Do you find someone's race a turn-off?

[Yuli]

But that's the thing, there is no valid reason to be racist.

I think this is going to be a long explanation, perhaps going to the root of racism. It's not as obvious as it may seem. First of all, no matter how harmless Yuli's stuff may seem, or how you might think her beliefs are justifiable, this is the same general manner that, say, KKK members go about "justifying" their beliefs. It's not too far of a stretch. In addition, as soon as you have a stereotype, any stereotype in your head, people will begin living up to that stereotype. You having that stereotype will mean that you will unconsciously see people in that stereotype. It's not necessarily her in particular, but the whole thought process. I mean, take Essau's pants example. Or even better, this one, which is true:

I grew up in a sour cream white community. Pretty much the only black guy I knew, and definitely the only one I had much contact with it WAS A COMPLETE AND TOTAL FUCKING ASSHOLE. But I realized that it was the individual. It's not at all representative of other people who look similar.

I guess my problem isn't that she has these tendencies, it's that she's DEFENDING them as reasonable. I mean, yes, many people will have bias and think about others stereotypically, but when it's pointed out, you shouldn't just say "Yeah, I know I'm racist, but guess what, I've justified it to myself and don't feel like trying to change."

Then why do you mention a "valid reason" when there is none? What's with that?

And I'm not like the KKK or any extreme racist person. I don't parade around showing off that I hate black people because I don't. I do not hate them. I simply don't trust them as much as other people.

I think you obviously know my reason for not trusting black people. If that isn't reasonable, then what is? Tell me, because I really would like to know for what reason racism is reasonable.

Edited December 26, 2008 by Yuli

[Defeatist Elitist]

It probably isn't very easy for her to change. Give her a break, you don't know what happened to her after all. And again, she never insulted them or said she thought that they are in any way inferior to others, just that she generally distrusts them. In a way, it's like drug use. People know it's bad and they shouldn't be doing it so much, but they can't stop, as much as they may want to.

Nothing of the sort. Drug use is either an addiction, or people doing it because it's fun. I understand it might be hard for her to stop, but as I said, my problem is that she made no effort to, and in fact, DEFENDED her racism.

Then why do you mention a "valid reason" when there is none? What's with that?

And I'm not like the KKK or any extreme racist person. I don't parade around showing off that I hate black people because I don't. I do not hate them. I simply don't trust them as much as other people.

I think you obviously know my reason for not trusting black people. If that isn't reasonable, then what is? Tell me, because I really would like to know for what reason racism is reasonable.

That's what I mean. THERE IS NO VALID REASON. That's what I've said this entire time. There is no reason where racism is reasonable. If there was, it wouldn't really be racism.

As to the argument that you are not extreme. I know. That is why, you will note, I quite clearly stated that I did not so much object with your particular beliefs, but the idea in GENERAL, because it is used by SOME people to justify such actions.

[Phoenix]

What is this? I'll tell ya what it is. CAUSE AND EFFECT. Nothing more, nothing less. Stop chalking it up to racism. That's too generic a term anyway.

[Yuli]

What's wrong with defending my view? How does it bother you that I'm defending the reason I don't trust black people as much?

[lolDeath]

What is this? I'll tell ya what it is. CAUSE AND EFFECT. Nothing more, nothing less. Stop chalking it up to racism. That's too generic a term anyway.

Then everyone should be suspected of being a rapist, murderer, child molester, and thief.

[Phoenix]

Then everyone should be suspected of being a rapist, murderer, child molester, and thief.

DAMN RIGHT

[Defeatist Elitist]

What's wrong with defending my view? How does it bother you that I'm defending the reason I don't trust black people as much?

Because it's wrong. It's a bad reason. What I was actually saying there is that I wouldn't be arguing with you here if you had said that you realized you were wrong, or were trying to change, which is what some people were implying, with things like "but wouldn't it be a natural reaction", and stuff like that. I'm hoping that I can move you to that stage, but hey.

[Yuli]

There is no wrong nor right for an opinion. I think that's the third time I've mentioned that to you.

Are you really reading my post or just skimming it?

[Defeatist Elitist]

There is no wrong nor right for an opinion. I think that's the third time I've mentioned that to you.

Are you really reading my post or just skimming it?

Just. Stop it. Please. I really am trying to cut back on the amount that I am an ass.

