OMG it's a tier list

[Hexmaster44]

Crowning Titania when she has less than 23 SPD is almost a waste, because Sol is hardly worth it, 23-24 AS is not enough to consistently double the 21 AS enemies, and Titania hits a brick wall in terms of levels once she hits tier 3 (so you can't count on her SPD growth to fix it quite yet). Uncapping her STR is useful, but it has limited potential if she's not doubling consistently. Haar is basically in Titania's position, except that his mastery is considerably more useful than hers, mitigating the penalty of him failing to double (28% chance to ORKO on a unit that can take tons of Enemy Phase, that's not bad).

Why is Stun better than Sol? They both triple damage, and stunning an enemy that you likely kill is mostly superflous. Regaining HP is much more useful than Stunning a dead enemy. As you said, Titania's STR is no longer capped with an early crown, and it's not like she's struggling there anyways.

EDIT: Activation rate. SKL%>(SKL/2)%. Sorry.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Hexmaster44

[_____]

Activation percentages.

Stun is (Skill%).

Sol is (Skill/2)%.

Edit: Ninja'd by the person asking the question. ;_;

Edited July 7, 2009 by Ninji

[Florete]

Were any changes agreed on since ~page 69? I don't have the time to read through 8 pages of text. Or just link me to the important stuff so I can decide if a change is needed.

[-Cynthia-]

Were any changes agreed on since ~page 69? I don't have the time to read through 8 pages of text. Or just link me to the important stuff so I can decide if a change is needed.

I don't believe anyone opposed Rafiel to the bottom of High. There's also a general consensus that Makalov needs to go down to..somewhere, at least below Volke.

Edited July 7, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Florete]

In that case, should Leanne also drop? I'm thinking perhaps below Titania for now.

[Narga_Rocks]

In that case, should Leanne also drop? I'm thinking perhaps below Titania for now.

Maybe below Sothe, but I disagree with below Titania. Frankly with her doubling and durability issues relative to most of the others in high tier during part 3 she should drop, but whatever. And both Sothe and Titania have late game issues so Leanne not being as good as Reyson in 4-E doesn't matter much. Really I disagree for below either, I just disagree less with below Sothe.

A lot of the last 10 pages was Astrid vs Lyre stuff, Vykan took out popcorn.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Progenitus]

Here are suggestions I made, though not many of them were even talked about. Perhaps silence = agreement on the other people's parts?

Lower mid and low in general is a mess. There's a lot of changes that need to be made, but everytime a suggestion is made, it usually gets drowned in 50+ posts and then nothing comes out of it.

This is what I feel it should look like. The / means those units are relatively equal and I don't really care who's above who.

Lower Middle

Lehran

Rolf/Nealuchi/Lucia/Ena/Vika/Bastian/Oliver

Kurth/Gareth

Edward/Leo/Ilyana/Mak/Danved

Low

Sigrun/Renning

Kyza/Lethe/Pelleas

Stefan/Volke/Tormod/Nasir should be in middle.

Calill should also move down into lower mid. Probably with Kurth/Gareth or something.

Although since then I had Kurth/Gareth at the same level as Edward/Leo/etc.

Sothe should just move down to the bottom of high. His part 4 is absolute garbage and his part 3 is pretty average. It's cool that he rapes several chapters in part 1, but it's only a portion of the game.

[Colonel M]

Also we were discussing Gatre > Hawks, but it hasn't gotten very far off the ground (lol, pun).

[Narga_Rocks]

Here are suggestions I made, though not many of them were even talked about. Perhaps silence = agreement on the other people's parts?

I don't think it was so much agreement as not caring. A lot of your suggestions are big changes but many of them are somewhat reasonable. For me, I only complained about the ones I cared about, and I don't remember but I think I vocalized some of the ones I did agree with. I'm sure some people thought it wasn't worth bothering about because Red Fox of Fire would not be likely to make that many big changes. Of those who thought Red Fox of Fire would be willing to make the changes, they might have decided the best way to keep the list how they liked it was ignoring your post. I think the board was moving a bit faster around that time so some people might have even missed it entirely.

