Mekkah vs Legault

[Mekkah]

Yes, I went there.

Edited January 5, 2009 by Mekkah

[Mekkah]

also, my opponent is Legault, not Reinfleiche. typo.

[riariadne]

I was wondering what was going on there. You can change the title by editing the first post (something I noticed today).

Edited January 4, 2009 by Reinfleche

[Mekkah]

Would you mind if I switched to Ranulf? Nealuchi really sucks.

[Legault]

Sure, Nealuchi really sucks. Try Ranulf.

[Mekkah]

Good luck.

So we have two characters in entirely different armies for most of the game.

Nolan gets to be pretty good in the supershort 1-1, good for him. Then for the next few chapters, the game starts throwing overpowered prepromotes at you that make everyone else obsolete, pretty much. 1-2 gives you Sothe, and then 1-5 throws in Volug. As if Nolan wasn't getting owned badly enough, Tauroneo joins and gets to exchange TINK for FATALITY with something lame like a Bronze Lance for 1-6, and Zihark is there as well. Then halfway through 1-7 you get the Laguz Emancipation Army (Vika, Muarim and Tormod, but mostly Muarim). In 1-8, Nailah helps to rewrite the definition of overkill. Then Micaiah is all alone in 1-9 until the Burger King shows up, and in 1-E you have the entire deal at your disposal.

So basically Nolan gets to do better than crap like Edward, Micaiah, Leonardo, Meg, Fiona, etc, which isn't saying a lot, but he gets stomped into the ground more and more pretty much every chapter by prepromotes. Thus, I would call Nolan pretty average overall in Part 1.

Then we have the commercial break of the game, Part 2, and then Part 3 joins in. He first makes his debut in 3-4. What's interesting to note is that Ranulf does not take up a unit slot for the Greil Mercenaries. Now, do we have any overpowered units around that make Ranulf run with the tail between his legs?

25 Ranulf (A Strike)

36 atk, 30 AS -- 83 avo, 55 HP, 26 def, 20 res

Pray tell, what are some good GM units? Ike? Titania? Haar?

15/0 Ike (Ettard)

38 atk, 24.4 AS -- 64 avo, 46.6 hp, 22.6 def, 7.6 res

Ike wins 2 atk, and loses everything else. Not by insignificant amounts either. Hax.

20/1 Titania (Steel Axe)

40 atk, 25 AS -- 70.6 avo, 42.4 hp, 23.8 def, 19.1 res

Titania wins 4 atk, and again, loses everything else.

20/1 Haar (Steel Axe)

43.6 atk, 24.6 AS -- 66.3 avo, 52.6 hp, 30 def, 10.8 res

Haar has probably the best case of them all, since he wins by even more Atk, but he still isn't really beating Ranulf. 7.3 atk vs 5.4 AS on offense, and then 4 def vs everything else on defense. If anything, Ranulf is winning.

Then Ranulf takes a break in 3-5, and Micaiah's band reappears to show off their suck against an army that's pretty much led by Ranulf and Skimrir (except they're not on the field). Nolan makes a better show than in 1-E, since Muarim, Tormod and Nailah have left, but Volug, Zihark and Sothe are still there, and what's even worse, the literally invincible Black Knight returns. So despite receiving Tarvos, he is still not high and mighty - he's once again an okay character in an army with both awesome and useless units.

3-7, 3-8, 3-10 and 3-11 are again quite full of Ranulf pwn. Then in 3-12 and 3-13 Nolan gets to show off his worth again...oops, this time we're accompanied by actually competent NPCs, as well as Tauroneo, the walking choke point. 3-F has more Ranulf kicking ass, and it happens to be the Dawn Brigade's ass.

Then Yune appears and says "let's be friends", and they finally join forces so we can directly compare them. For levels, Nolan is part of the "I dun get no playtime" Brigade, but we'll be nice and say 20/10 Warrior, and Ranulf will be 30.

20/10 Nolan (Tarvos)

40 atk, 23 AS -- 65 avo, 43 hp, 22 def, 12.1 res

Lol, he's pretty much losing everything to _base level Ranulf_ if he has something like Steel Axe equipped, but Tarvos lets him win 4 Atk. In fact, he is pretty much the same as 15/0 Ike with Ettard now, and Ike loses soundly.

30 Ranulf (A Strike)

38.4 atk, 32.8 AS -- 90.8 avo, 57.8 hp, 27.2 def, 20.8 res

So Nolan, how's that 1.6 atk win doing for you? Once Ranulf finishes his 70 assaults and gets S Strike, even that evaporates into a 3.4 atk win for Ranulf.

Now, army choices. Ranulf happens to be forced with Tibarn's group, which allows for massive EXP opportunities in 4-5. Nolan would go with Tibarn on his wildest dreams (in more ways than one), but unfortunately not everyone can get a spot there.

For the final chapters, I will keep this brief. After mastery skills and Shove, there's 35 capacity left for Ranulf and 30 for Nolan, giving him slightly more flexibility qua skills. His higher stats allow him to use one of those many skills you have lying around to better effect. For example, at the levels posted above, Ranulf has 33% chance of Adept per hit, while Nolan has 23%. Ranulf has a 66.5% chance of triggering Adept at least once in two attacks, while Nolan's is only 40%. Ranulf has an 11% chance of triggering Adept on both hits, and Nolan only 5.2% or so.

You will probably go "but Ranulf is Laguz! transform omg!". I'd answer: "who cares about transforming if you own this much?". He starts off transformed, so all he has to do is use Olivi Grass on player phase, and then pwn on enemy phase. You get three sets of Laguz Stones at the start of 3-4, then you can buy six before the final chapter, and two sets of Laguz Gems before you enter the Tower of Guidance. Then there's the option of giving Ranulf Wildheart, which allows him to shift at points where being transformed is more important than having wtfrape stats (e.g. taking out groups of weaker enemies). Even if he untransforms, one Olivi Grass + one battle puts him back into transformation, and his huge 55 base HP lets him survive that one battle quite easily, quite likely two.

Summary: Ranulf always owns, Nolan only owns as badly in 1-1.

Edited January 6, 2009 by Mekkah

[Legault]

Good luck to you too.

Before anything, I'd like to make something clear.

Yes, you guessed right. Nolan IS Chuck Norris.

Chuck totally obliterates anything alive. Where he makes a battlefield, nothing is left. Anything that touches the other end of his axe will automatically have reached the end of its lifespan. His earth affinity (it's earth because Chuck loves the earth he created), will give a really hax avoid bonus, that helps the team. When he promotes to a warrior, he'll rape even more massively flying units, and when he gets the Tarvos, he becomes practically untouchable. When he becomes a Reaver, he totally rewrites the definition of overkill. Any other unit is powerless to stop him, even demi-god Ike. On the other hand, Ranulf is the baby sitter of a laguz army. Apparently all other more important jobs were given to laguz that actually matter. When fighting, he runs around as a useless person that can only counter attack (and please, 18 attack?), and when transformed, his beastiality is overshadowed by other beast's beastialities called Greil Mercenaries. Not only that, but Ranulf also spoils the ending to Ike and everyone else. Yeah, he not only sucks as a unit, but also as a character. Just to point out the obvious, Chuck >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ranulf

Yeah, I copied that style from CATS, sue me

Well now, in all seriousness, let's get on to the debate (although it is true that since Nolan is Chuck Norris, I can insta-win this debate and Chuck can insta-win the game)

First of all, supports.

Chuck -> Earth Affinity (arguably the best affinity)

Ranulf -> Wind affinity (arguably the worst affinity)

Earth Affinity >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wind Affinity

'Nuff said, Nolan wins, moving on.

Nolan gets to be pretty good in the supershort 1-1, good for him. Then for the next few chapters, the game starts throwing overpowered prepromotes at you that make everyone else obsolete, pretty much. 1-2 gives you Sothe, and then 1-5 throws in Volug. As if Nolan wasn't getting owned badly enough, Tauroneo joins and gets to exchange TINK for FATALITY with something lame like a Bronze Lance for 1-6, and Zihark is there as well. Then halfway through 1-7 you get the Laguz Emancipation Army (Vika, Muarim and Tormod, but mostly Muarim). In 1-8, Nailah helps to rewrite the definition of overkill. Then Micaiah is all alone in 1-9 until the Burger King shows up, and in 1-E you have the entire deal at your disposal.

Indeed, Nolan gets to be pretty good in the supershort 1-1, good for him. In 1-2, the fact that Sothe joins is irrelevant, since he joins too far away to be an instant help, where Micaiah and his other useless friends are about to be raped. By the time Sothe arrives, 2 turns have passed, and Nolan has already calmed the storm, with a little help of his friends. (Beatles reference ftw) Nolan is pretty good in 1-3 being the only unit, sides from Sothe and Aran, that can actually survive more than 2 hits. In 1-4, Tigers and Cats fear the name of Chuck Norris and his mighty axe. This means that Sothe, Aran and Chuck will be guarding the entrances. After ferals de-transform, everyone will be exterminating everything on sight, gaining tons of experience. 1-5 throws in Volug, which is uber for the time, at least unti the end of the part, but I digress. Fire mages are abundant in this chapter, so he will have to play it easy. On the other hand, Nolan has no problem with fire magic, which doesn't stop him of performing just as good as he has been. Then comes 1-6 1 and 2 (which really, is the same thing). Zihark enters the fray, which is his best support option. That way, they'll get a super special smexy awsome bonus from both their earth affinities. So, Zihark isn't competition for him, on the other hand, he' a boon (because let's face it, his avoid isn't something to brag about... yet). Tauroneo is phail for just being there that chapter. Let's not count him. In 1-7 come the 3 most useless units in the whole game. Why would you even give them kills? Just make Sothe rush them and make them join your group and don't make them kill anything. Because, seriously. They rejoin like, a chapter before endgame. In 1-8, again, Laguz Emancipation Army = the biggest phail FE has ever seen.... at least from FE7 onwards. Nailah and Volug are another story though. Nailah will probably be busy saving the villager on the swamp together with Volug, leaving the whole right side to be solo'd by the Dawn Brigade. 1-9 is just a cutscene made a chapter to level up Micaiah, and 1-E is straight forward. Nothing special there.

So basically Nolan gets to do better than crap like Edward, Micaiah, Leonardo, Meg, Fiona, etc, which isn't saying a lot,

I agree with you there.

but he gets stomped into the ground more and more pretty much every chapter by prepromotes. Thus, I would call Nolan pretty average overall in Part 1.

And you'd be making a mistake. Let's break it down.

Sothe - point taken

Volug - Useful until 1-7. Not useful again until part 3. In all reality, doesn't outperform Nolan, just better.

Zihark - Support partner. Co-performs

Tauroneo - lol at only being there one chapter

Laguz Ema- phail for reasons stated above

Nailah and BK - They outperform not only Nolan, but every other unit on the game before part 4. Doesn't count.

So.... no. Nolan is competent enough not to be outperformed by anyone but Sothe. Volug is just about slightly better than him for having better mobility, among others.

Then we have the commercial break of the game, Part 2, and then Part 3 joins in. He first makes his debut in 3-4. What's interesting to note is that Ranulf does not take up a unit slot for the Greil Mercenaries. Now, do we have any overpowered units around that make Ranulf run with the tail between his legs?

The answer is no, because Ranulf is the only overpowered unit that is ridiculously overlevel'd.

Then Ranulf takes a break in 3-5, and Micaiah's band reappears to show off their suck against an army that's pretty much led by Ranulf and Skimrir (except they're not on the field).

Which are retreating pretty much because Ranulf sucks at being a baby sitter. Bad Ranulf. Moving on.

Nolan makes a better show than in 1-E, since Muarim, Tormod and Nailah have left, but Volug, Zihark and Sothe are still there, and what's even worse, the literally invincible Black Knight returns. So despite receiving Tarvos, he is still not high and mighty - he's once again an okay character in an army with both awesome and useless units.

