H5 Tier list topic

[Rodykitty]

Didn't notice how similar he was to Navarre, outside of HP and obvious speed....But Navarre becomes similar over the levels up to 20-20, Julian just to 30...Julian needs no master seal either just to be similar.

My response:

But looking at their averages again, I don't know what I was thinking keeping Julian > Navarre,

[grandjackal]

My response:

Keeping Julian over Navarre? You want to change it? He ends up the same (really, who's gonna quad-shot Julian? He's only getting doubled by like...Medius. Navarre sure as hell isn't fighting him either. He doesn't need a master seal to end up near the same. All Navarre has on Julian is HP.

Now thinking about it, Navarre can keep doubling....hmmm...I guess you can switch 'em. But man, didn't notice how close they are...

[Rodykitty]

All Navarre has on Julian is HP.

Significant durability lead is significant. Enough to put Navarre above Julian, especially because on this mode, enemies can double you even if they don't have enough AS to, so extra HP is definitely a must. Edited March 6, 2009 by Chainey

[grandjackal]

Significant durability lead is significant. Enough to put Navarre above Julian, especially because on this mode, enemies can double you even if they don't have enough AS to, so extra HP is definitely a must.

Navarre also being able to double consistently makes him the best user of brave weapons, also putting his offense above the likes of those that...well...can't.. Like Julian. Julian can avoid being doubled, but I'd think later he can't quite double as often as he'd like.

I mean, 30 speed is a free pass to double every goddamn thing that runs into him.

[Rodykitty]

Their offense is similar. Both have high speed, and similar strength, but Navarre does have the HP lead.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I find all this talk of how many keys you can get vague so...

Obtainable...

Door keys (each have 1 use, opens only doors like the name implies):

C

5 Enemy Knight

7 Thief

9 Boss

17 Enemy Thief

23 Enemy Thief

25 Enemy Bishop

Master Keys (each have 5, opens anything)

C

6 Enemy Cavalier

6 Boss

From shops (vendor)...

Chapter 8: Door Key

Chapter 10: Door Key, Bridge Key

Chapter 11: Door Key

Chapter 14: Door key

Chapter 16: Door Key

Final Chapter: Door Key

Door key is 500G each and Bridge Key is 900G

Things to open...

Chapter 4: Rickard's door and that 1 Chest you'll absolutely reach before the thieves do.

Chapter 9: 2 Doors, 3 Chests. A thief is way likely to open one of the doors and you could let him pick up the treasure and kill him (but that bit's risky)

Chapter 10: 2 Treasure chests, 1 will be opened by the thief and then there's 2 doors, 1 to recruit Maria and the exit near the Hero.

Chapter 12: 5 Treasure chests, 1 door (that has to be opened for the chests) and 2 unnecessary doors (the cell of Midia and company and the door next to the Sniper near the Bishop boss).

Chapter 14: 2 Doors and 2 chests. 1 Door is optional and the other, you can let an enemy thief open it as well as a chest. 1 Bridge

Chapter 16: Xane's cell has 2 doors.

Chapter 17: 7 Chests, 2 will be opened by thieves. 1 Door, leads to the boss.

Chapter 17x: 5 Chests, 5 Doors. 4 doors are required to get the chests, the other one just has 1 Manakete in it as trap.

Chapter 19: 9 Chests. Difficult to tell how many doors to open but only 4 are necessary and there's a total of 9 or 10 doors. A thief could probably loot one of the chests.

Chapter 20: 1 Bridge.

Chapter 20x: 6 Chests.

Chapter 23: 1 Door, 2 chests. You could let the thieves get to those but that'll take a few turns and you also have to deal with some other incoming enemies.

Chapter 24: 1 Chest

Chapter 24x: 2 Doors, 2 Chest.

Chapter 25: 6 Doors. They randomly open and close.

Seems like you get enough door keys. Still, having Julian around means you save some time gathering the treasure but there's no tactics ranking so that'll only matter to some.

EDIT: Whoops, just remembered two bridges.

Edited March 6, 2009 by Levin

[Tino]

So... my entire argument...

h4x:

Jagen

Shiida

Riff

Ogma

High:

Abel

Barst

Cain

Mid:

Castor

Marth

Daros

Bord

Cord

Low:

Gordin

Draug

Obviously, Jeigan is the best unit. I can't argue about that.

Then, for Riff vs. Sheeda...

1/0 Riff: heals 9 HP, 6 AS ,, 16 HP, 3 Def, 7 Avo

2/0 Sheeda: 12 Atk, 13 AS ,, 16 HP, 7 Def, 18 Avo (Wing Spear)

2/0 Sheeda: 11 Atk, 10 AS ,, 16 HP, 7 Def, 15 Avo (Javelin)

Riff is getting one-rounded by everything but the Cavaliers, but in return he comes with an invaluable ability, namely the ability to heal. At this point, he's the only one who can heal other units, even though it's only 9 HP per heal. Sheeda takes 11-14 damage (dependent on whether the Pirates have A axes or not), so two attacks kill her very easily as well, and there are also those nasty Hunters who one-round her with ease. And then her offense is pretty crappy as well. She can't really use her Wing Spear much because she'll eat such a strong counter, and with a Javelin she isn't doubling and therefore dealing pretty pitiful damage (6-7 against Pirates, 4 (wtf?) against Cavaliers, and she won't be attacking Hunters due to the critical counter that she'll eat). So overall, I think I value Riff's healing more than Sheeda's fighting.

Then there's also Oguma, who is pretty awesome.