Maybe I shouldn't have bothered saying all this because your second sentence might have been tongue in cheek or something, but I figured I shouldn't just leave that sentence alone. If I knew how to do a poll I might be tempted to try seeing how many people fall into which category, but I doubt people would care enough to vote anyway.

One thing I remember though is agreeing that Rolf should be around the same level as Vika, and moving her out of Low. Not enough people commented though for me to be able to suggest that the board agrees.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

Lower mid and low in general is a mess. There's a lot of changes that need to be made, but everytime a suggestion is made, it usually gets drowned in 50+ posts and then nothing comes out of it.

This is what I feel it should look like. The / means those units are relatively equal and I don't really care who's above who.

Lower Middle

Lehran

Rolf/Nealuchi/Lucia/Ena/Vika/Bastian/Oliver

Kurth/Gareth

Edward/Leo/Ilyana/Mak/Danved

Low

Sigrun/Renning

Kyza/Lethe/Pelleas

Stefan/Volke/Tormod/Nasir should be in middle.

Calill should also move down into lower mid. Probably with Kurth/Gareth or something.

How the hell does Lehran's one chapter (where he isn't particularly amazing anyway) put him at the top of Lower Mid?

I also don't agree with Ena, Vika, Bastian, Oliver, Kurthnaga, and Gareth being as high as you're suggesting, especially Bastian and Oliver, who can't do much other than heal. They can all be helpful in their own way, and I can see some such as Ena jumping to Lower Mid, but I'm not sure about the others. They just aren't around long enough and aren't that good.

Stefan, Volke, and Nasir I could see in Mid, but not Tormod. He's good but not great in part 1 and might as well not exist otherwise. I'd put him maybe right above Rolf.

Sothe should just move down to the bottom of high. His part 4 is absolute garbage and his part 3 is pretty average. It's cool that he rapes several chapters in part 1, but it's only a portion of the game.

His part 4 isn't that bad. It's worse than most others for sure, but on an individual level, it isn't exactly terrible either, and being forced means he can at least make himself useful while not cutting anyone else out. I believe I went over this in-depth with Interceptor, but it was lost in the time warp.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Interceptor]

His part 4 isn't that bad. It's worse than most others for sure, but on an individual level, it isn't exactly terrible either, and being forced means he can at least make himself useful while not cutting anyone else out. I believe over this in-depth with Interceptor, but it was lost in the time warp.

Happy to argue that one again, Sothe is over-rated currently. Being forced is nice, but if you 1) don't actually need the unit slot and 2) can't do anything really useful with it anyway, it's hard to make that into an advantage. He's not accruing negative utility for Part 4, certainly, so long as you don't try to do something silly like give him kills and level him, but I don't think that he's being very useful at all except for finding items in the desert and that one chest on 4-E-1.

[Florete]

I can agree he should go down, I just don't think he should be bottom of High. I can easily see him > Mia and Shinon at the very least.

[Progenitus]

How the hell does Lehran's one chapter (where he isn't particularly amazing anyway) put him at the top of Lower Mid?

I also don't agree with Ena, Vika, Bastian, Oliver, Kurthnaga, and Gareth being as high as you're suggesting, especially Bastian and Oliver, who can't do much other than heal. They can all be helpful in their own way, and I can see some such as Ena jumping to Lower Mid, but I'm not sure about the others. They just aren't around long enough and aren't that good.

Stefan, Volke, and Nasir I could see in Mid, but not Tormod. He's good but not great in part 1 and might as well not exist otherwise. I'd put him maybe right above Rolf.

When you compare them to the units below them, they >>> those guys.

This isn't about "oh my guy sucks, or is this good", etc. It's about being better than the competition.

This is like me saying "I think Haar is the best unit in the game because he flies" and then say nothing else. Not even comparing him to the other potential contenders for the best unit in the game.

His part 4 isn't that bad. It's worse than most others for sure, but on an individual level, it isn't exactly terrible either, and being forced means he can at least make himself useful while not cutting anyone else out. I believe over this in-depth with Interceptor, but it was lost in the time warp.