Volug now is on the process of becoming awsome, but atm, he sucks. Bad. Like reallly, really, really, really, really bad. Idk if I made my point. Zihark has been adressed and BK is literally invincible, as you said. He's not making Nolan look bad, he makes everyone look bad. God, he even makes Ike look bad at this point. The Tarvos is an awsome weapon that makes him even more durable. Despite not being able to double just yet, the extra hit and attack really gives him an edge. Pair this with a really cool A support with Zihark, and you got an untouchable killing machine.

3-7, 3-8, 3-10 and 3-11 are again quite full of Ranulf pwn. Then in 3-12 and 3-13 Nolan gets to show off his worth again...oops, this time we're accompanied by actually competent NPCs, as well as Tauroneo, the walking choke point. 3-F has more Ranulf kicking ass, and it happens to be the Dawn Brigade's ass.

No comments except on 3-10 on. Units by now should be reaching 3rd tier. By then, they are catching up with Ranulf. Specially since they now have their really awsome occult skills (unless you're a trueblade... bad luck being stuck with Astra). So, Ranulf performance remains the same, yet everyone else's improves. Not good for him. In 3-12 and 3-13 you ARE stuck with competent NPC that most of the time will be in halt, otherwise, they'll just lure the ridiculously high amount of enemies in = death. So, be sure to leave that direct command in halt. Because, y'know, carelessness leads to lifelessness. (Except for 3-13, after turn 8, put the NPC in roam to see the sheer awsomeness of 3-13 archer). Better to trust the units that you command yourself. 3-F is just easy. 4 turns at the most, and the chapter is over. 80 kills isn't that much. If you're that commited, you bring all those useless units on your team and kill them.

Then Yune appears and says "let's be friends", and they finally join forces so we can directly compare them. For levels, Nolan is part of the "I dun get no playtime" Brigade, but we'll be nice and say 20/10 Warrior, and Ranulf will be 30.

Dammit, spoilers. For the record. He does get around the same playtime as everyone else. 9 chapters on part 1 + 3 on part 3. I think that's most than any other party can count. And your aproximation isn't being nice, it actually is pretty accurate. However, I'd like to make some changes in your comparisons. (Tarvos is +4 def, not +5... just saying)

20/10 Nolan (Tarvos) A Zihark

40 atk, 23 AS -- 110 avo, 43 hp, 21 def, 13 res

30 Ranulf (A Strike)

38.4 atk, 32.8 AS -- 90.8 avo, 57.8 hp, 27.2 def, 20.8 res

So yeah, indeed Nolan gets beaten here. However, Nolan is a much better candidate for BEXP, since he already maxed skill, magic (useless, but still maxed) and res. This will only allow him to cap everything else. On the other hand, Ranulf's only way to level up will be BEXP, since he won't be getting decent amounts of exp until part 4, where all enemies are pumped with exp due to their shiney golden color. This will have an impact on his skills.

Now, army choices. Ranulf happens to be forced with Tibarn's group, which allows for massive EXP opportunities in 4-5. Nolan would go with Tibarn on his wildest dreams (in more ways than one), but unfortunately not everyone can get a spot there.

Yeah, who wouldn't want to be with such a hawt hawk (.... heheh, that rhymes). Okay, but seriously, he can go with the GM, and get a lot of exp there too. Ike will be getting most of the exp, and the other GM are already overleveled, so this is Nolan's opportunity to grow.

For the final chapters, I will keep this brief. After mastery skills and Shove, there's 35 capacity left for Ranulf and 30 for Nolan, giving him slightly more flexibility qua skills. His higher stats allow him to use one of those many skills you have lying around to better effect. For example, at the levels posted above, Ranulf has 33% chance of Adept per hit, while Nolan has 23%. Ranulf has a 66.5% chance of triggering Adept at least once in two attacks, while Nolan's is only 40%. Ranulf has an 11% chance of triggering Adept on both hits, and Nolan only 5.2% or so.

Let's look this from another perspective. Nolan has Nihil implemented on him. That means a free skill that allows him to damage the auras without retaliation. Since he's not a bad candidate for endgame, in fact he's a really good one, he can keep that skill and use an extra one that doesn't require an activation rate, such as dragonfoe or fortune, just to say some out of the top of my head. But still, free skill-that-is-practically-invaluable-for-endgame-that-you-can-take-out-if-you're-not-using-Chuck-but-if-you-are-then-leaves-you-space-for-an-extra-skill. Yeah, he's just that awsome.

You will probably go "but Ranulf is Laguz! transform omg!"

Actually, I wouldn't have brought this point up, since Olivi Grass is so damn abundant. It would have been pointless.

He starts off transformed.

Even if he untransforms, one Olivi Grass + one battle puts him back into transformation

This my friend, isn't FE9. In this game, you have to give laguz units the order to transform, and they start with 0 transform bar. So, massive sucks for Ranulf right there.

On the other hand, what I will adress will be the ridiculously short lifespan of their transformation bar. Only the herons de-transform that quick, and they have a good reason for it. It would really suck suddenly untransforming in the middle of a crucial battle.

then you can buy six before the final chapter,

If you can tell me where to get so much money without selling the laguz gems, I would be really thankful.

"who cares about transforming if you own this much?"

Units that own that much, like say, Nolan, and don't need to transform to do so.

On to some new points... which I forgot

Ok, remembered.

Ranulf is stuck with 1 range. That sucks. On the other hand, Chuck isn't. He if he wants 2 range, all he has to do is change to a hand axe (that funnily enough, is stronger than an iron axe... points for Chuck there at earlygame), short axe or tomahawk. 2 range>1 range, therefore Chuck wins... again.

Ranulf's weapon level won't go up so fast, since 70 assaults is which roughly he will get on part 4. That doesn't leave him much space to level it up to SS, when is really the point in which claw becomes an awsome weapon, on par with Tarvos. But still that leaves the +4 def.

So, just in case you didn't get it very clearly. Nolan is Chuck Norris. Therefore, he must be better than Ranulf. Want proof? Look at my post.

Nolan/Chuck > Ranulf

Mekkah's phase. Begin.

[Mekkah]

Yes, you guessed right. Nolan IS Chuck Norris.

I'm afraid Nolan is not Chuck Norris. I will be the first one to admit Intelligent Systems is dumb, but to make a game with Chuck Norris without giving him any video footage at all? It would be a decision with an intelligence equivalent of stopping the milking of the Pokemon franchise. Obviously, awesome people require awesome videos, and cutscenes.

Speaking of those, how many does Ranulf have?

- The Crossing (Sorry to drop in...unannounced...)

- Judgement (No, not rain...)

That's right, he has more cutscene screentime than Nolan. And the cutscenes involve other badass people. Skimrir, Tibarn and Zelgius carry 50% of this game's badassery on their own, the rest being filled with 3-13 Archer, Oliver, Devdan, Nadved, Danved and of course Ranulf himself.

Well now, in all seriousness, let's get on to the debate (although it is true that since Nolan is Chuck Norris, I can insta-win this debate and Chuck can insta-win the game)

I'm afraid that even if such an option existed, it will have been removed from the NoA/NoE versions of the game.

First of all, supports.

Chuck -> Earth Affinity (arguably the best affinity)

Ranulf -> Wind affinity (arguably the worst affinity)

Earth Affinity >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wind Affinity

'Nuff said, Nolan wins, moving on.

I agree Earth > Wind, though Wind isn't the worst (that would be Heaven).

In 1-2, the fact that Sothe joins is irrelevant, since he joins too far away to be an instant help. where Micaiah and his other useless friends are about to be raped. By the time Sothe arrives, 2 turns have passed, and Nolan has already calmed the storm, with a little help of his friends.

Lol "storm". There is like three enemies near their starting position. Anything beyond that can easily be reached by Sothe, who has hax movement (can pretty much meet up with your group at turn 4 if that).

Nolan is pretty good in 1-3 being the only unit, sides from Sothe and Aran, that can actually survive more than 2 hits.

He's alright, sure, but again in a fairly short chapter.

In 1-4, Tigers and Cats fear the name of Chuck Norris and his mighty axe. This means that Sothe, Aran and Chuck will be guarding the entrances. After ferals de-transform, everyone will be exterminating everything on sight, gaining tons of experience.

Too bad Chuck Norris is not in this game. And as you enlightened, pretty much anyone can deal with them once they untransform (loliyana).

1-5 throws in Volug, which is uber for the time, at least unti the end of the part, but I digress. Fire mages are abundant in this chapter, so he will have to play it easy. On the other hand, Nolan has no problem with fire magic, which doesn't stop him of performing just as good as he has been.

14/0 Nolan has 32 hp/5 res. 15 Wildheart Volug has 49 hp/7 res. A Fire tome has 15 mt on Volug and only 5 on Nolan, so Volug takes 8 more damage, but he also has a 17 hp lead, so it takes three Fire Mages to attack and hit at once to actually have Volug have less HP left than Nolan against these. Then factor in that Nolan has 36 avo while Volug has 52...

And against everything else, Volug is destroyering Nolan quite solidly.

Then comes 1-6 1 and 2 (which really, is the same thing). Zihark enters the fray, which is his best support option. That way, they'll get a super special smexy awsome bonus from both their earth affinities. So, Zihark isn't competition for him, on the other hand, he' a boon (because let's face it, his avoid isn't something to brag about... yet).

You're mixing up things. Zihark supporting Nolan, if he does it, is a nice thing for Nolan. But it doesn't take away that he is around fighting. If we were debating Seth vs Franz, would you say "Seth is no competition for Franz, because they are support partners"? (and before you remind me that this is not Nolan vs Zihark, remember that we have to talk about relative strength to the team due to them being in different armies)

Obviously not. Zihark being around does certainly put a damper on Nolan's appeal. Of course, him supporting Nolan is nice, though not guaranteed. Everyone on the team may want an Earth support, not just Nolan, and he doesn't have dibs on it just because he has an Earth affinity himself. No matter how you slice it, the other's Earth will add just as much Avo to Nolan's bonuses as it would add to someone else's. It may very well happen that Zihark supports Volug, or Jill.

Tauroneo is phail for just being there that chapter. Let's not count him.

Huh? No. His availability sucks, but we already took that into account by not going "Tauroneo pwns Nolan in 1-7, 1-8 and 1-E". The fact that he, a unit with hax offense and defense, is around for this chapter is another point against Nolan, like it or not.

In 1-7 come the 3 most useless units in the whole game. Why would you even give them kills? Just make Sothe rush them and make them join your group and don't make them kill anything. Because, seriously. They rejoin like, a chapter before endgame. In 1-8, again, Laguz Emancipation Army = the biggest phail FE has ever seen.... at least from FE7 onwards.

Again, like with Tauroneo, the fact that they are not available in other chapters does not mean they are not allowed to fight in the chapters they are around in. Especially since they are actually good in those, and in 1-7 and 1-8, they are forced. Muarim and Tormod especially are quite amazing boons to the Pawn Brigade.

Nailah will probably be busy saving the villager on the swamp together with Volug, leaving the whole right side to be solo'd by the Dawn Brigade.

Nailah and Volug can walk pretty much anywhere they want to, including to the main group of the Dawn Brigade (takes her like two turns max to meet up with Micaiah). She's not restricted to that prisoner, and Volug can save him too. Or you can just screw the prisoner, since he's only worth 100 BEXP. That's not even one level-up right now for Normal Mode, and Hard Mode pretty much doubles the amount you need.

and 1-E is straight forward. Nothing special there.

"Nothing special" sums up Nolan pretty well when he's compared to Burger King, Nailah, Muarim, Tormod, Zihark, Sothe and Volug, and then those are also better candidates than Nolan for Rafiel's quadruple-Vigor.

