simply being average (or if they're above average it's at the cost of resources, such as Pelleas healing requires a crown), and she's certainly superior.

But if the argument is Rolf vs Vika, I'm not sure. I'm going to stay out of it for now until I learn more about the matchup.

[Narga_Rocks]

Smash, about your other changes:

Lehran is extremely helpful in his one chapter and recruiting him shouldn't count against him if that is what is holding him down. I'm not sure if being that good in one chapter is enough to put him over some of the people you have him over, but he does significanly speed up the chapter now that we don't have to care as much about nihil before attacking auras, and we don't have to carry 3 or more uses of fortify into 4-E-5 if we don't want to, so I guess you could argue he is one of the few characters who actually has positive utility even before he shows up. I don't know how far someone could get with that argument, but I know I won't be the one trying.

As for Ilyana, she is something unique as far as mages are concerned. Decently leveled she is like the only mage who is 3HKOd instead of 2HKOd which gives slightly more options for her than any other mage gets. Plus, although she has a fair amount less offense than Soren (there's a reason she's below him), it isn't as hard to get her kills as Rolf or Mist. At least I don't think it is, I could be wrong. I don't know if that's enough to put her above the people you grouped her with, but in case anyone thinks she should be below them I think her uniqueness is something to consider.

Sigrun has a fair amount of utility even if she never attacks anything. In 3-11 there is the obvious pitfalls and airdropping, which we don't want Haar to waste time on and Tanith can't do it alone. In 3-E she is again forced and since there is a large number of enemies up the middle and a bolting sage, she can be used so that a unit with low durability can attack stuff on player phase and then be flown out. In 4-P, she likely can't leverage what she can in 3-E so oh well. In 4-3 she moves better than anything but the enemy dragonmasters so she can do the same thing as in 3-E (helps Sanaki bring an enemy down to OHKO range for someone else and not die on enemy phase, for example) and also cart Sothe around picking stuff up. That's a fair amount of things that Renning isn't doing while sitting outside of the tower hoping your 10 good people plus the forced units can save the world. Heck, this might even be better than Danved and Mak, but I mostly want her to stay above Renning, and she is already above Mak, oops, I meant Danved. <- edit

I think Vykan suggested Lethe>Pelleas>Kyza, but since you said you don't care who's above who for them I guess you're not necessarily disagreeing.

Is 2 chapters enough for Nasir to get to middle? He helps a lot in 4-E-5 and speeds it up considerably, and Ashera is rather annoying as long as she's alive. But what is he doing in 4-E-4? The people you brought should either have brave weapons or 34 speed and so don't need Nasir's help vs. spirits, and Sephiran is only one unit that can be killed without doubling if you use a couple extra units, or even Giffca with parity and no Nasir. (Or even Tibarn or Nailah if you can get either to 20 str). I'm not saying we will be using even one of these units, but the point is Nasir does not cause a significant improvement in 4-E-4. He does in 4-E-5, though. Maybe Nasir should be at the top of Lower Middle or something? At least if we put Lehran where you are suggesting.

I don't much care about the rest of your changes. I disagree on Stefan and Volke but don't really care much. RNG proofness should be worth something, I suppose. Stefan>Volke, though, not equal, regardless of where they end up. I guess since Volke > Stefan currently I should say why it should change, but I don't care enough.

And I think Vika vs. Rolf would be a very difficult debate for people to do and have it make any sense. It would be rather subjective and focusing on early game vs. late game which some people favour one over the other. I think I'd rather just let other people argue about it and then come in and point out flaws in their points, I'm here for fun afterall, not work. And Rolf most certainly needs a crown at level 15 or 17 or paragon for a chapter or something. Otherwise I have no idea what level he'd get to part 4 at. On NM it is simple enough to get him to 20/1 for 4-1/2, but I never bothered raising him on HM.

edit: Anyone notice how in the chapter data section it says sigrun is forced in 3-F (it uses F not E), but in the availability list it doesn't? I'm pretty sure she was forced, though.

Oh, I missed your thing about Calill. At worst, she should be one below Soren. She needs paragon a bit but with it she can do something Soren will never do and even paragon won't help him with it. I'm not saying that it balances how far she needs to go to catch up, that's why I'm okay with Soren > Calill, but Calill < Bastian?

Edited July 1, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

If Tormod is climbing to mid, so is Lucia. Both are good in a couple of chapters/godly in one chapter, and both have fixable endgames (though Tormod will need a lot more resources). Otherwise, lower mid is fine for him.

[Progenitus]

As for Ilyana, she is something unique as far as mages are concerned. Decently leveled she is like the only mage who is 3HKOd instead of 2HKOd which gives slightly more options for her than any other mage gets. Plus, although she has a fair amount less offense than Soren (there's a reason she's below him), it isn't as hard to get her kills as Rolf or Mist. At least I don't think it is, I could be wrong. I don't know if that's enough to put her above the people you grouped her with, but in case anyone thinks she should be below them I think her uniqueness is something to consider.

The issue is that it takes a ton of babying and she won't be avoiding the 2HKO long enough for it to matter.

She's absorbing the DB's exp in part 1 where they already are starved for exp, and ends up in part 3 at like 20/1 where she's just awful. Like, 3-4HKOs with a max mt fire tome and doesn't double and gets 2HKO'd in return and is in danger of getting doubled by stuff like warriors and is easily doubled by swordmasters.

Rolf is certainly not harder to feed kills to than Ilyana is either, considering he quickly wins offense. His str is going to be about the same as Ilyana's mag in 3-2, but his pow growth is significantly higher. He can also eventually double the slow enemies, and in part 4 if we crown him after he caps his 2nd tier spd he'll even start doubling the faster enemies.

Mist doesn't even need to be fed kills since she can just use staves for exp, and in fact her stats don't matter terribly much in the first place since she's not even fighting anyway, so we're in no rush to feed kills to her.

Ilyana is awful outside of part 1, especially in part 3. Like "I have issues being better than Lyre" awful. Her part 4/tier 3 performance isn't coming close to overriding how bad she is in part 3, especially if her only benefit over my other sages at this point of the game is "I can take an extra hit, even though I'd be losing avoid". The reason why I'd put her that high is because she's not bad for her first few chapters in part 1.