4/0 Oguma: 11 Atk, 12 AS ,, 22 HP, 6 Def, 13 Avo (Iron Sword)

4/0 Oguma: 14 Atk, 10 AS ,, 22 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Steel Sword)

2/0 Sheeda: 12 Atk, 13 AS ,, 16 HP, 7 Def, 18 Avo (Wing Spear)

2/0 Sheeda: 11 Atk, 10 AS ,, 16 HP, 7 Def, 15 Avo (Javelin)

Oguma is deals more damage if neither double, Sheeda deals -slightly- more damage if both double, and they'll very rarely both double, because Sheeda won't be using her Wing Spear much due to her durability (and Iron Lance makes her damage output incredibly fail (5-6 damage against Pirates, 3 damage against Cavaliers, 7 damage against Hunters, and epic wtf at her damage against Cavaliers, by the way). So she'll often be using her Javelin, with which she is dealing one more damage than she would with an Iron Lance, which also means that she won't be attacking Hunters anymore. Also, Oguma is a bit more durable. He has a slightly higher chance to dodge Pirate attacks, gets three-rounded instead of one-rounded by Hunters, and fares pretty equal against Cavaliers (though, Oguma can take a Cavalier and Hunter hit, which is pretty win at the moment). Overall, I'd say Oguma is better than Sheeda, even though he lacks a 2 range option.

Then for Oguma vs. Riff, I think Oguma is a tiny bit better than Riff, because he actually has a pretty good durability lead and actually does have pretty good offense (unlike Sheeda).

Abel might also be better than Sheeda.

2/0 Abel: 11 Atk, 8 AS ,, 21 HP, 7 Def, 9 Avo (Iron Sword)

2/0 Abel: 13 Atk, 7 AS ,, 21 HP, 7 Def, 8 Avo (Javelin)

2/0 Sheeda: 12 Atk, 13 AS ,, 16 HP, 7 Def, 18 Avo (Wing Spear)

2/0 Sheeda: 11 Atk, 10 AS ,, 16 HP, 7 Def, 15 Avo (Javelin)

Better durability for sure. He has a 20% chance to get four-rounded by Hunters, and though that admittedly is quite a tiny chance, that chance does exist and makes him a pretty valuable unit against Hunters, with their annoying 2 range and good AS (though Abel doesn't get doubled if the Hunter has 10 AS, or if the Hunter has 11 AS and Abel uses an Iron Sword/Lance).Then Abel also has a 20% chance to get three-rounded by Cavaliers. Overall, Abel's durability is a lot better than Sheeda's, just as with Oguma vs. Sheeda. And then Abel's offense is clearly better because he can put it to use more often, and because he has a higher damage output overall.

Then I'd say Oguma is better than Abel due to doubling and practically equal durability, so there needs to be no switching between them, I'd say.

3/0 Barts: 17 Atk, 9 AS ,, 24 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Iron Axe)

3/0 Barts: 18 Atk, 9 AS ,, 24 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Hand Axe)

3/0 Barts: 20 Atk, 9 AS ,, 24 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Steel Axe)

2/0 Sheeda: 12 Atk, 13 AS ,, 16 HP, 7 Def, 18 Avo (Wing Spear)

2/0 Sheeda: 11 Atk, 10 AS ,, 16 HP, 7 Def, 15 Avo (Javelin)

Barts, with Steel, deals 16 damage to a pirate in one single blow. Sheeda, when she doubles with her Wing Spear, deals 14-16 damage, and then she likely won't even be using the Wing Spear against them. Offensively, Sheeda is a massive failure compared to Barts. Perhaps he has some trouble hitting with the Hand Axe, but then again, Sheeda suffers from WTD most of the time, isn't going to be used against Hunters, and takes heavy damage from Cavaliers (so either she takes attacks, takes huge damage, kills, and gets killed the next enemy phase, or she uses a Javelin, deals pitiful damage, and doesn't die. Fail anyway. Barts on the other hand, doesn't fail as much. In fact, he's doing incredibly well here, two-rounding Pirates and Hunters, and leaving Cavaliers with 4 HP after two rounds, allowing anyone to get an easy kill. I don't know how Sheeda is ever beating that.

Barts vs. Abel?

2/0 Abel: 11 Atk, 8 AS ,, 21 HP, 7 Def, 9 Avo (Iron Sword)

2/0 Abel: 13 Atk, 7 AS ,, 21 HP, 7 Def, 8 Avo (Javelin)

3/0 Barts: 17 Atk, 9 AS ,, 24 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Iron Axe)

3/0 Barts: 18 Atk, 9 AS ,, 24 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Hand Axe)

3/0 Barts: 20 Atk, 9 AS ,, 24 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Steel Axe)

Easy victory for Barts, I'd say. Clearly superior offensive parameters, and practically equal defensive parameters. Cavaliers two-round both of them, Hunters three-round both of them, and Pirates two-round both of them. Both can survive a Cavalier and Hunter hit. Barts wins.

I'm giving Barts the victory in Barts vs. Riff as well. Granted, Riff's healing is invaluable, but I say the same of Barts's huge-ass offense. His durability is also pretty decent, while Riff usually gets one-rounded.

Barts vs. Oguma is probably very interesting.

4/0 Oguma: 11 Atk, 12 AS ,, 22 HP, 6 Def, 13 Avo (Iron Sword)

4/0 Oguma: 14 Atk, 10 AS ,, 22 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Steel Sword)

3/0 Barts: 17 Atk, 9 AS ,, 24 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Iron Axe)

3/0 Barts: 18 Atk, 9 AS ,, 24 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Hand Axe)

3/0 Barts: 20 Atk, 9 AS ,, 24 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Steel Axe)

So basically, it's lots of Atk vs. doubling some of the pirates. If Oguma doubles, he's two-rounding, just like Barts is. Plus, Barts has a 2 range option, which is something Oguma lacks. So I'm going to say that Barts is better than Oguma as well. Then, for epic lolz, I'm going to compare him to Jeigan as well.

