H5 Tier list topic

[Progenitus]

Which means Caeda still wins offense. Since Barst needs ~3 levels to gain 1 point of spd (as a fighter anyway; as a hero, liek... 2-3?), this doesn't really make him significantly better at doubling than normal. FOr example, pump him with 3 levels at chapter 18, so he's now 15/8. He only has about 20 spd vs the 16 AS paladins. Caeda should already have 21 a couple of levels after promotion. She's much more reliable at doubling.

Yeah, Barst has a huge durability win, except we were only talking about offense, and it doesn't look like WJC was pushing for Caeda > Barst, but rather she's comparable to him. Though it did seem like he was pushing for Caeda > Merric, which appears to have a case as IIRC Merric does have speed issues.

Edited November 23, 2009 by Andrew W.K.

[Dat Nick]

Depends on your definition of "Speed issues". If "Fast enough to double everything except pegs/wyverns which he has Excalibur for anyway, and Horsemen which Shiida doesn't want to be anywhere near no matter what her class is anyway, and Mamkutes which nobody doubles period except Swordmasters or some shit", is what constitutes as speed issues, Merric has them, but how much do we actually care that he can't double Horsemen and Mercs/Heroes, the latter of which borderline doesn't exist?

Edited November 23, 2009 by laws b122

[Colonel M]

Why do I feel like I talk to myself half the time? >_>;

You can actually extend further with Shiida's utility with the Wing Spear if being a Mage seems to be a problem. With forging it is one of the best weapons to have for quite a while and, on top of that, is only available to Shiida. It's not like she's wtfterrible in the Pegasi class thanks to such a great weapon. Take a random example of +3 Mt on that Wing Spear. That's basically 33 Mt before factoring in Str and the enemy's Def values. Granted this is only on Cavaliers and Armor Knights, but they make up for a good amount of enemies on many maps or come as reinforcements anway.

[dondon151]

I still think PK Shiida is better than mage Shiida.

Also Shiida can go cleric anyway if Merric is going curate, but she'll still have bad durability whereas Merric will not.

Edited November 23, 2009 by dondon151

[Dat Nick]

Raeping Cavs/Armors at 1 range vs Raeping Cavs/armors at chip and raeping archers at 1-range plus having better durability due to not getting raped by arrows and staves.

[Rodykitty]

As much as I should remain neutral, I am in agreement with Sheeda > Merric. She requires non-Cleric leveling as Mage, but will be seeing more combat utility than Merric. She can also use Wing Spear utility, which with forging is definitely better than Mage for sure.

[Progenitus]

If ch 18 paladins have 16 AS, then Merric eneds to be 20/13 to double them. Well, mage -> sage, but even if he goes Curate -> Sage, that only makes it, liek.... 20/11 or so because Curate's spd growth isn't much higher than mage.

Caeda doesn't want to counter horsemen, but when they're lured in you still have to kill them off, and Caeda has an easier time doing that than Merric.

And before promotion, if Merric wants to go mage, Caeda wins offense easily. You can't seriously say that Merric has no issues doubling before promotion, right? And if Merric goes Curate instead, well, WJC already said something about that. Merric's healing can be replicated by most anyone; Caeda's doubling by very few. And Caeda can also switch to cleric sometimes.

Edited November 23, 2009 by Andrew W.K.

[Dat Nick]

If ch 18 paladins have 16 AS, then Merric eneds to be 20/13 to double them. Well, mage -> sage, but even if he goes Curate -> Sage, that only makes it, liek.... 20/11 or so because Curate's spd growth isn't much higher than mage.

I can actually see him at 20/11 by C18. Other than that, fine.

[Don Draper]

Looks like I'll have to settle this the old fashioned way...

