OMG it's a tier list

[Vykan12]

Nealuchi is not going to attack 35 enemies in part 2. That's pretty absurd.

Nephenee has the same problem, difference being that she has to carry over mehness to the GMs anyways. All it really does is help her get out of her mehness sooner rather than when it would best help.

I'm not getting this argument. If Neph is used (decent chance with her being in upper-mid), she's going to want to level up in part 2.

Calill has little time to do anything with herself. Neal could help set her up leech kills anyways.

Conversely, Nealuchi could set up kills for Calill. What's your point?

-Brom is meh

He's better than Nealuchi beyond part 2.

-Haar doesn't NEED help to be awesome, he's just mainly there as a safety issue.

Actually he does, believe it or not. Giving him levels helps correct his AS problem, and he doesn't even start with overkill def.

[Lord Raven]

Giving him the Speedwing isn't a bad idea either. Who else is gonna use it? Brom?

[Florete]

Giving him the Speedwing isn't a bad idea either. Who else is gonna use it? Brom?

Ike? Titania? Boyd? Soren? Rolf? Mist? Rhys? Mordecai? Lots of people want a Speedwing or two.

[grandjackal]

Nealuchi is not going to attack 35 enemies in part 2. That's pretty absurd.

Perhaps, but no one seriously brought it up as an issue, thus why I was arguing in the first place. However, if it's so rediculous...

I'm not getting this argument. If Neph is used (decent chance with her being in upper-mid), she's going to want to level up in part 2.

Well all the more reason to have Neal get into the thick of it, to weaken for Neph. I suppose at first I was trying to argue as if trying to get Neal exp, but I suppose I was getting ahead of myself. All he wants is strike level really.

Conversely, Nealuchi could set up kills for Calill. What's your point?

Again, was just mentioning reason to have him attack. He doesn't necessarily need to kill, again was getting ahead of myself. Sorry for being a bit unclear.

He's better than Nealuchi beyond part 2.

In a different part. We plan to use Nealuchi, we're obviously preparing for part 4 here. Besides, if that's the case, then Neal helping Brom get kills earlier to be better for part 3 should be considered. In the end though, Brom still sucks part 4 regardless. Hell, he slows down pretty early in part 3 anyways, how is it giving him anything is impressive at all?

Actually he does, believe it or not. Giving him levels helps correct his AS problem, and he doesn't even start with overkill def.

Now how fast is Haar gaining exp in this part now, and how is it helping him gain speed with his pathetic speed growth? Speed will always be a problem, he'd prefer a speedwing.

Giving him the Speedwing isn't a bad idea either. Who else is gonna use it? Brom?

Precisely. No exp involved.

[Lord Raven]

Ike? Titania? Boyd? Soren? Rolf? Mist? Rhys? Mordecai? Lots of people want a Speedwing or two.

It's so easy to get it to Haar in time for 2-E though, if you put enough useless items on Geof or something. And Haar makes PLENTY of use of it during 2-E, and it saves BEXP it'll take to get those extra speed boosts. And you want to use it on the Greil Mercs when their chapters are piss easy anyway?

Using it on Haar = more use for more chapters for more bearability during the tougher parts.

[-Cynthia-]

It's so easy to get it to Haar in time for 2-E though, if you put enough useless items on Geof or something. And Haar makes PLENTY of use of it during 2-E, and it saves BEXP it'll take to get those extra speed boosts. And you want to use it on the Greil Mercs when their chapters are piss easy anyway?

Using it on Haar = more use for more chapters for more bearability during the tougher parts.

We only get one more chapter out of using the Speedwing on Haar than we do waiting until 3-2. Obviously Speedwing!Haar is good, but a lot of people get better with a Speedwing (Titania, Boyd, Oscar etc.)

Edited August 2, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

Well all the more reason to have Neal get into the thick of it, to weaken for Neph.

Anyone can weaken for her. Mordy, Nealuchi and Lethe all do roughly the same damage. Lucia can too if she uses a weaker sword.

In a different part. We plan to use Nealuchi, we're obviously preparing for part 4 here.

That’s fine, but you were blowing off the possibility of using Brom. Using him makes 2-2 more efficient anyway, so using him passively (or not at all) in 2-E wouldn’t help Nealuchi that much.

In the end though, Brom still sucks part 4 regardless.

If being super durable but not doubling is suck, then sure. Let’s move Mordy, Skrimir, Tauroneo and Aran down the list this instant.

Now how fast is Haar gaining exp in this part now, and how is it helping him gain speed with his pathetic speed growth? Speed will always be a problem, he'd prefer a speedwing.

A 30% spd growth isn’t as bad as you make it out to be. Giving Haar a speedwing + levelling is obviously > just a speedwing. And remember that 22 AS won’t even double in 3-2 (actually it will but that’s because it’s paladin heavy. In 3-3 he already runs into trouble). The sooner he promotes, the sooner he gets another much needed +2 AS.

[Lord Raven]

Aran has SOME potential to get BEXP Speed because his stats cap super fast due to super huge growths.

We only get one more chapter out of using the Speedwing on Haar than we do waiting until 3-2. Obviously Speedwing!Haar is good, but a lot of people get better with a Speedwing (Titania, Boyd, Oscar etc.)

It's a moderately difficult chapter vs a piss easy chapter. Which would you rather have the Speedwing used in? Edited August 2, 2009 by Lord Raven

[-Cynthia-]

It's a moderately difficult chapter vs a piss easy chapter. Which would you rather have the Speedwing used in?

I don't think 2-E is so hard in comparison to the GM chapters to warrant immediate Speedwing use for Haar.

[grandjackal]

Aran has SOME potential to get BEXP Speed because his stats cap super fast due to super huge growths.

You have any clue how much BEXP he needs to get relevent speed out of the deal? An insane amount. You're better off not bothering. Not even worth it, he is a point short in the speed cap to be relevent in the doubling department against auras, so you might as well give him the brave lance. He puts that to good use anyways, he's got the strength.

[Narga_Rocks]

This is long, because Mia was brought up and I disagreed with things. I'm like that. :D

I don't want you to feel like I'm trying to force you to respond, though. I just wanted to get some things out there since I haven't gone over some of it before.

A Thunder with who? Shinon? Then she gets +8 Avoid and +2 Defense and +2 Strength. Except that Shinon's pretty much the only Thunder affinity and there are many other pairs he can go with that will arguably make them more useful as well; Ike/Shinon comes to mind.