Sigrun has a fair amount of utility even if she never attacks anything. In 3-11 there is the obvious pitfalls and airdropping, which we don't want Haar to waste time on and Tanith can't do it alone. In 3-E she is again forced and since there is a large number of enemies up the middle and a bolting sage, she can be used so that a unit with low durability can attack stuff on player phase and then be flown out. In 4-P, she likely can't leverage what she can in 3-E so oh well. In 4-3 she moves better than anything but the enemy dragonmasters so she can do the same thing as in 3-E (helps Sanaki bring an enemy down to OHKO range for someone else and not die on enemy phase, for example) and also cart Sothe around picking stuff up. That's a fair amount of things that Renning isn't doing while sitting outside of the tower hoping your 10 good people plus the forced units can save the world. Heck, this might even be better than Danved and Mak, but I mostly want her to stay above Renning, and she is already above Mak. I think Vykan suggested Lethe>Pelleas>Kyza, but since you said you don't care who's above who for them I guess your not necessarily disagreeing.

We have other fliers like Janaff and Ulki to also plug up holes. We could even field Marcia to do it (although since there aren't many unit slots open for 3-11 that isn't as viable). This gives up one other flier forced into the chapter, plus three others that are very good and are likely to be fielded anyway, and one other that we *could* deploy just for potholes. Sigrun isn't all that special.

And why wouldn't Haar be clogging up potholes? Most of the potholes are at chokepoints, so Haar can just fly on it, tank stuff on enemy phase, and then let people pass through.

3-E she's forced, but we have lots of unit slots now so that doesn't give her an automatic pass to being useful in the chapter, plus since it's a pretty short chapter she may not even end up doing anything (only 80 units have to die no matter who they are, and with skrimir and tibarn and the allies raping stuff, you can finish this in like 4-5 turns).

The big problem is taht Sigrun is just terrible at fighting. She can't double, she hits for awful damage, and she dies in like 2-3 hits and her avoid is bad.

Renning is significantly better than Sigrun in 4-E, and if we aren't going to throw her into 4-E, well then it'd be Renning vs empty slot, where Renning is still better anyway since he isn't THAT bad to the point where not using him is better than using him. With an SS-sword in hand he'll have at least 30 def, and 23 res isn't too bad either. His offense could use a lot of help though, but he also has canto, and with all the uber tiles and dragon tide skills around, canto is nice, so overall he's at least passable.

Mak and Danved are also > Sigrun because they're in CRK chapters, who are ridiculously undermanned to the point that everyone has a purpose (except Astrid). I'd definitely put that above flying utility when it can be replaced by other possible flying units. And if we train them they actually have some semblance of potential because they don't have the worst growth spread in the game.

Is 2 chapters enough for Nasir to get to middle? He helps a lot in 4-E-5 and speeds it up considerably, and Ashera is rather annoying as long as she's alive. But what is he doing in 4-E-4? The people you brought should either have brave weapons or 34 speed and so don't need Nasir's help vs. spirits, and Sephiran is only one unit that can be killed without doubling if you use a couple extra units, or even Giffca with parity and no Nasir. (Or even Tibarn or Nailah if you can get either to 20 str). I'm not saying we will be using even one of these units, but the point is Nasir does not cause a significant improvement in 4-E-4. He does in 4-E-5, though. Maybe Nasir should be at the top of Lower Middle or something? At least if we put Lehran where you are suggesting.

Why would our units be using brave weapons in 4-E-4? Do we like sitting ducks on enemy phase since they're not going to be countering anything? Nasir lets my guys double with 1-2 range weapons which means every spirit that moves on enemy phase is going to die. And there are not many beorcs with 34+ spd who are doubling spirits.

I'd like to liken Nasir to herons. He makes units that don't double suddenly do, which effectively doubles their offense, almost as if a heron chanted that unit to let them attack twice. Of course he's only in two chapters so taht's why he's a lot lower than them.

If Tormod is climbing to mid, so is Lucia. Both are good in a couple of chapters/godly in one chapter, and both have fixable endgames (though Tormod will need a lot more resources). Otherwise, lower mid is fine for him.

how is lucia "godly" in 2-2? her offense is good, but her durability is shaky since she's getting 3-4HKO'd at 40ish hit rates and since we have no staff user, everyone has to do their own healing. By saying she's "godly", you're implying that she's a step up from the other good units in 2-2, which is not the case, since Mordy/Nealuchi stomp on her durability and mobility (Nealuchi even has canto) at the expense of offense and grass. Even Brom gives Lucia a run for her money, since he also has a ton of durability, although loses offense/move. She's good, but not "godly".

Not to mention that 2-2 is fairly short. Tormod's 1-8 alone is like the same length as 2-2.

Oh, I missed your thing about Calill. At worst, she should be one below Soren. She needs paragon a bit but with it she can do something Soren will never do and even paragon won't help him with it. I'm not saying that it balances how far she needs to go to catch up, that's why I'm okay with Soren > Calill, but Calill < Bastian?

Soren can BEXP and then master crown once he caps spd, or just keep BEXP abusing for more HP/def.

And "a bit"? Calill needs paragon for several chapters in a row, because that's how underleveled she's going to be. Like, 20/10 at 3-11 at best when your other GMs are nearing promotion or are already promoted.

This is about the same amount of favoritism if you ask me.

As for Calill vs Bastian, I'd argue that Bastian's 4-E is better than Calill's CRK chapters. For Calill to be better, she'd have to be better than Bastian at 4-E, but to do that she requires a lot of babying.

man, i made a lot of edits wtf

Edited July 1, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Narga_Rocks]

The issue is that it takes a ton of babying and she won't be avoiding the 2HKO long enough for it to matter.

She's absorbing the DB's exp in part 1 where they already are starved for exp, and ends up in part 3 at like 20/1 where she's just awful. Like, 3-4HKOs with a max mt fire tome and doesn't double and gets 2HKO'd in return and is in danger of getting doubled by stuff like warriors and is easily doubled by swordmasters.

Rolf is certainly not harder to feed kills to than Ilyana is either, considering he quickly wins offense. His str is going to be about the same as Ilyana's mag in 3-2, but his pow growth is significantly higher. He can also eventually double the slow enemies, and in part 4 if we crown him after he caps his 2nd tier spd he'll even start doubling the faster enemies.

Mist doesn't even need to be fed kills since she can just use staves for exp, and in fact her stats don't matter terribly much in the first place since she's not even fighting anyway, so we're in no rush to feed kills to her.

Ilyana is awful outside of part 1, especially in part 3. Like "I have issues being better than Lyre" awful. Her part 4/tier 3 performance isn't coming close to overriding how bad she is in part 3, especially if her only benefit over my other sages at this point of the game is "I can take an extra hit, even though I'd be losing avoid". The reason why I'd put her that high is because she's not bad for her first few chapters in part 1.