3/0 Barts: 17 Atk, 9 AS ,, 24 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Iron Axe)

3/0 Barts: 18 Atk, 9 AS ,, 24 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Hand Axe)

3/0 Barts: 20 Atk, 9 AS ,, 24 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Steel Axe)

?/1 Jeigan: 20 Atk, 8 AS ,, 22 HP, 9 Def, 8 Avo (Silver Lance)

?/1 Jeigan: 14 Atk, 8 AS ,, 22 HP, 9 Def, 8 Avo (Javelin)

Barts is actually pretty damn close. They deal equal damage overall (though Jeigan deals one less damage if the Pirates have A axes). Pirates two-round Jeigan if they have A axes no matter what, and two-round him if they have 20 Atk. Barts gets two-rounded as well. Hunters four-round Jeigan and three-round Barts. Cavaliers two-round Barts and three-round Jeigan. Now, I'm not trying to prove Barts superior to Jeigan, but I just want to show how fucking h4x he is in this chapter. I feel you've massively underrated him.

Marth vs. Kashim

2/0 Marth: 11 Atk, 8 AS ,, 19 HP, 7 Def, 12 Avo (Iron Sword)

2/0 Marth: 11 Atk, 8 AS ,, 19 HP, 7 Def, 12 Avo (Rapier)

3/0 Kashim: 12 Atk, 6 AS ,, 21 HP, 4 Def, 7 Avo (Iron Bow)

3/0 Kashim: 15 Atk, 5 AS ,, 21 HP, 4 Def, 7 Avo (Steel Bow)

First of all, Kashim joins halfway through the chapter, when the majority of the enemies is already taken care of, seriously reducing his contribution to the team. Perhaps there is still a Hunter left or something, or perhaps a Pirate or Cavalier as well, and he really suck against them. Everything on the map two-rounds him. Or in fact, Hunters one-round him if they have 15 Atk. Marth, though he lacks 2 range, has his Rapier for pretty strong damage against Cavaliers, despite his low Atk, and can actually survive somewhat (though admittedly, his durability is still pretty fail). So yeah, I can see Marth above Kashim, since Kashim already joins late, and sucks hard as soon as he joins.

Daros vs. Saji

3/0 Daros: 13 Atk, 7 AS ,, 21 HP, 5 Def, 8 Avo (Iron Axe)

3/0 Daros: 14 Atk, 5 AS ,, 21 HP, 5 Def, 6 Avo (Hand Axe)

3/0 Daros: 16 Atk, 3 AS ,, 21 HP, 5 Def, 4 Avo (Steel Axe)

2/0 Saji: 15 Atk, 7 AS ,, 20 HP, 5 Def, 7 Avo (Iron Axe)

2/0 Saji: 16 Atk, 7 AS ,, 20 HP, 5 Def, 7 Avo (Hand Axe)

2/0 Saji: 18 Atk, 5 AS ,, 20 HP, 5 Def, 5 Avo (Steel Axe)

So Saji deals more damage, gets doubled less often, joins earlier, and gets killed in the same amount of rounds as Daros if neither of them gets doubled. Excuse me, but why is Daros above Saji?

For Kashim vs. Saji.

3/0 Kashim: 12 Atk, 6 AS ,, 21 HP, 4 Def, 7 Avo (Iron Bow)

3/0 Kashim: 15 Atk, 5 AS ,, 21 HP, 4 Def, 7 Avo (Steel Bow)

2/0 Saji: 15 Atk, 7 AS ,, 20 HP, 5 Def, 7 Avo (Iron Axe)

2/0 Saji: 16 Atk, 7 AS ,, 20 HP, 5 Def, 7 Avo (Hand Axe)

2/0 Saji: 18 Atk, 5 AS ,, 20 HP, 5 Def, 5 Avo (Steel Axe)

I don't think this needs any elaboration. Saji is clearly superior. Deals more damage, gets doubled less often, joins earlier, and has a bit more Def (though that one point only matters when the Hunter has 14 Atk).

Saji might even be better than Marth.

2/0 Marth: 11 Atk, 8 AS ,, 19 HP, 7 Def, 12 Avo (Iron Sword)

2/0 Marth: 11 Atk, 8 AS ,, 19 HP, 7 Def, 12 Avo (Rapier)

2/0 Saji: 15 Atk, 7 AS ,, 20 HP, 5 Def, 7 Avo (Iron Axe)

2/0 Saji: 16 Atk, 7 AS ,, 20 HP, 5 Def, 7 Avo (Hand Axe)

2/0 Saji: 18 Atk, 5 AS ,, 20 HP, 5 Def, 5 Avo (Steel Axe)

"Might" was an understatement, apparantly, because Saji simply -is- better than Marth. Marth lacks 2 range, deals pretty pitiful damage unless it's against Cavaliers (from which he still eats a strong counter, allowing another enemy to kill him) and doesn't double more than Saji. All he has over Saji is that Hunters can never double him, but the chance that a Hunter will double AND one-round Saji is pretty slim, since that requires the Hunter to have 15 Atk and 11 AS, which is less likely to happen than 14 Atk/11 AS or 15 Atk/10 AS, as far as I know. So Saji > Marth.

2/0 Saji: 15 Atk, 7 AS ,, 20 HP, 5 Def, 7 Avo (Iron Axe)

2/0 Saji: 16 Atk, 7 AS ,, 20 HP, 5 Def, 7 Avo (Hand Axe)

2/0 Saji: 18 Atk, 5 AS ,, 20 HP, 5 Def, 5 Avo (Steel Axe)

2/0 Kain: 12 Atk, 7 AS ,, 21 HP, 7 Def, 8 Avo (Iron Sword)

2/0 Kain: 13 Atk, 7 AS ,, 21 HP, 7 Def, 8 Avo (Iron Lance)

Okay, this isn't close at all. Kain must be close to the enemy if he wants to attack, which means he'll often eat a counter, making his superior durability... not superior anymore, and then Saji also has a lot more Atk and 2 range, making him a lot more useful than Kain. Hmm, I'd say Kain doesn't even belong in High Tier.

