Do you find someone's race a turn-off?

[Defeatist Elitist]

thanks

yeah because today she's just having trust issues but tomorrow who knows, she may be the reason for the destruction of black people

If instead of black people she had her bad experiences with white people (or any other race) then she would also have the same reaction (or at least I would), it isn't JUST because they are black.

Imagine this, you have a cookie, and then you eat it.... that should make things clearer now

wait what?

First thing you said I'm just going to leave. I really don't mean it AT ALL like that. I said that is the mindset, not that she will be doing that. In fact, her position is pretty minor, and really actually superficial, the only real reason I'm arguing this at all is to argue, to try to point out stuff, and to try to change her mind I guess.

As to your second point, that's kind of my point, isn't it? You shouldn't judge a race, ANY RACE by just that. I mean, I'd be having the same argument if it was white people or Mexicans she was talking about.

@Quanta: You're really mostly right in a lot of what you say here. Again, I'm only really arguing here for the sake of arguing and do draw out this point. I know that most people have stereotypes and biases, but I hope that like all flaws I have, that people will point them out and try to defeat them.

[Art_Dragon]

Let me add on this little factoid: Preference is preference. If I decide that black chicks aren't my thing, because most of my experiences with them are of the drama variety; it doesn't imply that I stop talking to black chicks, or i'm openly rude to black chicks, it's just that if one wants to go further then "friendship", she'll have to jump through a few more loops to prove to me that she isn't the garden variety black that I've been exposed to.

Preference based upon behavior is probably the most logical decision one can make. And that's the least finicky thing involving preference. I've yet to hear you bitch about girls who decides to not date "guys who play wow", one of which I personally know.

[Yuli]

I think what Edorian meant is that I'm trusting black less not just because they are black.

Not "just" as in "justice".

"Just" as in "just because."

I think. Haha.

Unless you already knew that. :x

Edited December 26, 2008 by Yuli

[Defeatist Elitist]

Okay, I will stop asking what I should be stopping because I don't what I should be stopping. I'll stop doing that, seriously. :x

How is my opinion unreasonable? Well, I'll say your opinion is unreasonable. How's that?

See what you get? We can all go yappity-yap over whose opinions are better or you could accept that neither one of us is right and it's all in the matter of opinion.

Simple eh? :3

You misunderstand.

I'm saying (not in my opinion, I'm stating this as a tentative or disputable fact) that your opinion of black people is not a valid excuse for acting any differently towards them. If you do not act any differently towards them, then I apologize, I thought you had sort of implied it by saying you don't trust them as much and try to avoid them.

[Defeatist Elitist]

Let me add on this little factoid: Preference is preference. If I decide that black chicks aren't my thing, because most of my experiences with them are of the drama variety; it doesn't imply that I stop talking to black chicks, or i'm openly rude to black chicks, it's just that if one wants to go further then "friendship", she'll have to jump through a few more loops to prove to me that she isn't the garden variety black that I've been exposed to.

Preference based upon behavior is probably the most logical decision one can make. And that's the least finicky thing involving preference. I've yet to hear you bitch about girls who decides to not date "guys who play wow", one of which I personally know.

This wasn't about her sexual preferences actually. That's why I argued it. She stated that she avoided black people intentionally because they got in her space and were loud and obnoxious.

[Yuli]

There you go again with the "valid excuse". You said there's no such thing as a "valid excuse". Then why are you bringing up that phrase? According to you, there's no such thing as a "valid excuse" in racism.

In fact, I don't trust black people as much as other people, but I don't avoid them.

If one sits next to me and isn't making feel me uncomfortable, I'm not going to jump up and switch seats.

Edit: Didn't see last post. D:

Yes, most black people in my area are loud and obnoxious, but not all of them. Some are the opposite, polite and respectful.

Edited December 26, 2008 by Yuli

[Paradox]

ITT: "Look! I'm not racist! I can suppress any cognizant honesty and bash people for being self-aware! Why be self aware when you can be politically correct? OH GOD PLEASE DON'T THINK I'M A RACIST"

[Edorian]

First thing you said I'm just going to leave. I really don't mean it AT ALL like that. I said that is the mindset, not that she will be doing that. In fact, her position is pretty minor, and really actually superficial, the only real reason I'm arguing this at all is to argue, to try to point out stuff, and to try to change her mind I guess.

As to your second point, that's kind of my point, isn't it? You shouldn't judge a race, ANY RACE by just that. I mean, I'd be having the same argument if it was white people or Mexicans she was talking about.

@Quanta: You're really mostly right in a lot of what you say here. Again, I'm only really arguing here for the sake of arguing and do draw out this point. I know that most people have stereotypes and biases, but I hope that like all flaws I have, that people will point them out and try to defeat them.

Yeah the first thing I was just joking around, I never thought you meant it that way.