Volug - Useful until 1-7. Not useful again until part 3. In all reality, doesn't outperform Nolan, just better.

How is outperforming someone not the same as being better than someone? And he's still better than Nolan.

Nolan doesn't reach base Wildheart Volug's stats until:

HP - 20/20 (lol)

Str - 18/0

Skl - 19/0

Spd - 20/3-20/4

Luk - 19/0

Def - 20/1

Res - 20/0

Nolan isn't reaching those levels in 1-7, and he always loses mobility. If he even reaches those in 1-E, the chapter will be pretty much over, and then Volug drops Wildheart and uberizes him again. Obviously, above is not taking into account that Volug's level-ups are worth twice as much as other units (1.5 times as much with Wildheart), so in reality Nolan is getting pwned even more badly.

The rest has been addressed, so I won't go through it again to avoid tl;dr.

Now, do we have any overpowered units around that make Ranulf run with the tail between his legs?

The answer is no, because Ranulf is the only overpowered unit that is ridiculously overlevel'd.

Okay, you concede that Ranulf is overpowered. That's all I needed. Now, since you'll probably agree Nolan is not overpowered in the Dawn Brigade, I guess this means you concede Prt 3 Ranulf > Prt 1 Nolan, aka pretty much half this debate.

Which [the Laguz] are retreating pretty much because Ranulf sucks at being a baby sitter. Bad Ranulf. Moving on.

Not Ranulf's fault Skimrir was an idiot. Blame the dude's parents.

Volug now is on the process of becoming awsome, but atm, he sucks. Bad. Like reallly, really, really, really, really bad. Idk if I made my point.

You're not. Here is my counter: "Nolan atm sucks. Bad. Like really, really, really, really etc bad. Idk if I made my point."

See how convincing that is? Anyway, look above. Even if Nolan is 20/2 right now, he would still be barely on par with _base level Wild Heart Volug_. Volug has improved a lot since then. So basically, what you just said was that Nolan = Volug = really really really really bad.

He [black Knight]'s not making Nolan look bad, he makes everyone look bad. God, he even makes Ike look bad at this point.

He makes Nolan look like a whimp, but not Ranulf (at least not atm, you'd think Ranulf's had enough of that in PoR).

The Tarvos is an awsome weapon that makes him even more durable. Despite not being able to double just yet, the extra hit and attack really gives him an edge. Pair this with a really cool A support with Zihark, and you got an untouchable killing machine.

This says nothing about his relative performance to the team, just some stuff about his own, which is useless in a debate against Ranulf. He's being outperformed by the Black Knight, at the very least (even if the rest weren't true, but you gave no statistical proof), while Ranulf is being outperformed by no one.

No comments except on 3-10 on. Units by now should be reaching 3rd tier. By then, they are catching up with Ranulf. Specially since they now have their really awsome occult skills (unless you're a trueblade... bad luck being stuck with Astra). So, Ranulf performance remains the same, yet everyone else's improves. Not good for him.

I compared Ranulf to third tier Titania and Haar, generally considered the best third tier GMs (Ike can't reach third tier yet) and they lost. Mastery skills exist, sure, but they cannot be relied on, and don't override Ranulf's solid statistical wins. And soon enough, Ranulf can get one of the three Satori Signs to get Rend by himself, and before that he is probably one of the if not the best Adept candidate - people generally consider Mia the best, and Ranulf's base AS is equal to Mia's second tier cap.

Not good for him. In 3-12 and 3-13 you ARE stuck with competent NPC that most of the time will be in halt, otherwise, they'll just lure the ridiculously high amount of enemies in = death. So, be sure to leave that direct command in halt. Because, y'know, carelessness leads to lifelessness. (Except for 3-13, after turn 8, put the NPC in roam to see the sheer awsomeness of 3-13 archer). Better to trust the units that you command yourself.

Why would you put them on halt? It's extra damage you won't have to do and take yourself, and any kills they get are converted to BEXP. It's not like the Dawn Brigade can afford to refuse free help when fighting Ike or the Apostle's army.

3-F is just easy. 4 turns at the most, and the chapter is over. 80 kills isn't that much. If you're that commited, you bring all those useless units on your team and kill them.

It may be short turn-wise, but they're incredibely long turns with tons of enemies. Why would you commit unit slots to get your own people killed? What a waste of EXP.

Dammit, spoilers.

Ranulf kills Dumbledore.

For the record. He [Nolan] does get around the same playtime as everyone else. 9 chapters on part 1 + 3 on part 3. I think that's most than any other party can count.

Not all chapters are created equal. You conceded that 1-1 was insanely short, and 1-2 isn't very long either. Their amounts of enemies are much smaller than the ones that Ranulf features in. Obviously, many enemies give more EXP than few enemies, and being good against many enemies > being good against less enemies (not that Nolan is performing equally as well as Ranulf, but we're going over that already).

And your aproximation isn't being nice, it actually is pretty accurate. However, I'd like to make some changes in your comparisons. (Tarvos is +4 def, not +5... just saying)

Hm, 9 levels for Nolan in just three chapters. That does seem generous to me. And yeah, my bad on Tarvos, I'm used to GBAFE giving non-apparently-random boosts with weapons.

20/10 Nolan (Tarvos) A Zihark

30 Ranulf (A Strike)

Hey, that's nice, I see Nolan gets an Earth support and Ranulf gets...no support? Makes a lot of sense. How about I make a comparison now where Nolan is supportless and Ranulf gets A Ike? Would be equally as fair.

If Nolan gets an Earth support, so does Ranulf, making it 112.8 avo for Ranulf, and and 110 avo for Nolan. The gap is smaller than it was with no supports, but Nolan still isn't winning. Hell, even if Nolan gets a support while Ranulf, doesn't, you conceded it:

So yeah, indeed Nolan gets beaten here.

So either neither get supports, and Nolan gets raped. Or both get supports, and Nolan gets beaten. Or we're biased against Ranulf, and Nolan gets beaten by a lesser amount. Or we can be biased against Nolan, and he gets raped even more badly.

However, Nolan is a much better candidate for BEXP, since he already maxed skill, magic (useless, but still maxed) and res. This will only allow him to cap everything else.

BEXP is too valuable to assume used on Nolan like that. And "maxing stats" has no value of itself. It just means you can't grow any further until you promote. And hey, check this out:

Warrior Nolan (all stats capped):

53 hp, 30 str, 26 skl, 27 spd, 30 luk, 23 def, 13 res

30 Ranulf

57.8 hp, 30.4 str, 35.2 skl, 32.8 spd, 25.2 luk, 27.2 def, 20.8 res

As you can see, even if Nolan maxes all his stats in 2nd tier, he still loses all but 4.8 Luk to Ranulf (and I suppose he can tie Def when using Tarvos). So that obviously does nothing for him.

On the other hand, Ranulf's only way to level up will be BEXP, since he won't be getting decent amounts of exp until part 4, where all enemies are pumped with exp due to their shiney golden color. This will have an impact on his skills.

The only way for what you said to be true would be if Ranulf gained 0 EXP in combat, but he doesn't. He doesn't need to gain "decent" amounts to be hax, or better than Nolan - he's his superior already, even if Nolan maxes out every single one of his stats.

The existence of BEXP helps Ranulf though, since his total growth is 270%, meaning he gets +2.7 untransformed stat on average, while BEXP always gives him 3. A BEXP level-up most likely gives him HP and Luk, and then a third stat that is incredibely useful (most likely Skl, Spd or Str, in that order).

If throwing BEXP at Nolan for him "capping his stats" is an advantage for Nolan, then the above is even more an advantage for Ranulf.

Also, stat boosters are twice as efficient on Ranulf as they are on any beorc unit. An Energy Drop on him gives him +4 Atk, +8 damage on a double attack, +20 damage every time he activates Rend. Now that's making effective use of resources.

Yeah, who wouldn't want to be with such a hawt hawk (.... heheh, that rhymes). Okay, but seriously, he can go with the GM, and get a lot of exp there too. Ike will be getting most of the exp, and the other GM are already overleveled, so this is Nolan's opportunity to grow.

No, we won't be favoring anyone on the Greil Mercs, despite their levels. Just because someone is of a higher level doesn't mean they should get less kills. And actually, it's more like the opposite. If you're better at combat, you should be getting more kills. More durability means you can be exposed on enemy phase more often, meaning more time to use your offense on enemies, meaning more EXP. More offense means you kill more enemies rather than weakening them, meaning more EXP. So Nolan will in fact have a harder time getting kills in than the other Greil Mercs. Ike, Nailah and Titania give him a run for his money stat-wise, and all three are insanely likely to be taken into endgame. Then there's probably another group of GMs coming with Ike's army, such as their support partners - Mia and Shinon are good examples, and again both of these are likely to come to endgame, since that's where they shine.

Of course, Nolan himself has little choice on the matter, since if he goes with Micaiah he will get raped by the desert, so it looks like not only Ranulf is being statistically superior, but he's better off when it comes to army choice as well.

Let's look this from another perspective. Nolan has Nihil implemented on him. That means a free skill that allows him to damage the auras without retaliation. Since he's not a bad candidate for endgame, in fact he's a really good one, he can keep that skill and use an extra one that doesn't require an activation rate, such as dragonfoe or fortune, just to say some out of the top of my head. But still, free skill-that-is-practically-invaluable-for-endgame-that-you-can-take-out-if-you're-not-using-Chuck-but-if-you-are-then-leaves-you-space-for-an-extra-skill. Yeah, he's just that awsome.

Too bad that just because someone has an innate skill doesn't mean he has dibs on it. All it means is that it uses up 0 capacity as long as he never takes it off throughout the entire game. Unfortunately, others do want that Nihil despite it costing capacity on them. Most notably, Trueblades and Laguz Royals, who do much more to Auras than Nolan could ever hope for, and in return, would take much more damage if greedy Nolan keeps Nihil all for himself. They are also better suited for taking on Dheginsea, Levail and Sephiran, and the former two are taken on when you do not have Nasir's Nihil yet.

This my friend, isn't FE9. In this game, you have to give laguz units the order to transform, and they start with 0 transform bar. So, massive sucks for Ranulf right there.

It was only to demonstrate that Ranulf has no problems keeping his gauge full.

On the other hand, what I will adress will be the ridiculously short lifespan of their transformation bar. Only the herons de-transform that quick, and they have a good reason for it. It would really suck suddenly untransforming in the middle of a crucial battle.

With a full gauge of 30, -5 for a turn, Ranulf can take on a max of 7 enemies without being exposed on enemy phase. That's more enemies than most people _want_ to face at once (I'd like to see Nolan pin down seven tigers with his bare hands on one turn...only Largo can do that).

If you can tell me where to get so much money [to buy 6 sets of Laguz Stones] without selling the laguz gems, I would be really thankful.

You obviously only have to buy as much as you need - it may not be any, considering the availability of those Laguz Gems. Not that you lack gold anyway - the group's pretty much got 30,000G thrown at them after merging with the CRK and the Dawn Brigade, and then Volke shows up and throws 17,000G at Ike (taking off 3,000G for his recruitment cost).

Units that own that much, like say, Nolan, and don't need to transform to do so.

The question is, can you hype Ranulf's transforming issues so much that they override better statistical performance for the entire game?

Ranulf is stuck with 1 range. That sucks. On the other hand, Chuck isn't. He if he wants 2 range, all he has to do is change to a hand axe (that funnily enough, is stronger than an iron axe... points for Chuck there at earlygame), short axe or tomahawk. 2 range>1 range, therefore Chuck wins... again.

Conveniently mentioning the pro's but not the con's, I see. Hand Axe has 10 less hit than Iron Axe, 5 less than Steel, and Short Axe has 10 less than Hand Axe. They are also more costly, and they can break sooner than you want - having a 1-use Hand Axe equipped can be quite inconvenient when you are trying to double.