Shinon actually wouldn't mind fire. I don't see the benefit of Ike x Shinon. It takes even more work than Ike x Mia already takes to reach A and the earth is wasted on Shinon since 28 mt isn't exactly good enemy phase production in 3-2 on. He doesn't even get anything better until the end of 3-11, and can't use it till 3-E. Since Shinon generally won't get attacked much he's fine with just his thunder, or even supportless. Ike's also doing fine with just his earth. Shinon wouldn't mind a +mt support anyway. Helps him do more damage to halbs, giving some ORKOs he wouldn't have otherwise, even with silencer. Also, some warriors along the way will be left with just 1 hp without it. Not to mention, since he isn't doubling swordmasters he can pull a bit more damage on them, possibly making the difference between a OHKO for some other unit and not. Plus, Shinon can't just be left sitting on his own 2 spaces from Ike in range of enemies, since he likely just silenced something and nobody was there to change out his weapon to the crossbow (bad though it is) since Ike was attacking something else, and now 2 or 3 enemies are taking no damage on enemy phase.

What chapter is this and what level is she? If this is by Chapter 4-3 then I see it as pretty unlikely. Maybe Level 20/8-9 by the start of the endgame compared to Level 20/8-9 for Stefan is a viable comparison, but that seems like you're favoring Mia too much.

I already said 4-E-1, since they don't compete in 4-3/4-4. Besides, she'll start 4-1 with 20/2 or late 20/1, and there's 60+ enemy units by the end of 4-1.

There are 17 units going to endgame, of which: Micaiah, Sothe, Sanaki, Kurthnaga and Ena don't count since they aren't going to 4-1/4, and your heron doesn't take attack exp anyway.

So there are 11 units to disperse among 3 different teams. Of which, Ike must go to 4-1/4, so oh well. But, assuming you are bringing along 1 royal, that means 9 units are dispersed among 3 teams. So you are looking at ~3 units + Ike to seriously train in 4-1/4. That means, whichever units you actually plan to take to endgame can pretty much get as many kills as they can in part 4 without any respect to some kind of "fair" number of kills. Meaning, Mia can easily reach 20/6 in 4-1, and 20/10 by the end of 4-4. There are enough things to kill and enough opportunity that she can get enough kills + attacks to get there.

But let's look at 20/8 anyway.

This time I'm actually going to assume some use of bexp in part 3 when she gets close to a level in chapters after capping stuff.

Without bexp increases:

48.9 hp, 29 str, 36.2 skill, 36.55 spd, 25 lck, 24 def, 17 res.

With some bexp:

48.9 hp, 29.15 str, 36.2 skill, 36.55 spd, 27 lck, 25 def, 17 res. (I'm not even assuming too much improvement here, even though there could be more)

Also, 115 avo after Ike's stars, and 51.15 mt with the vague katti thanks to her own affinity.

Stefan has (at 20/9 somehow, with just 5 units that he might kill, but I suspect he needs to kill all of them to get to 20/9):

53.55 hp, 27.5 str, 37.6 skl, 36.6 spd, 20.15 lck, 21.4 def, 16.5 res.

So, Stefan has 93+15=108 avo after Ike's stars, and 47.5 mt with the vague katti.

It should be noted that Mia is 3HKOing every single general in 4-E-1 (well, aside from the cover tile ones), and 1RKOs the snipers (though only Shinon should be attacking the double bow sniper, what with Shinon's 3 range). Stefan 4HKOs the generals and 3HKOs the 1 sniper he can safely attack. While it's true that at this time Mia is possibly not doritos the best candidate by far for adept anymore, giving one of the three adepts to Stefan is pointless. Plus, Mia is still just as good a candidate as, if not better than, anyone else looking to grab one of the three adepts.

And Mia has 3.6 def more than Shinon, safety from halb crits, safety from 4-E-2 sniper crits if daunt is nearby, and the 4.6 hp gap is more than covered by the def gap after 2 hits.

Further, pretty much any support is bringing up something. Even wind would mean she wins avo by 15, same with thunder/dark, light/water/thunder means she wins def by 5.6, fire/water/dark means she can now 3HKO generals with a tempest blade, if it matters, earth means she basically isn't getting hit by much. Basically, whatever affinity she chooses, she beats his offence and his durability considerably.

Wrong.

Mia starts out pretty mediocre damage wise. Until you get Steel Blades. But at the start, guess who's beating her? Oscar is tying, Titania, Shinon, Ike, Gatrie, and eventually Haar when you get him.

Mia tends to 2-3 round, sometimes 4 round things early on.

4 round? aside from generals, who? And generals might be a bit more rounds, but we aren't exactly swimming in generals at this point.

You get steel blades in 3-2. Before then, 24 mt and 26 mt but doubling. So the generals are basically laughing at her, but she doesn't have to attack generals. in 3-P she:

3HKOs swordmasters, so Adept gives a large 1RKO %, though she might want to keep her distance given they 3HKO her too and have 3% crit against her.

4HK0s warriors, so she 2 rounds and a crit will mean death. She's pulling a ~10% crit rate on them, so 19% chance of killing. It should be noted if that 45% str growth happens to pull through at any point in these two chapters then the wo dao also pulls a 4HKO, meaning a ~30% crit rate, or 51% chance of killing.

So how does this stack up with her competition?

There is one 19 spd warrior, and he has 14 def so wo dao is already 4HKOing, giving her a 51% chance of killing him. Who has 23 spd in your team? Shinon and Ike. Shinon has a better chance of killing if the attacking is done on player phase, but otherwise he's using his brand new crossbow (the 19spd/14def guy is in 3-1) and is doing 28 damage with an 11% crit rate, so 20.79% chance of killing. I don't feel like calculating expected value of damage but lets call it even, since she's more likely to kill but when she doesn't he does 8 more damage. On player phase, he wins. He has 29 mt with the killer bow so he does more damage when he doesn't crit and he's more likely to crit. He also can use Rolf's steel bow and do even more damage when he doesn't crit, but is less likely to crit than wo dao Mia, but more likely to crit than steel sword Mia (by 1.79 %). The rest? Ike ORKOs with his ettard, and nobody else doubles, so they'd need 34 mt to match Mia's not critting damage, and while a killer axe could allow a OHKO it is less likely than that 51% and aside from Titania will cause less damage when it doesn't crit.

