H5 Tier list topic

[Dat Nick]

err right. Must not have been fully functional, since Abel>Cain has only been argued and proven on so many occasions.

[CT075]

I think that Gordin should go up a bit. I don't really have any reasons (yet) because I'm going to start a debate with Reinfleche (Gordin vs. Jeorge), and I don't really want to have to type any of my arguments twice. So, I'll link to it later. (After I open...) Don't do anything because of this post, I just wanted to express my opinion on the tier list. (Do stuff after the debate is over.) Oh, and like Tino said earlier, once it starts, don't counter my arguments until the debate is over.

[Rodykitty]

We would only try to counter points if you actually tried to bring them up in this thread, and while I am not fully sure of debate rules, I doubt others joining in isn't allowed anyway.

I do want to say though, it may actually be a good idea to actually state your claims in this thread if you want Gordon to rise. Gordon vs. Jeorge isn't going to make Gordon rise because:

- Gordon is already above Jeorge

- If Jeorge wins, then either Jeorge rises or Gordon drops

[Dr. Tarrasque]

We would only try to counter points if you actually tried to bring them up in this thread, and while I am not fully sure of debate rules, I doubt others joining in isn't allowed anyway.

I do want to say though, it may actually be a good idea to actually state your claims in this thread if you want Gordon to rise. Gordon vs. Jeorge isn't going to make Gordon rise because:

- Gordon is already above Jeorge

- If Jeorge wins, then either Jeorge rises or Gordon drops

-Or nothing happens because the debate didn't present anything new for either side.

[Rodykitty]

-Or nothing happens because the debate didn't present anything new for either side.

That too.

[Tino]

Hmm, the proof is really killing my arguments <_<

Anyway, because we apparantly are now doing this on a chapter-by-chapter basis, I'm going to jump in there as well. Here's what I think about Chapter 1.

h4x:

Jagen

Shiida

Cav:

Abel

Cain

Mid:

Draug

Gordin

Kinda crappy for now:

Marth

Riff

Considering how there are 11 Pirates in Chapter 1 and only 2 other enemies, I think those are the enemies we should focus on.

Pirate: 15 Atk, 6 AS, 100 Hit ,, 25-26 HP, 4 Def

So Jeigan is most likely the best unit here, since he can take the most hits and deal the most damage with his Silver Lance. I can agree with you on that one. However, I don't really know what makes Sheeda any better than Abel.

Sheeda: 12 Atk, 12 AS, 100 Hit ,, 16 HP, 7 Def, 16 Avo (Wing Spear)

Sheeda: 11 Atk, 9 AS, 80 Hit ,, 16 HP, 7 Def, 13 Avo (Javelin)

Abel: 13 Atk, 6 AS, 78 Hit ,, 20 HP, 7 Def, 7 Avo (Javelin)

What I see here is a Sheeda who can double pirates to which she deals 8 damage per hit (7 if they have A axes), so she two-rounds. Granted, that's quite some good offense, but this also comes at a price, namely that she in return gets two-rounded horribly. They deal 8-9 damage (dependent on whether they have A axes) and her Avo obviously isn't reliable yet. So she's more advantaged when using Javelins, and then she stops doubling and deals 6-7 damage, therefore four-rounding or five-rounding. Abel on the other hand, is dealing 8-9 damage and therefore three-rounding or four-rouding.

Obviously neither have very good offense, however, due to Sheeda's absolutely crap durability (Abel at least gets three-rounded instead of two-rounded), she can barely utulize that Wing Spear of hers, and with a Javelin she's downright worse than Abel. So yeah, I'd say that if anything, Abel and Sheeda should switch positions, or that Sheeda should drop a tier and at least go below Abel.

Then Sheeda quite easily wins against Kain, since he can't use Javelins, which is quite a huge negative.