I have read all your posts. I see that you have said there is no right or wrong for an opinion. However, I clearly think that your reasoning is wrong, and put forward this statement for you "Either A)Your opinion is wrong, and opinions CAN be wrong, unlike what you stated earlier, or B)What you said is not really an opinion, and thus you're simply trying to validate it and say it is untouchable by saying it is an opinion". Either way, you're going to end up wrong. I made an example earlier of an "opinion" as you gave yours, which was drawn to a ridiculously exaggerated level, but I believe communicated the point.

[Phoenix]

This planet is a realm of tragedy. There's no commen sense in trusting anyone. Why get worked up cause Yuli doeesn't trust black guys as much as other races? It's not wrong, even if Yuli's not trying to fix it, because "Why bother?" Why fix what's not broken? It's a lack of trust. That's not wrong. Trusting others more based on a lack of specific and consistent occurences isn't wrong either. It's just CAUSE AND EFFECT. I honestly don't understand why the trust thing is even an issue. It's not like the people we run into are going to be living with us or even seeing us again. Kinda pointless...

[Defeatist Elitist]

I should add a C) to that statement "C) It is an opinion, but an opinion is an invalid and unreasonable basis for such a claim or idea, and thus is not valid in this situation"

Or a D) "D) It is an opinion and opinions are inherently wrong." :P

@ Phoenix: The trust thing doesn't matter, you're doing your characteristic "misinterpreting" thing. :P The problem is the fact that she treats Black People differently from other people simply because they are black.

Edited December 26, 2008 by ZXValaRevan

[Yuli]

Just. Stop it. Please. I really am trying to cut back on the amount that I am an ass.

I have read all your posts. I see that you have said there is no right or wrong for an opinion. However, I clearly think that your reasoning is wrong, and put forward this statement for you "Either A)Your opinion is wrong, and opinions CAN be wrong, unlike what you stated earlier, or B)What you said is not really an opinion, and thus you're simply trying to validate it and say it is untouchable by saying it is an opinion". Either way, you're going to end up wrong. I made an example earlier of an "opinion" as you gave yours, which was drawn to a ridiculously exaggerated level, but I believe communicated the point.

Stop what? I'm just discussing things with you. Is there a problem with me posting?

Anyways, opinions are opinions. There is no wrong nor right.

It's like religion. Some people say religion does not exist and some say it does. Both might be wrong, but both might be right.

Another example is the death of President Lincoln. Some people say he deserves it, but some say he didn't. Whose wrong? Nobody. Because it's a matter of opinion.

Understand now? I could try to think of some more examples if you don't get it. ;D

Edit: Didn't see the last post.

I treat black people differently not just because they are black. It's because they bothered me so many times before. I thought you understood. I guess not so I guess I might to have to explain things again. D:

Edited December 26, 2008 by Yuli

[Edorian]

I should add a C) to that statement "C) It is an opinion, but an opinion is an invalid and unreasonable basis for such a claim or idea, and thus is not valid in this situation"

Or a D) "D) It is an opinion and opinions are inherently wrong." :P

@ Phoenix: The trust thing doesn't matter, you're doing your characteristic "misinterpreting" thing. :P The problem is the fact that she treats Black People differently from other people simply because they are black.

...but based on bad experiences that leads her to act that way and as a result just having some trust issues with black people.(also do "black people" has to be capitalized? english is not my native language so Im just curious about it)

Nowadays you can't say almost anything because then you are labeled as something.

[Phoenix]

@ Phoenix: The trust thing doesn't matter, you're doing your characteristic "misinterpreting" thing. :P The problem is the fact that she treats Black People differently from other people simply because they are black.

I do that too, but with azn chicks. Can you guess why? ;)

It's still cause and effect though. Obviously she wouldn't trust them less if nothing had happened to her.

[Yuli]

...but based on bad experiences that leads her to act that way and as a result just having some trust issues with black people.(also do "black people" has to be capitalized? english is not my native language so Im just curious about it)

Nowadays you can't say almost anything because then you are labeled as something.

Black people does not need to be capitalized when used like that, but it might a matter of preference. ;D

Edited December 26, 2008 by Yuli

[Art_Dragon]

Oh come on, I'm really trying to be civil, but please don't stretch it.

I have read everything you've said in this thread. Multiple times. However, when it was pointed out that your racism was completely ignorant, you seemed to take issue with it. Racism however, is ignorance. What we're trying to say is that your racism is based on, well, nothing, other than the fact that Black people have harassed you in the past, which is not a valid reason.