Chapter 4:

Caeda 4/0: 17 HP, 7 Atk (Fire), 11 AS, 4 Def

5/0 Barts: 26 HP, 21 Atk (Steel Axe), 10 AS, 6 Def

Thieves: Caeda 4RKOs both, and Barts 2RKOs both. Caeda is 1-2RKO'd, while they 2RKO Barts

Fighter: Caeda 5RKOs and Barts 2RKOs. Both are 2RKO'd

Hunter: Caeda 4RKOs while Barts 2RKOs. Caeda is 2RKO'd and Barts is 3-4RKO'd

Archer: Caeda 4RKOs while Barts 2RKOs. Caeda is 2RKO'd and Barts is 3RKO'd

Armor: Caeda 5RKOs while Barts ORKO's (Hammer). Caeda is 2RKO'd while Barts is 3RKO'd

Horseman: Caeda 5RKOs while Barts 3RKOs. Caeda is 1-2RKO'd while Barts is 2RKO'd

Cav (Iron Sword): Caeda 5RKOs while Barts 3RKOs. Caeda is 2RKO'd (ORKO'd by the Armorslayer guy) while Barts is 2RKO'd

Cav (Iron Lance): Caeda 5RKOs while Barts 3RKOs. Caeda is 2RKO'd while Barts is 3RKO'd

I don't think I need to go into any more detail about Barts wtf destroying Caeda

Chapter 8:

Caeda 11/0: 19 HP, 11 Atk (+1) (Thunder), 16-1 AS, 4 Def

Barts 11/0: 30 HP, 23 Atk (Steel Axe), 11 AS, 7 Def

Cav 3: Caeda 2RKOs while Barts 3RKOs. They 2RKO Caeda and 3RKO Barts

Archers: Both 2RKO. They 2RKO Caeda and 3RKO Barts

Armors: Caeda 2RKOs while Barts ORKOs (with Hammer). They 2RKO Caeda and 3RKO Barts

Horseman: Caeda 4-5RKOs while Barts 2-3RKOs. They 2RKO Caeda while they 3RKO Barts

This isn't even really a good map to compare them, as Cavs usually have Lances instead of Swords, and Barts would be 2RKOing instead. However, Barts is still doing much better against the most common enemy on the map (Horseman, they come every turn in reinforcements). Still a win for Barts I would say.

Chapter 11:

15/1 Mage->Sage Caeda: 27 HP, 14 (+2) Atk (Blizza), 20 AS, 5 Def

15/1 Barst: 36 HP, 30 Atk (Silver Axe), 18 AS, 12 Def

Cavs: Caeda 2RKOs and Barst ORKOs. They 2RKO Caeda and 3RKO Barst

Mercs: Caeda ORKOs-2RKOs and Barst ORKOs. They 2RKO Caeda and 3RKO Barst

Pegs: Both 2RKO. Caeda is 3RKO'd while they 4RKO Barst

Sniper: Both 2RKO. They 2RKO Caeda and 3RKO Barst

Horseman: Both 2RKO. They 2RKO Caeda and 4RKO Barst

Shitstomp still. Barst is doing better offensively (vs. Cavs/Mercs) and taking at least another hit. Advantage Barst (still)

15/6 Mage->Sage Caeda: 28 HP, 21 Atk (+2) (Bolganone), 24 AS, 5 Def

15/6 Barst: 39 HP, 31 Atk (Silver Axe), 20 AS, 13 Def

Horsemen: Both ORKO (Barst OHKOs with Poleaxe). Caeda is 2RKO'd while Barst is 5RKO'd

Wyvern: Caeda 2RKOs while Barst ORKOS the 11 Def Lance variety and 2RKOS the others. Caeda is 2RKO'd while Barst is 3RKO'd

Hero: Caeda ORKO's-2RKOs while Barst 2RKOS unless the Hero has 41 HP,. Caeda is 2RKO'd while Barst is 3RKO'd (unless they go for a range attack)

Cav s: Both ORKO all. Caeda is 2RKO'd while Barst is 3-4RKO'd

Paladin: Caeda 2RKOs while Barst ORKOs. Caeda is 2RKO'd while Barst is 3RKO'd

General: Caeda 2RKOs while Barst ORKOs (Hammer). Caeda is 2RKO'd while Barst is 3RKO'd

Barst is taking 2-3 more hits, and generally killing enemies in one fewer rounds. Its still a shitstomp

It gets worse for Shiida once Paladins replace Cavs (they have the res to be 2RKO'd) and Braves start popping up which ORKO. Also worth noting that a Dragonshield will ensure that Barst is at least 4RKO'd by every enemy on Chapter 16. Shiida doesn't have anything that can increase her usability like that.