The other warriors have 20 spd, so now Ike is counting on a crit with Ettard for a OHKO (and doing 21 damage without a crit, or 22 with a str proc, tying Mia), and that's less likely than Mia critting. The rest aren't doing better now, and only Titania/Gatrie/Boyd can pick up a killer weapon to count on a OHKO. These warriors have 15 def so if Mia didn't pull str on level up she's holding a steel sword to preserve the 3HKO. As such, she does 22 damage, and they need 37 mt to manage that. They don't get that with a killer axe. They fall short. So they'll have a slightly higher crit chance (27 over 19 for Titania, 26 over 19 for Boyd, 25 over 19 for Gatrie). If Gatrie pulled a level he might match her non-crit damage. So they all can be slightly better at killing, and cause about the same damage as her if they don't. Boyd does like 4 less, though. Anyway, she's basically even, cause if they want to do more damage they'll have no chance of OHKO, or they can cause the same or less and have a slightly better chance of killing. Either way, she isn't doing so badly. If she procs str, she blows them out of the water with a 51% chance of killing. Only Shinon beats her outright, that's it, and even he isn't guaranteed a ORKO, he's just got a better shot than she does. Keep in mind, though, until 3-2 when the part 2 units can cart over two killer axes, only one of Boyd/Titania/Gatrie can actually have the killer axe at a time.

So she's losing to Shinon, and barely losing to one other unit. But isn't Shinon (with Rolf on the other) using the ballista in 3-P to get the fire sages down to 1HKO for the laguz? That takes up some of his turns.

Halbs:

Here's an actual problem. All but one Halb in 3-P and 3-1 combined have 19 AS, so Ike stomps all with his 100% ORKO with Ettard, though like everyone else, including Mia, a thicket causes problems with that for some of them. But there aren't many thickets in 3-1. There's more in 3-P, though, so that can hurt Mia a bit with Warriors, but I don't remember if they are all on thickets. Really it just hurts her wo dao production, since the steel sword is still a 4HKO. Anyway, back to halbs:

Titania/Boyd/Gatrie still don't double, but they still pull an actual chance of a OHKO, and of course Boyd can increase his with brother help, but I didn't mention that earlier since I'm mentioning it here and on some turns it's constraining, other turns it isn't. Anyway, Mia is a 5HKO, and only does 16 damage to these guys in 2 hits. Basically, she'd need someone to do 20 damage (with 38 mt) in order for her to finish it off, or for someone else to finish off her work. Some units have that, but not many. With a crit, though, she drops them to 4 hp and even Mist can finish one off.

Anyway, she isn't so great against Halbs and Generals.

There aren't many snipers, but she's 4HKO with steel sword again, so it's about the same as the warrior situation, only when she or someone else don't pull a crit the enemy just has fewer hit points. She's still winning by 1 damage, or 4 in the case of Boyd. They still pull a bit better crit. Either way, she's just losing outright to Shinon and Ike.

Sages are a little problem, since now 21 spd doubles all but four, so Titania and Oscar join the ranks of ORKOing. Mia clearly loses to Ike, Shinon, Titania, Oscar since they all ORKO, though Oscar can't do it to fire sages with a Javelin, but Mia can't exactly enemy phase them anyway. So now she loses to 4 units, but the rest still aren't ORKOing and she can cause 28 damage with a steel sword, 30 to thunder sages. They'd need 40 mt to match that, and nobody is pulling that this early unless Gatrie took the steel poleaxe from Titania. Plus Mia's looking at another nice kill% with adept, certainly better than those that don't double. So she's 5th out of 11 against sages, not exactly great but not the end of the world.

Interesting thing, though, those thunder sages in 3-1? They have 18 crit. Mia's base lck is 18, so only Oscar and Titania and Rhys are immune to being critted. 25 and 24 mt on those guys means Ike's facing a 4% chance to die and Shinon could take 30 to 33 damage. Not a big deal for Shinon, but Ike might be better off attacking something else.

Bishops she ORKOs so yay.

She loses badly to generals, loses a little to halbs, loses to four units against sages, only loses to 2 units to the 4 sages with 18 speed unless Oscar procs speed (3 of the 18 spd sages are in the mid to last part of 3-P, so Oscar might not have even leveled yet). Loses handily to only one for most warriors and barely loses to 1 of 3 units against the same, ditto for snipers, though now she loses handily to Ike as well.

As for the bosses,

For the first, Mia risks a 3% chance of death and needs either adept + crit (if she has adept) or double crit (both with steel sword equipped) to take him out, and without any activations only does 16/39 damage, leaving 23 damage and no unit has 41 mt at this point, unless Gatrie got a level and str. So not so great on the first.

For the second,

She now only does 12 damage in two hits and even a double crit won't do it. She'd need 2 crits and adept, and his 31 mt causes a fairly high chance of death because of the killer weapon he holds. Jerk.

Yeah, she does get better over time,

Then 3-2 comes along.

Lets look at base level Mia in 3-2 with a steel blade (wyrmslayer for dragonmasters, you could technically have 2, but if not then she's competing with Ike for it) and C support. 31 mt.

ORKOs dragonmasters.

ORKOs sages. Still not critted by elthunder, but since they have 17 spd there are others that can, too.

ORKOs bishops. wow, amazing.

3HKOs swordmasters, leaving them with 1 HP after 2 hits and adept giving the best kill rate any unit in your team could possibly have. Sadly, she's still likely facing a crit rate and being 3HKOd.

3 or 4HKOs halbs. There's like, two, same number as swordmasters, and she leaves the 4HKOd guy with 1 HP.

3HKOs all paladins except 2 guys with 19 def, which she'd leave with 1 hp after the third hit. The rest die in 3 hits. These things have speeds between 16 and 18, so some of your other units occasionally 1RKO.

She could hide in a corner in 3-P and 3-1 and still be doing pretty well in 3-2, though she'd need to leave her corner a few turns to make her support with whatever unit, but with 2 levels she's looking at a 69.75% chance of getting at least 1 str point, turning those 1HP remaining ones into ORKOing swordmasters and 3HKOing halbs and the two remaining paladins.

By the way, a forge pulls off the 3HKOing halbs and ORKOing swordmasters with a base level Mia with C support just as well. Not to mention how that same forge with crit will cause insane kill rates with adept and still rather good ones without.

