H5 Tier list topic

[Narga_Rocks]

Okay then, I'll just assume Zag and Wolf reclass to Sorcerer in C6. Them sucking less is obviously a cost to our team.

The cost of Zag/Wolf not taking sorceror is that they take classes that can be given to other people, they lose staff utility, and they stop hitting res.

While we're at it, Cain and Abel are not allowed to be anything except Archers before promotion, at which point we must reclass them to Sage.

The cost of Abel/Cain not being archer is lack of access to better 2-range weapons. The cost of them not being sage is the same as Zag/Wolf not being sorceror.

All costs are costs regardless of how small they are. If you paid $2 for a $100 lottery slip, the cost of that lottery slip was $2, the revenue was $100, and the profit was $98. Let's not confuse those 3.

I have to agree. I'm not sure it is always necessary to point out that everything has a cost, however small it is, though.

If I'm lying down on some kind of torture device (not strapped in) and there is a knife about to slice me open, the cost of moving is that I don't get to experience that sensation (also the energy it takes to make myself move). I'm not sure it is worth considering the cost when deciding whether or not to move.

Although, I suppose you were initially pointing out her initial performance as a Mage for the first little bit is worse than her performance as a PK. Even if only for a chapter or two. And that the player has to accept the cost of that performance if they want the later advantages of Mage/Sage Sheeda.

[Interceptor]

Yeah, I really prefer smaller teams in this game.

I'm also noticing that I seem to have one too many characters, and I'm probably going to drop Abel. They both have roughly average stats, but Cain is 2 points DEF-blessed and almost has C lances, so he's fine. Caeda is on Silver Lance duty in this man's army, anyway. I should have only gone with one of the cavs from the start. Oh well.

By the way, I'm interested in your comments on the characters after you're finished your playthrough Int, particularly on Draug (assuming he's a Hunter).

I'll oblige when I ever get around to finishing it. Draug is a Hunter. I realized that I needed some sort of bow-user after I had already fed Gordin/Castor to wolverines, so I nominated him for the job.

I'm attempting to keep some sort of parity between weapon types and classes. Not because it's efficient, but because I don't know what's coming.

[Don Draper]

Just going to repost my "Barst in his own tier" argument here from fegenesis:

If Barst goes the Fighter-->Hero route, and promotes around Level 15, he quickly becomes one of (if not only) units in the game that can balance Offence and Defence. For example, we all know that Cord is excellent offensively. Lets compare the two offensively:

15/1 Barst: 30 Atk (Silver Axe), 18 AS

15/1 Maji: 30 Atk (Silver Axe), 19 AS

Now, there are no enemies in Chapters 11 or 12 (when they would promote) that have 13 AS, so its a tie offensively. Barst is the same offensively to the best offensive unit in the game.

Now lets look at durability:

15/1 Barst: 36 HP, 12 Def

15/1 Maji: 32 HP, 10 Def

An enemy would need 30 Atk to 2RKO Barst, which doesn't occur until Chapter 18. Needless to say, non-Mages/Mamkutes will never 2RKO him.

However, an enemy needs 26 Atk to 2RKO Maji, which actually occurs in that very chapter (The Sniper), and occurs even more commonly in the next chapter with the Cavs, the Silver Lance Armor, the Sniper, and the General. Maji is noticeably less durable then Barst.

Then lets look a bit farther in (around Chapter 16).

15/6 Barst: 31 Atk (Silver Axe), 20 AS

15/6 Maji: 30 Atk (Silver Axe), 21 AS

The only enemy that Barst can't double are the Heroes. Its also worth noting that Maji's attack is preventing him from potentially one rounding the Paladin (if they have 43 HP). They're essentially equal offensively.

Now defensively is a different story.

15/6 Barst: 39 HP, 13 Def

15/6 Maji: 35 HP, 11 Def

I'm pretty sure there's no non-boss physical enemy in the game that has 33 attack, so Barst is at least 3RKO'd. Enemies that he can take 4 or more hits from include: Horsemen, Ridersbane Wyverns, and Most Cavs with Lances.

