H5 Tier list topic

[grandjackal]

Overall, I'd give the win to hunter-general too, but it's incredibly close.

Basically Hunter-General is safer while providing generally the same effects (pre-promotion they both can only do one thing a turn, with the exception of pre-promotion draug can utilize walterwalk as the fighter/pirate->berserker route and has hand axes, of which his accuracy is terrible with it due to his skill and luck being that bad (Even at 20/20 with A rank, he never breaks 100 hit with hand axes). Chances are fighter/pirate is more exposed, and that Hunter starts doubling a level sooner (2 in hte pirate's case).

Post-promotion, Berserker doubles everything immediately, walterwalk, crit rate, and axes. On top of that, he even has enough durability to be 3RKOd by 28 Mt attacks (leaves him with 1 HP, but that just shows how awesome he is). However, the General is taking 4 of those silvers, has a more available horseslaying weapon, bows in general are better than hammers (as generals are easy enough to kill), and is still durable even when braves show up, and his durability can only grow more from there. Basically it's offense vs defense, and defense is always>offense, especially if you have good offense anyways.

I'd actually say this might make Draug climb up...Certainly above Darros, who has earlygame woes while Hunter keeps Draug from worrying, his problems fix up sooner, and the fact that lategame Darros might be nigh invincible, but Draug is doubling and it taking 4 of the strongest power on a map to take him down is not much difference. Wendell might be a challenge, and Marth+Athena are certain contenders. Guess he won't be getting into high tier though, unless we warrent him the same grace we're giving the cavs up there, as they certainly don't have Hardin's insta-silver or Ogma's earlygame madness.

Think about it though. The cavs aren't having a better earlygame (Draug's better against hunters, gets 4RKOd joining chapter, has a javelin over Cain). Sure, we gotta class change (thus why I'm not gonna argue him over Hardin), but we still get results in the end similar to, if not greater than the cavs. I mean, post promotion he's more durable than Abel (surprisingly has luck over him, 5 more Def, same HP, SAME SPEED), better offense (Bows>Swords), and all Abel has to retort to this with is 2 more Str and move. Hell, he's faster than Cain.

In fact with all this in mind, he can do exactly as the cavs can do with utility, essentially switch between any class they want and still be good. He's proven a good axer, he's proven a good hunter, this means he can be a good warrior, a good berserker, a good hero, a good general.Hell, even DM's an option. Even after a bit as other classes to build up his speed, not like he can't fall back on armor knight with it's C lances (will be a C by chapter 4 if we use him seriously).

Edited July 13, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Dat Nick]

Oh right, Sorcerers....

Uh...put those in between bishop and sage. That should be accurate, but I'd love to see more specifics on how generics work [THey don't seem to be based on Marth's level]

btw, Lorenz>Arran. Sniper is Arran's preferred setup, yes? Well, unless he manages to gain 5 levels with his crap EXP gain, he's not tying Lorenz's base ATK. You can't really argue "He's there and Lorenz isn't", because...well, because Arran's freaking garbage. Granted, Lorenz is garbage too, but one look at bases should tell you that Lorenz is a much smaller load of it. That and his auto-silver bow use. Arran's speed lead would be relevant if he actually doubled anything.

Arran joins later, Lorenz joins later. Lorenz's later jointime is actually working in his favor as he's not sucking as long.

Edited July 13, 2009 by Norton Says What?

[Colonel M]

Some H5 Character Ranking topic news:

- Bumped Bord up, changed some of the description to match AK. Obviously jumped in rating, but I only pit him at a 5.

- Added Hunter -> General to Doga's list.

By the way I'm not trying to be 100% reflective on the Tier list; the main problem is finding out these new class options. I almost was going to put Mishalen at about 1.5/10 until I saw the Fighter -> Hero stats and thought he could climb a bit higher or lower on the tier list, then boost the rating that I was predicting. As for what I'd put him under for now if I could... maybe 3.5-4/10 for now. Midia and Astram are probably going to score a 2, then Boah might be a 2.5-3 due to healing.