I'm not sure what level you'd like to give her each chapter, but Mia basically continues along 3HKOing everything she doesn't 2HKO except generals, and against a fair number of units that can't double halbs/warriors/snipers is stomping their offence fairly hard. This includes Titania if she doesn't reach 25 speed for doubling halbs and warriors, and she'd need to promote by 3-10 to keep doubling halbs and warriors, since some of them are already getting 22 speed at this point. Oscar until he promotes, since he fails from 3-5 on, except 3-7 where he barely makes an appearance. Haar until he promotes from 3-5 on, except in 3-7. Either way Haar needs a speedwing or promotion doesn't help, and still needs to get 6 or 7 levels by 3-7 as well as a speedwing to double there. Ike is borderline for doubling them until he gets str and skl capped and starts getting spd forced into him through slowplaying and bexp. Shinon only doubles these things on player phase, and until 3-4 and the silencer isn't ORKOing halbs anymore, and without a mt support will also soon stop killing halbs again anyway, though we can eventually forcefeed str into him with bexp. On enemy phase even if you trade the silencer he's looking at 4HKOing stuff and relying on ~20% chance of getting at least one crit, and again even that hope goes away after 3-3 without a mt support since 28 mt starts 5HKOing halbs. And bexp doesn't help with that.

Basically, if we just look at her offence, she's one of your best units from 3-2 on. Well, 3-2 has a lot of paladins, so maybe more like 3-3 on.

Doesn't seem to take much time, does it?

but the fact is that Stefan is still comparable to her. I'm not arguing Stefan > Mia by any means, I'm arguing that they're comparable on equal levels near the end, and she doesn't blow Stefan out of the water enough for Stefan to suck or be unusable or whatever.

Zihark might with an Earth support, but definitely not Mia.

Um, Mia with an Earth support stomps Stefan so hard he'll feel it until we are killing Ashera's auras. If you deny her the earth support, why not deny Zihark his? Nolan is better served by a def support, since he attains 3HKO in part 3 faster and avo isn't exactly reliable for him there anyway. Volug might like it, but are you taking Volug to endgame too? We have 4 royals, giffca, and 2 hawks that are probably better than him by a lot, at least damagewise where the royals are concerned. The hawks have other reasons to be better.

Ike doesn't have any issues giving his earth to Mia, it means someone that matches his move goes along with him, the Ettard can ORKO some things he'd need a forge to ORKO otherwise. Plus, she has better offence than most of the rest of the GMs, and the only thing holding her back is being 2 HKOd for a few chapters then 3HKOd by the stronger enemies by 3-7 or something, depending on what level others think is reasonable. Gatrie doesn't need earth, his durability is fine after crowning, and without a crown his offence is inferior. Of course, crown-wise he's doritos Of course, he should have the crown, but the point is earth is a waste on him. Titania is probably Mia's best competition, but since people seem to like Oscar on this site well enough he's a perfect match for her. They can build support points in 3-4 when everybody else is actually winning the chapter and have an A for 3-5, and Ike isn't without a support in 3-4 and 3-7 and isn't pigeonholed in 4-4 if he wants to keep his support. Besides, for Ike mt > defence anyway, since his avo is usually sufficient durability. Not to mention he does far more ORKOing of generals in 4-E with a mt support than without one. Plus, Oscar and Titania can move faster than Ike, so it's good to match movement. Everyone else has inferior offence and inferior pre-support avo, meaning afterwards Mia barely gets hit while others still do much more frequently, and while maybe they can use their offence a bit more freely than before, I don't see it helping efficiency as much as giving Mia earth. So why not make one of your best offensive units actually able to make use of her offence? There's actually a better argument for giving Mia earth than there is to give it to Zihark.

Besides, Zihark, especially an Earth x Earth Zihark, has similar mt issues to Stefan. He's looking at, what, --/15 coming out of part 3? That's with paragon at least once in part 3, though if you are planning on bringing him he likely should get anyway. Then maybe --/20/6 in 4-E-1. Maybe --/20/7?

27 mt, or 47 mt with the vague katti. Isn't even ORKOing warriors/halbs in 4-4, but I guess I'm just discussing 4-E-1 and beyond with comparisons to Stefan. Also 4HKOing generals in 4-E-1, and 3HKOing the two snipers. Then he needs 52 mt in 4-E-2 for the halbs, which Mia has at --/20/10 or --/20/11, simple enough after 4-E-1. Zihark needs bexp, basically, and will still likely need --/20/15 on top of whatever gains bexp might have given him. He's not getting there. Mia actually needs 53 mt for the warriors, though, so without --/20/12 she's not likely getting that. Still a fairly easy level to reach, and Zihark will never get it, not with Earth x Earth, anyway.

Though since the generals seem to have dropped in def in 4-E-2, he might pull 3HKO on them now.

Helping lots? Not necessarily. Especially since she doesn't gain much more EXP than your higher leveled units and she's farther from promotion. That's what I mean by "work," because Stefan doesn't really compete for any of that early on; he comes in with pretty good stats from the get-go.

At level 7 she gains a fair bit more than the level 11 and beyond guys. She especially gets a lot more than Titania and Shinon. And while she's farther from promotion, that isn't exactly a problem. You can generally raise 3 or 4 extra units and still be fine. For example, you could only be taking Ike/Mia/Shinon/Ilyana to endgame from the GMs that show up before 3-11 and raise extras like Mist/Gatrie/Haar/Heather/Nephenee and still get all of them at or near promotion by part 4(those names are an example, and can be replaced by others rather easily). Besides, it isn't really work to tell Mia to stand next to Ike in front of 5 or 6 enemies and watch most of them die and clean up the rest with the weaker units you are training. Mia doesn't need to compete (scrounge for kills), the others compete against her. I could just imagine Nephenee or Oscar praying in the background during enemy phase "please don't let Mia crit/adept, please don't let Mia crit/adept".

Just saying, Stefan is inferior to the only two units that matter in the comparison. He'll have about equal str with Zihark, though his str will grow faster, but Zihark won't get hit. Mia crushes him offensively. Mia x Ike, obviously, won't be as good for her in 4-E-2. 4-E-2 doesn't seem to matter to most people here, though, since Ike can end it so quickly, so it doesn't matter that Mia x Ike makes Mia worse in 4-E-2 than Mia x someone else. Still, overall for 4-E, she's much better. Plus she can actually ORKO the non fire spirits even on cover tiles thanks to 53 mt. Stefan needs a support with a unit that just showed up and 10 levels. The levels might be doable, but at this point I wouldn't even give 10 levels to Mia before 4-E-4 if she started 4-E at level --/20/8. Fortunately she only needs --/20/12 or --/20/13. Then there is using parity on the corner auras. To combine with Tibarn, though, he only needs 29 str, so with the same 4 levels he's basically even in 4-E-5. Though for this task Mia only ever needed --/20/8, but that's not relevant, I guess.