He needs like 18 levels just to double the generals in 4-E-1 with his amazing 28 str cap and 18 mt baselard that he may not even have the weapon rank for (since he caps at S until 3rd tier, and then has 1 chapter to get to SS). That's frickin awful. And his durability is garbage. lol @ 20% def growth with only averageish avoid. His auto-A with Micaiah doesn't even help him, since Micaiah's durability is even worse and spends all her time in the back spamming physics, away from the fighting where Sothe needs to be if he wants to try and do anything, and best of luck finding someone else to support him since no one wants wind.

This is so awful, it's like "what if Kurth didn't have night tide?".

I can agree he should go down, I just don't think he should be bottom of High. I can easily see him > Mia and Shinon at the very least.

I know Int is going to argue Mia > Sothe, and I'd argue Shinon > Sothe (or Shinon > Mia for that matter), but I'll just leave it for another time.

I suppose the very bottom is too low, but he should definitely move down. Above Mia and Shinon is fine for now.

Edited July 7, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Interceptor]

[...]he may not even have the weapon rank for (since he caps at S until 3rd tier, and then has 1 chapter to get to SS).

This is about as difficult as falling out of bed. Hardly anyone wants either Discipline at this point and Sothe can combine that with a Silver/Pesh for SS rank in 8 attacks, not to mention easy Arms Scrolls in 4-E-1 if you whiff it.

I know Int is going to argue Mia > Sothe, and I'd argue Shinon > Sothe (or Shinon > Mia for that matter), but I'll just leave it for another time.

You'd argue Shinon to top of High if you thought you could get away with it, facts be damned.

[Colonel M]

Weapon Ranks should not be an issue. The game tosses us over 9000 Arms Scrolls in 4-E and you are swimming in gold (well hopefully you didn't piss it all away).

[Narga_Rocks]

How the hell does Lehran's one chapter (where he isn't particularly amazing anyway) put him at the top of Lower Mid?

Lehran could stand to be a bit higher. In his one chapter it should be over in 2 to 4 turns, and at the beginning of 2 and 4 you are recovering from an AoE and in turn 1 and 3 he lets you care a lot less about the units without Nihil attacking Auras and getting hit with aurora. He heals at the end of turn 1, beginning of turn 2 and end of turn 3. The fortify staff is no longer needed in 4-E-5 and so you can use its 5 uses more freely in the rest of 4-E and not even need to hammerne the thing anymore. Depending on playstyle and what units go where it can be useful to have 5 uses of it in 4-E-2, 3, 4. The fact that it is simple enough to only need fortify once in those 3 chapters and the ashera staff only once in 4-E-5 is irrelevant, what matters is we can if we want. Lehran has no business in 4-E-5 doing anything but healing, though. There are a fair number of people smash is putting under him that are useful for more than 6 turns (3 ashera staff uses in 4-E-5 and 3 extra fortify uses in 4-E-2/3/4, though that could be argued as double counting), but guys like Danved and Renning and Mak could stand to go under him.

I also don't agree with Ena, Vika, Bastian, Oliver, Kurthnaga, and Gareth being as high as you're suggesting, especially Bastian and Oliver, who can't do much other than heal. They can all be helpful in their own way, and I can see some such as Ena jumping to Lower Mid, but I'm not sure about the others. They just aren't around long enough and aren't that good.

Stefan, Volke, and Nasir I could see in Mid, but not Tormod. He's good but not great in part 1 and might as well not exist otherwise. I'd put him maybe right above Rolf.

Ena is extremely helpful against deg and ashera and her auras. Everything else it is simply more work to plan out how to use her than it is to simply not and kill things without her boost. Still, she could stand to go above Mak and Danved and Bastian and for Lucia it depends on how positive her part 4 is, because 2-2 alone shouldn't give that big a gap over Ena.

Vika could move up. If we care about saving all 6 civilians in 1-8 we can't save the top two on the right without her. If Volug gets credit for keeping more paladins than just Fiona alive than Vika gets something for the civilians, too. She has the best move of anyone with Canto in 1-E while transformed and if Sigrun gets credit for rescues and canto moving of people then so should Vika. In 1-7 she can help get to the soldiers in the bottom right faster and if we care about saving them all then that helps too. If we don't care about things that aren't required but the game obviously wants us to do, then she doesn't need to move up.

