H5 Tier list topic

[Dat Nick]

I brought this up earlier. They said that Gordin's chip damage taht wasn't being replaced early on>Jeorge's midgame chip damage, where the game is teh easiest, and after some time Minerva can take his bow and do better or something like that.

What they should have said is Gordon as earlymidgame healer>>>>Jeorge's "utility". 9 str and not doubling with 12 spd starting at C10 really doesn't account for much utility, I daresay Gordon's C1 alone is worth more.

At least I always hear CUrate as being the reason why Gordin>Jeorge. Hell, I always hear Curate being bought up with Gordin, in general.

Edited November 8, 2009 by BBblader

[tehnikhil]

Ah. That was what was told to me when I questioned that placement, so I just repeated it

[Colonel M]

The H5 Character Rankings Topic

The only thing that needs to be tested is if Hunter->General!Ceaser is better than Fighter!Hero. Aside from that, the information in here should do.

P.S. I'd definitely read Lorenz. >_>;

Edited November 8, 2009 by Colonel M

[Candlejack]

Gordon has chip damage? So does Jeigan and Doga and at least THEY'LL survive the inevitable counterattack.

And lol @ Curate argument. You can say that about anyone.

ANYONE.

Jeorge can also actually make chip damage too. That STR + Steel/Iron Bow = chip damage.

[Rodykitty]

At least I always hear CUrate as being the reason why Gordin>Jeorge. Hell, I always hear Curate being bought up with Gordin, in general.

I never considered Cleric alone, I considered Cleric + Archer utility which was why he was above Wrys at one point.

[Dat Nick]

And lol @ Curate argument. You can say that about anyone.

ANYONE.

yes

However, units like Nabarl, Cain, Abel, etc actually want to fight whereas nobody cares about Gordin's combat abilities. He's been acting as a healbot for 7 chapters and has only been useful chip damage in one chapter. Jeorge has only been useful chip damage in one chapter.

[Rodykitty]

Tiki skyrocketed to above Dolph.

(For those not paying attention, she was deep within low, almost bottom).

Edited November 12, 2009 by FE3 Player

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Tiki should be in the same tier as nagi. I think just existing on 23 and 24 is enough to get her there or even directly above nagi. 23 is full of mages. Tiki's base 21 res is quite nice here. Throw in a pure water/ward staff and she is pulling some of the best mage tanking in the game aside from merric.

You already read what base tiki can do to the mamkute's on 24/endgame. She also enables warp skip on final (and 24) without needing ridiculous amounts of experience/sealing/forges dumped into her. Sure she dies in the process unless it's the finishing blow but she still is pulling a major positive here in helping to trivialize the final chapters of the game. I honestly wouldn't even bother deploying her on 21/22... and she would still be virtually the same the next 3 chapters.

[Rodykitty]

Tiki should be in the same tier as nagi.

Only if everyone agrees.

And by everyone, I don't actually mean EVERYONE.

Edited November 12, 2009 by FE3 Player

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Tiki should be in the same tier as nagi.

Only if everyone agrees.

And by everyone, I don't actually mean EVERYONE.

Unless we count recruitment cost ... I don't really see what is stopping her.

[Rodykitty]

I am waiting for more debate before I make another change. I know what I'm doing.

[Colonel M]

Then... just do it. I don't disagree with Tiki that high anyway. I even agreed it to it, and it was over Dolph to begin with. @_@;

Tiki should probably just go over Gato if we're making Nagi / Gato an actual "line".

Edited November 12, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

Vyland in Low Mid, Tiki above Nagi.

[CATS]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that there are 52 chests in this game and only 2 Master Keys with 5 uses each. Thus, you would need to use Marth or a thief to open the other 42 chests. I don't think I need to explain that a significant portion of those chests are not in a convenient location for Marth to just casually pick them up while he's going towards the throne. Indeed, even if they weren't out of the way, every turn Marth stops to open a chest is a turn on which he could've instead been moving to the throne.

So, why is thief utility considered worthless? Unless either the items in all those chests, or the extra turns it takes Marth to go get them are considered insignificant, and I really don't see how either one of those could be called insignificant.

[Rodykitty]

It isn't considered worthless, only small, because we have no accurate way of determining how it weighs compared to other character strengths and weaknesses other than "lol, positive utility".

Door unlocking IS considered redundant (which is the main efficiency increase), because door keys are handed out to you that are enough to open whatever doors you need to, and they're cheap enough to buy if you really do need more.

Julian is weighed mostly on combat because nobody felt his Thief utility was anything special, so Ricardo and Marth are weighed the same way.

Alternatively, one can think of it as most characters having some, but not all Thief utility.

Edited November 13, 2009 by FE3 Player

[CATS]

So you're saying that it's disregarded because it's difficult to accurately measure its worth? I'll have to disagree with that line of thinking. For starters, you do know that it's worth something, which means that Rickard should be above characters who have nothing, as opposed to his current absurdly low position.

Next, you shouldn't throw something out just because you can't perfectly quantify its worth anyways. Much the opposite. It's there, and you can't just ignore it.

Edited November 13, 2009 by CATS

[Rodykitty]

Rickard should be above characters who have nothing

This is already the case.

[CATS]

Before I open that can of worms, are you going to respond to anything else I said?

[Rodykitty]

Nope.

[CATS]

I see. So essentially your argument is, you're going to place characters where you want based on whatever criteria you want, while defeating any outside logic which might interfere with that by simply ignoring it?

[Colonel M]

Keep in mind CATS that Rickardo is ORKOed constantly, hence it would only apply toward Marth and Julian.

[Rodykitty]

Considering none of your outside logic actually tries to explain why Rickard should rise, yes I'll ignore it.

Colonel M explains it nicely. Right now Rickard's best chance is to rise over Thomas, depending on how much value is put on a Master Seal and EXP.

[CATS]

I was taking issue with this statement moreso than Rickard's placement:

It isn't considered worthless, only small, because we have no accurate way of determining how it weighs compared to other character strengths and weaknesses other than "lol, positive utility".

Stating that thief utility is considered minor simply because its value can't be perfectly quantified, which I strongly disagree with. If you want to consider something minor simply because its value can't be definitely outlined in pure stats, then dancers and healers should be removed from tier lists, fliers should be treated like foot units, etc.

Do you have a response to this? Or more talk about Rickard, which is entirely aside from my point here?

Edited November 13, 2009 by CATS

[Rodykitty]

Rickard still has stats, and would be the worst character in the game if he didn't have Thief utility.

And to answer your question, it isn't considered small because it's hard to quantify vs. other characters, it's considered small because it really is small.

Edited November 13, 2009 by FE3 Player

[Colonel M]

I wouldn't deny it for Marth and Julian tough. If we consider the thieving a positive, it could put Marth over Horace, though I guess Roger is a stump. At best it would defend Julian's spot.

As for Rickard over Thomas? Technically his CEXP is free w/Curate -> Sniper despite being an ass setup though I don't see his combat taking him many places even w/Partia (it'd only be effective in a few ares such as the Draco chapters and when he doubles Cavs). I'd say Rickard's durability is a major detriment too, so basically the weight is dumping a seal to make something work vs. not dumping anything to... dangerously do something.

I'd say Rickard wins here. Though I'd also consider Elice > these two putzes since her positives are far clearer.