However, Maji is 2RKO'd by enemies with 29+ attack. Because he has WTD he is 2RKO'd by Heroes and Sword Cavs (and the boss). He isn't 4RKO'd by any enemies except for the Horsemen.

Barst is still doing much better defensively then Maji. However, you'll see when this makes a huge difference in a second:

15/11 Barst: 32 Atk (Silver Axe), 22 AS

15/11 Maji: 32 Atk (Silver Axe), 24 AS

Barst is still doubling every enemy in Chapter 20, and the next two chapters so Maji's AS makes little difference. Now look at defense:

15/11 Barst: 42 HP, 14 Def

15/11 Maji: 38 HP, 12 Def

Out come the Braves, and lets look at a Paladin Brave assault:

Barst is dealt 9x2 or 10x2 damage for a 3RKO. Maji is dealt 11x2 or 12x2 damage for a 2RKO.

Thats right. Barst can survive two Brave assaults, while Maji can only survive one. This is absolutely huge.

So putting everything together, Barst is on par offensively with Maji but completely destroys him defensively. He almost always is able to survive an extra round in H5 which is incredibly important in H5. This isn't even mentioning Barsts clearly superior pre-promotion performance (Where he's doing better both offensively and defensively). I'm not even getting into his ridiculous supported avoid. I already posted why I think Barst should be up a tier on Caeda (who should currently be right above Merric) here:

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=11699&view=findpost&p=694832

I just wanted to compare him to Maji too, to show a potential tier gap between him and the characters below him.

Edited November 24, 2009 by IOS

[Don Draper]

Man, I'm on a double posting spree (I'll try to cut down, sorry) but I just noticed this post:

and I also killed a few waves of Cavs in Ch. 7.

Hmm, this might be an issue in terms of EXP accuracy since it's possible to bypass most of the waves completely.

I can't see this making too much of a difference. They are only Level 3, so a Level 9 unit is only getting 17 experience a kill (9 experience a hit). They're usually 3RKO'd. So lets say you farm for three turns, producing twelve of them. Thats 204 total kill experience, and 216 hit experience. I we're using say...six combat units, thats 34 kill experience and 36 hit experience. Totals up to 70, which isn't even a level. Not to mention that Int used more then 6 combat units.

[Rodykitty]

Just as a heads up, I'll be going to Serenes Forest much less often, so I'd like most major discussion to be at FEG, if that's alright with everyone.

[Mekkah]

My plan...it is working...

[Don Draper]

I think that Barst in his own tier has been generally accepted by pretty much everyone over at fegenesis. Think the change is reasonable at this point?

[Rodykitty]

I suppose I should update this.

[Rodykitty]

I have no idea what happened to SevenDeadlySins so I'm taking the tier list back.

[Don Draper]

Top Tier is too big, and characters seem to be all over the place for the most part.

How about something more like this?

-Top Tier-

Sedgar

Wolf

Ogma

Cain

Abel

Cord

Xane

-High Tier-

Caeda

Hardin

Barst

Linda

Merric

Marth

Lena

-Mid Tier-

Tiki

Beck

Jake

Navarre

Julian

Catria

Palla

Maria

Wendell

Jeigan

Minerva

-Low Tier-

Roshea

Boah

Arran

Samson

Astram

Midea

Dolph

Tomas

Gordin

Draug

Bord

Bantu

Castor

Nagi

Macellan

Darros

Vyland

Lorenz

Rickard

Matthis

Ceasar

Radd

Roger

Jeorge

Est

Elice

Edited April 1, 2010 by IOS

[Rodykitty]

Why are you putting Caeda so high? She'll never do any damage unless it's a crit with her 20% Str growth and Slim Lance.

Radd should not be anything other than top tier, look at the rules, the arena does not have a turn penalty which allows him to level up easily, and will have the best stats on your team.

Hardin is like a much weaker version of Cain and Abel. 55% HP growth is horrible.

Gordon is also your best potential Sniper, and can do good chip damage with Parthia.

[Don Draper]

Caeada is top tier lol. Wing Spear pretty much lets her solo maps, thanks to her amazing speed and attack with Wing Spear. Plus she can always go mage for variety.