Bastian is decent as far as archsages go if we don't want them to double non-dragons. He can use rexcalibur without needing to be raised and can double dragons with whatever long-ranged tome we can have. In 4-5 he can even use Bolganone and that could be helpful vs Tigers and Cats. And since this board seems to think Micaiah is nothing more than a healbot in 4-E then by their logic there is no better user of fortify so Bastian not having S staves doesn't hurt his healing ability. Honestly, if you can see Volke and Stefan going up when Sothe should have Volke's best weapon and Mia should have Stefan's best weapon and Zihark or Elincia should have Alondite, then since Bastian compared to the sages we could have raised is similar to those two compared to what we have to raise or probably raised, then Bastian might as well go up a bit.

Oliver can probably go above Renning simply because neither should be used, but anyone can heal and while he will suck at attacking, it takes work to make a #2 healer that can attack better than him (Only Laura or Bastian is a better #2 healer and Bastian forces Micaiah to be the fortify user, Mist and Elincia will only be a #3 healer because Elincia should attack more than she heals and Mist doesn't have enough Magic to be #2.) Since Renning is more inferior to the other people we could use than Oliver is, Oliver > Renning.

He did edit Kurth to tie with Ed/Leo/Ilyana/Mak/Danved, so he is really only bumping Kurth over Sigrun, though Night Tide is more trouble than it is worth and his combat is among the worst on the team and he has no other forms of utility, so I guess I agree with you.

Gareth is pointless in 4-E-4, but helpful in 4-E-5. Since Ena and a heron make it possible to easily one turn deg instead of 3 or 4 turn him, though, Ena should likely remain a few spots above Gareth, possibly even more than the 4 she is currently. And with cards she has very good chip damage and will never be countered on player phase. She shouldn't do this every round, but 1 Reaper Card and 1 Daemon Card should carry her through pretty well if she attacks rarely. Still, Gareth could stand to go above Renning.

His part 4 isn't that bad. It's worse than most others for sure, but on an individual level, it isn't exactly terrible either, and being forced means he can at least make himself useful while not cutting anyone else out. I believe over this in-depth with Interceptor, but it was lost in the time warp.

About Sothe, I think Sothe > Zihark and Titania. The trouble is I think there are a few people > Zihark and Titania that aren't right now, so I think Sothe should move down, but since those two are directly under where he is now, there isn't much point in making the list worse. Although I don't think many agree with me on that, so oh well.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[dondon151]

Lehran could stand to be a bit higher. In his one chapter it should be over in 2 to 4 turns, and at the beginning of 2 and 4 you are recovering from an AoE and in turn 1 and 3 he lets you care a lot less about the units without Nihil attacking Auras and getting hit with aurora. He heals at the end of turn 1, beginning of turn 2 and end of turn 3. The fortify staff is no longer needed in 4-E-5 and so you can use its 5 uses more freely in the rest of 4-E and not even need to hammerne the thing anymore. Depending on playstyle and what units go where it can be useful to have 5 uses of it in 4-E-2, 3, 4. The fact that it is simple enough to only need fortify once in those 3 chapters and the ashera staff only once in 4-E-5 is irrelevant, what matters is we can if we want. Lehran has no business in 4-E-5 doing anything but healing, though. There are a fair number of people smash is putting under him that are useful for more than 6 turns (3 ashera staff uses in 4-E-5 and 3 extra fortify uses in 4-E-2/3/4, though that could be argued as double counting), but guys like Danved and Renning and Mak could stand to go under him.

Ashera staff isn't locked to Lehran, and his utility has to be more impressive than "well he's useful if we don't have another SS rank staff user and Fortify is broken." Danved and Makalov are useful in every turn of 3-9 (lack of PC units) and I'm not clear on Renning's offensive ability in 4-E but I think it's passable.

Vika could move up. If we care about saving all 6 civilians in 1-8 we can't save the top two on the right without her. If Volug gets credit for keeping more paladins than just Fiona alive than Vika gets something for the civilians, too. She has the best move of anyone with Canto in 1-E while transformed and if Sigrun gets credit for rescues and canto moving of people then so should Vika.