Okay, by the middle of part 3 Rolf should do more damage and it is easier to feed him kills, but she doesn't need to be protected any more than Mist or Soren or Rhys do anyway. And Rolf>Ilyana for a reason because as you said he will start doubling eventually. Ilyana will likely only ever double Tigers and Dragons without being blessed, and only Generals even if. And Mist does need some kills unless she uses physic a bunch (need to disarm steal for enough physics to matter). Otherwise she misses out on the only thing she has over rhys, not being ORKOd, which is good for when it just isn't possible to mend and not be attacked on enemy phase. And with enough levels she can face two attacks on enemy phase and be safe from snipers critting her. I'm just saying it is worth giving Mist kills and Ilyana has an easier time of it. And losing avoid to Soren and company only means that she needs to be healed every time she takes two hits unless we don't let her get attacked anymore. Soren still needs to be healed most times he gets attacked and Ilyana only needs healing if she gets attacked by more than one anyway. I'm not saying send a Sage against 3 enemies or more, then avo matters, but after promotion she is guaranteed to live vs. 2 enemies, which is more than the other Sages can say. I wish I could say her luck "lead" matters, but since Soren will outlevel her all it means is she won't have less than him, oh well. Still, I think that is at least > Kurth, since Night Tide isn't that great and his offense is likely worse than hers if you raised her. Heck, since he gets doubled and she doesn't he even loses to her in durability, both concrete and avo. Give Ilyana an A support, and 20/5 for endgame: 45 HP and 22 Def and 25 speed and 25 res (but likely at least 1 more def from bexp at some point she was close to a level up in part 3), doubled by nothing in 4-E-1. Kurth has 55 HP and 30 Def and 30 Res and gets doubled by either everything or everything but sages, not sure. Ilyana is 3HKOd by anything under 45 mt and Kurth is 2RKOd by 44 might. It's close, but he isn't winning until Ilyana is 3HKOd by 39 mt and Kurth is 4RKOd by 39 mt. And anything above 43 might is a win for Ilyana or a tie anyway. The point is, unless her part 3 is so bad or Night Tide is so good, how is Kurth better? Is not being attacked in 4-E-3 and being an extra wall that much better? Ilyana can double with respectable might with a blessed range tome or awesome might with a blessed bolting. Just like any other Sage, sure, but she can do it with the other Sage and Kurth takes a while to kill dragons.

I'm not looking for much, just leaving Ilyana > Kurth.

We have other fliers like Janaff and Ulki to also plug up holes. We could even field Marcia to do it (although since there aren't many unit slots open for 3-11 that isn't as viable). This gives up one other flier forced into the chapter, plus three others that are very good and are likely to be fielded anyway, and one other that we *could* deploy just for potholes. Sigrun isn't all that special.

And why wouldn't Haar be clogging up potholes? Most of the potholes are at chokepoints, so Haar can just fly on it, tank stuff on enemy phase, and then let people pass through.

3-E she's forced, but we have lots of unit slots now so that doesn't give her an automatic pass to being useful in the chapter, plus since it's a pretty short chapter she may not even end up doing anything (only 80 units have to die no matter who they are, and with skrimir and tibarn and the allies raping stuff, you can finish this in like 4-5 turns).

The big problem is taht Sigrun is just terrible at fighting. She can't double, she hits for awful damage, and she dies in like 2-3 hits and her avoid is bad.

Renning is significantly better than Sigrun in 4-E, and if we aren't going to throw her into 4-E, well then it'd be Renning vs empty slot, where Renning is still better anyway since he isn't THAT bad to the point where not using him is better than using him. With an SS-sword in hand he'll have at least 30 def, and 23 res isn't too bad either. His offense could use a lot of help though, but he also has canto, and with all the uber tiles and dragon tide skills around, canto is nice, so overall he's at least passable.

Mak and Danved are also > Sigrun because they're in CRK chapters, who are ridiculously undermanned to the point that everyone has a purpose (except Astrid).

I don't really expect Sigrun to fight. But I expect our other flyers that aren't named Tanith to fight. Haar can't kill everything on enemy phase when he can't double, so if he is not doubling then I expect he will have to kill things to clear space on player phase and then move forward. That's when Sigrun fills in the void. All the other flyers you bring except Tanith can actually fight and won't always be able to block pitfalls. The point is that aside from airdrops Sigrun isn't doing anything else. And why do we want Skrimir and Tibarn to kill everything? We have lots of units that are close to promotion or just came from the CRK and we want someone with Canto and 34 speed that can use the wishblade or something. The more things our team kills, the better our team will be in part 4. Even your Soren can run straight into enemies, kill something somebody else weakened to get more experience, then be picked up and carried away. If we are bringing the hawks or Haar or Titania or Oscar or something, they can't pick someone up and attack stuff on the same turn. Sigrun saves Soren and lets your other Canto people fight. And since Tanith and Marcia aren't forced and there are only 9 unit spots they are likely either not coming or coming to fight. I'm just saying Sigrun gives options to the player s/he wouldn't have otherwise, and good ones. Same in 4-3, only now she doesn't have to run as far away and we don't have to set up a wall or anything because now enemy move sucks. But I guess since you put her above Lethe/Kyza/Pelleas that might be the best I can get her to in your eyes, so since this paragraph is all I can come up with for her if none of it works then I give.

Why would our units be using brave weapons in 4-E-4? Do we like sitting ducks on enemy phase since they're not going to be countering anything? Nasir lets my guys double with 1-2 range weapons which means every spirit that moves on enemy phase is going to die. And there are not many beorcs with 34+ spd who are doubling spirits.

The spirits tend to attack things that don't ORKO them anyway, so unless you only field people that can ORKO the spirits even on cover tiles I don't see how it helps. Most of the killing happens on player phase otherwise and for that braves are good, especially once you have killed all the spirits that move. And we have tons of people with 34 speed that we can bring, they just don't tend to have the strength to ORKO the spirits when they are on cover tiles. But I'll give you that Nasir helps, I just don't think he is as awesome in 4-E-4 as in 4-E-5. And I'm sure it was just a typo but in case it wasn't all beorcs with 34 speed are doubling spirits, considering spirits top out at 30 speed. Nasir can't be everywhere in 4-E-4 and might only help with 2 or 3 spirits and that's only if you don't have someone trade out the brave weapons. Anyway, how about the bottom of mid if you don't like top of lower mid?