Edited August 2, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Lord Raven]

Narga_Rocks: Congrats, you owned me. I'm speaking much of my arguments from my personal experience though, I've yet to fully settle back into debating; though I trained like 6 units and they were all in their third tiers right when 3-E started during my HM run. Boyd, Shinon, Ike, Titania, Haar, Callil, Gatrie. And that felt like the only way I could do it, so that's why I'm hammering Mia so much and praising Stefan; I thought Mia's needing of extra levels would be a bit more detrimental early on as a result, because I severely underestimate the amount of EXP you may truly need to get by.

Though, personally, I don't see their parameters as all that much different enough that Stefan can't completely replace her in the event that Mia cannot be used. I kinda think this is the point I'm trying to make now. Maybe Stefan is inferior to her, but a +3 Defense and +4 attack advantage vs a bunch of EXP; whichever one is more important seems more player dependent than logic dependent, because even if GM chapters are easy it's still tough to get EXP.

Stefan by no means is > Mia, once again, but Stefan can make a good enough Swordmaster for the endgame if you want one and didn't bother with Mia. And that's why I think he should more or less stay. Volke with Baselard is kinda the same except he's offensively better than Sothe at this point (note; offensively, not overall) except Baselard probably has like 4 less might. :|

I don't think 2-E is so hard in comparison to the GM chapters to warrant immediate Speedwing use for Haar.

When your only consistent forms of defense, really, are like Haar and Brom taking on many enemies (depending on where you position them; Haar can take the right pretty damn well because he can take more hits than Brom, and Brom can take the left because he'll be getting attacked less and the Archer or Sniper there can help pick people off) whereas everyone else is either too frail (Neph), too weak to Crossbows (Elincia), or too inconsistent (Mordecai) to do things. Haar makes this process easier, in my opinion, especially with a Speedwing to kill whatever he needs killed.

You have any clue how much BEXP he needs to get relevent speed out of the deal? An insane amount. You're better off not bothering. Not even worth it, he is a point short in the speed cap to be relevent in the doubling department against auras, so you might as well give him the brave lance. He puts that to good use anyways, he's got the strength.

oic Edited August 2, 2009 by Lord Raven

[-Cynthia-]

Narga_Rocks: Congrats, you owned me. I'm speaking much of my arguments from my personal experience though, I've yet to fully settle back into debating; though I trained like 6 units and they were all in their third tiers right when 3-E started during my HM run. Boyd, Shinon, Ike, Titania, Haar, Callil, Gatrie. And that felt like the only way I could do it, so that's why I'm hammering Mia so much and praising Stefan; I thought Mia's needing of extra levels would be a bit more detrimental early on as a result, because I severely underestimate the amount of EXP you may truly need to get by.

Narga said a similar thing, but counting "needing EXP" against a character doesn't really work unless that character isn't very useful. Mia however, is pretty handy in clearing the GM chapters, so getting some Exp in the process isn't a problem.

As for the rest I agree, Stefan should stay put, because while he probably isn't better than most units come 4-E, he can sort of replace them.

When your only consistent forms of defense, really, are like Haar and Brom taking on many enemies (depending on where you position them; Haar can take the right pretty damn well because he can take more hits than Brom, and Brom can take the left because he'll be getting attacked less and the Archer or Sniper there can help pick people off) whereas everyone else is either too frail (Neph), too weak to Crossbows (Elincia), or too inconsistent (Mordecai) to do things. Haar makes this process easier, in my opinion, especially with a Speedwing to kill whatever he needs killed.

Haar having a Speedwing makes 2-E easier, but Titania having a Speedwing makes 3-2 to 4-E easier(giving Haar the Speedwing would make these chapters easier too obviously). If using the Speedwing on Haar meant that we could get an extra 5 chapters of use of it or whatever it would be more reasonbale to give it to him, but as it stands he's only getting 1 more chapter's use out of it.

[Lord Raven]

Narga said a similar thing, but counting "needing EXP" against a character doesn't really work unless that character isn't very useful. Mia however, is pretty handy in clearing the GM chapters, so getting some Exp in the process isn't a problem.

At best it'd be a minor point off.

If using the Speedwing on Haar meant that we could get an extra 5 chapters of use of it or whatever it would be more reasonbale to give it to him, but as it stands he's only getting 1 more chapter's use out of it.

1 chapter more > 0 chapters more. I think it'd be better off with Haar if you're a bit more aggressive in Chapter 2-E, but if you want to use it on Titania (who is... 3-4 levels away from reaching her third tier and also has a good speed growth that'll help her catch up) to make her life easier, then by all means go for it. It's one of those things that still feels subjective, but I think it's better overall for Haar to rampage 2-E with it -- arguably harder than what all your GMs will have to go through in any of the coming chapters. Edited August 2, 2009 by Lord Raven

[Narga_Rocks]

Narga_Rocks: Congrats, you owned me.

Sorry if you felt that way, it isn't about owning. It's just about trying to get her part 3 respect. Well, and talking. The back and forth is fun to me, for some reason. And I'm sure if Vykan reads it and chooses to respond he'll have things to say that hurt the argument.

I'm speaking much of my arguments from my personal experience though, I've yet to fully settle back into debating; though I trained like 6 units and they were all in their third tiers right when 3-E started during my HM run. Boyd, Shinon, Ike, Titania, Haar, Callil, Gatrie. And that felt like the only way I could do it, so that's why I'm hammering Mia so much and praising Stefan; I thought Mia's needing of extra levels would be a bit more detrimental early on as a result, because I severely underestimate the amount of EXP you may truly need to get by.

Getting 7 (well, 6) units to third tier for 3-E is impressive, considering I just got most of them to level 19 or 20, though I never had issues winning. I like Calill (in this game), so I think it's cool you got her to third tier. That took me until 4-5, well, I got her to level 20 in 4-2 and gave her the last crown in the base since no one else needed it anymore. Still somehow got her to 20/18 for 4-E-5, no idea how that happened. She overshot a bunch of units that I thought I was using more. Anyway, as I said, a lot of my units were really late 2nd tier at 3-E, and all but Calill promoted during their first part 4 chapter. Well, Mia promoted during 3-E and so did Haar, but everyone else, I mean.

Though, personally, I don't see their parameters as all that much different enough that Stefan can't completely replace her in the event that Mia cannot be used. I kinda think this is the point I'm trying to make now. Maybe Stefan is inferior to her, but a +3 Defense and +4 attack advantage vs a bunch of EXP; whichever one is more important seems more player dependent than logic dependent, because even if GM chapters are easy it's still tough to get EXP.