Volug doesn't get much credit for rescuing the Marado people and Sigrun doesn't get much credit for rescuing people. I'm pretty sure that neither of their positions on the tier list are defined by such situational and specific utility.

Oliver can probably go above Renning simply because neither should be used, but anyone can heal and while he will suck at attacking, it takes work to make a #2 healer that can attack better than him (Only Laura or Bastian is a better #2 healer, Mist and Elincia will only be a #3 healer because Elincia should attack more than she heals and Mist doesn't have enough Magic to be #2.) Since Renning is more inferior to the other people we could use than Oliver is, Oliver > Renning.

Gareth is pointless in 4-E-4, but helpful in 4-E-5. Since Ena and a heron make it possible to easily one turn deg instead of 3 or 4 turn him, though, Ena should likely remain a few spots above Gareth, possibly even more than the 4 she is currently. And with cards she has very good chip damage and will never be countered on player phase. She shouldn't do this every round, but 1 Reaper Card and 1 Daemon Card should carry her through pretty well if she attacks rarely. Still, Gareth could stand to go above Renning.

Gareth is also kind of a liability on every map he's on unless he's on wardwood with Night Tide and Ward staff or something.

[Narga_Rocks]

I'm assuming your take on Oliver got lost?

Ashera staff isn't locked to Lehran, and his utility has to be more impressive than "well he's useful if we don't have another SS rank staff user and Fortify is broken." Danved and Makalov are useful in every turn of 3-9 (lack of PC units) and I'm not clear on Renning's offensive ability in 4-E but I think it's passable.

Takes too long and since any damage helps if Micaiah or Laura or Rhys or Oliver isn't doing anything else they can at least take a whack at a cover tile aura or spirit on turn 1. Lehran starts far enough away that I'm not even sure if you move him 6 and a staff user 6 you could even get them to meet. Maybe if you start them on the far left, but then a good spot for attacking on turn 1 might be wasted pointlessly and one of your units will just be wasting a turn. Turn 2 you could argue that by then he can trade his staff with someone else that can use it, but then he can take their blessed light tome and start blasting away with a mag stat that only Micaiah can match and a spd stat no mage can, and since Rexaura only weighs 11 and we get Lehran with 40 spd and 11 str he can now double corner tiles with 52 might without Nasir, or 57 with. Either way you look at it, he helps. Really it is simplest to just have him hide on a cover tile where he takes 0 damage from Ashera and blast his staff.

And the point is with him existing we CAN break fortify. It just means I would have to think less on previous maps. If I have to think less, then that's because it is easier. He makes things easier. If the game gave us Lehran and the ashera staff in the adv part of 4-E-5 and let us get at his stuff, I wouldn't argue this stuff in his favour. Well, I'd probably say we should just give him Rexaura and we don't need to raise Calill for cover tiles anymore, but I wouldn't give him any credit for extra uses of fortify.

Volug doesn't get much credit for rescuing the Marado people and Sigrun doesn't get much credit for rescuing people. I'm pretty sure that neither of their positions on the tier list are defined by such situational and specific utility.

I've seen it in some arguments for why Volug > Tauroneo in 1-6-1, though maybe that was about Jill, but I doubt it. And what else is Sigrun doing to get where she is? With 24 speed she only doubles paladins and generals and mages, and with only 18 str she doesn't do much damage. With the steel greatlance she has 157 hit with Ike's stars factored in, and doesn't even get those in her part 4 chapters. Even if you find a way to get her two levels, or crown her, 26 spd doesn't double much anymore come part 4. Since Sigrun isn't doing much else, the only way I see her getting this high is her ability to block potholes, team up with Tanith to rescue/take/drop Leanne in 3-11 so she can vigor from more places without dying on us, and other rescue tricks like keeping Micaiah from being OHKOd in 4-P yet still attacking or something and moving Sothe around in 4-3 gathering items and stuff like that. If she isn't getting much credit for this, then I can almost accept Smash's desire to put her in low.

Gareth is also kind of a liability on every map he's on unless he's on wardwood with Night Tide and Ward staff or something.