I don't know what you're talking about with Radd. Even with no turn penalty, he still turns out worse then Navarre (not counting Athena since you have to suck at the game to get her)

Hardin is pretty much RNG proof. He comes at Lvl 6, while everyone else comes at Lvl 1 AND you have to train them.

Gordon can't even get S Bows until probably Chapter 16, and Jeorge has more attack anyways.

Edited April 1, 2010 by IOS

[Rodykitty]

What is a scr00b? Leet speak died out whenever people stopped playing Quake.

And the Wing Spear is absolutely overkill. It is a huge waste of resources and doesn't do much more than a Steel Lance would. I can't fathom why anybody would buy or use such an overpriced weapon when you can just use cheaper alternatives.

Nevermind that Shiida can't solo anyway. Baaaad durability. She is a Pegasus Knight, gets one shotted by more than just bows.

And have you seen Radd's averages? He'll churn out more Str & Def, the best stats in the game.

And yeah, Hardin is RNG proof... Protected from ever getting HP, that's what RNG proof means to him.

And even if Gordon doesn't get S bows until then, he's still a great unit before that due to Steel Bow chip damage taking off about a third of enemy health (something valuable not many units can do), and 16 onward is when he shines the most.

[Rodykitty]

I just put Shiida in top tier because of the Mage class.

[Ardan]

I think this is a great list.

Edited April 1, 2010 by Ardan

[Rodykitty]

Neither Maric or Linda are as good as Mage Sheeda, so I don't really care.

[Ardan]

I agree - nothing RAPES like teh hax that is mage sheeda. I'll correct my post accordingly lol

[Colonel M]

I wish to request Xane to be rightfully tiered on this list. He is not Merlinus. And remember: what is better than one Zagaro? I'll let you fill in the blanks on that one. He should be directly below Zag/Wolf.

[Rodykitty]

Sedgar isn't even that good to begin with (takes too long to level up, and even with growths takes some time to catch up to characters), and you expect me to put an untierable unit on the tier list?

Xane will not be on the tier list, since all he does is cause arguments.

[Colonel M]

Sedgar isn't even that good to begin with (takes too long to level up, and even with growths takes some time to catch up to characters), and you expect me to put an untierable unit on the tier list?

Xane will not be on the tier list, since all he does is cause arguments.

You forgot, with my 101 Training Manual, you can level SedWolf with little effort. You forgot that General can wall the balls out of everything. Look at those puny DracoKnights cower in fear in C21 just because all they see is "tink tink tink". It's all about the lategame baby: fuck earlygame, everyone sucks there.

Also, Xane shall be on the tier list. Otherwise, I shall blackmark you as the next Tyrant of Serenes Forest.

[Rodykitty]

Gordon tinks and instant kills C21/22 Dracoknights. I don't see your point.

And Xane will not be on the tier list. Nobody likes tiering him, and neither do you.

[Colonel M]

Gordon tinks and instant kills C21/22 Dracoknights. I don't see your point.

ORLY? My 20/10 Gordin still took 10 damage per round from a DracoKnight. My 10 Zagaro took 0 damage. I don't see Gordon's point. Zagaro also doesn't cost a Master Seal, good sir, so he adds either 2500 or another promoted person to our ranks. Indirect benefit anyone?

And Xane will not be on the tier list. Nobody likes tiering him, and neither do you.

Are you kidding me I love to tier him? Even though I prefer pounding my fist in a bunch of needles to find a piece of hay.

Edited April 1, 2010 by Tyranel M

[Rodykitty]

Gordon doesn't cost a Master Seal. He comes free in Chapter 1.

[Colonel M]

Gordon doesn't cost a Master Seal. He comes free in Chapter 1.

DONDON AGREES WITH ME THAT ZAGARO IS A TIER OVER GORDON!

Proof with Log:

<&Colonel_M> You agree that Zagaro > Gordon right?

<@dondon> Yeah

<&Colonel_M> But what about 2 tiers?

<@dondon> No, but a tier definitely. I also think that Gordon is the worst character in the game.

You will see the error of your ways soon, tyrant.

EDIT: WTF now we're banning Xane? This list is bullshit.

Edited April 1, 2010 by Colonel M

[Mekkah]

Why is Wendel in Mid? His growths suck.