I don't know, I guess I just focus on how someone is better. I admit he's not bad in 4-E, just takes the vague katti from superior options. I can see if you don't use Mia that he's a pretty good option, and as I said he can do well in 4-E-5. I just don't like how he's basically the third best trueblade and we only bring 10 units we can choose to endgame. And I like Zihark not getting hit (though I never brought him to endgame) and Mia ORKOing stuff and having a higher 3HKOd threshold. The weird thing is, a +3 or +4 advantage can make a big difference in tactics sometimes. The craziest stat though is speed, with which Stefan obviously doesn't have issues. 1 point of speed can make a great difference in part 3, or part 4.

Stefan by no means is > Mia, once again, but Stefan can make a good enough Swordmaster for the endgame if you want one and didn't bother with Mia. And that's why I think he should more or less stay. Volke with Baselard is kinda the same except he's offensively better than Sothe at this point (note; offensively, not overall) except Baselard probably has like 4 less might. :|

I guess I don't mind if he stays. Even Cynthia (who says 20 units will be better than he is at that point) says she's okay with his current position. I don't know what my issue is with Volke, though. I thought he was great in PoR. Here, I guess his crit rate is nice, and baselard basically means he matches the crit of a swordmaster with a knight card on his/her silver critforge. And the mt of that. I think I just don't like him making Sothe go from sub-mediocre to total suck. At least Sothe rarely has issues finishing kills when he has the baselard. Take that away, sometimes Sothe can't even finish kills. I guess I just find Tormod more useful in his chapters than being less good than other options. Tormod basically has to be bad enough to not be deployed to be worse in my mind, and even that wouldn't hurt his position much because he's forced in 1-7 and 1-8. I don't even deploy him in 1-E and with that I still think he should be > Stefan and Volke. Anyway, if you could dump Sothe and send in Volke I'd likely be willing to at least see Volke > Tormod > Stefan. Good thing Stefan's luck is not 5 in this game, though. His luck irritated me so much in PoR. He had crit rates against him from so many things that nobody else did. He got blicked by a mage using elthunder (I think) in Chapter 21 (I think) and I never used him again in any playthrough (I actually meant to keep him out of range, but apparently missed by one). Oh, except he takes on the boss of chapter 15 for me every single time. But that's the only thing I let him do.

When your only consistent forms of defense, really, are like Haar and Brom taking on many enemies (depending on where you position them; Haar can take the right pretty damn well because he can take more hits than Brom, and Brom can take the left because he'll be getting attacked less and the Archer or Sniper there can help pick people off) whereas everyone else is either too frail (Neph), too weak to Crossbows (Elincia), or too inconsistent (Mordecai) to do things. Haar makes this process easier, in my opinion, especially with a Speedwing to kill whatever he needs killed.

Yeah, Haar and Brom are pretty nice there. Though if you don't actually care about attacking the generals in the east point actively, Mordy is fine just eating grass 2 out of 3 turns. I like having Haar and Brom basically alternating in the west because as I try to move forward sometimes I can't use the same guy at the front twice.

Oh, and Elincia is my offence in that chapter. Or a fair amount of it. She ORKOs everything but like one halb with 19 spd, and 2 hits the crossbow users with 100% hit so they can't exactly counter if I do it player phase. Of course, she's also the healer, so she's pulling double duty. Marcia takes the thunder mages, though I hope she doesn't get critted because while she'll survive it means I have to heal her. Lets me clear out the left side so I can get the coin. I like coins, because the more coins I get the more likely I'll actually get something good, like knight cards for swordmasters and twin swords or at least axe cards for axes and lances and Laura's light tome. And it makes getting the dracoshield easier, and the second olivi grass.

Haar having a Speedwing makes 2-E easier, but Titania having a Speedwing makes 3-2 to 4-E easier(giving Haar the Speedwing would make these chapters easier too obviously). If using the Speedwing on Haar meant that we could get an extra 5 chapters of use of it or whatever it would be more reasonbale to give it to him, but as it stands he's only getting 1 more chapter's use out of it.

Well, Titania has issues in 3-4 and 3-7, but otherwise I kind of agree. Still, I'm a fan of having Ilyana cart over the db's speedwing and having both Titania and Haar with wings, though I've never actually done that myself. Only ever gave Titania a speedwing on HM to make things a bit easier.

Edited August 2, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Lord Raven]

I'm speaking frontline defense; Elincia rapes offense and healing.

[Narga_Rocks]

I'm speaking frontline defense; Elincia rapes offense and healing.

Yeah, I agree. 36 hp and 21 def isn't bad, it just means we can't let her take what Brom and Haar take. Well, assuming Brom's leveled a bit. Otherwise the difference is Brom isn't vulnerable to crossbows and doesn't clear space in front of him all the time.

[Lord Raven]

Brom clears a space in front of him at best every other time, though.

[Narga_Rocks]

Brom clears a space in front of him at best every other time, though.

That actually makes things good. He's like, 3HKOd or something, maybe 4, so if we keep him healed it doesn't matter if he kills sometimes and faces an extra enemy. Elincia has the same hp/def with amiti as base level Brom has, but she'd kill everything that walks up the stairs, until something kills her or she's cleared out everything in range.

[grandjackal]

Woop, didn't notice this post until just now.

Anyone can weaken for her. Mordy, Nealuchi and Lethe all do roughly the same damage. Lucia can too if she uses a weaker sword.

Yet who benefits most from it? Mordy's never getting S strike any time soon, Lethe just sucks regardless, and Lucia's in the same boat and has to worry about exp rather than just a weapon rank.

That’s fine, but you were blowing off the possibility of using Brom. Using him makes 2-2 more efficient anyway, so using him passively (or not at all) in 2-E wouldn’t help Nealuchi that much.

Which case, him getting in Neal's way on his quest for strike rank is not an issue, is it?

If being super durable but not doubling is suck, then sure. Let’s move Mordy, Skrimir, Tauroneo and Aran down the list this instant.

Those guys at least have other reasons to be higher. Mordy's just nigh invincible at times while hitting surely much harder, Skrimir is Mordy on steroids (Brom never really can boast being near invincible, can he?), Taur's got the DB to live with, treating him like he's Zeus, and Aran is sort of the same way. Brom just tough and that's sort of it. The GM are capable of better.

A 30% spd growth isn’t as bad as you make it out to be. Giving Haar a speedwing + levelling is obviously > just a speedwing. And remember that 22 AS won’t even double in 3-2 (actually it will but that’s because it’s paladin heavy. In 3-3 he already runs into trouble). The sooner he promotes, the sooner he gets another much needed +2 AS.

Why the hell not just crown him then? Not like he needs the later stats, he's meh at endgame regardless.

Speakign of laaagoooz, How many of you are aware that 24 speed is all you need to double all but swordmasters in part 3 all the way up 3-10? Because Lethe's got 24 speed.