Soren can BEXP and then master crown once he caps spd, or just keep BEXP abusing for more HP/def.

Notice I wasn't saying better than Soren, and he starts tier 3 at 25 speed anyway and then can't even bexp it until --/??/16 so he needs paragon if he wants to even have 30 speed (--/??/15) to double generals in 4-E-1, well, he can double some 25 speed armors at --/??/13 and 24 speed armors at --/??/9 or 10, but there aren't many 24 speed armors anyway. Without a speedwing (in tier 3, mind you, so he sat on it since 3-11 at least, unless he crowns in 3-11, which I guess could work) I don't even imagine him doubling very many armors. He is never doubling Warriors, and needs 32 speed (--/??/20 without tier 3 bexp gives 31.65) to double snipers, and if he was --/??/16 at the end of 4-E-1 then he could probably bexp to 31 speed to double halbs in 4-E-2, but still.

The point is that Calill needs --/19/7 to achieve the 30 speed that Soren gets at --/??/15, so an 8 level difference doesn't seem so bad, and if Soren crowns early he is getting less exp until part 4 starts so I don't think the early crown turns it into an effective 9 or 10 level difference. The 25 speed Soren has in 3-11 doesn't even let him double all the warriors and halbs anyway, and even fewer in 3-E unless he gets 2 or 3 levels in 3-11 while enjoying a ~6 level difference on average, or took the speedwing from 3-9.

Remember, my point is not that Calill>Soren, just that Calill is really rather close, and certainly better offensively than Bastian. And she doubles Auras w/ Nasir where others don't. Doubling Deg for 0 damage doesn't help though, so her speed is not relevant there, I'll give you. But seriously, if she comes to endgame and has paragon for even one chapter, how is she not reaching --/20/11, enough for doubling auras? Paragon in one chapter in part 4 would fix it, and while that is favouritism it is arguably equal to what we need to give Soren, especially since Soren already needs paragon or a speedwing to double in Endgame. And then consider that 24 speed is only doubling Dragons and she certainly has more offense than Bastian even if we only get her to double Generals, which is easy with Rexflame even if we can't get a mere 30 speed (the speed to double all but two generals in 4-E-1, ie: 27 speed with Rexflame getting her to 30 anyway).

To your last edit:

careful smash, any more edits and you'll be like me with that. You did the same thing two of your posts ago.

Edited July 1, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Mekkah]

If Tormod is climbing to mid, so is Lucia. Both are good in a couple of chapters/godly in one chapter, and both have fixable endgames (though Tormod will need a lot more resources). Otherwise, lower mid is fine for him.

3 chapters >>> 1 chapter, obviously.

[-Cynthia-]

3 chapters >>> 1 chapter, obviously.

Tormod isn't really the best unit in those 3 chapters though, he's got Muarim/Nailah/BK on his team and is pretty comarable to Sothe/Zihark/Volug. Tormod's part 1> Lucia's part 2 though, I'll concede that.

However, Lucia is going to show up a lot more prepared for part 4. Lucia has an 8 level lead, an extra chapter in Part 4, the more desirable route (more authority stars, less enemy swarm, laguz give great exp), and the better Endgame class. She beats Tormod for a greater period of the game than he beats her. And for what it's worth, Earth>Fire.

Edited July 1, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[dondon151]

We have other fliers like Janaff and Ulki to also plug up holes. We could even field Marcia to do it (although since there aren't many unit slots open for 3-11 that isn't as viable). This gives up one other flier forced into the chapter, plus three others that are very good and are likely to be fielded anyway, and one other that we *could* deploy just for potholes. Sigrun isn't all that special.

And why wouldn't Haar be clogging up potholes? Most of the potholes are at chokepoints, so Haar can just fly on it, tank stuff on enemy phase, and then let people pass through.

Haar/Janaff/Ulki could also just attack + canto into a pothole. Honestly the best use I've had for Sigrun in this chapter is rescuing Leanne from onagers =/

how is lucia "godly" in 2-2? her offense is good, but her durability is shaky since she's getting 3-4HKO'd at 40ish hit rates and since we have no staff user, everyone has to do their own healing. By saying she's "godly", you're implying that she's a step up from the other good units in 2-2, which is not the case, since Mordy/Nealuchi stomp on her durability and mobility (Nealuchi even has canto) at the expense of offense and grass. Even Brom gives Lucia a run for her money, since he also has a ton of durability, although loses offense/move. She's good, but not "godly".

3-4HKO'd at 40 hit rates is pretty good. She's facing like 3 attacks max at any point in this chapter, so it's safe to say that Lucia's not dying - her durability disadvantage isn't as significant. Tormod is 3RKO'd at rather scary hit rates and I think some enemies in 1-E might scrape a 2RKO.

Mordy/Nealuchi's transformation problems are rather pronounced in this chapter; 4 uses of Olivi Grass just so both can transform, 4 more uses total for the whole chapter with 2-E to consider, and then both of them sticking close just to trade the grass. They also won't have offense on turn 1 unless Leanne vigors them both.

Unlike the laguz or Brom, Lucia has a Wind Edge to counter the 1-2 range enemies that lurk on the southern path, so that's another point.

I also recall Lucia having 2 leadership stars, and I don't see why the player units wouldn't be affiliated under her for that one chapter.

Soren can BEXP and then master crown once he caps spd, or just keep BEXP abusing for more HP/def.

And "a bit"? Calill needs paragon for several chapters in a row, because that's how underleveled she's going to be. Like, 20/10 at 3-11 at best when your other GMs are nearing promotion or are already promoted.

This is about the same amount of favoritism if you ask me.

In addition to this, I can't possibly fathom how Calill's victory in the last 3 parts of 4-E trumps Soren's far superior availability over which he amasses positive utility just by being there and not being both a total offensive and defensive failure.

Edited July 1, 2009 by dondon151

[-Cynthia-]

In addition to this, I can't possibly fathom how Calill's victory in the last 3 parts of 4-E trumps Soren's far superior availability over which he amasses positive utility just by being there and not being both a total offensive and defensive failure.

I just want to note that Soren does take up one of the GMs deployment slots, which can be an issue because Soren isn't one of the better GM's, especially defensively, only Mist and Rhys are worse. His offense isn't terrible, but due to not doubling it isn't especially good either, he's mostly 3RKOing on a team that doesn't have problems 2RKOing. I guess you could argue Soren has "positive utility" but then we have to give people like Edward positive utility from 1-6 onward as well, he does better relative to his team than Soren does.

