Krevin Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Budokai Tenkaichi 2 has tiers? loooool Yep. http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/archi...p/t-549788.html That's not the whole cast, though. There's a severe lack of Great Saiyawoman on that list :/ Kinda like in pokemon how a normally underused poke gets beat out by so many, and yet it excels when playing in uber tier where it can't be touched normally. *cough shedinja cough* Yeah, except in Pokemon the Uber Tier is usually banned from tourney play, so Shedinja is bumped back to UU because damn near every Poke in OU tier can hit Shedinja, and Shedinja can hardly do any damage to anybody ever. It's more like how Lapras is OU instead of BL in Pokemon RBY: Your enemy is almost guaranteed to have a Golem or Rhydon on his/her team, and Lapras hits them so zetta hard, and then Lapras can play a fair wall against Slowbro and Exeggutor (unless you get unlucky and your enemy put Mega Drain on their Exeggutor). It also exploits Zapdos' Ice weakness, making Zapdos less of a counter. Lapras holds his/her own in OU, but against BL or UU tiers your Lapras is gonna die hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Yodha Stasella Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Kinda like in pokemon how a normally underused poke gets beat out by so many, and yet it excels when playing in uber tier where it can't be touched normally. *cough shedinja cough*with Stealth Rock, Shedinja sucks even in uber tier playing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metal Rabbit Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Of course, but how many uber tiers use stealth rock when most of them aren't weak to it? I'm frankly more concerned about a groudon or darkrai killing it than stealth rock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Of course, but how many uber tiers use stealth rock when most of them aren't weak to it? I'm frankly more concerned about a groudon or darkrai killing it than stealth rock.If Shedinja begins to become a common and significant threat in the Uber metagame, then they'll start carrying moves or Pokemon to take out Shedinja with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metal Rabbit Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Well, you've got a point there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 I can't believe Ike's so low on that Tier list. He's better than my Marth in alot of cases... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krevin Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 I can't believe Ike's so low on that Tier list. He's better than my Marth in alot of cases... haha, you're trolling, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 haha, you're trolling, right? I'm serious, my Ike performs better than my Marth in many situations... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doom103 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 I can't believe Ike's so low on that Tier list. He's better than my Marth in alot of cases... Raven, maybe your just better with Ike Ike is pretty terrible, I think he should move down one level. I main him though ^_^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krevin Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 I'm serious, my Ike performs better than my Marth in many situations... All of my characters, save for maybe Sonic, perform better than my Wario, but that doesn't mean Wario should be bottom tier. Ike is slow, and his high-knockback makes it hard for him to combo (comboing somebody from 0-100 and keeping them right in front of you >>>>>>>> hitting them once for 12 damage and forcing them to recover, especially since Ike can't gimp for shit). Marth is fast and almost all of his moves are either killing moves or low knockback moves that can be used for epic combos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Ike sucks, but he doesn't suck enough to be put in Low tier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krevin Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 (edited) Yes he does. EDIT: Roy is top tier, he has fire. Edited January 12, 2009 by uıʌǝɹʞ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doom103 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Ike sucks, but he doesn't suck enough to be put in Low tier. Yes he does. Ike has very limited options, no combos, horrible grabs, alot of useless moves or very situational moves. Ike's attacks wither start slow, or end slow. Nair is the exception. and after a while Nair get pretty predictable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krevin Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Yes he does.Ike has very limited options, no combos, horrible grabs, alot of useless moves or very situational moves. Ike's attacks wither start slow, or end slow. Nair is the exception. and after a while Nair get pretty predictable. BUT ROYIKE HAS FIRE!!!1! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 (edited) Ike also doesn't have any non-IC match-ups where a single grab means game over. His attacks, while sluggish, control a lot of space, especially his fair (which is fast enough to be safely used) and USmash. His quick draw has a lot of priority, so even that is a viable option if used properly. He has unsafe horizontal recovery and no diagonal recovery at all, but at least Aether allows him to never get edge hogged, ever, and his recovery is STILL much better than Link's. Ike isn't going to be beating top tiers consistently anytime soon, but I feel he still has enough options to be competitive and work around his short comings. I don't see him as low/bottom tier. Also, another reason he ended up there on the list is because people actually developed his metagame, which hasn't really happened for characters like Pokemon Trainer. Edited January 12, 2009 by FE3 Player Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krevin Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 (edited) Ike also doesn't have any non-IC match-ups where a single grab means game over. Okay, either you're trolling or you have no idea what game we're talking about. Dedede chaingrabs Ike to ~80-90%, and then camps the ledge with nair and bair. Falco chaingrabs Ike to ~40%, which gets him off the ledge and in danger of being spiked. MetaKnight chaingrabs Ike off the stage, and who cares about damage? Metaknight is gonna combo you away while you're falling downwards, so you can't recover. Wario chaingrabs Ike, though I haven't seen enough Wario-Ike matches to know exactly how useful it is I'm almost 100% sure that there are other characters with deadly chaingrabs against Ike that I'm not realizing, but ICs aren't the only one that kill Ike with just a grab. EDIT: And IIRC Wolf can chaingrab Ike, plus Yoshi can do the Krevslap combo (dash -> double kick -> dash -> double kick, etc. until they're off the ledge, then spike with fair) with ease against Ike. His attacks, while sluggish, control a lot of space, especially his fair (which is fast enough to be safely used) and USmash. His quick draw has a lot of priority, so even that is a viable option if used properly. His usmash and fair are predictable, most enemies will usually be able to get away from it. Quick draw is one of his only good moves. He has unsafe horizontal recovery and no diagonal recovery at all, but at least Aether allows him to never get edge hogged, ever, and his recovery is STILL much better than Link's. You can edgehog Aether, you just have to time it properly. Ike isn't going to be beating top tiers consistently anytime soon, but I feel he still has enough options to be competitive and work around his short comings. I don't see him as low/bottom tier. Captain Falcon has enough options to be competitive, that doesn't mean he's Top Tier. What you have to realize about smash is that your match isn't guaranteed to go a certain way just because of your characters tier placement or match-up against your enemy. I've seen some highly skilled Pikachus get beaten by equally-skilled Foxes, despite the Pikachu - Fox matchup being dramatically in Pikachu's favor. I've seen a Mario destroy a MetaKnight, and both players were really good (one of them is JWN3D, who got an honorable mention in the Mario power rankings, and IIRC the other was Eagle, best MK in Vegas, so that should give you a perspective of their skill level). TL;DR: Quit bitching. No matter where your character falls, he/she will always be usable to some extent. Edited January 12, 2009 by uıʌǝɹʞ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 (edited) Ehh... I'm not griping about where he fell, I'm defending his placement. People are saying he should be lower, but I feel he is as low enough as it is. Dedede chaingrabs Ike to ~80-90%, and then camps the ledge with nair and bair.DeDeDe chain grabs a lot of characters up to high percents. A lot of characters he doesn't chain grab this way are high/top tier anyway.Falco chaingrabs Ike to ~40%, which gets him off the ledge and in danger of being spiked.Falco also does this to many characters.I'm almost 100% sure that there are other characters with deadly chaingrabs against Ike that I'm not realizing, but ICs aren't the only one that kill Ike with just a grab.But are they infinites? That's the major thing I am talking about when mentioning ICs.His usmash and fair are predictable, most enemies will usually be able to get away from it. Quick draw is one of his only good moves.Again though, these moves are for controlling space. Characters getting away from these moves may be something Ike can exploit. Edited January 12, 2009 by FE3 Player Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 (edited) CGing with Wario is tough online. :( Almost everyone in low tier has some kind of really stupid glaring weakness like an infinite or can't kill +meh matchups or worse. Ike just has meh matchups, he's pretty much where he belongs. *coughsonicformidtier* Edited January 12, 2009 by Mac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krevin Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Ehh... I'm not griping about where he fell, I'm defending his placement. People are saying he should be lower, but I feel he is as low enough as it is. k DeDeDe chain grabs a lot of characters up to high percents. A lot of characters he doesn't chain grab this way are high/top tier anyway. Characters that Dedede can't chaingrab with his dthrow, by tier: SS: MetaKnight A: Game&Watch, Marth B: Olimar C: Pikachu, Kirby, Ice Climbers D: Zamus, Toon Link, Peach E: Zelda, Sheik F: Lucas, Ness, Squirtle G: Jigglypuff I'm a bit unsure of Falco, Sonic, and Pit, since I've never seen Dedede chaingrab Falco (all the D3 vs Falco matches I've seen, Falco RAPED before Dedede had a chance to grab) or Sonic (I don't know many Sonic players), and I heard somebody