Maji vs. Daros is a pretty tough call.

3/0 Daros: 13 Atk, 7 AS ,, 21 HP, 5 Def, 8 Avo (Iron Axe)

3/0 Daros: 14 Atk, 5 AS ,, 21 HP, 5 Def, 6 Avo (Hand Axe)

3/0 Daros: 16 Atk, 3 AS ,, 21 HP, 5 Def, 4 Avo (Steel Axe)

2/0 Maji: 14 Atk, 9 AS ,, 20 HP, 5 Def, 11 Avo (Iron Axe)

Actually, I think this is fairly debatable. Where Daros has 2 range with a Hand Axe, Maji never gets doubled, while Daros can be double by Hunters if he uses Iron, and gets doubled by everything but a few Pirates once he switches to Hand Axe. I actually think Maji is better than Daros.

Maji vs. Kashim?

2/0 Maji: 14 Atk, 9 AS ,, 20 HP, 5 Def, 11 Avo (Iron Axe)

3/0 Kashim: 12 Atk, 6 AS ,, 21 HP, 4 Def, 7 Avo (Iron Bow)

3/0 Kashim: 15 Atk, 5 AS ,, 21 HP, 4 Def, 7 Avo (Steel Bow)

It's basically crap durability and 2 range vs. slightly better durability thanks to not getting doubled and not joining uber late. I'm actually giving Maji the win.

Then I also don't really know why Marth is above Maji.

2/0 Marth: 11 Atk, 8 AS ,, 19 HP, 7 Def, 12 Avo (Iron Sword)

2/0 Marth: 11 Atk, 8 AS ,, 19 HP, 7 Def, 12 Avo (Rapier)

2/0 Maji: 14 Atk, 9 AS ,, 20 HP, 5 Def, 11 Avo (Iron Axe)

So Maji deals more damage per hit for sure. Marth is only better on raw damage output against Cavaliers, against which he fails massively due to his lollable durability against them. Marth is better against the Hunters if they have 15 Atk, I suppose. Aside of that, Saji is better all the time due to his superior offense.

2/0 Gordon: 10 Atk, 4 AS ,, 19 HP, 6 Def, 6 Avo (Iron Bow)

2/0 Gordon: 13 Atk, 1 AS ,, 19 HP, 6 Def, 3 Avo (Steel Bow)

2/0 Doga: 13 Atk, 3 AS ,, 21 HP, 11 Def, 3 Avo (Iron Lance)

2/0 Doga: 14 Atk, 3 AS ,, 21 HP, 11 Def, 3 Avo (Javelin)

So both get doubled by everything on the map. Hunters deal 6-8 damage to Doga, while they deals 16-18 damage to Gordon (which means that he has a 40% chance of getting one-rounded if the Hunter has 15 Atk). Cavaliers deal 16 damage to Doga, while they one-round Gordon. Pirates deal 18-20 damage to Doga, while they one-round Gordon. And then Doga has better damage output. Why was Gordon above Doga again?

[Rodykitty]

I already suggested lowering Abel & Kain (well, in Ch. 3 specifically) in a previous post due to the fact they need to be leveled up to reach top tier status, but that was easily missed (especially since Sweet Tooth wasn't online to see it).

Edited March 6, 2009 by Chainey

[Mekkah]

Marth is working towards getting to the throne or unlocking doors for other units

The Fire Emblem only opens chests, not doors. Which is absolute ass.

[Rodykitty]

The Fire Emblem only opens chests, not doors. Which is absolute ass.

Oh crap, that's a typo. I meant to say that Julian is opening doors for others. I think I messed up while constructing that sentence.

My argument doesn't hold much weight anyway, since worthless units can do the same with keys (Generics, for example). Julian's position is mostly based on stats.

[Dat Nick]

for the axe users having 1-2 range, you're forgetting that their hit with handaxe is ass at this point [some being more ass than others]. Maybe less so on the cavs, but for now, still pretty awful. Marth's rapier is better at being anti-cav, anyway, since Gordin with Steel Bow+Marth Rapier= dead cav.

btw, getting two rounded isn't much better than getting one-rounded, especially not when Gordin can still deal some nice chip damage to kill stuff. What can Doga do? Get raped. Which isn't nearly as useful as [actually reliable] 2 range.

also

He has a 20% chance to get four-rounded by Hunters, and though that admittedly is quite a tiny chance, that chance does exist and makes him a pretty valuable unit against Hunters, with their annoying 2 range and good AS (though Abel doesn't get doubled if the Hunter has 10 AS, or if the Hunter has 11 AS and Abel uses an Iron Sword/Lance).Then Abel also has a 20% chance to get three-rounded by Cavaliers.

...there's...what, 2 hunters and 2 cavs apeice on the map? Is that all Abel wins against? That's not nearly enough to>Shiida, especially since Wing Spear kind of cancels out her crap durability versus the cavs since she pwns them in return, not to mention doubling the pirates and having far better damage [No idea how you figured Abel was winning damage output]

Edited March 6, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[Tino]

for the axe users having 1-2 range, you're forgetting that their hit with handaxe is ass at this point [some being more ass than others]. Maybe less so on the cavs, but for now, still pretty awful. Marth's rapier is better at being anti-cav, anyway, since Gordin with Steel Bow+Marth Rapier= dead cav.

And you're forgetting that it also means not eating a counter. And with the 2 RN system, they'll have about a ~65% or higher chance to still hit the enemy (if they have WTN (neutral)). Your Javelin dudes actually face WTD against Pirates, so they might have even a smaller chance to hit than the axe users.