I could actually see her rising...;;>> Though someone stop me if you must, but it involves Mordecai, and the fact they're eachother's fastest support...and that she has plenty of time and speed to build up strike level.

Edited August 2, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Narga_Rocks]

Speakign of laaagoooz, How many of you are aware that 24 speed is all you need to double all but swordmasters in part 3 all the way up 3-10? Because Lethe's got 24 speed.

Sadly, Lethe actually comes up 1 point short on halbs/warriors in 3-5 and 3-8 on top of the issues with 21 or 22 speed enemies in 3-10. Still, she's not in 3-5 so I guess the only issue with your statement is 3-8's warriors and halbs.

Her problem is a too high base level and low starting strength. Well, and cat gauge, but as a cat she can't really do anything about that either. I liked her in PoR so I'm still annoyed they started her at level 21 (effectively 42 transformed, gains exp slower than a crowned unit) without the stats to make up for it. She could've been fine if she was level 17, 1 higher than Mordy, just like last game. She wouldn't have been great or anything, but with a .5 spd growth she likely could've had 26 spd by 3-8 if she could just level, and her .35 str growth wouldn't have been so painful. It still wouldn't have gone well with her 9 base, though. I suppose with bexp she could get a good shot at a speed proc as is, but it would be expensive considering how little cexp she'll be getting. Bexp like a 20/11.5 unit or something, so it costs 3150 bexp on HM. Or maybe 3300. Either way, it's a fair amount, and each kill she makes only gets 1 exp (probably, not sure) so she reduces the bexp cost by 33 per combat, which still means a high cost. Even so, thanks to her base level and growth she isn't fixing str any time soon, and S strike only means 31 mt. By the time she gets to S strike 31 mt likely won't be enough for a 3HKO on halbs/warriors/snipers anymore.

I miss Lethe being good.

[Vykan12]

Sadly, Lethe actually comes up 1 point short on halbs/warriors in 3-5 and 3-8

Then give her an energy drop.

[-Cynthia-]

Then give her an energy drop.

It is a pretty good investment, +4 damage, +8 on a double, which Lethe does fairly often.

[grandjackal]

Sadly, Lethe actually comes up 1 point short on halbs/warriors in 3-5 and 3-8 on top of the issues with 21 or 22 speed enemies in 3-10. Still, she's not in 3-5 so I guess the only issue with your statement is 3-8's warriors and halbs.

Missed the ones in 3-8 ;;>>

By the way, it's 3-4, not 3-5. There's a grand total of 1 warrior she can't double.

Her problem is a too high base level and low starting strength. Well, and cat gauge, but as a cat she can't really do anything about that either. I liked her in PoR so I'm still annoyed they started her at level 21 (effectively 42 transformed, gains exp slower than a crowned unit) without the stats to make up for it. She could've been fine if she was level 17, 1 higher than Mordy, just like last game. She wouldn't have been great or anything, but with a .5 spd growth she likely could've had 26 spd by 3-8 if she could just level, and her .35 str growth wouldn't have been so painful. It still wouldn't have gone well with her 9 base, though. I suppose with bexp she could get a good shot at a speed proc as is, but it would be expensive considering how little cexp she'll be getting. Bexp like a 20/11.5 unit or something, so it costs 3150 bexp on HM. Or maybe 3300. Either way, it's a fair amount, and each kill she makes only gets 1 exp (probably, not sure) so she reduces the bexp cost by 33 per combat, which still means a high cost. Even so, thanks to her base level and growth she isn't fixing str any time soon, and S strike only means 31 mt. By the time she gets to S strike 31 mt likely won't be enough for a 3HKO on halbs/warriors/snipers anymore.

Her strength is fine for the most part, she's healthy enough damage prior, and it is partly thanks to a C with Mordy, which should be in effect by now (no way to argue this either. Fastest support Mordy's got that follows him into part 3. By the time another becomes active, the bonuses he would get compared to just supporting with Lethe would be negligeable). 2RKOs all but that one warrior, 3RKOs halberdiers (...Ok, that is a bit iffy), 2RKOs swordmasters with the best accuracy on your team, ORKOs mages(something anyone below 22 AS can't do), 2RKOs snipers, though she is pretty terrible against Generals.

Defensively, she has 66 avoid before leadership is accounted for, and has 51 HP, 18+1 defense(from Mordy), and 20+1 resistance.

4-5RKOd by the warriors at 64-63 displayed hit. Granted that's not great dodge, but she's able to survive just fine to some of the strongest enemies on the map. 5RKOd by halberdiers at 68-43 displayed hit. 8-6RKOd by swordmasters, no one can dodge these guys easily. If slayer effect is doubled and not tripled, it's a 5RKO from fire mages, if it IS tripled then a 3RKO. Thunder mages are doing 4 damage a shot to her, that's negligeable at this point. All this to 64-54 displayed. Snipers 5-4RKO to 64-52 hit. Generals 3-5RKO her to the sound of 51-43 hit. Defensively, she's doing pretty ok.

Now also consider she's had 2 chapters of being able to double part 2 with a quick building meter, and is doubling here as well. If 12 battles a chapter is rediculous, then nevermind this. However, she returns in 3-7, where there's still quite a few enemies below 21 AS, so she still doubles consistantly, and now might have S strike for 5 more damage a blow. She's now packing 32 ATK. A B with Mordy won't change dick, but why the hell not.

Still pretty much 2RKOing everything, but leaving them in quite lethal HP levels. However, this has helped her offense against generals and wyverns, now allowing her to 3RKO them, like pretty much most of your other guys. Laguz don't really need to level, they just need strike rank. Volug could have told you that.

Chapter 3-8 she sort of falls flat on her face. She starts 3RKOing basic enemies now thanks to not doubling. This however can be fixed. She needs 2 levels to get the speed she needs, 26 AS being quite healthy for a nice while too. However, it was brought up she has a problem in her starting level bogging her leveling speed. This is true, but consider how good she's been thus far. If she's killed plenty, her exp should at the VERY least be almsot enough for 1 level. Just fill the rest with a bit of BEXP, as Speed is her most 2nd most likely stat to rise, outside of HP.

Her only real problem would appear to be cat meter. Guess you have to manage more how she transforms and untransforms, but otherwise it seems she has more positive than just part 2.

I miss Lethe being good.

Don't give up hope quiet yet, though I miss it too. Cats got a shaft they didn't deserve.

Quick question though, which route you think would be best for Lethe?

Edited August 3, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Narga_Rocks]

Then give her an energy drop.