Ranulf's weapon level won't go up so fast, since 70 assaults is which roughly he will get on part 4. That doesn't leave him much space to level it up to SS, when is really the point in which claw becomes an awsome weapon, on par with Tarvos. But still that leaves the +4 def.

70 assaults should be almost finished when Part 4 begins. Ranulf pretty much always doubles, so that's only 35 enemies he needs to fight. If anything, comparing 30 Ranulf with just A Strike to 20/10 Nolan is generous, since he's closer to S than to A. And his weapon doesn't have to be "on par", Mt or Def wise. What matters is the overall result - and Ranulf has more offense and durability either way.

So, just in case you didn't get it very clearly. Nolan is Chuck Norris. Therefore, he must be better than Ranulf. Want proof? Look at my post.

Even if Nolan = Chuck Norris, Ranulf still > Nolan, so then Ranulf must be > Chuck Norris as well.

pwn for Prt 3 >>> okay for Prt 1

winning stats in Prt 4 >>> losing stats in Prt 4

guaranteed spot in Hawk Army >>> pretty much having to go with Greil Mercs due to sucking in the desert

Nolan just piles on the loss as the game goes on, and only five short chapters are left, in which he would have to totally outperform Ranulf to even tie him. Like, it has to be completely unarguable. And obviously, being slightly better than the other is hardly worth much here, since you don't have an awful lot of spots to begin with, and you have five Laguz Royals to work with, and other kickassery (Ragnell Ike and Double Bow Shinon, for example). So even if he beats Ranulf in endgame, he is once again "nothing special". And winning when you're still not likely to be taken into endgame with so many kickass units and still not doing the majority of the work if you are is worth less than Ranulf's victories way back.

Edited January 7, 2009 by Mekkah

[Legault]

Sorry for the delay, I had to find a computer that had a keyboard that actually works. Also, while I was freezing my butt over the hills of Wintergreens, I found inspiration to write a short and sweet post to prove that Nolan is indeed better than Ranulf. Well, enough digression, let's get on with this.

I'm afraid Nolan is not Chuck Norris. I will be the first one to admit Intelligent Systems is dumb, but to make a game with Chuck Norris without giving him any video footage at all? It would be a decision with an intelligence equivalent of stopping the milking of the Pokemon franchise. Obviously, awesome people require awesome videos, and cutscenes.

Speaking of those, how many does Ranulf have?

- The Crossing (Sorry to drop in...unannounced...)

- Judgement (No, not rain...)

That's right, he has more cutscene screentime than Nolan. And the cutscenes involve other badass people. Skimrir, Tibarn and Zelgius carry 50% of this game's badassery on their own, the rest being filled with 3-13 Archer, Oliver, Devdan, Nadved, Danved and of course Ranulf himself.

I personally have no compains on IS inteligence... because they're inteligent indeed, hence the name. That they made poor decisions in terms of their games is another issue altogether, but I digress. Chuck didn't get any cutscenes because putting such sheer amount of pure w1n in a cutscene would make your Wii, TV, your pet, the house down the corner and Kenny (wtf?) explode. As to the milking the Pokemon franchise... pokemon isn't a game anymore, it's a bunch of doodles thrown in a pokedex and changed names. This has to do a lot with the actual debate, you see, because it explains the reasons why... nvm, let's get on with this. (Sorry for the digression)

Even if Ranulf is as badass as you claim him to be, he's 50% responsible for the battle Ike vs Black Knight being as anticlimatic as it is. The other 50% is because Ike is overpowered and... actually, scratch that, Ranulf is mostly responsible for the anticlimatic-ness of that battle, because he spoils the identity of the Black Knight to Ike and everyone. No amount of cutscenes can possibly forgive Ranulf for this. Even if IS made a new sequel starring Ranulf and made him ridiculously badass, he would still be hated for spoiling what should have been a battle for the ages.

I'm afraid that even if such an option existed, it will have been removed from the NoA/NoE versions of the game.

Even if I knew what NoA/NoE meant, it wouldn't matter, Chuck/Nolan's awsomeness would overcome it and he would still be able to insta-win the game.

'Nuff said, Nolan wins, moving on.

I agree Earth > Wind, though Wind isn't the worst (that would be Heaven).

Before anything, Heaven is actually useful in endgame, when most units can't hit Ashera. Being useful at somepoint on the game>not being useful at all. Aka, Ranulf has the worst affinity.

Let me refute myself and elaborate some more on this point. Nolan has an Earth Affinity. With an A support, he alone gives a 22.5% avoid bonus. That's a lot, when you take in consideration the number of good affinities that the Dawn Brigade have. Let's check.

Micaiah: Dark

Sothe: Wind

Leonardo: Water

Edward: Light

Laura: Wind

Aran: Thunder

Meg: Heaven

Volug: Earth

Tauroneo: Thunder

Jill: Thunder

Zihark: Earth

Fiona: Earth

Laguz Emancipation Army: They're around for so shortly that supports are not worth it with them

Nailah: Wind

Rafiel: Heaven

Black Knight: Dark

The best support option for Nolan would be full avoid, to help the fact that his own avoid isn't so great. So he will want a support with Volug or Zihark, since Fiona isn't worth the effort. Since Volug moves around a lil too much, then Zihark would be his support option. This would help Zihark to get the uber avoid we all love and remember from PoR. However, Earth affinity doesn't necesarily have to help just Nolan, you can pair him up with another unit that has sucky durabilty to enhance it, such as Laura, Micaiah or Edward. Edward's affinty would make him uneffective, and his class wouldn't need it on the long term anyways. That leaves either Laura or Micaiah, if you're willing to give up Sothe's support with her, and his guard skill. Or, you could pair him up with anyone else you want, I just gave a couple of uses, you can think of your own. The point is that Nolan is a great boon to his team, and helps to the durabilty of the team overall in a way, because if paired up with Zihark, they can chokepoint more effectively. If paired up with Laura, she's more likely to survive (even if chances are still pretty low). If paired up with Micaiah, you're less likely to reset due to a game over. Or whatever you feel like.

On the other hand... Ranulf isn't helpful to the team. Let's check the GM before joins.

Only Rolf and Haar get Wind affinities, with excuses. Rolf gets overshadowed by Shinon and most of the times isn't used due to; and Haar... well, he's awsome. Then, Oscar goes with Ike for smexy 45 avoid bonus, Boyd goes with Mist because besides being a good support, it nets a sprit dust. The rest of the team can pair among themselves as you see fit, as all of them, except Rolf and Haar because of above reasons. When Ranulf joins, everyone would have a C support at the very least. Since his wind affinity isn't something worth giving up that support for, then he remains unsupported. Unless you plan supporting him with the CRK, he will be left unsupported. Even if you DO plan on supporting them, they're only there for two chapters, and then they might be separated for army choices. And this is asuming that no supports were made amongst themselves, which is unlikely. So Ranulf ends up unsupported, which is a negative because he's not helping the team. So, in short:

Not helping the team<Helping the team

Ranulf's unexistant contribution to the team in term of supports<Nolan's awsome contribution to the team in terms of supports.

Now that I made my correction, let's move on.

Lol "storm". There is like three enemies near their starting position. Anything beyond that can easily be reached by Sothe, who has hax movement (can pretty much meet up with your group at turn 4 if that).

Yeah, I know, bad metaphor. Well, yeah, Sothe can meet up with your group at turn 4 (if not moved), but there're some enemies that come in that period of time and could completely rape your team if it weren't for Nolan's high HP to take some hits and allowing the others to hit from behind. All of this until Sothe comes and saves their lousy asses.

He's alright, sure, but again in a fairly short chapter (1-3).

Yeah, it's short turn-wise, but it's considered the hardest chapter in HM, which is the one we're asuming. There're a fair amount of enemies here, and Nolan, Aran and Sothe being your only tanks, taking one away prety much makes this level much harder than it already is.

Too bad Chuck Norris is not in this game. And as you enlightened, pretty much anyone can deal with them once they untransform (loliyana).

Chuck, Nolan... same difference. Yeah, but only Nolan and Sothe (and Aran really, but he gets doubled by everything) can deal with them WHILE transformed. (heheh... LOLIlyana)

14/0 Nolan has 32 hp/5 res. 15 Wildheart Volug has 49 hp/7 res. A Fire tome has 15 mt on Volug and only 5 on Nolan, so Volug takes 8 more damage, but he also has a 17 hp lead, so it takes three Fire Mages to attack and hit at once to actually have Volug have less HP left than Nolan against these. Then factor in that Nolan has 36 avo while Volug has 52...

And against everything else, Volug is destroyering Nolan quite solidly.

Nolan's res growth is much greater than the lousy 10% growth Volug has, meaning that in the long run, he will still have the fire mage's issue. Also, he seems to be the only target of that meteor mage on 1-E. But anyways, that's beside the point. The point is that even if now Volug his here destroyering Nolan quite solidly, he's still one of your best units.

You're mixing up things. Zihark supporting Nolan, if he does it, is a nice thing for Nolan. But it doesn't take away that he is around fighting. If we were debating Seth vs Franz, would you say "Seth is no competition for Franz, because they are support partners"? (and before you remind me that this is not Nolan vs Zihark, remember that we have to talk about relative strength to the team due to them being in different armies)

Okay, let me rephrase it then. With a simple comparison. Let's be nice and asume a lvl 15 Nolan, even if he had a laguz level in which he had to chokepoint.

Nolan 15/0/0

Iron axe - atk 22.7, AS 13.6, Hit 121 ,, Avo 36.8, HP 32.6, Def 11.1, Res 5.4

Zihark -/3/0

Iron sword - atk 23, AS 23, Hit 145 ,, Avo 57, HP 30, Def 13, Res 11

This is a comparison with iron weapons, but I think it's enough to prove that Zihark has an edge over Nolan, but it's just a slight advantage duability-wise and with the big advantage of being able to double attack. 23 AS is overkill in anycase.... Well, the point is that Zihark is good, but Nolan is just slightly not-as-good. It doesn't damper Nolan's appeal.

Obviously not. Zihark being around does certainly put a damper on Nolan's appeal. Of course, him supporting Nolan is nice, though not guaranteed. Everyone on the team may want an Earth support, not just Nolan, and he doesn't have dibs on it just because he has an Earth affinity himself. No matter how you slice it, the other's Earth will add just as much Avo to Nolan's bonuses as it would add to someone else's. It may very well happen that Zihark supports Volug, or Jill.

See above. Similar perspective ought to explain it just as well.(I doubt he supports Volug or Jill anyways, due to mobility issues)

Huh? No. His availability sucks, but we already took that into account by not going "Tauroneo pwns Nolan in 1-7, 1-8 and 1-E". The fact that he, a unit with hax offense and defense, is around for this chapter is another point against Nolan, like it or not.

Again, like with Tauroneo, the fact that they are not available in other chapters does not mean they are not allowed to fight in the chapters they are around in. Especially since they are actually good in those, and in 1-7 and 1-8, they are forced. Muarim and Tormod especially are quite amazing boons to the Pawn Brigade.

The phail 3-man army are just good for the chapter they join, since they suffer the same problem as Volug. Therefore, they can't be better than Nolan for long. Then, how the hell is Tauroneo better than Nolan by not being there?? Again, Tauroneo is better than Nolan only for the chapter he's in by being able to tank better than Nolan (and anybody else fo that matter).

Nailah and Volug can walk pretty much anywhere they want to, including to the main group of the Dawn Brigade (takes her like two turns max to meet up with Micaiah). She's not restricted to that prisoner, and Volug can save him too. Or you can just screw the prisoner, since he's only worth 100 BEXP. That's not even one level-up right now for Normal Mode, and Hard Mode pretty much doubles the amount you need.

Due to amount of enemies that come from Nailah's area, she will end up covering the Dawn Brigade's behind. It might take her a couple of turns to clear up that area (since beside cyborg-ninja Raiden, she's the embodiment of awsomeness), and by then Micaiah and her team soloing most of the right part.