On to the second point, true you shouldn't discriminate any race at all, that's easy said but we are humans, we are flawed (and not all flaws can be eliminated thus making humans unable to reach perfection). Also as she has said, she has reasons (the bad experiences) and though you may not think it is enough to justify her behaviour, but she is the one who lived those experiences and acts based on -what I seem logical- behaviour. The brain tries to avoid any kind of damage, when you see something or someone who has hurt you previously you automatcally react in a defensive manner.

Also I remember reading that she does have some black friends so really as I just see it she just doesn't trust black strangers but that doesn't mean she is unable/incapable of talking/ trying to socialize with them.

Edited December 26, 2008 by Edorian

[Defeatist Elitist]

There you go again with the "valid excuse". You said there's no such thing as a "valid excuse". Then why are you bringing up that phrase? According to you, there's no such thing as a "valid excuse" in racism.

In fact, I don't trust black people as much as other people, but I don't avoid them.

If one sits next to me and isn't making feel me uncomfortable, I'm not going to jump up and switch seats.

Edit: Didn't see last post. D:

Yes, most black people in my area are loud and obnoxious, but not all of them. Some are the opposite, polite and respectful.

Yes, it is not a valid excuse, precisely BECAUSE there is no valid excuse. And vice versa. See what I'm saying? What I mean is that your racism is unreasonable because it has no sound underlying trappings (no racism does). Maybe it would be easier if I said that in general racism was unreasonable?

[quanta]

I know that most people have stereotypes and biases, but I hope that like all flaws I have, that people will point them out and try to defeat them.

I would agree with that. I just think people should make an attempt to go about this the right way rather than the wrong way (well, obviously... most people would agree you should do things the right way rather than the wrong way XD )

Oh, and just to make an on-topic comment,

I find girls with a golden-tone skin particularly attractive or cute and not just in a sexual sense. Certain tans lead to this sort of tone, but I prefer the natural non-radiated skin to be that tone. A couple racial combinations I've seen lead to this tone are Latino/Asian and African/Indian.

It's not even close to a deal-breaker for me though (and I probably partly have this preference due to my current girlfriend having that skin tone, not sure; it's almost like anti-racism. O_O )

[Yuli]

Then why are you bringing up the phrase "valid excuse" when there is none like you said?

Again, it's your view that my reason is unreasonable. I don't find my reason unreasonable. I have an actual reason why I behaved like that.

What's your reason that my reason is unreasonble and your reason is reasonable?

[Defeatist Elitist]

Yeah the first thing I was just joking around, I never thought you meant it that way.

On to the second point, true you shouldn't discriminate any race at all, that's easy said but we are humans, we are flawed (and not all flaws can be eliminated thus making humans unable to reach perfection). Also as she has said, she has reasons (the bad experiences) and though you may not think it is enough to justify her behaviour, but she is the one who lived those experiences and acts based on -what I seem logical- behaviour. The brain tries to avoid any kind of damage, when you see something or someone who has hurt you previously you automatcally react in a defensive manner.

Also I remember reading that she does have some black friends so really as I just see it she just doesn't trust black strangers but that doesn't mean she is unable/incapable of talking/ trying to socializing with them.

Again, her "problem" is pretty damn minor. In that specific case I'd simply say that peoples appearance shouldn't be what you use to predict their actions, at least if it's not something they can choose.

@Paradox: FUCK POLITICAL CORRECTNESS YOU CRACKER! Now, excuse me, I'm off to get some fried chicken in this car I stole. Oh wait, wrong stereotype, I'm white. Off to buy something expensive with my parents money with this expensive car I bought with my parents money.

[Yuli]

I have a reason why I chose to trust black people less. It's not like because their skin color is different.

I'll bold the reason, so you can see it better.

Reason: The majority of black people have bothered me many times.

There. That's the reason. Up there? See? See? Seeeee? ;D

Edited December 26, 2008 by Yuli

[Defeatist Elitist]

Then why are you bringing up the phrase "valid excuse" when there is none like you said?

Again, it's your view that my reason is unreasonable. I don't find my reason unreasonable. I have an actual reason why I behaved like that.

What's your reason that my reason is unreasonble and your reason is reasonable?

I'm bringing up the phrase "valid excuse" because I have to in order to say there isn't one. It's like if in the Matrix the kid says "There is no spoon", and Neo goes "Well then why are you mentioning it?"

I've explained (as have other people) why avoiding or not trusting people because of their appearance is pretty unreasonable.

[Defeatist Elitist]

I have a reason why I chose to trust black people less. It's not like because their skin color is different.

And what I'm saying is, that your reason is basically:

A fair number of people who look like this have been rude to me. Thus I will not trust people who look like this.

I'm just saying that people's appearance rarely belies their actions, unless they're like carrying a gun or have tons of scars or something. :P

[Yuli]

Let me try to explain it once more. Hold my hand okay? This might get confusing.

I do not care what a person looks like.

Okay? You understand that? Good.

It's their actions that matter.

Understand? Goodie. Here's the last part.

Because of their actions, not their looks, I trust them less.

There! All done!