In conclusion, yeah I can definitely see a tier gap.

[dondon151]

Raeping Cavs/Armors at 1 range vs Raeping Cavs/armors at chip and raeping archers at 1-range plus having better durability due to not getting raped by arrows and staves.

Since when did 2 base mag and E tomes qualify as rape? Wing Spear Shiida will be slaughtering cavs, armors, and horsemen for quite awhile before mage Shiida even gets to that level.

And "better durability" is laughable when "better" is defined as 16 HP/2 def base and 30 HP/0 def growth. A 19 atk archer in chapter 5 can OHKO her if she hasn't proc'd HP twice. Armors in that chapter have at least 22 atk. Cavs in the next chapter have 22 atk. Pirates in the chapter after that have around that much atk as well. Then chapter 10 comes along and the silvers pop out. 13/0 Shiida on average survives only the 21 atk thief, and she needs to be much higher than that to survive other enemies that have around 24 atk.

So yeah, Shiida wants to be PK for the higher HP/def growth and bases, at least until she stops being OHKO'd as mage.

[Dat Nick]

Since when did 2 base mag and E tomes qualify as rape?

There's a reason we keep Shiida on peg earlygame, you know.

Wing Spear Shiida will be slaughtering cavs, armors, and horsemen for quite awhile before mage Shiida even gets to that level.

so keep here there for those levels

then Mage Shiida gets to that level

And "better durability" is laughable when "better" is defined as 16 HP/2 def base and 30 HP/0 def growth.

The difference is going from being 2RKOd to 2RKOd and not getting instablicked by archers. Mage has better durability.

A 19 atk archer in chapter 5 can OHKO her if she hasn't proc'd HP twice.

For the trillionth time, Shiida stays on Peg earlygame.

[Progenitus]

I don't think I need to go into any more detail about Barts wtf destroying Caeda

What I'm seeing is that you neglected hit (Barst with steel axe has what, 85 hit with C axes? Caeda with Fire has over 100), and she's also avoiding player phase counters to help alleviate the durability gap.

By the time Barst is surviving more than 3 rounds, that's promotion time, and staves again help alleviate the durability gap.

You have a very strange definition of "shitstomp", my friend.

And again, are you going to continue to argue Barst vs Caeda when the actual original argument was Caeda vs Merric?

This is even before questioning the validity of your numbers. For example, Barst is 3RKO'd by horsemen in ch 8? No, my friend. he has 11 AS and they have 15-16 AS and 17-18 att. he's borderline 3HKO'd and doubled.

it appears to me that the only real time Barst is beating Caeda by a significant amount is in the very earlygame when Caeda first class changes and her spd is barely any better than Barst while losing att by a lot. As by chapter

Edited November 23, 2009 by Andrew W.K.

[Don Draper]

My first Smash debate, oh boy.

Barst's hit issues disappear almost instantly. He gets +5 Hit from C Axes, then +15 Hit from Bord/Cord/Ogma supports in Chapter 6. Then his weapon rank continues to increase, and its not as if enemies have incredibly high avoid in the first place (they don't have luck, Avoid is equal to their AS).

Staves destroying the durability gap? Er...no. Staves didn't save L'Archael from Low Tier in FE8, and Staves are even less relevant in FEDS when half your team has access to them.

So killing enemies in one less round, and surviving an extra 1-3 isn't a shitstomp after promotion? Sounds like it to me.

All I'm arguing is if a tier gap between Barst and Caeda is justified. And looking at Barst's much better performance throughout the entire game, it looks like there should be.

Ok. One error that barely changes anything. Barst is still performing much better then Caeda is.

It looks like Barst is doing significantly better after promotion as well, as the numbers show. I don't think you can dispute that staves is not outweighing much better offence/defense in this game.

[Dat Nick]

not really taking sides here but if we're talking C8 Barst's accuracy is definitly a problem because cavs are carrying steel swords which WTD him and negate any axe rank boosts. It is only one chapter, but I just wanted to point that out.

[dondon151]

so keep here there for those levels

then Mage Shiida gets to that level

See, here's the problem. PK Shiida gains neither magic nor tome rank. So if you keep Shiida as PK, mage Shiida will never "get to that level" because she needs to be mage Shiida in the first place.