Doga: 14 Atk, 3 AS, 73 Hit ,, 20 HP, 11 Def, 3 Avo (Javelin)

So Doga is three-rounding (though granted, he does have trouble hitting) a bit unreliably, but then there's another thing he has: durability. Doga survives a total of four attacks before he gets killed, which makes him a very valuable unit. He can use an Iron Lance instead of a Javelin to hit enemies more reliably and still not die. Durability, how odd it may sound, is possibly more important than offense in the early chapters, because your units get killed so quickly. So where do I think this puts him? I'm sure you're going to laugh out loud, but I'm really starting to think he should be in Top just below Jeigan.

Gordon: 10 Atk, 4 AS, 95 Hit ,, 18 HP, 6 Def, 6 Avo (Iron Bow)

Gordon: 13 Atk, 1 AS, 85 Hit ,, 18 HP, 6 Def, 3 Avo (Steel Bow)

Honesetly, why is such a failure up there in Mid? Even though he has 2 range to make use of, his durability fails so hard that it's not funny anymore. Using Iron makes him deal a pathetic 6 damage, making him five-round. He can three-round with Steel, but that means he gets one-rounded himself. So either way, he's a massive failure. I'd say he should swap places with Marth (Riff is obviously at the very bottom of the list, since he doesn't really do anything in this chapter).

Marth: 10 Atk, 7 AS, 106 Hit ,, 18 HP, 7 Def, 10 Avo (Iron Sword)

Admittedly, Marth's offense isn't much better than Gordon's (though Marth can use the Rapier for a Crt boost), but he's a bit more durable, and I value that more than the fail offense Gordon has anyways.

So, a more accurate list would be:

Top

Jeigan

Doga

Mid

Abel

Sheeda

Kain

Low/Bottom

Marth

Gordon

Riff

Edited March 4, 2009 by Tino

[Rodykitty]

That's a good post, but I would appreciate if you kept your focus on giving reasons to make changes to Sweet Tooth's lists rather than making your own. This isn't a contest to see whose list is better, so I would rather there is one list everyone is trying to change.

[Tino]

That's a good post, but I would appreciate if you kept your focus on giving reasons to make changes to Sweet Tooth's lists rather than making your own. This isn't a contest to see whose list is better, so I would rather there is one list everyone is trying to change.

What?

I addressed the points I disagree with and then applied those to the list. I suppose calling it "my" list was a bit confusing, but I meant it as "the tier list with my points applied to it".

I guess I'll edit that to prevent more confusion.

Edited March 4, 2009 by Tino

[Rodykitty]

Just try to argue changes. Don't say that your list would be more accurate or better, then after everything is done, we can convince the Ch. 1 list to be changed.

Also, Gordon was listed in Mid because he's a valuable tool for weakening enemies, which a lot of Ch. 1's cast has trouble with killing on this chapter. Being able to get in safe hits is extremely important in a chapter where healing is difficult.

[grandjackal]

I noticed a bit of Tino's post...Ummm...Her evade isn't reliable YET? Evade is never reliable in this game. Especially in merciless mode. Enemies have a bit better accuracy, they do more damage to hit so there's fewer hits a character can risk doging (especially Shiida). It can't even get high naturally, I'd not dream of relying on avoid in this game.

[Tino]

Just saying where they should be placed according to my argument, but whatever. I just put that list there so that you would have a better idea of where I was trying to get with my arguments.

Also, Gordon was listed in Mid because he's a valuable tool for weakening enemies, which a lot of Ch. 1's cast has trouble with killing on this chapter. Being able to get in safe hits is extremely important in a chapter where healing is difficult.

He deals the least damage of all your units (aside of Marth, who he ties Atk with, but Marth has Rapier for extra Crt). How does that make him any better for weakening than the other units? All of them (save Kain and Marth) have Javelins to throw at other units or have high Atk or good durability anyway (Doga and Jeigan). And if Gordon wants to do any good weakening, he murders his own durability since he gets one-rounded. Seriously, Gordon is a massive failure, even with his 2 range.