The fuck, ValaRevan. I want you to grab the nearest dictionary, look up some good 1970 documentaries, and read up on what real racism is. And while you're at it, look up the word you so love to abuse.

[Defeatist Elitist]

Stop what? I'm just discussing things with you. Is there a problem with me posting?

Anyways, opinions are opinions. There is no wrong nor right.

It's like religion. Some people say religion does not exist and some say it does. Both might be wrong, but both might be right.

Another example is the death of President Lincoln. Some people say he deserves it, but some say he didn't. Whose wrong? Nobody. Because it's a matter of opinion.

Understand now? I could try to think of some more examples if you don't get it. ;D

I said stop... Well, it's hard to explain, I'll get back to you on that.

On to the opinions are not right or wrong. Did you read my last 2 posts? That kind of explains it. And don't get me onto the Religious thing, I'll just say now, there is something that is right. Proveably, and of course absolutely.

Lincoln's Death is something totally different entirely of course. Because "deserving" is a fickle and subjective thing.

Whereas "Black people are less trustworthy than white people" is not really in the same ball park.

[Defeatist Elitist]

The fuck, ValaRevan. I want you to grab the nearest dictionary, look up some good 1970 documentaries, and read up on what real racism is. And while you're at it, look up the word you so love to abuse.

What, racism?

I did already: "Racism, by its simplest definition, is discrimination based on the racial groups to which people belong."

I know what real racism is. Trust me. I'm not saying that she is like some anti christ who will destroy all society. I'm just saying that the basic idea and mindset, as well as a refusal to back down from that position, and justification of it are all problems.

[Yuli]

Well, I can't stop unless you tell me what I should stop doing because I don't know I'm suppose to stop doing.

Lincoln's death was an example. It wasn't meant to be dragged onto the discussion. Same with religion. It seems like you still don't understand so I thought up with another one.

Let's say a man found saw somebody dropped a dollar. He picks it up and pockets it. Some might say that's wrong and he should returned it. Some other person might say finders-keepers. Again, it's a matter of opinion. There's neither wrong nor right.

Understand noooooow? :3

[Defeatist Elitist]

Well, I can't stop unless you tell me what I should stop doing because I don't know I'm suppose to stop doing.

Lincoln's death was an example. It wasn't meant to be dragged onto the discussion. Same with religion. It seems like you still don't understand so I thought up with another one.

Let's say a man found saw somebody dropped a dollar. He picks it up and pockets it. Some might say that's wrong and he should returned it. Some other person might say finders-keepers. Again, it's a matter of opinion. There's neither wrong nor right.

Understand noooooow? :3

Maybe I can explain what I want you to stop doing... Basically, what you just did.

Because I already said. THOSE ARE TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS. That opinion is really an opinion. Seriously, reread my thing where I listed the 4 possibilities for what this is. It should explain this.

[Yuli]

Posting? I should stop posting? Oh no, I can't do that. I can post as long as I follow the rules, right? Right.

How is my opinion not an opinion? You just proved it is an opinion, didn't you?

My view is that I have a reason to trust black people less.

Your view is that my view is wrong and is bad.

There. Two different views on the same subject at hand. Is either one of us right? Nope. ;D

Edited December 26, 2008 by Yuli

[Edorian]

Black people does not need to be capitalized when used like that, but it might a matter of preference. ;D

thanks

What, racism?

I did already: "Racism, by its simplest definition, is discrimination based on the racial groups to which people belong."

I know what real racism is. Trust me. I'm not saying that she is like some anti christ who will destroy all society. I'm just saying that the basic idea and mindset, as well as a refusal to back down from that position, and justification of it are all problems.

yeah because today she's just having trust issues but tomorrow who knows, she may be the reason for the destruction of black people

If instead of black people she had her bad experiences with white people (or any other race) then she would also have the same reaction (or at least I would), it isn't JUST because they are black.

Imagine this, you have a cookie, and then you eat it.... that should make things clearer now

wait what?

[quanta]

Wow, A++ guys (and it should be obvious who "guys" is if you read my following comments; if you're unclear, PM me on this). Somebody can't totally suppress all negative biases and feelings with logic and is actually cognizant of this fact and open enough to admit it, and you instantly jump on her like she's David Duke. It's not like you know she goes around treating black people like trash because of it ( or maybe she does, but my point is you have absolutely no way of knowing unless you know her IRL or she put pictures up on myspace of her at a nice family gathering lynching black people).