say that Pit can break out of it. Anyways, my point is: A lot of the characters he doesn't chainthrow are closer to the middle of the tier list. Besides, whether or not he can do it to other characters doesn't change the fact that Dedede's grab is instant death for Ike. Falco also does this to many characters. Once again... But are they infinites? That's the major thing I am talking about when mentioning ICs. They don't need to be infinities. They can all be used for 0-Deaths, and 0-deaths are far more troublesome than infinities. Again though, these moves are for controlling space. Characters getting away from these moves may be something Ike can exploit. It would be something Ike could exploit, were he faster or in possession of a projectile, but he's slow and has no projectiles, so it's more likely going to be Ike that will be exploited if the enemy gets a way. *coughsonicformidtier* *coughsonicforremovedfromsmashtier* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doom103 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Ike also doesn't have any non-IC match-ups where a single grab means game over. His attacks, while sluggish, control a lot of space, especially his fair (which is fast enough to be safely used) and USmash. His quick draw has a lot of priority, so even that is a viable option if used properly.He has unsafe horizontal recovery and no diagonal recovery at all, but at least Aether allows him to never get edge hogged, ever, and his recovery is STILL much better than Link's. Ike isn't going to be beating top tiers consistently anytime soon, but I feel he still has enough options to be competitive and work around his short comings. I don't see him as low/bottom tier. Also, another reason he ended up there on the list is because people actually developed his metagame, which hasn't really happened for characters like Pokemon Trainer. Qucik Draw is horrid let's start by that He's got no useful AT's, and there really isn't that structured of a Meta Game with Ike yet and you pretty much said why Ike should be lower Mario is indefinably better than Ike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krevin Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Qucik Draw is horrid let's start by thatHe's got no useful AT's, and there really isn't that structured of a Meta Game with Ike yet and you pretty much said why Ike should be lower Mario is indefinably better than Ike Quickdraw is a decent attack, it's just shite for recovery. No useful ATs? He's got quite a few involving Aether and the ledge, and they're all useful to some extent. Ike > Mario, because Mario really can't kill anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Dedede can chain grab Marth, Sonic and Pit if he's frame perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doom103 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Quickdraw is a decent attack, it's just shite for recovery.No useful ATs? He's got quite a few involving Aether and the ledge, and they're all useful to some extent. Ike > Mario, because Mario really can't kill anything. How is QD useful? Reverse Aether is common sense >_> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 It's more like how Lapras is OU instead of BL in Pokemon RBY: Your enemy is almost guaranteed to have a Golem or Rhydon on his/her team, and Lapras hits them so zetta hard, and then Lapras can play a fair wall against Slowbro and Exeggutor (unless you get unlucky and your enemy put Mega Drain on their Exeggutor). It also exploits Zapdos' Ice weakness, making Zapdos less of a counter. Lapras holds his/her own in OU, but against BL or UU tiers your Lapras is gonna die hard. Mega Drain on Exeggutor... doesn't help it at all against Lapras. It still does less damage than Psychic and doesn't heal enough HP to be worth keeping Exeggutor in. Zapdos is also not a Lapras counter because it doesn't resist any of Lapras's moves and is not a safe switch-in. Against BL and UU I can only imagine Lapras's rapage increases. Great coverage, great stats - the only Pokemon doing decent damage to Lapras are like, Razor Leaf grassers, and they're shut down by Ice Beam/Blizzard. Aside from Shedinja, there really are no good examples of "lower tier sucks in lower tier but beats upper tiers," because if that were true then it wouldn't be a low tier Pokemon in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 It would be something Ike could exploit, were he faster or in possession of a projectile, but he's slow and has no projectiles, so it's more likely going to be Ike that will be exploited if the enemy gets a way.When people stop focusing on doing as many combos as they can, then application will become apparent. Brawl is more about limiting your opponent's options than it is doing combos especially with "lol low hitstun" in effect.whether or not he can do it to other characters doesn't change the fact that Dedede's grab is instant death for Ike.0-80% is not the same as zero to death. He'll take quite a bit of damage, but he still at least have a chance to prolong getting killed and do damage himself.Once again...They don't need to be infinities. They can all be used for 0-Deaths, and 0-deaths are far more troublesome than infinities. AFAIK it's possible to avoid or survive Falco's spike at the end of his chain grab. DI and tech off the wall of the stage to recover from it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.