"Nothing special" sums up Nolan pretty well when he's compared to Burger King, Nailah, Muarim, Tormod, Zihark, Sothe and Volug, and then those are also better candidates than Nolan for Rafiel's quadruple-Vigor.

Point taken. However, let me expand your definition of "Nothing special" to Sothe, Volug, Muarim and Tormod. Volug can't double, Tormod and Muarim have already been adressed, and Sothe is on par with Nolan, since he gains exp slower and he should be around lvl 4. Nolan should have promoted at this point. No supports because it's a simple comparison.

Sothe -/4

Steel Dagger- Atk 27.8, AS 21.35, Hit 146.75 ,, Avo 59.65, HP 35.9, Def 14.6, Res 9.9

Nolan 20/1

Steel Axe - Atk 28.95, AS 17.6, Hit 128 ,, Avo 48.8, HP 37.6, Def 13.85, Res 9.4

I blame his low base speed for his lack of speed. Anyways. Again, this is the same situation as Zihark's one above. However, I don't really remember if Sothe has access to a Steel Dagger at this point of the game, so the breach between them might be much smaller. So that leaves with 2 overkill characters that can solo the entire map. But since that isn't the point of the game, let's use the rest of the characters that we'll actually continue using so we don't suffer that much during part that still are good.

Okay, you concede that Ranulf is overpowered. That's all I needed. Now, since you'll probably agree Nolan is not overpowered in the Dawn Brigade,

Yes, I concede that Ranulf is overpowered. However, so is the rest of the GM. Even if Ranulf is better than the rest of the GM, they all still one-round stuff. Since you can't get any better than 1 rounding stuff, Ranulf is average compared to other units. Yeah, he might have hax movement, but so do Oscar, Haar and Titania. Now, he has low attack in comparison with Haar, Titania and Ike, as you pointed out on your previous comparisons (not same levels). If they fight an enemy with high defense, namely a general, doublling would be left out of the question. Ike and Titania due to having higher attack will defintely inflict more damage on the general. With Haar it's a little more complicated, since he's not likely to double later on the game. However, there is a slight chance in which he might inflict more damage upon 1 strike than Ranulf with 2 (I really don't know if this case ever happens, but if you change around the weapons and characters, it might happen). Since Nolan and Ranulf are in different armies, we have to compare them by their relative performance to the team. Well, here's my answer. Ranulf is just a powerful average unit. Since he doesn't support anyone, he can be ignored (since he can't be taken out of the field) and there won't be much of a difference. However, if you drop Nolan off your team, during the first half, you will suffer endless frustration, while in the second half, you'll lose the growth of a valuable unit in part 3, when you don't have your overkill units.

I guess this means you concede Prt 3 Ranulf < Prt 1 Nolan, aka pretty much half this debate

Corrected your mistake. You must pay attention to what you write.

Not Ranulf's fault Skimrir was an idiot. Blame the dude's parents.

I can also blame Ranulf for not asking for help. After all, it's never only the parents fault.

How is outperforming someone not the same as being better than someone? And he's still better than Nolan.

In my book outperforming>being better than someone. And once Nolan starts doubling stuff (somewhere on the middle of part 3), he'll be just as good as Volug.

See how convincing that is? Anyway, look above. Even if Nolan is 20/2 right now, he would still be barely on par with _base level Wild Heart Volug_. Volug has improved a lot since then. So basically, what you just said was that Nolan = Volug = really really really really bad.

You're right. I got stop doing that. Anyways, Nolan being 20/2 is a quite accurate aproximation. Also, Volug has hardly improved, since he gets 1 exp per kill. And still, if he's better than Nolan, it loses any value at this point, since there're now no overkill units. Zihark is now on par with the rest of his team, if not better, Volug suffers from transformation issues due to lack of transformation items of the dawn brigade (I think they sell the olivi grass at the begining of DB's playtime on part 3. If they do, then it takes him 2 turns to transform), and Sothe is the same case as Zihark. That leaves Nolan being one of your best units. Until the BK appears for half a chapter (see next point).

He (the Black Knight) makes Nolan look like a whimp, but not Ranulf (at least not atm, you'd think Ranulf's had enough of that in PoR).

In fact, he makes him look that way. In fact, he actually does makes him look like a whimp after the river crossing. (Sorry, I meant next point)

This says nothing about his relative performance to the team, just some stuff about his own, which is useless in a debate against Ranulf. He's being outperformed by the Black Knight, at the very least (even if the rest weren't true, but you gave no statistical proof), while Ranulf is being outperformed by no one.

Okay. Let's have some statistical proof. Nolan vs Sothe vs Zihark, which acording to you are better than Nolan.

Nolan 20/2/0 A Zihark

Tarvos - Atk 36.4, AS 18.2, Hit 155 ,, Avo 95.6, HP 38.2, Def 18.1, Res 9.8

Zihark -/6/0 A Nolan

Steel Sword - Atk 27.05, AS 25.1, Hit 145.7 ,, Avo 107.3, HP 31.65, Def 13.75, Res 12.05

Sothe -/5 A Micaiah

Beast Killer - Atk 31.4, AS 21.8, Hit 137 ,, Avo 75.2, HP 36.2, Def 14.8, Res 10.2

Nolan is clearly having the advantage in atack, however his speed will most of the time not let him DA, but he won't be DA'd either. Then Zihark will be doing much lesser damage, but he will be doubling, doing more or less the same damage as Nolan. Sothe is a midpoint between them. In-between damage, not always doubles. Durability-wise, Nolan wins. Then Volug comes. Stat-wise they are the same, because Volug gains little exp, making him unable to level up. However, he transforms, and has mobility. For the sake of argument, let's just say that Volug is better than Nolan. That means that one your whole army, there's only one unit that is better than Nolan. Which means that he's doing really well.

I compared Ranulf to third tier Titania and Haar, generally considered the best third tier GMs (Ike can't reach third tier yet) and they lost. Mastery skills exist, sure, but they cannot be relied on, and don't override Ranulf's solid statistical wins. And soon enough, Ranulf can get one of the three Satori Signs to get Rend by himself, and before that he is probably one of the if not the best Adept candidate - people generally consider Mia the best, and Ranulf's base AS is equal to Mia's second tier cap.

You did. I already proved that it's meaningless. Him getting Adept is also meaningless, since he's one-rounding most of the time, making adept overkill.

Not all chapters are created equal. You conceded that 1-1 was insanely short, and 1-2 isn't very long either. Their amounts of enemies are much smaller than the ones that Ranulf features in. Obviously, many enemies give more EXP than few enemies, and being good against many enemies > being good against less enemies (not that Nolan is performing equally as well as Ranulf, but we're going over that already).

DB chapters are designed to amke chokepoints, which Nolan can cover along with Zihark to take advantage of the support bonus. Meaning more battles, meaning more exp. On the other hand, Ranulf need 100 battles to level up (most likely they end up in kills). That's a huge resource consumption that even Ike's team can't afford. And you're right. Nolan isn't performing equally as Ranulf. Comparatively, Nolan is doing better.

Hm, 9 levels for Nolan in just three chapters. That does seem generous to me. And yeah, my bad on Tarvos, I'm used to GBAFE giving non-apparently-random boosts with weapons.

I admit it's quite generous. However, 2 of the 3 chapters are laguz chapters. Something more accurate would be 5 levels. And don't sweat it on the Tarvos, this game does give random boosts (Calaba- Edward's sword).

Hey, that's nice, I see Nolan gets an Earth support and Ranulf gets...no support? Makes a lot of sense. How about I make a comparison now where Nolan is supportless and Ranulf gets A Ike? Would be equally as fair.

If Nolan gets an Earth support, so does Ranulf, making it 112.8 avo for Ranulf, and and 110 avo for Nolan. The gap is smaller than it was with no supports, but Nolan still isn't winning. Hell, even if Nolan gets a support while Ranulf, doesn't, you conceded it:

See above, already proved that Ranulf gets no supports.

Now let's compare them.

Nolan 20/7 A Zihark

Tarvos - Atk 38.65, AS 21.2, Hit 165 ,, Avo 104.6, HP 41.2, Def 19.95, Res 11.8

Ranulf 30 A Strike

Claw - Atk 38.4, AS 32.8, Hit 185.6 ,, Avo 90.8, HP 57.8, Def 27.2, Res 20.8

Ranulf get's overkill speed, and has better durability, but Nolan hax avoid isn't too far behind either. However, once Nolan starts doubling people, Ranulf's biggest advantage dissapears, making them on par. Ranulf isn't getting S strike too soon either, because of the amount of battles he has to make, and the amount of BEXP you have to give him to level up.

BEXP is too valuable to assume used on Nolan like that. And "maxing stats" has no value of itself. It just means you can't grow any further until you promote. And hey, check this out:

Warrior Nolan (all stats capped):

53 hp, 30 str, 26 skl, 27 spd, 30 luk, 23 def, 13 res

30 Ranulf

57.8 hp, 30.4 str, 35.2 skl, 32.8 spd, 25.2 luk, 27.2 def, 20.8 res

As you can see, even if Nolan maxes all his stats in 2nd tier, he still loses all but 4.8 Luk to Ranulf (and I suppose he can tie Def when using Tarvos). So that obviously does nothing for him.

Some great debater once said that comparing them without weapons is meaningless unless they mostly use the same kind of weapons or have similar constitution (in this case strength). In any case, if what you say holds true, it means that you shouldn't spend too much BEXP on Ranulf, meaning that all previous comparisons are wrong, and should place a Ranulf with a lower level, such as 28. Considering that in HM BEXP is rare and valuable, that would be more accurate. So let's try again.

Nolan 20/7 A Zihark

Tarvos - Atk 38.65, AS 21.2, Hit 165 ,, Avo 104.6, HP 41.2, Def 19.95, Res 11.8

Ranulf 28 A Strike

Claw - Atk 37.2, AS 31.4, Hit 181.3 ,, Avo 86.19, HP 56.4, Def 26.6, Res 20.4

This doesn't change much though, since he still has overkill speed. However, now Nolan has a better lead on attack. However, Ranulf is still better.

The only way for what you said to be true would be if Ranulf gained 0 EXP in combat, but he doesn't. He doesn't need to gain "decent" amounts to be hax, or better than Nolan - he's his superior already, even if Nolan maxes out every single one of his stats.

The existence of BEXP helps Ranulf though, since his total growth is 270%, meaning he gets +2.7 untransformed stat on average, while BEXP always gives him 3. A BEXP level-up most likely gives him HP and Luk, and then a third stat that is incredibely useful (most likely Skl, Spd or Str, in that order).

The exp thing I already countered, the better than Nolan part has already been issued. The existance of BEXP has already been issued too.

Also, stat boosters are twice as efficient on Ranulf as they are on any beorc unit. An Energy Drop on him gives him +4 Atk, +8 damage on a double attack, +20 damage every time he activates Rend. Now that's making effective use of resources.

Actually, quite the contrary. Ranulf is already overkill. Giving him a stat booster is uneeded. It is making a poor use of resources.

Something about Nolan in army choices.

We agree that Nolan is a good combat unit. Yeah? Right. We agree that he's slightly underlevel'd. Right? Yeah. The smart thing to do would be to send it to the hawk army, so it gets the infinite exp pool from there and catches up. Of course, that would mean that Ranulf is here too, competing for kills. Nolan can one-round anything that flies and I think he 2-rounds tigers. Even if he doesn't, we can have Elincia use Mercy with them to get easy kills. He is actually a good candidate for going to the hawk army.