If you guys really believe you don't have some biased, illogical behaviors due to personal experience, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

And just to double our fun, let's go pull quotes from a few of you from the topic so we can see you pulling about the same level of bullshit off while simultaneously berating others for it. It's really quite amazing.

You sound like a pretty typical scared, sheltered little white kid who watches too much TV.

Hey, stereotyping is totally A-OK if it's about white people right? Or people who watch too much TV? Or scared sheltered children (what if they're black?)? By your logic (Hint: this is sarcasm, your arguments possess as much logical validity as simply beating someone with a baseball bat in response), you must have got that conception from the media or anti-white racist propaganda! There's no way it could be due to bad personal experiences (because racism totally never happened before there was TV or mass media... OHWAIT). You know what they say about living in glass houses and throwing stones...

Your personal experience doesn't mean shit. For a human mind to actually believe a stereotype based on personal experience the stereotype must generally be presented beforehand and then reinforced by some out of area force, in this case television and the like.

Sources please. Then explain why she's not meeting any exceptions to the general rule using your indepth knowledge of her psyche.

Do you, by any chance, not know the definition of the word "ignorance"? I mean you are willingly conforming to it and it's already been said by others, there is not much to explain.

I would applaud your rhetorical question... if you had used the word "ignorance" properly. Go type "define: ignorance" into google and look at the various definitions of ignorance (I'll just use the top one)

ignorance- the lack of knowledge or education

Clearly, that's not her problem. She knows these things logically speaking, but that doesn't mean she'll be able to act upon them easily or modify her behavior accordingly.

Now, you could jump to your own defense by saying, "Oh, I meant those other meanings of ignorance, like ill-mannered or rude", but then you'd be in your own little glass house, throwing stones... again. Not to mention, she hasn't been particularly rude or ill-mannered.

Do you like, live in a suburban part of your city where there's no blacks and everyone in your little suburban country utopia think that all blacks are loud, rude, ingroant, low-pants wearing, gold-teeth having, gold-chain hanging hoodlums?

For one day in your life, please, just turn off your TV, turn off your computer and leave your utopia for one day. Explore everything outside suburbia and find that not all blacks want to "get in your space/face" and that not all blacks are alike.

Seriously your little "I don't think my post was ignorant. More like a bit stereotypical. Unfortunately, I don't know how to word what I'm feeling about it without getting too racist and blunt." is freakin' smokescreen about your true views about blacks. I can tell by your context of your message.

Oh wow, where do we start? The pigeonholing that is implying she lives in a suburban area with no blacks? The lack of political correctness in not balancing this out by asking if she's a poor Latino girl in a mixed neighborhood of Latinos/Blacks in downtown L.A.? The assumption that all people with any racist tendencies must necessarily be even more racist than they admit?

Now, all that said, I think the proper way to deal with people who have illogical biases is to just encourage people to behave in a good manner in spite of their prejudices until they can overcome them. There's no guarantee of results, but at least you're not causing them to push back in the wrong direction.

Edited for grammar

Edited December 26, 2008 by quanta

[Defeatist Elitist]

Posting? I should stop posting? Oh no, I can't do that. I can post as long as I follow the rules, right? Right.

How is my opinion not an opinion? You just proved it is an opinion, didn't you?

My view is that I have a reason to trust black people less.

Your view is that my view is wrong and is bad.

There. Two different views on the same subject at hand. Is either one of us right? Nope. ;D

Just forget the thing I said you should stop doing, it will get nowhere.

You don't seem to understand this. What I'm saying is (well, what I think is the best option out of those) is that you have a poor opinion on Black People in general. It is "a personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty". That kind of explains it. Your opinion therefore (if you accept it as an opinion) is unreasonable for you to apply to actual situations. Need me to explain a little more?

[Yuli]

Okay, I will stop asking what I should be stopping because I don't what I should be stopping. I'll stop doing that, seriously. :x

How is my opinion unreasonable? Well, I'll say your opinion is unreasonable. How's that?

See what you get? We can all go yappity-yap over whose opinions are better or you could accept that neither one of us is right and it's all in the matter of opinion.

Simple eh? :3

Edited December 26, 2008 by Yuli