Just an inside scoop.

---

As for pondering about things, Generic Hero > Generic Paladin. Thinking about it, the Hero can at least swap to a Horseman and obtain an auto-Bow rank. This is just assuming that the Generics can swap around in class rankings.

[dondon151]

You can't really argue "He's there and Lorenz isn't", because...well, because Arran's freaking garbage.

If you're a sniper, chances are you're only contributing positively to the team, so this isn't a valid argument.

[Dat Nick]

Yes, because Arran's single-digit damage is SO useful to the team in the time he's there and Lorenz isn't.

At least Lorenz can deal half decent damage to fliers at base due to B bows.

[Capracanis]

@Cap: If you are unhappy with the tier list, you have two options:

1) Argue characters higher or lower

2) Write a Letter to Mr. Obama

I don't recommend the latter.

Doesn't help when this is the answer I'm getting:

I think you missed the part where I said we don't care.

Please don't trouble us further.

So, the fact that you realize that the averages do not add up 100% in-game and that my method, though different has worked and defies the tier list mean that you ignore me? Really? Wow, real mature there.

*Let's pick on this kid because he's different*

Wow, are you still in grade 8 or something? Grow the fuck up and be open for once.

I'm telling you that Palla is useful and yet she's significantly low. Considering the EXP she'll get with a Ridersbane and the damage she'll do (thanks to the next chapter having lots of horsies) I fail to seee whyt she's low. The only logica explination is if you're planning on usig Catria without Palla, in which case, fine. But on her own, despite her speed-flaws, at 20/20 Falcoknight or Swordsmaster if you PegKn->SwdMstr, it'll stillb e damn close to max, if not maxed. I mean she has to be higher. But really, what are the odds of anyone actually not ignoring me?

As for Arran, Samson is better but only slightly. Never really go for Arran. At least Est has a chance to grow to be abit better but not that much.

Edited July 13, 2009 by Capracanis

[dondon151]

Whatever you say, Cap.

[Colonel M]

20/20 stats do not justify your tier placements. It's how you're relative to the team, how fast you can improve if you come by midgame, and how well you do by Endgame. If you're a utility unit, then it's relative to how you help the team.

We don't do stuff just by saying "hey, look at these stats and how great he is by 20/20". I don't think I need to fully explain how a Tier List works.

EDIT: Why doesn't anyone debate SD anymore? Only BB seemed to be the only person to do so, then there was Mekkah and Wolf, but that's about it. *Sighz*. Though Camtech did mention about trying that conditional debate with AK Gordon (lol 80% HP and 50% Def growth).

Edited July 13, 2009 by Colonel M

[dondon151]

Dude any contradiction that's supported by people who know how to argue this game will result in a "let's pick on this kid because he's different" so just don't even try

Edited July 13, 2009 by dondon151

[Colonel M]

Don't worry, I really wouldn't. I'd rather debate with someone else tbh.

Still, let's actually focus on this Arran vs. Lorenz ordeal. Maybe all 3 of them can slam down into "Worst than Est" Tier after all.

Edited July 13, 2009 by Colonel M

[grandjackal]

It's not so much that, as much as this list is coming along that well. I can't spot any differences to be made unless someone else points it out at this point.

As for Arran worse than Lorenz, not sure how to feel on it.

Anyone disagree with Draug for High Tier? He's basically the starter cav duo in B class.

[Dat Nick]

EDIT: Why doesn't anyone debate SD anymore? Only BB seemed to be the only person to do so, then there was Mekkah and Wolf, but that's about it. *Sighz*. Though Camtech did mention about trying that conditional debate with AK Gordon (lol 80% HP and 50% Def growth).

Just so you know, I didn't forget about Cord vs Wolf, it's still being worked on. Love to do something else if you can think of anything, but I'll save it for after I get knocked out of the FE9 tourny.

Still, let's actually focus on this Arran vs. Lorenz ordeal. Maybe all 3 of them can slam down into "Worst than Est" Tier after all.