Too bad that just because someone has an innate skill doesn't mean he has dibs on it. All it means is that it uses up 0 capacity as long as he never takes it off throughout the entire game. Unfortunately, others do want that Nihil despite it costing capacity on them. Most notably, Trueblades and Laguz Royals, who do much more to Auras than Nolan could ever hope for, and in return, would take much more damage if greedy Nolan keeps Nihil all for himself. They are also better suited for taking on Dheginsea, Levail and Sephiran, and the former two are taken on when you do not have Nasir's Nihil yet.

Yeah, it sucks that no enemy on this game has skills... However, it means that if taken to endgame (which isn't a bad idea altogether) he can have extra skills on, because Nihil occupies no space.

It was only to demonstrate that Ranulf has no problems keeping his gauge full.

He still doesn't start off transformed. And it is still kinda pointless.

With a full gauge of 30, -5 for a turn, Ranulf can take on a max of 7 enemies without being exposed on enemy phase. That's more enemies than most people _want_ to face at once (I'd like to see Nolan pin down seven tigers with his bare hands on one turn...only Largo can do that).

We're human. Mistakes happen. Not that often of course, but not having a problem<having a problem.

You obviously only have to buy as much as you need - it may not be any, considering the availability of those Laguz Gems. Not that you lack gold anyway - the group's pretty much got 30,000G thrown at them after merging with the CRK and the Dawn Brigade, and then Volke shows up and throws 17,000G at Ike (taking off 3,000G for his recruitment cost).

You're not guaranteed to get the desert laguz gem, and the other one is for the heron. The money is for weapons and whatnot. It doesn't leave you with much money.

The question is, can you hype Ranulf's transforming issues so much that they override better statistical performance for the entire game?

Nope, but I can hype Ranulf's comparative performance issue to prove that Nolan does better comparatively for the entire game save 2 chapters and endgame. In fact, I don't need to hype it.

Conveniently mentioning the pro's but not the con's, I see. Hand Axe has 10 less hit than Iron Axe, 5 less than Steel, and Short Axe has 10 less than Hand Axe. They are also more costly, and they can break sooner than you want - having a 1-use Hand Axe equipped can be quite inconvenient when you are trying to double.

Nolan has quite a good amount of skill in the first place, and in second place, 70 accuracy is average for a weapon. That it's worse than the other 2 is irrelevant. And if you're really worried about the accuracy, you can always forge one, they're not that expensive. The fact that they break sooner is something that you have to know to get around.

70 assaults should be almost finished when Part 4 begins. Ranulf pretty much always doubles, so that's only 35 enemies he needs to fight. If anything, comparing 30 Ranulf with just A Strike to 20/10 Nolan is generous, since he's closer to S than to A. And his weapon doesn't have to be "on par", Mt or Def wise. What matters is the overall result - and Ranulf has more offense and durability either way.

I agree with you there. However you can't asume that every battle Ranulf participates in is a 3 round battle, so you can't say that only 35 enemies are needed. But it is true that the S rank will be almost finished when the army choice comes. Maybe 75%, because Ranulf gets only 5 chapters.

On to the new points I want to introduce.

Nolan is a fair endgame candidate. After the laguz fest, he should look something like this. Since we may want to save Tarvos, we'll avoid using it for a while (more on that in a minute).

Nolan 20/20/3 A Zihark

Steel Poleax - Atk 44.4, AS 30.2, Hit 145 ,, Avo 131.6, HP 54.2, Def 23.2, 17.8

Silver Poleax - Atk 47.4, everything else same.

Now let's look at Ranulf. After the laguz fest, he should look something like this.

Ranulf 35 (S Strike)

Claw - Atk 46.4, AS 36.3, Hit 196.35 ,, Avo 100.55, HP 61.3, Def 28.7, Res 21.8

That would be really close to SS. We might as well consider it being SS and add that extra 5 atk. But anyways. This is them when the 70 something units you get on the whole game are united in front of the tower of guidance. So you take all the forced and then you have 10 other units. 4 royals will make 6. That means that you have little choice of units. Zihark is a good swordmaster, so he is likely to go in. Nolan supports Zihark, and he's too a good combat unit, so there's a reason why he would go in. Then, the Urvan is a really competitive weapon. There's Haar and Boyd who want it (maybe someone else, but I don't quite remember at this point). However, Nolan has 2 choices here. He can go for Urvan (which would make him uber), or he can go for his loyal Tarvos (which is only the 2nd strongest axe and has better hit than the silver poleax). There's also the small defense bonus that the Tarvos gives, but the Res bonus actually more useful here. But hey, it's still there. This again helps the team as a whole, since he doesn't take the strongest weapon for other axe users.

On the other hand, we have Ranulf. Ranulf is too a good combat unit. However, he will not get that laguz gem, and the laguz stones are quite useless in this place where battles are so short. In any case, he still has the issue about fire magic, and here there're a lot of enemies that use fire magic. Since there are units that might be equal to him and don't have that durability problem (namely... idk, maybe Nolan) you might be better off choosing those.

Nolan just piles on the loss as the game goes on, and only five short chapters are left, in which he would have to totally outperform Ranulf to even tie him. Like, it has to be completely unarguable. And obviously, being slightly better than the other is hardly worth much here, since you don't have an awful lot of spots to begin with, and you have five Laguz Royals to work with, and other kickassery (Ragnell Ike and Double Bow Shinon, for example). So even if he beats Ranulf in endgame, he is once again "nothing special". And winning when you're still not likely to be taken into endgame with so many kickass units and still not doing the majority of the work if you are is worth less than Ranulf's victories way back.

I've just proved aaaaaall of that wrong. He not only beats Ranulf on endgame, he also beats him during the rest of the game for not being in the same army. Their comparative performances are really different.

Even if Nolan = Chuck Norris, Ranulf still > Nolan, so then Ranulf must be > Chuck Norris as well.

That's blasphemy. As well as impossible and wrong in so many different levels that you and I can't possibly understand. Because, after all, it's Chuck Norris..../Nolan.

pwn for Prt 3 >>> okay for Prt 1

winning stats in Prt 4 >>> losing stats in Prt 4

guaranteed spot in Hawk Army >>> pretty much having to go with Greil Mercs due to sucking in the desert

In order: Wrong, right, wrong.

...

You expected a comment saying that Nolan is better than Ranulf? Check the post, it's somewhere there.Oh wait... the whole post is that comment. Whoops.

Your turn Mekkah.

Edited January 23, 2009 by Legault

[Mekkah]

If I don't address something, it is because this debate is tl;dr enough and I'm not one to repeat something a lot of times. So things like you saying "nolan > ranulf fixed lol" will be left off.

Apparently we have a max amount of quote boxes, so I replaced some quote blocks with italics in the first half of this huge ass closer.

Chuck didn't get any cutscenes because putting such sheer amount of pure w1n in a cutscene would make your Wii, TV, your pet, the house down the corner and Kenny (wtf?) explode.

That's not what happened in the Ranulf cutscenes, so we'll be just fine with Chuck Norris.

As to the milking the Pokemon franchise... pokemon isn't a game anymore, it's a bunch of doodles thrown in a pokedex and changed names.

It's always been like that, just as it has always been a cash machine.

Even if Ranulf is as badass as you claim him to be, he's 50% responsible for the battle Ike vs Black Knight being as anticlimatic as it is. The other 50% is because Ike is overpowered and... actually, scratch that, Ranulf is mostly responsible for the anticlimatic-ness of that battle, because he spoils the identity of the Black Knight to Ike and everyone. No amount of cutscenes can possibly forgive Ranulf for this. Even if IS made a new sequel starring Ranulf and made him ridiculously badass, he would still be hated for spoiling what should have been a battle for the ages.

You wouldn't warn one of your best friends about his archrival being alive when everyone assumes he has been turned to stone? Some friend you'd be.

Even if I knew what NoA/NoE meant, it wouldn't matter, Chuck/Nolan's awsomeness would overcome it and he would still be able to insta-win the game.

'

Nintendo of Europe/America. Of course, Ranulf's insta-win is so great that you do not even need to press a button to see his win in action.

Before anything, Heaven is actually useful in endgame, when most units can't hit Ashera. Being useful at somepoint on the game>not being useful at all. Aka, Ranulf has the worst affinity.

Eh, if hit is actually a useful bonus, then Wind >>>. It doesn't give as much as Heaven, but it also gives Avo, which is generally considered the most useful support bonus of them all. So Wind is useful at some point (Ashera), and useful throughout the game (Avo). He would be a pretty good support partner for Ike if he wants to increase his Hit, in fact, since Ike's possible Heaven partners not named Lethe don't cross paths with him until Part 4, sometimes even only in Endgame (Tibarn, Elincia), or sometimes they don't really get anything out of it themselves (Rafiel).

The best support option for Nolan would be full avoid, to help the fact that his own avoid isn't so great. So he will want a support with Volug or Zihark, since Fiona isn't worth the effort. Since Volug moves around a lil too much, then Zihark would be his support option. This would help Zihark to get the uber avoid we all love and remember from PoR.

Volug isn't going to run ahead too far, and definitely would not mind a Zihark support. No matter how you look at it, one of the three will not get that Earth/Earth. If Nolan is assumed to get one of them, in your case Zihark, cool, but he's not really benefitting the others with it. They could have gotten the very same bonuses from each other, and all Nolan is doing is making one of them miss out. So it's not really a net benefit.

However, Earth affinity doesn't necesarily have to help just Nolan, you can pair him up with another unit that has sucky durabilty to enhance it, such as Laura, Micaiah or Edward.

Laura is still getting one-rounded by everything. She cannot fight, so she gets nothing out of the hit bonus, and all the avo does is give you a chance based chance to survive when you fucked up your positioning.

Roughly the same for Micaiah, except she can fight, but nonetheless doesn't get anything out of the hit bonus. And she would have to give up her Sothe support for it, which hurts both her and Sothe.

Yeah, you conceded Edward. Not that he will be perm-used anyway.

Or, you could pair him up with anyone else you want, I just gave a couple of uses, you can think of your own.

Like who? Meg, Leonardo and Fiona fail, the Laguz Emancipation Army doesn't have time to support as you said, same for Nailah/Burger King/Tauroneo. That leaves Rafiel, who gets as much out of it as Laura. And Jill, who will often fly out of support range. And Aran, whose avo will still be shit.

The point is that Nolan is a great boon to his team, and helps to the durabilty of the team overall in a way, because if paired up with Zihark, they can chokepoint more effectively.

As I said, Zihark doesn't care, since without Nolan he would just get Volug and do the same. The others you named in this part have been addressed.

Now, for Ranulf support.

Rolf gets overshadowed by Shinon and most of the times isn't used due to

Sure.

and Haar... well, he's awsome.

Not only that, but he would love avo since the only things that are a threat to him are Thunder Mages, which Ranulf gives him a higher chance of avoiding like 60% of his health taken away. And he likes extra hit, since it allows him to use stronger or ranged axes more often while reducing his chance to miss (miss = 0 damage at unexpected moment = gay).

Then, Oscar goes with Ike for smexy 45 avoid bonus

Very smexy if you need it for something, but both Oscar and Ike live through everything thrown at them no matter what kind of support they get, so 45 avo is just overkill. Ike would get more out of, say, Mia, for more Atk vs Generals he barely fails to one-round, or Ranulf for that hit in Endgame you talked about. Plus, Oscar cannot follow Ike up ledges or through swamps, while Ranulf/Mia can. Oscar would like more Hit for the same reason Haar would: more reliable Hit means you can use stronger/ranged stuff, maybe even throw stuff up ledges.

Boyd goes with Mist because besides being a good support, it nets a sprit dust

Sure, if they're both being used.

The rest of the team can pair among themselves as you see fit

What kind of reasoning is this? They can, but they may not want to. Or there may be an odd number of them that you're perm-using, and in that case they will obviously want a Ranulf support. The only way Ranulf is not getting a support at all is if you purposely go out of your way to make it so, but you can do the same for Nolan.