Soren's availability does help him gain a level lead over Calill, though this is somewhat balanced out by the fact that Calill has things like Spd growth (55% compared to 35%), so she can double in Part 4 while Soren can't, and alsoRexflame to double auras. She might be a little high overall though.

Edited July 1, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[dondon151]

I just want to note that Soren does take up one of the GMs deployment slots, which can be an issue because Soren isn't one of the better GM's, especially defensively, only Mist and Rhys are worse.

I argued before that considering opportunity cost of unit deployment is rather dumb (because unit deployment is a conscious decision and factoring in opportunity cost results in negative economic profit for so many characters), but whatever.

Soren's availability does help him gain a level lead over Calill, though this is somewhat balanced out by the fact that Calill has things like Spd growth (55% compared to 35%), so she can double in Part 4 while Soren can't, and alsoRexflame to double auras. She might be a little high overall though.

Soren gets the benefit of BEXP + possible crown while Calill gets at best a chapter of Paragon that nowhere near makes up for Soren's gigantic level lead that mitigates Calill's superior speed growth.

The importance of doubling auras is incredibly trivial. It has about the same weight as a unit being good against a certain boss, IMO. It would be like giving FE9 Ike super bonus points for killing Ashnard.

Edited July 1, 2009 by dondon151

[Vykan12]

Before anyone does anything with Rolf, it needs to be established what his performance is like in part 4.

Now Rolf's saving grace is his massive 75% str growth. Basically, once he gets to doubling, he's even more effective than Shinon for player phase offence. Going by Smash's suggestion, we'll crown him, with --/15 being a good choice since that's when he caps str on average.

Rolf lv --/15/1 (A fire): 48 hp, 27 AS, 20 def, 16 res, 95 avo

Silencer: 47 atk, 29 crit

Killer bow: 39 atk, 59 crit

First off, that atk is monstrous to the point where he can borderline ORKO some of the 4-1 generals. His AS is a bit more of an issue since a lot of 4-1 enemies have 24 AS, but that’s a problem easily resolved with either a different route choice or gaining 2 levels within the chapter.

It’s also worth looking at his skill activation percentages.

Silencer, 1 hit: 39%

Silencer, 2 hits: 63%

Killer bow, 1 hit: 65%

Killer bow, 2 hits: 88%

Those can go even higher with bond supports. For instance, the last example would jump to 93% with a single bond.

There’s also the brave bow to consider. We acquire this item in 3-6 with no one but lolLeo to use it, so Rolf can use this to offset whatever doubling woes he might encounter in part 4. Shinon might want to use it too, but then they have a bond so trading it between them wouldn’t be a bad idea.

Rolf isn’t half bad on the durability end either. Again, going by 4-1 enemies, he’s usually 3-4HKOed, which means having him exposed to an enemy by accident or using a takche on enemy phase isn’t exactly suicide. The fact that Rolf can attack on player phase uncountered obviously contributes as well.

Sure, he has a bad part 3 and the oh-so-emphasized lack of enemy phase, but I think there’s enough going for him to keep him in mid or at least top of lower-mid.

[Progenitus]

And Mist does need some kills unless she uses physic a bunch (need to disarm steal for enough physics to matter). Otherwise she misses out on the only thing she has over rhys, not being ORKOd, which is good for when it just isn't possible to mend and not be attacked on enemy phase. And with enough levels she can face two attacks on enemy phase and be safe from snipers critting her. I'm just saying it is worth giving Mist kills and Ilyana has an easier time of it.

She doesn't need that many levels to stop getting one rounded by a majority of enemies. By 20/5, she already has 17 spd, which means the stuff like halbs and warriors have issues doubling, and with 29-30 HP and 8 def along with a support she can usually avoid getting OHKO'd by the higher att enemies. And since she has a 50% spd growth, she can gain levels at a relatively slow rate and still avoid getting doubled.

I find it very questionable if she'll ever survive 2 attacks though without babying that extends beyond "let's feed her kills", since her raw HP/def are actually worse than Soren's, and the only reason why she wins concrete durability is because of her water affinity.

But if being able to survive 2 attacks instead of 1 is the reason why I want to be feeding kills to Mist, it's obviously not worth it, considering how difficult it is for Mist to even do double digit damage to enemies.

And losing avoid to Soren and company only means that she needs to be healed every time she takes two hits unless we don't let her get attacked anymore. Soren still needs to be healed most times he gets attacked and Ilyana only needs healing if she gets attacked by more than one anyway. I'm not saying send a Sage against 3 enemies or more, then avo matters, but after promotion she is guaranteed to live vs. 2 enemies, which is more than the other Sages can say. I wish I could say her luck "lead" matters, but since Soren will outlevel her all it means is she won't have less than him, oh well.

The whole point of the avoid was that it lessens Ilyana's durability lead, which is the only thing she has going for her over the other sages in part 4.

The point is, unless her part 3 is so bad or Night Tide is so good, how is Kurth better?

She IS bad. You are seriously underestimating her part 3.

20/3 Ilyana, max mt fire tome

28.0 att, 17.0 AS, 128.0 hit, 14.5 crit - - 44.0 avo, 29.5 HP, 9.0 def, 15.0 res, 10.0 critavo - - 6 move

Base level Lyre

22.0 att, 22.0 AS, 150.0 hit, 11.0 crit - - 60.0 avo, 47.0 HP, 14.0 def, 16.0 res, 16.0 critavo - - 9 move

Authority stars were ignored.

So I give Ilyana over 10 levels, a lot of which came from the DB, which is EXP they no longer have but desperately want, which sux for the DB because they actually want every fighter they can get and with this exp sink into Ilyana they lose out on someone, and this is all I get.

This is pretty bad when you're not significantly better than Lyre.

And if we go a step up, like Kyza.

Base level Kyza

30.0 att, 22.0 AS, 144.0 hit, 10.0 crit - - 58.0 avo, 55.0 HP, 20.0 def, 10.0 res, 14.0 critavo

Kyza steamrolls Ilyana even factoring in the transformation gauge. And Kyza is like one of the worst GMs ever.

Ilyana gains levels faster, but her growths are horrible. 50% mag, 30% spd, 30% def, 100% avoid. Kyza has 40% str, 35% spd, 40% def, 120% avoid before transformations, so technically it's 80% str, 70% spd, 80% def, 190% avoid. This even means pumping up Ilyana's level a bit for these comparisons will barely do anything because her growth spread is lame.