Therefore, I don't really see why Hand Axe usage at this point is "pretty awful".

btw, getting two rounded isn't much better than getting one-rounded, especially not when Gordin can still deal some nice chip damage to kill stuff. What can Doga do? Get raped. Which isn't nearly as useful as [actually reliable] 2 range.

Doga can do the same with Javelins. Admittedly, it's a lot less reliable, but still, he can do it. Also, Doga is far less of an enemy magnet, so Gordon is dying tons faster than Doga is, since enemies prefer attacking him over any other unit. And after that, so if Gordon isn't there (this is assuming Gordon is killed or isn't in range of any enemies), then enemies will likely target the strongest unit(s), and Doga might be one of them due to his high Def (note that I mean "strong" as if you were the enemy, not "strong" as in "Doga is one of the best Chapter 2 units"). Still though, it comes down to this: Doga is quite a bit more durable than Gordon. Now, if you would say that getting three-rounded isn't much better than two-rounded, then you might have some point, but getting one-rounded simply means getting raped instantly, while getting two-round (though it's only barely in this case) means getting raped a good deal slower.

...there's...what, 2 hunters and 2 cavs apeice on the map? Is that all Abel wins against? That's not nearly enough to>Shiida, especially since Wing Spear kind of cancels out her crap durability versus the cavs since she pwns them in return, not to mention doubling the pirates and having far better damage [No idea how you figured Abel was winning damage output]

No, it doesn't. Sheeda doesn't deal enough damage to OHKO, so she'll eat a strong counter, which means anything else will kill her. Also, it's not unlikely that those Hunters are near the Cavaliers, which makes things even worse for her.

And Sheeda, as I mentioned in that post of mine, doesn't really want to attack from close range, especially not against those strong Pirates which can walk over water, which means they'll most likely will be able to reach her if she has attacked with her Wing Spear, since she gets two-rounded easily.

Oh yeah, and Abel has more Atk, and Sheeda doesn't double with Javelin, so he deals more damage.

[Dat Nick]

And you're forgetting that it also means not eating a counter

okay.

their hit still sucks

And with the 2 RN system, they'll have about a ~65% or higher chance to still hit the enemy (if they have WTN (neutral))

I'd rather not risk that when I can have hit in the 80s with roughly the same damage

Your Javelin dudes actually face WTD against Pirates, so they might have even a smaller chance to hit than the axe users.

...and who's saying javelins are good in this timeframe? Hit matters. A lot. "not eating a counter" doesn't justify unreliable numbers. Cause if you miss and can't finish the guy off next turn, guess what, you're going to eat a counter anyway.

Doga can do the same with Javelins.

...except his hit is way worse, and he doesn't even deal any more damage

in fact, due to WTA, I think Gordin wins damage, too?

Also, Doga is far less of an enemy magnet

..You mind telling me why you keep rehashing this phase over and over? I have seen nothing to suggest that enemies target what won't counter over what can. In fact, I've seen the game do things that lead me to believe the opposite.

Still though, it comes down to this: Doga is quite a bit more durable than Gordon. Now, if you would say that getting three-rounded isn't much better than two-rounded, then you might have some point, but getting one-rounded simply means getting raped instantly, while getting two-round (though it's only barely in this case) means getting raped a good deal slower.

...what

Why? One hit is one hit. It's the same gap as 899 hits before dying and 900 hits before dying. You can't assume Riff always has nothing better to do than heal one specific target. Other people are getting hit. And Riff is only one healer. So he has a lot to do.

No, it doesn't. Sheeda doesn't deal enough damage to OHKO, so she'll eat a strong counter, which means anything else will kill her.

There's still only two cavs on the map. It's really not that hard to have Shiida attack them to OHK after Gordin and maybe one of the axe guys have softened them.

And Sheeda, as I mentioned in that post of mine, doesn't really want to attack from close range,

oh, no

I'd much rather she miss with a javelin and get gang raped on the enemy phase

Oh yeah, and Abel has more Atk, and Sheeda doesn't double with Javelin, so he deals more damage.

yes

because Shiida would rather toss a javelin at something over what she could just kill with a wing spear, or help weaken.

[riariadne]

oh, no

I'd much rather she miss with a javelin and get gang raped on the enemy phase

----------

yes

because Shiida would rather toss a javelin at something over what she could just kill with a wing spear, or help weaken.

Nice use of sarcasm there.

Also doesn't almost everyone die in like 2 hits on h5 mode anyways?

Edited March 6, 2009 by Reinfleche

[Tino]

I'd rather not risk that when I can have hit in the 80s with roughly the same damage

And take a strong counter as a result? I know I'd take a fairly reliable chance to hit and take no damage in return over having 10-15% more hit and taking a strong counter in return.

...and who's saying javelins are good in this timeframe? Hit matters. A lot. "not eating a counter" doesn't justify unreliable numbers. Cause if you miss and can't finish the guy off next turn, guess what, you're going to eat a counter anyway.

I was wrong in my assumption. Javelin users have around the same Hit against the Pirates as Hand Axe users, have higher Hit against Hunters, and then have equal Hit against Cavaliers again. Assuming 60-65 displayed Hit against Pirates, that becomes a 68-76% true chance to hit.

What's this talk about low, unreliable Hit again? It's definitely not uber low, and though not the most reliable, it's far from unreliable.

Now then, how is taking no damage while having fairly reliable Hit possibly worse than having a more reliable chance to hit and eat a strong counter?

To prove my point, Hit against Pirates with Javelin/Hand Axe:

Abel: 61 displayed, ~70% true

Jeigan: 62 displayed, ~72% true

Doga: 55 displayed, ~60% true

Sheeda: 64 displayed, ~74% true

Barts: 60 displayed, ~68% true

Saji: 56 displayed, ~62% true

Daros: 55 displayed, ~60% true

So seriously, the only ones who might have some real trouble hitting are Doga, Saji, and Daros, and even they have at a pretty fair 60% chance to hit, which again, even though not the most reliable, is far from completely unreliable, and especially when we look at the other Javelin/Hand Axe users, I think it's safe to conclude that their Hit with ranged weapons isn't as bad as you claim it to be.