Even if you DO plan on supporting them, they're only there for two chapters, and then they might be separated for army choices.

I'm sure no one will mind going Tibarn's route with Ranulf, lol. Do I want massive amounts of EXP while keeping my support partner, or do I want to go with Ike or Micaiah? Hmmm...

And this is asuming that no supports were made amongst themselves, which is unlikely.

No, it is assuming that _everyone_ makes supports among themselves.

The only claim Nolan has is that his affinity helps his partners more, but this is countered by the fact that Ranulf's possible partners are simply better units that don't end up underleveled and thus have a better shot at being fielded in Part 4, thus making use of the bonus more.

Yeah, I know, bad metaphor. Well, yeah, Sothe can meet up with your group at turn 4 (if not moved), but there're some enemies that come in that period of time and could completely rape your team if it weren't for Nolan's high HP to take some hits and allowing the others to hit from behind. All of this until Sothe comes and saves their lousy asses.

Again, it is a very very very small amount of enemies, not even half the map.

Yeah, it's short turn-wise, but it's considered the hardest chapter in HM, which is the one we're asuming. There're a fair amount of enemies here, and Nolan, Aran and Sothe being your only tanks, taking one away prety much makes this level much harder than it already is.

Sothe can pretty much solo that map if he wants to. It being hard makes no difference - all that matters is relative strength. It could be the hardest map ever made, and Nolan would still be losing to Sothe.

Yeah, but only Nolan and Sothe (and Aran really, but he gets doubled by everything) can deal with them WHILE transformed. (heheh... LOLIlyana)

And they come at chokepoints with like one at once, not all of them transformed, with people like Eddie and Aran still being able to survive one assault and then Laura being able to heal them. And Sothe lol-one-rounds them.

Nolan's res growth is much greater than the lousy 10% growth Volug has, meaning that in the long run, he will still have the fire mage's issue.

We weren't talking about "in the long run", we were talking about this chapter. And Volug gets 1.5 res or 2 res every time he grows, while Nolan only gets one. And you managed to ignore "so Volug takes 8 more damage, but he also has a 17 hp lead, so it takes three Fire Mages to attack and hit at once to actually have Volug have less HP left than Nolan against these. Then factor in that Nolan has 36 avo while Volug has 52...".

Also, he seems to be the only target of that meteor mage on 1-E.

Yaye, one enemy that Volug still survives.

But anyways, that's beside the point. The point is that even if now Volug his here destroyering Nolan quite solidly, he's still one of your best units.

But he is not _the best_, whereas Ranulf is in his chapters.

[Nolan vs Zihark]This is a comparison with iron weapons, but I think it's enough to prove that Zihark has an edge over Nolan, but it's just a slight advantage duability-wise and with the big advantage of being able to double attack. 23 AS is overkill in anycase.... Well, the point is that Zihark is good, but Nolan is just slightly not-as-good. It doesn't damper Nolan's appeal.

Zihark's doubling everything >>>> Nolan only doubling slow stuff, obviously, and you conveniently left out crit and Adept ratios. Zihark is winning all but 2.6 hp, kicking Nolan's ass. Another Dawn Brigade member conceded.

The phail 3-man army are just good for the chapter they join, since they suffer the same problem as Volug. Therefore, they can't be better than Nolan for long.

And that problem is? Raping the shit out of Nolan? They (Vika and Muarim) start transformed in all but 1-E, where they can just use Olivi Grass, and Volug is always transformed, so it can't be that. Or maybe you just don't want to face how much better they are when they are around?

17/0 Nolan

Iron Axe - 23.6 atk, 15 AS -- 42 avo, 34 hp, 12 def, 6 res

19 Muarim (base level)

Fang (A) - 46 atk, 22 AS -- 56 avo, 58 hp, 30 def, 18 res

Do I even want to look into this?

13 Vika (base level)

Beak (A) - 25 atk, 30 AS -- 74 avo, 38 hp, 14 def, 14 res

Not as wow in most departments as Muarim, but she flies around and has insane AS and avo, and she still wins in every department, including atk. And I'm not even looking into hit here, which is where Laguz trive and axes phail.

5 Tormod (base level)

Fire - 23 atk, 20 AS -- 54 avo, 34 hp, 12 def, 14 res

This is the dude Nolan comes closest with, but it's also the only one out of the three that doesn't have to transform and has 1~2 range, and he's still owning or tying Nolan in every stat (except for a .6 atk win, but hitting on res more than overrides that).

Regardless of availability, they totally rape Nolan when they ARE around.

Then, how the hell is Tauroneo better than Nolan by not being there?? Again, Tauroneo is better than Nolan only for the chapter he's in by being able to tank better than Nolan (and anybody else fo that matter).

You don't get my point.

You said: "Tauroneo is only around for 1-6, so let's ignore him."

I said: "Just because he isn't available a lot doesn't mean he doesn't own when he is available."

Having Tauroneo hurting and tanking in 1-6 (1) and 1-6 (2) is again having an impact of how relatively useful Nolan is.

Just for good measure:

??/14 Tauroneo (base level)

No weapon (lol): 24 atk, 20 AS -- 58 avo, 38 hp, 21 def, 15 res

He is annihilating Nolan even if we don't count a weapon's might in his favor and pretend Nolan is 17/0 in 1-6.

Due to amount of enemies that come from Nailah's area, she will end up covering the Dawn Brigade's behind. It might take her a couple of turns to clear up that area (since beside cyborg-ninja Raiden, she's the embodiment of awsomeness), and by then Micaiah and her team soloing most of the right part.

Again, it's nothing Volug cannot handle, and Rafiel is there to vigor them both into doubling their amount of kills per turn. What "she ends up doing" is at the player's discretion, and the fact is, she has the option of either cleaning up there, or going to where Micaiah and friends are and being better than Nolan there. If staying there > going to pwn Nolan, and going to pwn Nolan makes her >>> Nolan, then staying there >>>> anything Nolan does there, so it's not helping your case.

and Sothe is on par with Nolan, since he gains exp slower and he should be around lvl 4. Nolan should have promoted at this point. No supports because it's a simple comparison.

Sothe -/4

Steel Dagger- Atk 27.8, AS 21.35, Hit 146.75 ,, Avo 59.65, HP 35.9, Def 14.6, Res 9.9

Nolan 20/1

Steel Axe - Atk 28.95, AS 17.6, Hit 128 ,, Avo 48.8, HP 37.6, Def 13.85, Res 9.4

Haha, this is laughable. How about I compare Nolan at base level while Sothe at -/20 since it is a "simple comparison"? Nice going at negating Sothe's auto-A with Micaiah whereas Nolan now only has a C at best.

Secondly, you're assuming Nolan is already promoted at this point, which is quite a stretch in itself, since it lowers the efficiency to give him kills when you have so many overpowered dudes that kill faster, making it harder to give them to him. You have now pretty much conceded Volug, Sothe and Zihark, and I showed why the Laguz Alliance and Tauroneo rape him so much as well. So maybe he could be promoted at this point, but it's no guarantee.

However, I don't really remember if Sothe has access to a Steel Dagger at this point of the game, so the breach between them might be much smaller.

They are, and what's even worse for you, they've been buyable at the base from 1-8 on.

And now the best part: Nolan still isn't beating Sothe in your comparison despite multiple layers of obvious bias. Sothe is doubling anything he comes across, while Nolan is not, which easily beats a 1-2 damage lead when both or neither double. Defensively, 1.7 hp < 10 avo, .75 def and .5 res.

So that leaves with 2 overkill characters that can solo the entire map. But since that isn't the point of the game, let's use the rest of the characters that we'll actually continue using so we don't suffer that much during part that still are good.

"The point of the game"? The point of the game, in a debate, is to beat it as efficiently as possible. The better the units I use, the more efficiency. If I have to choose between Nolan and one of the many overpowered dudes attacking, the more efficient pick is the latter. Less damage taken, if there's damage at all, and the enemy dies sooner (either in that battle alone or requires the assistance of less atk, meaning someone else gets to use Iron rather than Steel, or I can use a weaker unit and use a stronger unit for something else).

Moving on to Ranulf and Part 3...

Yes, I concede that Ranulf is overpowered. However, so is the rest of the GM. Even if Ranulf is better than the rest of the GM, they all still one-round stuff. Since you can't get any better than 1 rounding stuff, Ranulf is average compared to other units.

The only way this is true is if everyone in the Greil Mercs one-rounds anything they come across and never die. Unfortunately, this is not true, otherwise all GMs would be equal. Even if Ike, Titania and Haar one-rounded everything, that still leaves roughly 20 other units Ranulf is superior against in some way or another (some offense, some defense, mostly both, plus movement).

Yeah, he might have hax movement, but so do Oscar, Haar and Titania.

So I guess that if you have 3 other units with hax move, having a fourth isn't a boon? Quite obviously not. It's still a big point in Ranulf's favor. Instead of clogging behind with Soren, Gatrie and Rhys, he moves to the front where all the action is, getting Strike EXP and generally being an efficient dude.

Now, he has low attack in comparison with Haar, Titania and Ike, as you pointed out on your previous comparisons (not same levels). If they fight an enemy with high defense, namely a general, doublling would be left out of the question. Ike and Titania due to having higher attack will defintely inflict more damage on the general.

It's what you'd call low. For example, he has only 4 less than Titania, but I was comparing him at base level to a third tier Titania, and Titania certainly isn't third tier when Ranulf joins. And Generals aren't the only enemy types...there's also enemies that :gasp: Titania can't double! And against those, Ranulf wins offense by huge amounts.

With Haar it's a little more complicated, since he's not likely to double later on the game. However, there is a slight chance in which he might inflict more damage upon 1 strike than Ranulf with 2 (I really don't know if this case ever happens, but if you change around the weapons and characters, it might happen).

If you're not going to dig into the numbers and show evidence I can just claim the opposite to you and be equally as convincing. "Switching weapons does little to nothing if he's not doubling while he is." Plus, if you're favoring Haar with a Silver Poleaxe or something, I can give Ranulf an Energy Drop and add 8 damage on his double attacks.

Since Nolan and Ranulf are in different armies, we have to compare them by their relative performance to the team.

That's what I've been doing all along.

Well, here's my answer. Ranulf is just a powerful average unit.

He > your best Greil Merc units when they are given an unrealistic level lead. I wouldn't call that average.

Since he doesn't support anyone, he can be ignored (since he can't be taken out of the field) and there won't be much of a difference.

Eh, Ranulf can in fact supports everyone in his army, like everyone else, and there's absolutely no reason he is getting no supports at all. And if you ignore him, you just end up with a wasted unit slot, while if you use him, you end up with a dude as strong as your third tiers for absolutely nothing.

However, if you drop Nolan off your team, during the first half, you will suffer endless frustration, while in the second half, you'll lose the growth of a valuable unit in part 3, when you don't have your overkill units.

Only during the short chapters we argued about. "Suffering frustration without him" is not exactly a good argument to call someone a good unit, anyway. "A growth of a valuable unit"? His averages (which include both his bases and growths) don't make him look any special compared to anyone but fail dudes. And yes, you do have overpowered dudes in Prt 3. Volug became hax, Zihark is hax, Tauroneo is there, you have capable NPCs (zomg 3-13 archer), Black Knight can do 3-6 all on his own, etc etc.

In my book outperforming>being better than someone. And once Nolan starts doubling stuff (somewhere on the middle of part 3), he'll be just as good as Volug.

In my book (a dictionary), being better = outperforming. Have some dictionary.com.

–verb (used with object)

to surpass in excellence of performance; do better than: a new engine that outperforms the competition; a stock that outperformed all others.