He only needs a pure water or ward staff on turn 2 if Ashera isn't dead by the end of player phase 2 and shouldn't even be fielded in 4-E-4. It is a simple enough matter to kill all the spirits on each turn in 4-E-5 until the turn in which you kill Ashera, so he isn't a liability in 4-E-5 at all. Plus with him there we know who Ashera is attacking on turn 2, so he actually helps. Since she attacks Gareth instead of someone without Nihil, we don't have to heal anyone on turn 3 until Lehran is the last guy we have left that can move. If not for Gareth, someone else might not be able to attack Ashera's Auras on turn 3 unless someone else heals the guy first. Since Gareth has crap for accuracy against auras anyway, him getting attacked isn't costing us anything. Plus him and Nasir give us an excuse to not field 2 of Sanaki/Sothe/Kurth.

Oh, and night tide alone is insufficient to keep him alive from Ashera's "Attack Gareth" move on turn 2. He needs a Ward, or a pure water, or on a wardwood tile, or Talisman + Night tide. In fact, if you pure water or ward him on turn 1 he still dies from Ashera's "Attack Gareth" move. Since he is there for his Blood Tide and not his attacking, I don't see any reason for him not to pure water on turn 2.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Vykan12]

Gareth is also kind of a liability on every map he's on unless he's on wardwood with Night Tide and Ward staff or something.

Actually just a wardwood + spirit water works. The imposition is on himself only, and all it really does is limit his ability to give off blood tide bonuses as freely as Ena can.

[Narga_Rocks]

Actually just a wardwood + spirit water works. The imposition is on himself only, and all it really does is limit his ability to give off blood tide bonuses as freely as Ena can.

At full health he only needs spirit/pure water on turn 2. He is left with 2 HP afterwards, but so what? The spirits should be killed on player phase, not ignored, on any turn we aren't killing Ashera herself. It doesn't limit his ability to give off blood tide bonuses at all. He is effectively equivalent to Ena in this chapter, aside from how Ena can attack something on turn 2 and 3 if we can still optimally arrange her blood tide bonus.

[Progenitus]

Gareth is also significantly more likely than Ena is to OHKO spirits that attack him because he has like 65 att or something ridiculous. This already makes him not too bad in 4-E-4 when you have a bunch of units that can't double without Nasir's help or are laguz and can't 2-range, and of course in 4-E-5 with the wtfauras having 9001 def (especially if they're on cover) and avoid and Ashera having 50 million avoid makes his +str and skl cool.

Weapon Ranks should not be an issue. The game tosses us over 9000 Arms Scrolls in 4-E and you are swimming in gold (well hopefully you didn't piss it all away).

It's just icing on the cake about how terrible Sothe is in part 4.

You'd argue Shinon to top of High if you thought you could get away with it, facts be damned.

It's nice to know that someone will take off a part of their day just so they can troll me. I almost feel like a celebrity.

Edited July 7, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Narga_Rocks]

Gareth is also significantly more likely than Ena is to OHKO spirits that attack him because he has like 65 att or something ridiculous. This already makes him not too bad in 4-E-4 when you have a bunch of units that can't double without Nasir's help or are laguz and can't 2-range, and of course in 4-E-5 with the wtfauras having 9001 def (especially if they're on cover) and avoid and Ashera having 50 million avoid makes his +str and skl cool.

Okay, obviously Ena isn't OHKOing them. However, they have this annoying habit of attacking from cover tiles. Gareth has 62 att, so if they have 40 hp and 22 def or something he is only OHKOing them if they aren't on cover tiles. In the base stats that is the most it shows, so if they stupidly attack from a wardwood tile then he kills them all, but I thought they had like 23 def or something so he might not be OHKOing them anyway.

It is a moot point though, since I don't think it is possible to make them face Gareth from a non-cover tile unless you have about 6 or more guys standing on cover tiles around Gareth just so that the spirits have to attack from wardwood, which means they AREN'T on wardwood tiles. Keep in mind there are +10 def and +15 def tiles and either one means Gareth gets hit twice since he no longer OHKOs. Transformed Gareth has 18 res, and the enemies have 36 mt except winds have 39 mt. So a Gareth with pure water and a wardwood tile has 35 res and should live. Gareth with a pure water alone takes 22 or 28 damage per spirit and it takes 4 spirits to kill him, or 3 if they are all wind. Meaning we always have to stick him either next to Kurth or on a wardwood tile.