And, don't forget, this is their Hit against Pirates. Their displayed hit increases by 10 if they attack a Cavalier or Hunter (Abel, Jeigan, Doga, and Sheeda) or if they attack a Cavalier (Barts, Saji, Daros), so their Hit can only rise.

...except his hit is way worse, and he doesn't even deal any more damage

in fact, due to WTA, I think Gordin wins damage, too?

Iron Lance Doga deals more damage than Iron Bow Gordon, and Javelin Doga deals the same amount of damage as Steel Bow Gordon. But admittedly, Gordon does have more reliable Hit.

Gordon: 95/85 Hit

Doga: 93/73 Hit (83/63 against Pirates)

Okay, I must admit, Doga is offensively inferior to Gordon, since they usually deal equal damage, and Gordon has more reliable Hit, so I'll give that point to Gordon.

..You mind telling me why you keep rehashing this phase over and over? I have seen nothing to suggest that enemies target what won't counter over what can. In fact, I've seen the game do things that lead me to believe the opposite.

Similarly, I have seen enemies target those who don't counter more often than those who do counter, unless the unit who can counter is going to die if the enemy's attack connects. But I've also seen the things you saw. Basically, the AI is sort of unpredictable, I suppose, which means anything can happen, which basically means that everything has a 50% chance to happen...

However, I personally have seen enemies go for not taking the counter more often than they went for taking the counter, so I can conclude that Gordon is more of an enemy magnet than Doga is.

But you know, our experiences aren't debatable. You've seen what you saw, and so did I. So then it's safe to assume what's the most logical, and the most logical is that enemies attack what doesn't counter, and especially if they can one-round that what doesn't counter, which they can if "that what doesn't counter" is utilizing his Steel Bow.

Why? One hit is one hit. It's the same gap as 899 hits before dying and 900 hits before dying. You can't assume Riff always has nothing better to do than heal one specific target. Other people are getting hit. And Riff is only one healer. So he has a lot to do.

It's the same absolute gap, yes, but it's a totally different relative gap. Gordon gets killed whenever something attacks him. Doga, on the other hand, can survive at least one hit. When you're talking about 899 and 900 hits, you're talking about two units who basically aren't going to die anyway, and because they aren't, the relative gap is basically zero. The relative gap between one hit and two hits, however, is relatively a lot bigger.

Get what I'm trying to say?

There's still only two cavs on the map. It's really not that hard to have Shiida attack them to OHK after Gordin and maybe one of the axe guys have softened them.

...

And those Pirates that deal huge damage to her? And those Hunters that one-round her? Those all suddenly are out of the picture? Even if she does manage to kill a Cavalier without taking a counter, there is still a good amount of enemies that pose a huge threat to her, and her flexibility doesn't help her much at the moment, either, due to the Pirates being able to walk over water, Hunters having 2 range, and Cavaliers being very flexible themselves.

I'd much rather she miss with a javelin and get gang raped on the enemy phase

Basically, that's what I said, except that she has pretty reliable Hit against whatever she's attacking with a Javelin. She gets fucked over when she uses her Wing Spear, so she wants to use a Javelin.

because Shiida would rather toss a javelin at something over what she could just kill with a wing spear, or help weaken.

If she can kill with a Wing Spear hit, then fine, let her use that Wing Spear. However, more often than not, your units, including Sheeda, are weaking units, which means she's more often than not better off using her Javelin. If she doesn't kill the enemy with her Wing Spear, she doesn't use it, or she gets fucked over and dies a horrible death.

[dondon151]

...and who's saying javelins are good in this timeframe? Hit matters. A lot. "not eating a counter" doesn't justify unreliable numbers. Cause if you miss and can't finish the guy off next turn, guess what, you're going to eat a counter anyway.

Having to take a counter during player phase either opens a significant risk of dying on enemy phase (with every unit being 2HKO'd) or a longer period of time being stagnant, waiting for a heal from already overtaxed healers.

[Rodykitty]

Having to take a counter during player phase either opens a significant risk of dying on enemy phase (with every unit being 2HKO'd) or a longer period of time being stagnant, waiting for a heal from already overtaxed healers.

To work around this for melee weapons, we usually have units attack on the enemy phase rather than player phase so that they won't chew more than they can swallow.

[Tino]

To work around this for melee weapons, we usually have units attack on the enemy phase rather than player phase so that they won't chew more than they can swallow.

Why would we reduce efficiency by using 1 range weapons when Javelins and Hand Axes are useful on both the enemy and player phases? Logically, it'll kill enemies faster, and therefore help you beat the chapter faster, and faster chapter completion is the standard of this list, right?

Is there even a standard?

[Rodykitty]

Why would we reduce efficiency by using 1 range weapons when Javelins and Hand Axes are useful on both the enemy and player phases? Logically, it'll kill enemies faster, and therefore help you beat the chapter faster, and faster chapter completion is the standard of this list, right?

Both methods are doing damage. Simply the melee method needing more healing.

You're going to get hit no matter what, so melee users are useful for taking these hits and being guaranteed to doing damage back due to higher accuracy. Javelins, Hand Axes, and Gordon are hanging out behind other units. I am not saying that ranged weapons are not as useful as Melee, I was simply telling dondon how melee weapons are typically used on H5 to reduce counter attack damage.

For my standard for tier lists, I'm going by "less turn count is better, but is not the main goal." If it were the main goal, then there would only be two tiers, a top and a bottom.