For the trillionth time, Shiida stays on Peg earlygame.

That's not what IOS seems to be implying. Why don't you have a discussion with him instead?

[Don Draper]

11/0 Barst has +15 Avoid from supports, +10 from B Axes, 70 hit from Steel Axe, 9 hit from skill and 3 from luck. That totals to 107. He loses 10 to WTD. Then they have 7-8 avoid. We're looking at 89-90 hit, which is not problematic at all.

Oh right, WTD removes weapon rank bonuses. Still, its 79-80 Hit which isn't much of an issue.

[Dat Nick]

See, here's the problem. PK Shiida gains neither magic nor tome rank. So if you keep Shiida as PK, mage Shiida will never "get to that level" because she needs to be mage Shiida in the first place.

Yes, she does have to go through a brief period of suck no matter what. The returns from mage are justified for being worse in 1-2 chapters [she's pretty much good once she gets D rank] and you can even do these on a chapter where Wing Spear is totally useless like C6x. By then she doubles as mage anyway so Mage's suck is barely visible.

Still, its 79-80 Hit which isn't much of an issue.

It also docks another 10 hit and the cavs have AS [8 or 9 of it] so we're looking more at like 59-60 which is definitly an issue. Of course, it's only for this one enemy type, but still.

Edited November 23, 2009 by laws b122

[Don Draper]

Huh? I already deducted 10 from weapon rank loss, 10 from WTD and 7-8 from AS loss. He has 107-27(28) which is 79-80

[Progenitus]

First of all, the main argument isn't Barst vs Caeda. It's Caeda vs Merric. Why you keep harping on Caeda vs Barst, none of us know. If you are going to continue to argue Barst vs Caeda and say nothing about Caeda vs Merric, I'm assuming you're conceding the latter, which is really the only thing I was trying to argue for.

Although I love how you're twisting all my words and your numbers. "Staves destroying the durability gap"? wtf? No I didn't say that. I said it ALLEVIATED the gap. As in, made it not as bad for Caeda. And you still didn't address Caeda avoiding player phases counters more often, which ALLEVIATE the durability gap once more.

And no, Barst does not survive more than 3 extra rounds over Caeda, by your numbers anyway. At least that's not normal. He's generally surviving 1 extra round. The only time he's getting liek 5 rounded is against horsemen who can't double him.

And how does "half the team" have staves? When were we fielding 8 clerics? Even if we had, liek, 3-4 healers, staves is still a boon because staves don't recover all HP unlike other games. Unless you use recover, it takes 2-3 people to bring someone from near death to full HP.

EDIT: Anyway, even if you say that Barst should be a tier above Caeda (which I still fail to see), this still doesn't address Caeda vs Merric. If Caeda is better, and there should be a tier between Caeda and Barst, then perhaps Merric needs to drop, or maybe Barst has to go up a tier of his own (between SedGAR/Wolf and the others, anyway).

Edited November 23, 2009 by Andrew W.K.

[Dat Nick]

Huh? I already deducted 10 from weapon rank loss, 10 from WTD and 7-8 from AS loss. He has 107-27(28) which is 79-80

oh this is with his supports. Fair enough.

[Dat Nick]

I think he's proposing:

Skittles Tier:

ZaGARo

Wolf

Top:

Barst

Merric

Cord

Draug

Abel

Cain

High:

Caeda

Daros

Ogma

Hardin

Chainey

Maybe the cavs in high too. dunno

Edited November 23, 2009 by laws b122

[Don Draper]

First of all, the main argument isn't Barst vs Caeda. It's Caeda vs Merric. Why you keep harping on Caeda vs Barst, none of us know. If you are going to continue to argue Barst vs Caeda and say nothing about Caeda vs Merric, I'm assuming you're conceding the latter, which is really the only thing I was trying to argue for.

Although I love how you're twisting all my words and your numbers. "Staves destroying the durability gap"? wtf? No I didn't say that. I said it ALLEVIATED the gap. As in, made it not as bad for Caeda. And you still didn't address Caeda avoiding player phases counters more often, which ALLEVIATE the durability gap once more.