For Nolan doubling stuff and being just as good as Volug, nothx. Volug keeps having sizable leads over Nolan pretty much forever:

base level Volug

S Strike - 36 atk, 26 AS -- 65 avo, 49 hp, 18 def, 10 res

20/5 Nolan

Tarvos - 40 atk, 20 AS -- 56 avo, 40 hp, 19 def, 11 res

Again, being nice to Nolan and not giving Volug any levels, just a strike level. Nolan only scrapes 4 atk/1 def/1 res, while Volug has 6 as/9 avo/9 hp.

Volug suffers from transformation issues due to lack of transformation items of the dawn brigade (I think they sell the olivi grass at the begining of DB's playtime on part 3. If they do, then it takes him 2 turns to transform)

They do sell Olivi Grass, and on turn 1 you're usually not attacking anyway, so all it does is costing him one extra player phase turn, in exchange for much more bad bad rape. The rest of your paragraph is "the other prepromotes are now on par and there's no more overkill" without factual evidence.

In fact, he makes him look that way. In fact, he actually does makes him look like a whimp after the river crossing. (Sorry, I meant next point)

Your next point doesn't say anything about the Burger King, so I guess you just concede it.

Okay. Let's have some statistical proof. Nolan vs Sothe vs Zihark, which acording to you are better than Nolan.

[stats and text]

A few things are wrong here:

- Nolan can't be having Tarvos equipped all the time. It only has 40 uses, and there's only one. So sometimes, he has pretty much the same def as the other two.

- Having an Atk lead != doing the same if the other doubles more. Doubling when the other does not mean you do (atk*2)-(enemy def) more damage. So Nolan's atk lead gets crumbled.

Volug has been addressed thoroughly (lol "volug gainz no exp so he is statistically the same"), so I'll just stick with this.

That means that one your whole army, there's only one unit that is better than Nolan. Which means that he's doing really well.

No dude. Black Knight in 3-6, Tauroneo in 3-12 and 3-13, and you probably have Jill and Aran flying/bossing around too.

You did. I already proved that it's meaningless. Him getting Adept is also meaningless, since he's one-rounding most of the time, making adept overkill.

You didn't prove anything, all you did was say that it doesn't matter if they all one-round, but they don't. Ranulf and others certainly don't one-round tougher enemies, such as bosses, against which Adept does make a difference.

On the other hand, Ranulf need 100 battles to level up (most likely they end up in kills).

and kills give double WEXP

That's a huge resource consumption that even Ike's team can't afford.

They can miss EXP moreso than the Dawn Brigade, lol. His team is full of dudes that hold their own. It's the Dawn Brigade that needs everything they can get. Plus, Ranulf can just hit stuff twice so a weaker dude can finish it off. Strike levels for him, EXP for others.

I admit it's quite generous. However, 2 of the 3 chapters are laguz chapters.

Chapters in which you don't want to attack on player phase, where you want to kill laguz when they're untransformed, and when you have NPCs, Tauroneo or Black Knight sopping up EXP.

Nolan 20/7 A Zihark

Tarvos - Atk 38.65, AS 21.2, Hit 165 ,, Avo 104.6, HP 41.2, Def 19.95, Res 11.8

Ranulf 30 A Strike

Claw - Atk 38.4, AS 32.8, Hit 185.6 ,, Avo 90.8, HP 57.8, Def 27.2, Res 20.8

Lol, Ranulf still wins everything except .25 atk (lol) and 14 avo (gone if you're not being irrational about supports). No matter how you slice it, Nolan still does not win this comparison.

And no, his Spd is not overkill. 11 extra AS means doubling a lot of shit Nolan isn't. Basically, anything between 18 and 28-29 AS means a huge ass damage lead for Ranulf. That covers pretty much every enemy.

Actually, quite the contrary. Ranulf is already overkill. Giving him a stat booster is uneeded. It is making a poor use of resources.

You're basically saying it's impossible for Ranulf to be better than he is, in which case you kind of concede his God tier status. If he's the best unit possible, and Nolan is not, then he auto-wins.

Anyway, "poor use of resources" is not an argument. It's the same kind of shit that people throw at Titania and Seth. Except this time, Ranulf gets _more_ out of a resource than others. He gains twice as much out of a stat booster than anyone else.

We agree that Nolan is a good combat unit. Yeah? Right. We agree that he's slightly underlevel'd. Right? Yeah. The smart thing to do would be to send it to the hawk army, so it gets the infinite exp pool from there and catches up. Of course, that would mean that Ranulf is here too, competing for kills. Nolan can one-round anything that flies and I think he 2-rounds tigers. Even if he doesn't, we can have Elincia use Mercy with them to get easy kills. He is actually a good candidate for going to the hawk army.

As I said, everyone would love to go to the Hawk army, and "being a good candidate" isn't going to make an excuse for Nolan (everyone is). Unfortunately, you need some dudes somewhere else, and the Hawk Army has limited spots to begin with. Also, the huge EXP pool is only at 4-5. In 4-1, Nolan still has his underleveled ass to carry around against Ranulf's wtfpwn.

Yeah, it sucks that no enemy on this game has skills... However, it means that if taken to endgame (which isn't a bad idea altogether) he can have extra skills on, because Nihil occupies no space.

Wow, did you even read the passage you quoted? I explained why Nolan holding on to that skill is detrimental towards the rest of the team.

Too bad that just because someone has an innate skill doesn't mean he has dibs on it. All it means is that it uses up 0 capacity as long as he never takes it off throughout the entire game. Unfortunately, others do want that Nihil despite it costing capacity on them. Most notably, Trueblades and Laguz Royals, who do much more to Auras than Nolan could ever hope for, and in return, would take much more damage if greedy Nolan keeps Nihil all for himself. They are also better suited for taking on Dheginsea, Levail and Sephiran, and the former two are taken on when you do not have Nasir's Nihil yet.

He still doesn't start off transformed. And it is still kinda pointless.

You usually don't attack on turn 1, and one turn is all he needs to get Laguz Stone/Olivi Grass going. What is pointless? I seriously can't make out what you're calling pointless even reading back. I guess arguing about Ranulf's transforming is pointless.

We're human. Mistakes happen. Not that often of course, but not having a problem<having a problem.

It is pretty hard to make a mistake like sending someone into a range of 7+ enemies without doing so on purpose. Again, you'd have a point if Nolan could take on seven dudes at once on his part of the war.

You're not guaranteed to get the desert laguz gem, and the other one is for the heron. The money is for weapons and whatnot. It doesn't leave you with much money.

How are you not guaranteed to get it? Sure, it's chance based, but you can try it as long as you want. Why would you not loot the desert completely? It's not like it's a very quick to clear chapter. Any time lost by finding that thing is more than made up for by how much extra hax you get from whoever uses it.

For money problems, are you kidding me? You have one chapter with enemies you have to kill left in endgame, and Volke just gave Ike a shitload of money, and everyone's gold pools got merged together (most notably the CRK gold pool, which hardly has any reasons to be used for much).

Nolan has quite a good amount of skill in the first place, and in second place, 70 accuracy is average for a weapon. That it's worse than the other 2 is irrelevant. And if you're really worried about the accuracy, you can always forge one, they're not that expensive.

What it is "for a weapon" does not matter. Nolan still has rather shaky hit with a Hand Axe, especially against the more dodgy enemies, or those on terrain, and he can also get fucked by Biorhythm. For forging, needing to forge hit on a weapon > having perfect accuracy (like Ranulf).

The fact that they break sooner is something that you have to know to get around.

The fact that Lucius dies sooner is something that you have to know to get around.

The fact that Ranulf transforms is something that you have to know to get around.

The fact that Est dies to everything and can't hurt shit is something you have to know to get around.

In your own words, having a problem < not having a problem. I explained why this is a problem in the very passage you quoted.

I agree with you there. However you can't asume that every battle Ranulf participates in is a 3 round battle, so you can't say that only 35 enemies are needed. But it is true that the S rank will be almost finished when the army choice comes. Maybe 75%, because Ranulf gets only 5 chapters.

I am not assuming three-round battles, lol. 35 enemies, two strikes on each, makes 70. I don't know what you're thinking of. "Only 5 chapters"? He only needs seven 2-round battles on average in every one of the five maps he's in to reach S Strike. That's nothing given his awesome offense, mobility and defense.

On to the new points I want to introduce.

Nolan is a fair endgame candidate. After the laguz fest, he should look something like this. Since we may want to save Tarvos, we'll avoid using it for a while (more on that in a minute).

[stats]

Would you look at that, Nolan is still losing everything even at third tier, except he wins 1 atk with Silver Poleax, and he gets 31 avo if you're being a nutter with supports.

That would be really close to SS. We might as well consider it being SS and add that extra 5 atk. But anyways. This is them when the 70 something units you get on the whole game are united in front of the tower of guidance. So you take all the forced and then you have 10 other units. 4 royals will make 6. That means that you have little choice of units.

Yep. This is why part 4 is the least relevant, as I said before, since space is so damn limited. Also, they are some of the shortest maps in the entire game. E-1 is quite long, but E-2 is pretty much a joke chapter since you can just get the Wishblade and then kill the Black Knight all in 2-3 turns max. E-3 and E-4 aren't very long either, there are plenty of rushing techniques involving Herons and Royals that insta-kill the bosses here. E-5 takes a little while, but it's pretty much all about whacking auras as hard as you can while not dying to spirits, and auras do not move, so they're not really enemies as much as breakable walls that hurt you without Nihil. Said otherwise, it's not much of a chapter, just a single boss fight.

Zihark is a good swordmaster, so he is likely to go in.

Zihark is in his prime, yes, but he has fierce competition. He's still a likely underleveled Dawn Brigade dude, and Mia is very much on par if not beating him. You're not guaranteed to bring a Trueblade at all. And with Avo being as unreliable as it is after E-2 (dragons and spirits have huuuge hit), even if Zihark gets in, Nolan might not.

Then, the Urvan is a really competitive weapon. There's Haar and Boyd who want it (maybe someone else, but I don't quite remember at this point). However, Nolan has 2 choices here. He can go for Urvan (which would make him uber), or he can go for his loyal Tarvos (which is only the 2nd strongest axe and has better hit than the silver poleax). There's also the small defense bonus that the Tarvos gives, but the Res bonus actually more useful here. But hey, it's still there. This again helps the team as a whole, since he doesn't take the strongest weapon for other axe users.

Nolan adds no net worth to the team when using Urvan, since anyone wiht SS axes can bring it (as you said), so in order to not hurt the team he will probably be using Tarvos in endgame. The most laughable part is that he still loses def to Ranulf by .5 even with the +4 def bonus, and Ranulf wins hp/res, so his concrete durability is still better.

On the other hand, we have Ranulf. Ranulf is too a good combat unit. However, he will not get that laguz gem

Why not? He can use it without much of a penalty to the team, and you have two. Giffca is fine using a Laguz Stone, since his gauge goes down super slowly, and the same goes for Nasir/Ena/Kurthnaga if you want to transform them. The only dude who wants a Laguz Stone otherwise is Reyson if you picked him, though if you want quadruple vigor Rafiel often suffices as well, so all you lose out on there is a bit of movement and canto. Or Reyson can just use a Laguz Stone and it makes not much of a difference, if at all.

Ranulf himself becomes very very very hax with a Laguz Gem since he no longer has any transform issues, but still his full stats.

In any case, he still has the issue about fire magic, and here there're a lot of enemies that use fire magic.

Hardly. There's a few Arcfire tomes in E-1, but they don't move. E-2 enemies are rather insignificant due to the winning condition explained earlier. E-3 has no fire magic. E-4 can be raped with royals, so this issue only exists in E-5's Fire Spirits, and Ranulf does better against every other type of spirit (or any magic type...or actually any kind of enemy).

And then Giffca has a removable Nullify and you get another one from 2-F, so Ranulf can just equip one of those and he wins against even Fire tomes.

I would break it down once more, but I think it's pretty clear overall now that Ranulf is better.

Edited January 27, 2009 by Mekkah