[Dat Nick]

Why would we reduce efficiency by using 1 range weapons when Javelins and Hand Axes are useful on both the enemy and player phases? Logically, it'll kill enemies faster, and therefore help you beat the chapter faster

...Helping efficiency? Yes, missing does wonders for efficiency.

and no, more misses means the chapter will take LONGER. You don't use handaxes/javelins in every possible scenario, and it's not as valuable right now as you keep claiming it is. It gets more helpful later in in the later chapters where your guys get better skill and weapon ranks, not to mention the game slowly becoming more lance dominant [Meaning Javelins go from WTD to Neutral and Handaxes going from Neutral to WTA] but as of now it's simply too unreliable. Certainly not reliable enough to warrant Saji being above Marth for Marth's mobility/durability leads, not to mention his rapier.

And take a strong counter as a result? I know I'd take a fairly reliable chance to hit and take no damage in return over having 10-15% more hit and taking a strong counter in return.

Except it's not a fairly reliable chance.

65%, even in a 2 RN system, is REALLY pushing it and I don't want to depend on it.

Yes, I'd rather take a strong counter, because that allows me to use stooges who I don't give a shit about [saji, prolly Maji too] to reliably hit stuff, and them taking damage doesn't matter, since I actually WANT them to die.

...Furthermore, when I said "hit in the 80s with roughly the same damage", I was referring to Gordin.

What's this talk about low, unreliable Hit again? It's definitely not uber low, and though not the most reliable, it's far from unreliable.

It's very failable, much more than you think. This is two thirds a chance to hit and one third a chance not too, roughly.

Now then, how is taking no damage while having fairly reliable Hit possibly worse than having a more reliable chance to hit and eat a strong counter?

How is missing better than hitting? You're strongly exaggerating how deadly counters are. I really hope you know that.

Because, as I've said before, if all your little chip damages miss, then guess what? Generic pirate #101 is still alive, and you're going to eat a counter despite your desperate attempts not to.

So then it's safe to assume what's the most logical, and the most logical is that enemies attack what doesn't counter

Yeah, okay. Let's all assume the game is as smart as you think it is just to help your argument.

Get what I'm trying to say?

I get you're pretty damn biased against Gordin and refuse to acknowledge any point that will benefit him, yes.

This one hit...how often will it happen? Not very often, wanna know why? Because unlike other 2 rangers, Gordin has something called "reliable hit." This means he's a better softener, meaning Marth/Ogma/Barst can finish pirates off faster, meaning he gets attacked less. And he's only ever getting one rounded if you keep the steel bow equipped on him in enemy range, anyway. So Draug isn't even more durable than Gordin meaning that entire point is moot anyway.

And those Pirates that deal huge damage to her?

oh yeah

the same pirates that deal huge damage to Marth, Abel, Cain, Ogma, Barst, Saji, Maji, Daros, Riff...

And those Hunters that one-round her?

all two of them on the map?

there is still a good amount of enemies that pose a huge threat to her

A grand total of two more that pose any more threat to her than to anybody else.

due to the Pirates being able to walk over water

which hurts Marth/Abel/Cain/Riff/Ogma/Barst/Daros every bit as much as it does Shiida.

Hunters having 2 range, and Cavaliers being very flexible themselves.

you forgot the part where they're seriously in the minority of enemies, and thus are easily dealt with.

except that she has pretty reliable Hit against whatever she's attacking with a Javelin.

...and she's fucked over if she misses. You really want to risk Shiida's life like that? Well, you wouldn't mind it later but right now she's too good to waste.

What has a better chance of happening doesn't always happen. Otherwise 51% hit rates would be universally accepted as reliable and people would think it's a good idea to solo maps with Dorcas.

She gets fucked over when she uses her Wing Spear, so she wants to use a Javelin.

Uh, huh, right.

The damage she does with a javelin is pretty crappy, so who's to say she even kills with Javelin? That'd take a lot of softens. You can't spend the entire player phase chucking 2 range weapons. You have to reposition some guys out of danger, and you have to make sure you kill the unit your guys are pincushioning. Shiida does a lot more melee damage than anybody else [okay, maybe not a LOT more than Ogma]. Even if she does have to eat a counter.

If she doesn't kill the enemy with her Wing Spear, she doesn't use it, or she gets fucked over and dies a horrible death.

...the same result which happens if she misses with javelin

which is about a third of a chance, which is too damn much to toy with the life of such a valuable unit [for the time being]

Edited March 7, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[grandjackal]

...Helping efficiency? Yes, missing does wonders for efficiency.

and no, more misses means the chapter will take LONGER. You don't use handaxes/javelins in every possible scenario, and it's not as valuable right now as you keep claiming it is. It gets more helpful later in in the later chapters where your guys get better skill and weapon ranks, not to mention the game slowly becoming more lance dominant [Meaning Javelins go from WTD to Neutral and Handaxes going from Neutral to WTA] but as of now it's simply too unreliable. Certainly not reliable enough to warrant Saji being above Marth for Marth's mobility/durability leads, not to mention his rapier.

This.

We can't afford missing a lot, a simple miss could screw a lot of things up. It's ok to have, but we can't depend on them earlier. Later though we can, for stated reasons.

It's just...we gotta be careful early on. Throwing weapons aren't exactly a careful weapon.

[Tino]

Did you guys even read my post in which I covered this whole missing part?

This?

I'd rather not risk that when I can have hit in the 80s with roughly the same damage

And take a strong counter as a result? I know I'd take a fairly reliable chance to hit and take no damage in return over having 10-15% more hit and taking a strong counter in return.

...and who's saying javelins are good in this timeframe? Hit matters. A lot. "not eating a counter" doesn't justify unreliable numbers. Cause if you miss and can't finish the guy off next turn, guess what, you're going to eat a counter anyway.