Wasn't that easy? ;D

Edited December 26, 2008 by Yuli

[Paradox]

I would also like to point out it's not really racism if you don't like a culture. Or maybe it is, but why is that wrong? If a certain group of people tend to have certain values and behaviors which you don't find enjoyable, why are you obligated to say you like them just because?

If I said I don't like ORCS because they generally burn my farm to the ground, rape and pillage the village, and kill and steal my livestock, how is it bad/unreasonable for me to dislike Orcs? Those are not things that I enjoy. I admit, I'm using an extreme example to drive the point into your heads which don't seem to grasp this. You can replace 'ORCS' with any race, and the actions with any general tendency.

Before it comes up, don't even bring up the stereotypes or generalizations thing. If 99% of Orcs rape, pillage, and burn, are you supposed to be 100% completely fine with orcs because of Vronak the Pure, who spends his days tending to wounded animals, and baking muffins for underprivileged children? No! That's an outlier!

Now, the reason I worried about using such an extreme example is because I was worried many of you have the subtlety of comprehension to realize to what degrees it applies and it doesn't. My point is that people are permitted to have opinions based on generalizations which they have personally observed and cannot be faulted for this (It's not prejudice if it's post-judice!). That is completely different from choosing to act maliciously due to these generalizations. Just because you don't like someone's culture isn't a reason to be anything but civil and fair.

[Defeatist Elitist]

Let me try to explain it once more.

I do not care what a person looks like. Okay? You understand that? Good.

It's their actions that matter. Understand? Goodie. Here's the last part.

Because of their actions, not their looks, I trust them less. There! All done!

Except that is not what you're saying. You said that you trust black people less because of them bugging you in the past.

That is judging them on their looks. Because people who look like them have acted a certain way, you assume that they will act in a similar matter. That is not a reasonable deduction.

[Yuli]

That's exactly what I'm saying! Read!

Their actions are that they are harassing me before.

I could care less if they look different.

[Defeatist Elitist]

I would also like to point out it's not really racism if you don't like a culture. Or maybe it is, but why is that wrong? If a certain group of people tend to have certain values and behaviors which you don't find enjoyable, why are you obligated to say you like them just because?

If I said I don't like ORCS because they generally burn my farm to the ground, rape and pillage the village, and kill and steal my livestock, how is it bad/unreasonable for me to dislike Orcs? Those are not things that I enjoy. I admit, I'm using an extreme example to drive the point into your heads which don't seem to grasp this. You can replace 'ORCS' with any race, and the actions with any general tendency.

Before it comes up, don't even bring up the stereotypes or generalizations thing. If 99% of Orcs rape, pillage, and burn, are you supposed to be 100% completely fine with orcs because of Vronak the Pure, who spends his days tending to wounded animals, and baking muffins for underprivileged children? No! That's an outlier!

Now, the reason I worried about using such an extreme example is because I was worried many of you have the subtlety of comprehension to realize to what degrees it applies and it doesn't. My point is that people are permitted to have opinions based on generalizations which they have personally observed and cannot be faulted for this (It's not prejudice if it's post-judice!). That is completely different from choosing to act maliciously due to these generalizations. Just because you don't like someone's culture isn't a reason to be anything but civil and fair.

Disliking Orcs isn't racist, they're a different species. :P

But I agree that disliking a culture isn't racist. If I dislike people who want to eat my heart, I'm not racist. If I assume that every person who looks a certain way wants to eat my heart, and then dislike them because of that, then I am.

Extreme, but hey.

[Yuli]

Here's something.

African-Americans. I usually try to avoid them. They usually try to get into my area space.

I don't like that.

My first post to this topic. See anything that relates to how they look? I don't think so.

[Defeatist Elitist]

That's exactly what I'm saying! Read!

Their actions are that they are harassing me before.

I could care less if they look different.

I am reading. You are really not understanding here.

I KNOW THAT THEY HARASSED YOU BEFORE! What I'm saying is that means you're judging them on their appearance. You're saying "That guy looks like those guys who were dicks before, I better be careful about him."

Anyone else see the flaw in her logic her? I'm sure I'm not the only one.

[Defeatist Elitist]

Here's something.

My first post to this topic. See anything that relates to how they look? I don't think so.

How can you avoid them without knowing they are African American? Unless you can tell without seeing them.

I'm saying that race = appearance. That is generally how people judge race.

Edited December 26, 2008 by ZXValaRevan

[Yuli]

Instead of posting questions, why don't you just post it out? Or is there something wrong? :3

Edit: Didn't see the last post.

You could have mentioned that earlier. Do you know how much easier it would be if you posted that you see race equals apperances? I was looking at them as two different subjects.

Edited December 26, 2008 by Yuli

[Paradox]

I am reading. You are really not understanding here.

I KNOW THAT THEY HARASSED YOU BEFORE! What I'm saying is that means you're judging them on their appearance. You're saying "That guy looks like those guys who were dicks before, I better be careful about him."

Anyone else see the flaw in her logic her? I'm sure I'm not the only one.

What. about. generalizations. don't. you. understand?