Her evade isn't reliable YET? Evade is never reliable in this game. Especially in merciless mode. Enemies have a bit better accuracy, they do more damage to hit so there's fewer hits a character can risk doging (especially Shiida). It can't even get high naturally, I'd not dream of relying on avoid in this game.

Agreed, but as far as I know, Sheeda can get fairly decent Avo as one of the very few units in the game, which is why I said that it was "not yet reliable". Also, even if it never becomes reliable, she still has Avo that most, if not all units can't ever dream of.

Edit: Also, if there are any other points of me you'd like to address, please do so.

Edited March 4, 2009 by Tino

[Rodykitty]

Agreed, but as far as I know, Sheeda can get fairly decent Avo as one of the very few units in the game, which is why I said that it was "not yet reliable". Also, even if it never becomes reliable, she still has Avo that most, if not all units can't ever dream of.

Not even Sheeda will get reliable avoid. Just because it's better than other units doesn't mean she'll be dodging frequently.

He deals the least damage of all your units (aside of Marth, who he ties Atk with, but Marth has Rapier for extra Crt). How does that make him any better for weakening than the other units? All of them (save Kain and Marth) have Javelins to throw at other units or have high Atk or good durability anyway (Doga and Jeigan). And if Gordon wants to do any good weakening, he murders his own durability since he gets one-rounded. Seriously, Gordon is a massive failure, even with his 2 range.

He gets a Steel Bow. That steel bow is doing just as much damage as Jeigan with a Javelin.

And here's the great part. It's actually an accurate weapon compared to Javelins.

So what are you saying about him dealing the least damage? He's doing just as much, and actually doing so reliably besides when you have to keep him out of damage's way.

[Tino]

Not even Sheeda will get reliable avoid. Just because it's better than other units doesn't mean she'll be dodging frequently.

Whatever. My argument remains the same anyway.

He gets a Steel Bow. That steel bow is doing just as much damage as Jeigan with a Javelin.

And here's the great part. It's actually an accurate weapon compared to Javelins.

So what are you saying about him dealing the least damage? He's doing just as much, and actually doing so reliably besides when you have to keep him out of damage's way.

Did you even read what I said? I'll rephrase it for you: If Gordon uses a Steel Bow, he basically commits suicide because he gets one-rounded.

He fails at dealing damage with Iron, and he gets killed in one round if he uses Steel. Massive fail.

[Rodykitty]

Then use iron if you know he may take a hit. Use Steel every other time.

It's not massive fail since he has an option that actually does damage, and an option that keeps him from getting killed.

[Mekkah]

Did you even read what I said? I'll rephrase it for you: If Gordon uses a Steel Bow, he basically commits suicide because he gets one-rounded.

At this point, everyone and their mom gets 2-rounded anyway with massive hit, so massive turtling is required to even take on more than one pirate, and everyone who can is using Javelins since otherwise they are going to get killed on enemy phase. Having to be shielded from all attacks sucks mostly in FE, but in this chapter it's forgiveable, especially since accurate "powerful" 2-range is given in return.

[Tino]

At this point, everyone and their mom gets 2-rounded anyway with massive hit, so massive turtling is required to even take on more than one pirate, and everyone who can is using Javelins since otherwise they are going to get killed on enemy phase. Having to be shielded from all attacks sucks mostly in FE, but in this chapter it's forgiveable, especially since accurate "powerful" 2-range is given in return.

Actually, no.

15 Atk Pirates can possibly one-round Gordon (if he decides to get some decent offense). They three-round Marth, Kain and Abel. They two-round Sheeda, five-round Doga and four-round Jeigan. Then all of those units, except for Marth, also have 2 range with Javelin (with which they also counter), which admittedly is a bit less accurate, but their hit rates are still fairly high. At least they'll hit more often than not.