Ilyana's part 3 is so bad, it's almost like "what if Rhys couldn't heal?"

Ilyana would have to be, like, capable of soloing half of 4-E to even cancel this ridiculous amount of babying. Her 4-E performance lead over Kurth is not worth it. Remember that Kurth doesn't even take up a deployment slot in 4-E.

However, her part 1 is okay (her first few chapters anyway), and Kurth's 4-E isn't really that good. I still don't see Ilyana > Kurth, but I suppose Ilyana/edward/co. could move up to the same score as Kurth/Gareth.

And why do we want Skrimir and Tibarn to kill everything?

The problem isn't that we WANT to let Skrimir and Tibarn kill everything. It's that we can't STOP them from killing crap.

If we are bringing the hawks or Haar or Titania or Oscar or something, they can't pick someone up and attack stuff on the same turn. Sigrun saves Soren and lets your other Canto people fight. And since Tanith and Marcia aren't forced and there are only 9 unit spots they are likely either not coming or coming to fight. I'm just saying Sigrun gives options to the player s/he wouldn't have otherwise, and good ones.

That's assuming we're training ALL of them. Granted, they are good, but that's a big assumption, which means we will have a few fliers available to do ferrying.

And 9 unit slots is quite a lot. We're probably only training like 7 GMs or so seriously, one of them being Ike. I can afford to have a unit slot for Marcia/Tanith to do ferrying. And rescuing isn't even that useful, since the unit you rescue will lose their next turn (unless you use another unit with sigrun to take the unit and then drop, but that's still two units to rescue one).

You could even just give savior, and they can do ferrying whenever they don't end up attacking something.

Same in 4-3, only now she doesn't have to run as far away and we don't have to set up a wall or anything because now enemy move sucks.

We still have other fliers around to do the job, but we have even more empty unit slots.

But I guess since you put her above Lethe/Kyza/Pelleas that might be the best I can get her to in your eyes, so since this paragraph is all I can come up with for her if none of it works then I give.

The problem is that her utility can easily be replaced by other units. Mak and Danved can't, really, because the CRK chapters in general have so few units, that you'd notice if one suddenly disappeared (aka that unit has some positive utility).

And again, if we train them they actually can get semi-decent part 4 performances, or at least a lot better than Sigrun. Her stats are so bad, Mak and Danved have comparable stats at 2nd tier to what Sigrun has at 20/20/1, and by the time they are third tier they're pretty much always going to beat her.

Like, if Mak was 20/20/1, these are the levels Sigrun needs to be to match/beat his corresponding stats.

HP: never

str: ~20/20/10

spd: 20/20/4

def: never

For Danved

HP: never

str: ~20/20/5

spd: ~20/20/8

def: 20/20/1

She generally has more mag/skl/lck/res, except those stats are largely useless.

And this really sucks for Sigrun because both have significantly better growth rates other than str which they lose by just 5.

The spirits tend to attack things that don't ORKO them anyway, so unless you only field people that can ORKO the spirits even on cover tiles I don't see how it helps. Most of the killing happens on player phase otherwise and for that braves are good, especially once you have killed all the spirits that move.

Don't ORKO them... like guys who are stuck with brave weapons and can't counter?

If you have units that can't one round why would you even field them or not stick them next to Nasir?

And have you determined which spirits move and which don't?

And we have tons of people with 34 speed that we can bring, they just don't tend to have the strength to ORKO the spirits when they are on cover tiles. But I'll give you that Nasir helps, I just don't think he is as awesome in 4-E-4 as in 4-E-5. And I'm sure it was just a typo but in case it wasn't all beorcs with 34 speed are doubling spirits, considering spirits top out at 30 speed. Nasir can't be everywhere in 4-E-4 and might only help with 2 or 3 spirits and that's only if you don't have someone trade out the brave weapons. Anyway, how about the bottom of mid if you don't like top of lower mid?

My sentence was worded awkwardly, sorry. I meant "we don't have many beorcs that have 34+ spd".

And I thought I said Nasir should be in bottom of mid?

too tired to comment on soren vs calill thoroughly

Going by Smash's suggestion, we'll crown him, with --/15 being a good choice since that's when he caps str on average.

Personally I'd crown him after he caps spd. It's not like Rolf will mind sitting at his str cap for a few levels since his growth is huge.

I think the big factor in deciding whether he's mid or lower mid is how much weight you'd give a crown.

Consider that there are many units who really want a crown to be doubling the faster enemies in part 4 (the first that come to mind are Gatrie, Nolan, Jill, and Oscar). Even a guy like Zihark wouldn't mind a crown if one's free, since it's not like he loses that much str from early crown because his growth sucks anyway (well, unless you BEXP abuse him, but he's going to cap ram anyway), and he doesn't care if he loses HP/lck/def because his support easily covers his durability, while the crown gives him more crit and astra earlier. Our sages could take a crown to use staves too, although this is probably just a waste unless our sage can also fight decently, since if I just wanted staves I have a lot of other options. And of course just using the crown at level 20 to shave off a level.

I think a crown is fairly contested, and I don't think he's mid tier. Definitely somewhere at the top of lower mid though.

[Yojinbo]

I still think his bond supports are underrated/ignored too often ... but whatever...

[Narga_Rocks]

About Nasir and the other 3 you said should go to mid, you never specifically said where in mid. Bottom of mid might work.

And remember, Soren vs Calill is only that Calill isn't so bad compared to him. The focus is on Calill vs. Bastian.

And I don't think comparing Ilyana to Lyre and Kyza has a point to it. She beats them both in mt because of the def/res gap, and durability in part 3 is irrelevant since she isn't getting attacked. She doesn't double but against most things neither do they, and when they are transformed she gains levels about 3 or 4 times as fast or more, so saying they grow faster is also likely inaccurate. And that is ignoring how they are eating grass others want and losing player phases and needing prime real estate on enemy phase to face exactly 2 enemies so they don't start untransforming on us.

And in 4-E-4 unless you wall off your dragons you can't bring Kurth or Ena then since they don't ORKO.

Edited July 1, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

3 chapters >>> 1 chapter, obviously.

I never said she'd be above him, just going with him.

I could say her endgame is easier to fix as well. Talisman no one wants, BEXPd to promotion>Energy drop/4 CEXP levels, than roughly the same levels in BEXP/11 levels of BEXP, then not needing Nasir to double auras>not doing so.