And no, Barst does not survive more than 3 extra rounds over Caeda, by your numbers anyway. At least that's not normal. He's generally surviving 1 extra round. The only time he's getting liek 5 rounded is against horsemen who can't double him.

And how does "half the team" have staves? When were we fielding 8 clerics? Even if we had, liek, 3-4 healers, staves is still a boon because staves don't recover all HP unlike other games. Unless you use recover, it takes 2-3 people to bring someone from near death to full HP.

EDIT: Anyway, even if you say that Barst should be a tier above Caeda (which I still fail to see), this still doesn't address Caeda vs Merric. If Caeda is better, and there should be a tier between Caeda and Barst, then perhaps Merric needs to drop, or maybe Barst has to go up a tier of his own (between SedGAR/Wolf and the others, anyway).

I started off arguing with CATS, who seemed to imply that Barts and Caeda were essentially equal. You agreed with part of this, and then we went from there. I agree with Caeda>Merric actually

The loss of player phase counters isn't a big deal when you take an extra round of damage. Here's the scenario:

Caeda is 2RKO'd, so she can attack player phase without getting countered, and take one hit on enemy phase

Barst is 3RKO'd, so he can attack player phase and get countered. He too can take one hit on enemy phase.

This is the best case scenario for Caeda. There are times when Caeda is ORKO'd, when Barst is 4RKO'd, when Barst kills the enemy without taking a counter (against archers, etc), times when Barst avoids the enemy's attack (He gets +30 avoid from supports), Barst's durability is much more flexible.

Half the team has access to staves, so having them midgame isn't really changing much.

I'm unsure of where Barst should be. He has great offence, great defence, and is one of the few characters in the game that can get reliable avoid. I'll have to continue my high tier analysis to see.

[Progenitus]

Okay, so you agree with Caeda > Merric. So now the question is, should Caeda rise, or Merric drop? Since you say there should be a tier gap between Barst and Caeda (which I disagree with, but whatever, if WJC wants to push it then I'll let him take that), then the solution is most likely to drop Merric.

However, if Merric > the guy currently below him (which is Cord), then perhaps it's a sign that Barst should instead rise to his own tier between SedGAR/Wolf and the others. For something like...

Metaknight

SedGAR

Wolf

Skittles

Barst

Top

Caeda

Merric

etc.

[Dat Nick]

I think he's proposing:

Skittles Tier:

ZaGARo

Wolf

Top:

Barst

Merric

Cord

Draug

Abel

Cain

High:

Caeda

Daros

Ogma

Hardin

Chainey

Maybe the cavs in high too. dunno

that's better imo

[CATS]

15/1 is what they would be in Chapter 11, not Chapter 14. Your levels are pretty far off in general. 15/6 was the estimated level for Chapter 16, not 15/5 in Chapter 18. Unpromoted characters get approximately the same amount of experience as promoted units in this game. I highly doubt Shiida is getting much of a level lead either. She starts with E Staves, and she's not really helping much by only using a Heal staff (which heals like...14-15 HP).

Doesn't really matter how much she's "helping" by using Heal when talking about how it helps her Exp gains. She gets a few points less Exp than other guys using Mend occasionally, or as I mentioned earlier, she can switch to Bishop if you care that much.

Take away one level for Shiida if you want, she still doubles everything ever, and she loses .25 Mag, ohnoes.

Barst not being able to double because of sandbagged levels or w/e is irrelevant aswell. That would just make his offense about even with Shiida rather than being worse. Oh look, Shiida has the same offense as the 3rd best unit. That was the point, that her offense is not in any way bad or even mediocre (specifically you said "Even after promotion, she's relying on Aura (which will last about 12 rounds) until she's stuck doing shit damage again" which is hilariously false), not that she's better than Barst overall. btw, he's not even close to doubling those Ch 18 Horsemen, he'd need 7 more levels over what I had him at just to average 22 Spd, so Shiida would still win offense even if you buffed their levels.

Also, WJC, axes don't get more att from higher weapon levels. Only hit.

Yeah, my bad again >_>

Comparing to Draug at first is not something to write home about...especially when looking at how he does in my comparisons in the early chapters.

How is comparing to the 6th best unit not something to write home about? I mean, Draug's pre-promotion game must be good otherwise he would not be as high as he is.