Further, since Sephiran seems to be able to attack anywhere on the screen occasionally and I have no idea what his pattern is. If you don't have Gareth on a wardwood tile with either a fresh pure water or Night Tide or maybe both, Sephiran will kill him with the help of spirits if he decides to try. Even with a fresh pure water, and standing on a wardwood tile and next to Kurth, Gareth takes 22 damage from Sephiran. Everything you don't have boosting Gareth's res means double what it boosts and add it onto 22. It just seems rather limiting in order to field a guy who leaves all the spirits with 8 to 10 hp after they blitz him anyway. That's why I say there is no point. If he could at least OHKO them on cover tiles, then I'd say go for it. But assuming the base stats thing on Serenes Forest does give the HP/Def totals of the spirits, he still needs:

1 energy drop, stand next to Ena, 1 bexp level in which he gets str

just to OHKO the things. Holding onto an energy drop until 4-E-4 just seems silly, and so does giving him 3 levels of bexp to get him 3 str if we don't give him the energy drop.

Plus if we do all this, including boosting his res, they will just attack Ena anyway and she doesn't OHKO. Remove Ena from the equation, and he can't ever OHKO no matter what we do (because of not having the +5 str from her blood tide).

In other words: no point in fielding him.

You'd argue Shinon to top of High if you thought you could get away with it, facts be damned.

It's nice to know that someone will take off a part of their day just so they can troll me. I almost feel like a celebrity.

You call that trolling? And how long do you really think it took Intercepter to come up with that? Besides, he's said many times he is here basically for his own entertainment (paraphrasing), so I think that fits in with his goals just as much as anything else he's ever done here.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Progenitus]

Gareth doesn't need to be on a wardwood tile AND OHKO spirits to live. he only needs wardwood, or able to OHKO them.

[Narga_Rocks]

Gareth doesn't need to be on a wardwood tile AND OHKO spirits to live. he only needs wardwood, or able to OHKO them.

I know. Although, 28 res still means 16 and 22 damage, or 6RKO from fire/thunder, 4RKO from wind, or 5RKO from any combination with at least 1 wind. There are at least 6 on the first turn, unless we kill enough. I don't remember how much moves on turn 1, just that anything that is there at the beginning and doesn't will never move anywhere but to guard Sephiran. Plus there is the whole range attack thing Sephiran can double Gareth with and a mere 28 res means 46 damage, or 36 hp remaining (3RKO from spirits), or 66 damage if we got complacent. The point is he needs more than just wardwood to guarantee survival, and it takes 3 things combined to let him OHKO the ones on cover tiles. However, if you can keep him alive, I will admit he does more in one hit than Ena does, so it is easier for others to finish them off afterwards. However, if you really want blood tide in 4-E-4, Ena seems like less of a headache. So unless I want 2 blood tides in 4-E-4, I don't see a reason to choose Gareth over Ena in that chapter.

Question: has anyone ever seen Sephiran Corona from 3 range or more? (I haven't)

Really, though, a level --/20/10 Nephenee has ~50 mt with wishblade and 36 res on a wardwood tile. Assuming a bit of bexp levels in part 3 while close to a level after capping stuff more than makes up for the .2 she is short of 50. If they have 38hp and 20 def, she ORKOs non fire spirits even on cover tiles. I'm sure there is more than just her that can do this. If Ike has 34 spd then he can manage this feat with his 55 mt before supports. Even if they have 40hp and 25 def he can do it.

I'm sure there are others, too, there is just no point in mentioning them all. The effect is that Gareth almost OHKOing spirits while needing a lot of planning to keep him alive just seems more trouble than it is worth.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Jaybee]

About the Olivi Grass, stuff, there's also a hidden one in 2-E that Heather can pick up. You can't use any laguz yet, but it still helps to spread the growth.

EDIT: I mean in 3-2 there are no laguz to use.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Joshybear25