But that would be silly no matter how you split it.

Edited July 1, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Vykan12]

Personally I'd crown him after he caps spd. It's not like Rolf will mind sitting at his str cap for a few levels since his growth is huge.

That would bring him to --/17/0, so you might as well push him for those last 4 levels rather than crowning him if giving him that item is an issue. In fact, with 2 stats capped, we can BEXP him effectively for however many levels we like.

How bad is he if we promote him naturally? Putting him on Micaiah's route, he'll have the same AS as Skrimir, who basically doubles everything in 4-P. Assuming he's third tier by 4-3, he'll have 28, which gets most of the enemies in the desert, plus he'll still be growing really quickly so he can squeeze out an extra point or two mid-chapter.

[Progenitus]

And remember, Soren vs Calill is only that Calill isn't so bad compared to him. The focus is on Calill vs. Bastian.

Really? Consider that Calill might have less doubling issues than Soren, but she'll also run into attack issues (which means even if Calill has more spd, Soren will be winning vs the slower enemies), and she won't have an established support so she'll be losing durability to him too.

For example, 4-1 generals have 44-47 HP, 17-20 res. Assuming she has a C support and max mt fire tome, for Calill to one round the weakest generals she needs to be ~20/20/3. To one round the strongest ones she needs to be ~20/20/13. Now give the same tome to Soren and an A support with someone. For him to one round the weakest generals he needs to be 20/20/1. To one round the strongest generals he needs to be ~20/20/4. Big difference. Even if we throw a spirit dust on Calill, that only lowers the level requirement by about 5 levels.

And I don't think comparing Ilyana to Lyre and Kyza has a point to it. She beats them both in mt because of the def/res gap, and durability in part 3 is irrelevant since she isn't getting attacked.

What do you mean she isn't getting attacked? Does she magically phase out before enemy phase or something?

The att lead is the only reason why Ilyana isn't getting stomped, but considering her offense is still terrible (on the other hand, Kyza's durability in part 3 is comparable to GMs like Titania and unsupported Ike).

And just to let you know, being comparable to Lyre/Kyza means Ilyana is frickin terrible. It's like saying "well I'm comparable to Meg".

She doesn't double but against most things neither do they,

They double far earlier than Ilyana, and they don't get doubled by SMs. At least if we throw a speedwing on them they can double.

and when they are transformed she gains levels about 3 or 4 times as fast or more, so saying they grow faster is also likely inaccurate.

She's only gaining that much more exp for a short awhile. The more levels she gains, the less the exp difference becomes.

And that is ignoring how they are eating grass others want

You have more than enough grasses from the shop for this to not be an issue.

and losing player phases

It's a minor hindrance when you consider that Ilyana is getting 2HKO'd at ridiculous hit rates, meaning Ilyana sometimes won't even be able to do anything on a player phase because her durability doesn't allow for it.

and needing prime real estate on enemy phase to face exactly 2 enemies so they don't start untransforming on us.

exactly 2 enemies? wtf are you talking about? They don't lose 15 gauge per round of combat.

And in 4-E-4 unless you wall off your dragons you can't bring Kurth or Ena then since they don't ORKO.

You mean Ilyana does any better? She'd need to be 20/20/17 AND standing next to Nasir to just double all the spirits. Kurth/Ena don't do any better, but then again they weren't lolsucking for all of part 3.

So what if we can't use Kurth/Ena? We just don't field them for thsi chapter. And unless you're suggesting Ilyana is actually better than an empty slot, we're probably not fielding her either.

That would bring him to --/17/0, so you might as well push him for those last 4 levels rather than crowning him if giving him that item is an issue. In fact, with 2 stats capped, we can BEXP him effectively for however many levels we like.

It's going to be either a crown or several levels of BEXP to promote him by part 4. Either way that's a bit of resources.

How bad is he if we promote him naturally? Putting him on Micaiah's route, he'll have the same AS as Skrimir, who basically doubles everything in 4-P. Assuming he's third tier by 4-3, he'll have 28, which gets most of the enemies in the desert, plus he'll still be growing really quickly so he can squeeze out an extra point or two mid-chapter.

The issue with 4-P is that the enemies are jokes because it's an loladin swarm that pretty much anyone can take down (remember we have horseslayers and since this is the last chapter loladins show up in, aside from a few that appear in 4-2, we may as well use them), so Rolf's overkill stats don't help him. In fact, because each individual loladin is so weak, being able to counter them en masse takes precedence, which Rolf sucks at doing.

And then 4-3 is pretty bad for him because he only has 2 move in the gigantic desert where you should have your fliers/laguz/mages around to deal with stuff.

Also, 28 AS doubling in 4-3 sounds too low. I remember 28 was borderline in NM. Consider that 4-3 enemies are a higher level than 4-1 enemies, and 4-1 enemies are already at 24-25 AS.

[Narga_Rocks]

smash, I was too lazy to quote your other post in my last one so the thing about ena and kurth I don't think had anything to do with Ilyana. I'm not sure, though, but I'm doing something else right now so I'll respond to some of your points now and others later and try to see what I was responding to when I mentioned Ena and Kurth in 4-E-4. I'm sure it had more to do with Nasir not being amazing in 4-E-4 and nothing to do with Ilyana.

Looking back at my post, though, I can see there was no way you could have known that so it was likely my fault.

And the thing about exactly two enemies for Kyza and Lyre goes like this:

Lyre loses 4 gauge per attack, Lyre loses 5 per round. She starts at 30 and we attack on player phase. Now she is at 26. Gets attacked by 2 enemies and on next player phase she is at 13. If we don't grass and simply attack then she can't get attacked on enemy phase or she will untransform. So we grass her. She is at 28. Let's allow her to get attacked by 3 on enemy phase now. So she starts next player phase at 11. She will never get a player phase as long as she keeps grassing and will eventually untransform if she takes on 3 each time. Granted, she likely won't because we aren't constantly swarmed.

Looks like I might have exagerated a bit, and since tiger's gauges work better he can likely face 3 each time without issue. The point is though that they do squat on player phase because they keep grassing or the cats will untransform if they get attacked by anything. Kyza doesn't have this issue as much because of tiger gauges though. Kyza might be able to attack every other round on player phase, or at worst 1 out of 3.