I'm only going to advocate this if Rickard follows. I don't think Lorenz is bad enough to be in the same tier as Est, and I'm arguing him up if anything, anyway.

Edited July 13, 2009 by Norton Says What?

[Colonel M]

Just so you know, I didn't forget about Cord vs Wolf, it's still being worked on. Love to do something else if you can think of anything, but I'll save it for after I get knocked out of the FE9 tourny.

Heh, sure. It'd be cool to have more people debate it, but I digress. I'll think of some in the meantime.

I'm only going to advocate this if Rickard follows. I don't think Lorenz is bad enough to be in the same tier as Est, and I'm arguing him up if anything, anyway.

Yeah, I'd say Rickard could easily follow this, but if you think Lorenz is better, then I guess there's no harm trying to argue him over Arran.

@Wolf: I think Bord slipping a bit higher or Mishalen to see where he can go, then I'd say this is pretty much intact after that and the Lorenz / Arran / Rickard ordeal.

Edited July 13, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dat Nick]

but if you think Lorenz is better, then I guess there's no harm trying to argue him over Arran.

I already did...

[Colonel M]

K, well I agree with B2BD on this one. Lorenz > Arran seems fair.

[grandjackal]

Soooooo, no one disagrees with Draug in high tier?

[_____]

Where in High Tier, though? I can see him above Hardin and maybe Ogma, but after that...

[grandjackal]

I was gonna say below Hardin, as he doesn't have the sheer instant value of Hardin (Insta-silver), or Ogma (Earlygame brutality). Draug just happens to be similar to the cav duo, just he's in B class.

I'd say just below Hardin, but if you all see him above Ogma AND Hardin, who I can see him having a case against as they aren't quite as flexible class-wise.

[Quasar]

What you're going with is kind of a moot point. It doesn't matter if he's similiar to the cavs in B set, what matters is what he can do (Pirate/Fighter axing etc) in the said set and does that make him better than Ogma and Hardin.

[_____]

Speaking of which, are we talking about Hunter -> Warrior Draug or Hunter -> General Draug? I've seen both mentioned.

[dondon151]

I always go fighter -> ? Draug...

[grandjackal]

What you're going with is kind of a moot point. It doesn't matter if he's similiar to the cavs in B set, what matters is what he can do (Pirate/Fighter axing etc) in the said set and does that make him better than Ogma and Hardin.

No, which is why I want him below them.

Speaking of which, are we talking about Hunter -> Warrior Draug or Hunter -> General Draug? I've seen both mentioned.

Hunter-General, but just like the cavs he can go generally as any build and still come out amazing.

I always go fighter -> ? Draug...

Was usually agreed on that it was Fighter/Pirate->Berserker.

[Colonel M]

Like I've said before it's kind of a universal options:

Fighter / Pirate -> Berserker

Hunter -> General

Dark Mage -> Sorcerer

Fighter / Pirate -> Hero

Hunter -> Warrior

He's got quite a few options, shall we say. I dunno about Hunter or Mercenary -> Hoseman though.

[Rodykitty]

Mercenary -> Whatever would give existing Def growth, but I wouldn't know if it outweighs superior HP growth of Fighter.

[Colonel M]

Mercenary -> Whatever would give existing Def growth, but I wouldn't know if it outweighs superior HP growth of Fighter.

Probably not. 20/1 Doga has about 35 HP / 8 Def as a Mercenary -> Hero and 20/1 Doga has about 40.8 HP / 6.6 Def (2 levels AK. IIRC I gave it to Merc Doga too).

Taking a 21 Atk Archer for an example, Hero Doga is 3RKOed and so is Berserker Doga (rounded down the two stats). I don't think Merc!Doga's 5% Def growth is helping much (it's like Roger's base: 0. Weird for AKs, huh?)

EDIT: I probably should stop with the localization names but "A God" > "Guard". >_>;

Edited July 13, 2009 by Colonel M