1 short of the speed value. So bexp + energy drop for 3-8.

It is a pretty good investment, +4 damage, +8 on a double, which Lethe does fairly often.

Yeah, especially after bexping spd, since she isn't getting levels from cexp in 3-4 and 3-7.

Still, though, I like using the 2-E energy drop on Heather and reset abusing 3 levels (1st turn of 2-2, 2nd turn of 2-E, 1st turn of 3-2) to steal the 3-2 bolting. As for tier list play, since that strategy is invalid I guess giving the 2-E drop to Lethe isn't so bad, or maybe the 3-5 drop, she'd only miss out on the extra damage in 3-4.

Missed the ones in 3-8 ;;>>

No problem.

By the way, it's 3-4, not 3-5. There's a grand total of 1 warrior she can't double.

Yeah, I know. I said she isn't in 3-5 so 3-5 doesn't matter. I just left the previous sentence in there since I didn't see the point erasing it.

Her strength is fine for the most part, she's healthy enough damage prior, and it is partly thanks to a C with Mordy, which should be in effect by now (no way to argue this either. Fastest support Mordy's got that follows him into part 3. By the time another becomes active, the bonuses he would get compared to just supporting with Lethe would be negligeable). 2RKOs all but that one warrior, 3RKOs halberdiers (...Ok, that is a bit iffy), 2RKOs swordmasters with the best accuracy on your team, ORKOs mages(something anyone below 22 AS can't do), 2RKOs snipers, though she is pretty terrible against Generals.

Well, all it takes is like 5 adjacents in 2 chapters, and considering how tight 2-2 is you could probably get a couple there, but 2-E is so easy to get 5 it doesn't even matter. Mordy would much rather have a C something than nothing, though that means even more Laguz are in use. And Brom and Nephenee likely wouldn't want to wait. As for Mordy changing in 3-8, He gets 1 mt, 1 def/res, 18 hit from Lethe. I guess there isn't really a C that can top that, considering he doesn't have much use for avo nor would 3 avo make much difference. The A support in 3-11 he and Lethe could have gives 2, 2, 27, again likely better than any B could possibly be. The only competition would be water/fire/dark/light/thunder because even 23 avo likely wouldn't help him much, and Ike and Oscar have better candidates than a guy that has so much def that avo doesn't mean much anyway. So Mist and Titania are his only other fast supports that can give a 3 to either mt or def/res or both, but Titania would likely be better served by Oscar and as for Mist, I don't know.

Anyway, I guess she doesn't have to be awesome to be okay, and if what you wrote up there is true then she seems okay enough.

Defensively, she has 66 avoid before leadership is accounted for, and has 51 HP, 18+1 defense(from Mordy), and 20+1 resistance.

4-5RKOd by the warriors at 64-63 displayed hit. Granted that's not great dodge, but she's able to survive just fine to some of the strongest enemies on the map. 5RKOd by halberdiers at 68-43 displayed hit. 8-6RKOd by swordmasters, no one can dodge these guys easily. If slayer effect is doubled and not tripled, it's a 5RKO from fire mages, if it IS tripled then a 3RKO. Thunder mages are doing 4 damage a shot to her, that's negligeable at this point. All this to 64-54 displayed. Snipers 5-4RKO to 64-52 hit. Generals 3-5RKO her to the sound of 51-43 hit. Defensively, she's doing pretty ok.

Yeah, her transformed durability is fine, I never complained about it. Swordmasters pull crit on her, but when it takes 2 or 3 crits to kill her anyway 3% isn't so bad anymore.

Now also consider she's had 2 chapters of being able to double part 2 with a quick building meter, and is doubling here as well. If 12 battles a chapter is rediculous, then nevermind this. However, she returns in 3-7, where there's still quite a few enemies below 21 AS, so she still doubles consistantly, and now might have S strike for 5 more damage a blow. She's now packing 32 ATK. A B with Mordy won't change dick, but why the hell not.

I don't mind 12 battles a chapter normally. In her case, if you plan to use her then she could eat grass and guard in 2-E which likely would give a fair number. 2-2 is only 7 turns long though so she'd need a fair amount of enemy phase exposure. It might be difficult but I could maybe see 8 or 9. 3-4 is annoying in that the enemies are mostly near the end and the laguz take care of some of the ones in the middle. You might be able to pull 8 or 9 combats there, I'm not sure. I could see S by 3-8 if you try hard enough, but I don't quite think 3-7 works.

Still pretty much 2RKOing everything, but leaving them in quite lethal HP levels. However, this has helped her offense against generals and wyverns, now allowing her to 3RKO them, like pretty much most of your other guys. Laguz don't really need to level, they just need strike rank. Volug could have told you that.

Ah, but Volug starts with 11 str and 13 spd and doesn't need a spd point until part 4 for doubling purposes and pulls 35 mt with S for part 3 and 40 mt with SS for part 4. Volug's a bit different than she is. Energy drop plus bexping for spd plus S strike will greatly help her, though, considering 36 mt with C Mordy and S strike is pretty good for part 3. 3HKOing with 26 spd would actually make Lethe a candidate for Adept, though Ulki and Mia have more speed. Cat gauge is a pain, though, and I'm sad they took away the whole "early transform, mid transform, late transform" stuff they had in PoR. It was great.

Chapter 3-8 she sort of falls flat on her face. She starts 3RKOing basic enemies now thanks to not doubling. This however can be fixed. She needs 2 levels to get the speed she needs, 26 AS being quite healthy for a nice while too. However, it was brought up she has a problem in her starting level bogging her leveling speed. This is true, but consider how good she's been thus far. If she's killed plenty, her exp should at the VERY least be almsot enough for 1 level. Just fill the rest with a bit of BEXP, as Speed is her most 2nd most likely stat to rise, outside of HP.

I don't know how much exp she gets for kills. If she's just getting 1, she isn't likely seeing more than 30 exp out of 3-4 and 3-7, probably less. If she at least gets something, it helps a lot to reduce the cost. And yes, bexp basically solves the spd thing, if we are willing to cough up the expense.

Her only real problem would appear to be cat meter. Guess you have to manage more how she transforms and untransforms, but otherwise it seems she has more positive than just part 2.

Yeah, if you just put it that way, she isn't entirely useless in part 3 so she could technically have more than part 2. I think that at least calls for someone giving a defence of Kyza as to why he should stay above her.

Don't give up hope quiet yet, though I miss it too. Cats got a shaft they didn't deserve.

I'm still bitter. I agree they got the shaft. Lethe and Ranulf were both pretty good in PoR.