The thing here is, I'm not sure how you play but in most chapters in part 3 you can easily control the flow of enemies. You have Gatrie and Ike and sometimes Haar who can take point, and if Mia has an Ike support she can too, or Oscar if he has an Ike support. These guys can take on 5 or 6 on their own on enemy phase (Mia and Oscar can start by B Ike) which is important in chapters like 3-5, 3-7 (zihark's island), 3-8, 3-10, 3-11, 3-E, at least if you want to clear quickly (the hawks can sometimes do this but even though their gauge isn't bad, they can't take a full wave all turns). There are usually enough enemies left alive in range come player phase that Ilyana being able to attack every player phase is important because everyone following our vanguard (not the class) needs to kill the leftovers while Ike and Gatrie and Oscar/Mia press on (and Haar does whatever, and the hawks grass or something).

To be honest, I probably shouldn't gripe about Lyre and Kyza too much because with this strategy their enemy phase doesn't usually see enemies. But, for player phases Lyre attacks 2 out of 3 turns, Kyza 3 out of 4, so while it isn't much it might be the difference between an ememy left alive and an enemy dead. Which means we now might have to waste time walling in Rhys or another Laguz about to untransform. Plus, I don't know how you play but I went through all of part 3 without Ilyana getting attacked on enemy phase except in 3-5, and that was only because I didn't realize the guys next to the boss would move if they could canto back into position, and still finished all part 3 chapters on time. Well, she would have been attacked one or two other times on enemy phase but that would've only been if I placed her there for that purpose when I could've placed her elsewhere (like 3-7 out on the river facing single mages or single dragonmasters on enemy phase), or an onager or two.

With statements like this:

It's a minor hindrance when you consider that Ilyana is getting 2HKO'd at ridiculous hit rates, meaning Ilyana sometimes won't even be able to do anything on a player phase because her durability doesn't allow for it.

I can see that you play differently so I probably can't convince you that she can attack every player phase if I want her to do so and there are enemies around (eg in 3-4 there are a couple of turns of simply running north so she obviously can't attack those player phases), but the point is that her 2HKOness is not really a hindrance, and as far as I'm concerned 2HKO'd at 90% might as well be equivalent to 2HKO'd at 50% since I don't much want to risk the 25% chance of having to reset. So I'm never letting them face 2 attacks anyway. And while that 50% means if the unit faces one attack and dodges I don't have to heal, well since I can't count on it I have to plan to be able to heal the unit anyway. Sometimes it is an advantage, but not very often really. With Rhys and Mist both fielded in most part 3 maps it is generally easy to heal when necessary.

And I know being "comparable" to bad people doesn't help. The point is her offense is a fair bit better in 3-4 and since she will probably continue to be able to finish off a fair number of weakened enemies she does just fine for herself in part 3. She is better in part 1 and part 4 than part 3 so she really just needs to tread water in part 3, ie: finish off Mia/Oscar's leftovers. As long as she does this she isn't a "negative" during part 3, so it can't be held against her.

Anyway, I'll try to get at the rest later, probably tomorrow. And this topic seems to be going much slower today than the previous week.

Edited July 2, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Interceptor]

Great, it's the goddamn Ilyana discussion again. Some of the actors are different, but the play is the same. I guess that 2,000-post throwdown didn't put this one to bed forever. Allow me to re-post excerpts from something that I wrote over a year ago, back in late March of 2008, in a post titled "Tactics 101: Using Ilyana without five layers of bubble wrap":

Ilyana is a tough character to play effectively. She is clutch in Part 1, but when she rejoins as a playable character in Part 3, she is quite underlevelled and underpowered compared to the rest of the characters at your disposal. It's difficult -- but not impossible -- to use her without needlessly slowing down the rest of your team.

Ilyana has a no-cap Shade skill (which nobody else really has an over-riding need for or claim to, especially considering you get a second one fairly early). Since she has a 1-2 range weapon, enemies that cannot one-round her are discouraged from attacking, because of the AI behavior that puts no-counterattacks at a higher priority. That's not to say that she won't be attacked -- after all, she takes a lot of damage, which puts her higher up as well -- but it allows you to take calculated risks with her.

It's possible to get through the game by doing nothing more than making a huge defensive line and hiding all of your squishies behind it, however this stunts the offensive power of your powerful units, and makes for slower chapter completion, because units without Canto can't break the line. But the really good players will only make partial walls, to confound the range of enemy units without making a complete blockade. It's quite possible to have a partial wall of units, or even an obstacle course of units, and keep the mages/healers one square out of enemy retaliation range.

With a forged tome (made with Dawn Brigade's copious amounts of gold) or two, Ilyana is effective as a finisher or a weakener. She targets RES, and although she can't double, she can make the difference on a kill. Greil Mercs have a lot of heavies, but even Titania and Ike will encounter situations where they can't one-round because of tier 2 STR caps, not to mention people like Gatrie who lose the ability to double, or people like Mia who need skill activation for kills (and require a clean-up crew).

Now, it may be that someone has an objection to all this. The objection may look something like this:

Astrid higher because she attacks at range. if she gets attacked, you just suck at tactics.

Sanaki higher because she attacks at range. if she gets attacked, you just suck at tactics.

Leo higher because he attacks at range. if he gets attacked, you just suck at tactics.

Astrid has lousy availability and comes in at an even bigger level deficit than Ilyana (starts at -/2 and only has 2.5 chapters to level in before rejoining GM). Ilyana has the most availibility out of any character in the game. If Astrid was around as long, her ability to hit and run with bows + Canto would make her more useful indeed. Canto especially would make her a more consistent pot-shotter, except that the fact that she's targetting DEF with lousy STR is a big mark against her.

Sanaki comes as tier 3, but so late in the game that it's hard for her to make any difference at all. She can't even use staves, and is forced into Micaiah's army. These things being considered, it's difficult to find characters that are less useful than she is.

Leo is only useful in the first parts of the game. He has awful stats, but can attack uncountered, the walls have to made in Part 1 regardless because of Micaiah and Laura. If he had a useful 1-2 range weapon (without Beastfoe anyway), he might be better than he is now.

And yes, if your mages/archers are getting eaten alive, your tactics are the first aspect you'll want to investigate.

Wait. Explain to me why "sucky offense and defense" hurts these three, but not Ilyana.

Poor question, it has a bad premise. Sucky offense and defense hurt all four of those characters, but Ilyana is able to contibute positively in spite of that because of her environment.

Edited July 2, 2009 by Interceptor

[grandjackal]

Actually...I got a question. Has anyone tested BEXP to see if one could get 2 points for one stat if their growth is above 100%?