I was wrong in my assumption. Javelin users have around the same Hit against the Pirates as Hand Axe users, have higher Hit against Hunters, and then have equal Hit against Cavaliers again. Assuming 60-65 displayed Hit against Pirates, that becomes a 68-76% true chance to hit.

What's this talk about low, unreliable Hit again? It's definitely not uber low, and though not the most reliable, it's far from unreliable.

Now then, how is taking no damage while having fairly reliable Hit possibly worse than having a more reliable chance to hit and eat a strong counter?

To prove my point, Hit against Pirates with Javelin/Hand Axe:

Abel: 61 displayed, ~70% true

Jeigan: 62 displayed, ~72% true

Doga: 55 displayed, ~60% true

Sheeda: 64 displayed, ~74% true

Barts: 60 displayed, ~68% true

Saji: 56 displayed, ~62% true

Daros: 55 displayed, ~60% true

So seriously, the only ones who might have some real trouble hitting are Doga, Saji, and Daros, and even they have at a pretty fair 60% chance to hit, which again, even though not the most reliable, is far from completely unreliable, and especially when we look at the other Javelin/Hand Axe users, I think it's safe to conclude that their Hit with ranged weapons isn't as bad as you claim it to be.

And, don't forget, this is their Hit against Pirates. Their displayed hit increases by 10 if they attack a Cavalier or Hunter (Abel, Jeigan, Doga, and Sheeda) or if they attack a Cavalier (Barts, Saji, Daros), so their Hit can only rise.

...except his hit is way worse, and he doesn't even deal any more damage

in fact, due to WTA, I think Gordin wins damage, too?

Iron Lance Doga deals more damage than Iron Bow Gordon, and Javelin Doga deals the same amount of damage as Steel Bow Gordon. But admittedly, Gordon does have more reliable Hit.

Gordon: 95/85 Hit

Doga: 93/73 Hit (83/63 against Pirates)

Okay, I must admit, Doga is offensively inferior to Gordon, since they usually deal equal damage, and Gordon has more reliable Hit, so I'll give that point to Gordon.

..You mind telling me why you keep rehashing this phase over and over? I have seen nothing to suggest that enemies target what won't counter over what can. In fact, I've seen the game do things that lead me to believe the opposite.

Similarly, I have seen enemies target those who don't counter more often than those who do counter, unless the unit who can counter is going to die if the enemy's attack connects. But I've also seen the things you saw. Basically, the AI is sort of unpredictable, I suppose, which means anything can happen, which basically means that everything has a 50% chance to happen...

However, I personally have seen enemies go for not taking the counter more often than they went for taking the counter, so I can conclude that Gordon is more of an enemy magnet than Doga is.

But you know, our experiences aren't debatable. You've seen what you saw, and so did I. So then it's safe to assume what's the most logical, and the most logical is that enemies attack what doesn't counter, and especially if they can one-round that what doesn't counter, which they can if "that what doesn't counter" is utilizing his Steel Bow.

Why? One hit is one hit. It's the same gap as 899 hits before dying and 900 hits before dying. You can't assume Riff always has nothing better to do than heal one specific target. Other people are getting hit. And Riff is only one healer. So he has a lot to do.

It's the same absolute gap, yes, but it's a totally different relative gap. Gordon gets killed whenever something attacks him. Doga, on the other hand, can survive at least one hit. When you're talking about 899 and 900 hits, you're talking about two units who basically aren't going to die anyway, and because they aren't, the relative gap is basically zero. The relative gap between one hit and two hits, however, is relatively a lot bigger.

Get what I'm trying to say?

There's still only two cavs on the map. It's really not that hard to have Shiida attack them to OHK after Gordin and maybe one of the axe guys have softened them.

...

And those Pirates that deal huge damage to her? And those Hunters that one-round her? Those all suddenly are out of the picture? Even if she does manage to kill a Cavalier without taking a counter, there is still a good amount of enemies that pose a huge threat to her, and her flexibility doesn't help her much at the moment, either, due to the Pirates being able to walk over water, Hunters having 2 range, and Cavaliers being very flexible themselves.

I'd much rather she miss with a javelin and get gang raped on the enemy phase

Basically, that's what I said, except that she has pretty reliable Hit against whatever she's attacking with a Javelin. She gets fucked over when she uses her Wing Spear, so she wants to use a Javelin.

because Shiida would rather toss a javelin at something over what she could just kill with a wing spear, or help weaken.

If she can kill with a Wing Spear hit, then fine, let her use that Wing Spear. However, more often than not, your units, including Sheeda, are weaking units, which means she's more often than not better off using her Javelin. If she doesn't kill the enemy with her Wing Spear, she doesn't use it, or she gets fucked over and dies a horrible death.

[Dat Nick]

Yeah, I read it and it's addressed in my edit.

Try not to repost whole essays plz kthx

[Dr. Tarrasque]

This.

We can't afford missing a lot, a simple miss could screw a lot of things up. It's ok to have, but we can't depend on them earlier. Later though we can, for stated reasons.

It's just...we gotta be careful early on. Throwing weapons aren't exactly a careful weapon.

>_> Then you're going to use throwing weapons because that results in your units being at full HP during the enemy phase. Stick to just direct attack and you're just begging for characters to die...

You guys talk as if throwing weapons are seriously unreliable at this point which just isn't the case. As Tino explained, they have decent enough hit and you've got plenty to use during the early game (this stops if your units are dying though and attacking directly during your phase will see to that).

If you're going to attack directly, it better be to finish off an enemy or weaken an enemy if you're absolutely 100% certain that nobody's going to attack the person that just made the direct attack.

[Rodykitty]

Regardless, I think this is enough to prove Gordon > Doga, which was the original intent of the argument anyway, since Doga *does* have unreliable hit and is getting doubled by everything.

Edited March 7, 2009 by Chainey