It's forgivable to an extent, I suppose, but not when you're one-rounded. Three-rounding at 2 range definitely doesn't offset getting one-rounded. And if he deals 6 damage and gets two-rounded, this "powerful" 2 range of his gone. Also, being an archer who can't counter, he's an enemy magnet, which makes him fail even harder.

Edited March 4, 2009 by Tino

[Rodykitty]

I just explained why Gordon isn't a complete failure in my last post.

All you're proving is something already established: These characters are above Gordon. But what you're also thinking is that Gordon is epic fail and useless. Mid tier was spot on for him due to how useful his offense is, because being able for a melee unit to get a kill without getting counter attacked is one of the best things that you can do on this chapter, as it not only makes it safer for that melee unit, but makes it safer for Gordon as well.

[Tino]

I just explained why Gordon isn't a complete failure in my last post.

All you're proving is something already established: These characters are above Gordon. But what you're also thinking is that Gordon is epic fail and useless. Mid tier was spot on for him due to how useful his offense is, because being able for a melee unit to get a kill without getting counter attacked is one of the best things that you can do on this chapter, as it not only makes it safer for that melee unit, but makes it safer for Gordon as well.

Yes, I indeed think Gordon is quite fail, even in this chapter, where he's supposed to have some usefulness, however... Oh fuck, I'm not going to say it again. I've repeated the part about getting one-rounded, low Atk with Iron, etc. multiple times now.

True, he enables a melee unit to get a kill without getting countered. But guess what? Everybody except for Marth can do that! And then they also are more durable themselves when they do that. Oh wait, now I'm proving that he's worse than others again, right? How silly of me.

But seriously, tell me, how is getting one-rounded in any way good? How is it possible that you don't think of that as a massive failure when he doesn't really add something to the team, since others can do the same thing?

[Rodykitty]

True, he enables a melee unit to get a kill without getting countered. But guess what? Everybody except for Marth can do that!

How is it possible that you don't think of that as a massive failure when he doesn't really add something to the team, since others can do the same thing?

Kain & Abel do the same thing as the majority of the cast of the game, therefore they don't add anything to your team.

[Tino]

Kain & Abel do the same thing as the majority of the cast of the game, therefore they don't add anything to your team.

You're completely missing the point.

Gordon's 2 range is helpful to the team. However, his durability also suck very hard. He's an enemy magnet and gets one-rounded if he decides to go for pretty good offense. Other units however, who can do the same thing as Gordon (as in attacking from 2 range), do this more efficiently because they aren't actually getting killed off in one round.

How is getting one-rounded good in any way, when others do what you do better?

[Rodykitty]

Tell me where I say getting one rounded is good.

Tell me where I say Gordon is just as good as other units.

What I am attempting to explain is that Gordon is not a useless failure. You even said so yourself just now by saying that his range is helpful to the team.

Sweet Tooth had a good idea putting Gordon at the bottom of Mid tier, then making the bottom tier called "sucky for now". If you really want accuracy, Gordon would have his own tier, which would happen if Draug rises up.

[Tino]

What I am attempting to explain is that Gordon is not a useless failure. You even said so yourself just now by saying that his range is helpful to the team.

What I said was that his range is helpful, yes, but that's by far and away offset by getting one-rounded. Just use common sense: how is he going to utilize that 2 range if he doesn't even exist anymore?

[Rodykitty]

how is he going to utilize that 2 range if he doesn't even exist anymore?

He exists, so he gets to utilize it.

[Tino]

He exists, so he gets to utilize it.

He gets one-rounded. One attack against him and he doesn't exist anymore. This reduces his usefulness to such a huge extent that I would call him quite a worthless unit, despite his powerful 2 range.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I dunno how you go about that chapter but keeping Gordon alive has never been a problem for me:

Only way I can see him dying on that video is if I ended up getting some serious bad luck with the Javelins. It isn't too difficult to make use of his offense while keeping him alive for that chapter.

Edited March 4, 2009 by Levin