H5 Tier list topic

[_____]

well don't look at me

I've made it quite clear where I stand in this debate, yeah?

Might want to tune down the confidence a bit

You're taking it the wrong way. I wasn't saying that you guys were automatically going to agree with me. I was saying that Chainey is only going to listen to you guys, no matter what.

D Starting staves is only 23 uses to C. Spam uses and it's fine.

So, we need to spam staff uses for Midia and Tomas to do what most other units can do anyway? Hmmm...

I've already shown numerous times that Rickard is not in any way, shape, or form, required for these chests.

Did I ever say he was required? No? Good, we're on the same page, then.

Rickard is not required for those chests. Nobody is technically required for those chests because you could use any one of the three units that are able to pick them to grab what's inside. However, the fact remains that Rickard is one of the few units that has the ability to grab what's inside of those chests, while Midia and Tomas can't. Therefore, he has utility that they don't. It matters a lot.

hm? Thomas is only bad at his VERY start. 2 levels, seal, that's gone. He's better than Medea now, in fact [better stats and bow rank] furthermore, enlighten me on how Midia's midgame is "bad".

Better stats is a lie. He has basically the same starting stats and almost universally worse growths.

Anyway, 2-4RKOing while being 1-2RKO'd is not good, thus, it's pretty bad/decent. I specifically put "Pretty" there because it isn't Rickard-bad combat.

You're right, a forge doesn't solve it, bows do instead.

Gotta' disagree with you there. Terrible start, terrible end, mediocre midgame. There are still quite a few problems.

you're right again, she's doing that on her own. 4 levels is all she needs to double cavs/archers.

The lolmages in Chapter 15, yeah. Afterwards, though... Well, I've already shown that set of numbers and she isn't doubling and still only 2-4RKOing.

brb chest maps

6: Gonna have to warp-kill here

Already conceded that the most he's going to do is grab the chest at the start.

9: 1 and 2 are right on the way pretty much, 3 likely needs a warp/thief kill

It makes more sense to have Marth go recruit Jeorge ASAP. Hell, if Rickard goes south, we don't even need to waste Door Keys.

10: RIght on the way and you'll likely kill the thief for one anyway

Conceded.

12: There's a huge honking room which gets opened near the end of the chapter anyway, and Rickard isn't any more helpful than Marth for getting the boots in the SE room.

Somebody is going to have to get the boots while the other loots the treasure in the treasure room. Since the boots are on the way to the throne, Rickard is better left off in the treasure room, where he's pretty much safe, anyway. Hell, you could just take out the two armors and shuffle into the big room right above where the chestroom is. It's got two choke points and should be fairly effective at taking out Heimler and the reinforcements.

Right on the way AGAIN, and thief killing is still a viable way to get them as there's two theives who nab the chests at roughly the same time

Right on the way what

Marth needs to grab the Thoron and recruit Catria and Palla, which is on the entire other side of the map. Also, if you try for a thief kill, the Sniper rears his ugly head and has a chance to kill you. Meanwhile, we could've just let Rickard grab the chests, and then go open the door under the shops.

15: It's not that far out of the way, and having a flier kill the thief is easy anyway

It's on the entire opposite side of the map from the throne again. How is it not out of the way? Also, the mages that spawn in the room put a dent in that plan.

17: Treasure room just like 12, so really no issue

Entire. Other. Side. Of. The. Map. Oh, and you can't count of thief kills here because the thieves run after grabbing, like, one thing each.

17x: Might be a problem here, but you have a lot of warp uses by now, on the flip side.

So, you're warping Marth all the way back to treasure rooms? Well, who the hell is going to warp him back? It's counterproductive.

19: see above

See above.

20x: a split easily solved by a single warp staff

Marth needs to run to one side, get warped to the other, then run all the way back to the top when we could have just had a thief steal the other side of the chests? Are you seriously saying that's better than just fielding Rickard?

23: The thief tries to nab them anyway, have the flier kill the sob then use the draco's 10 move to get back into the action or hey, Warp: I mean, Hammerne and all

He'll block off your only entrance to the spire if you let him come. Then, you'll have to let him pass, which lets the Swarm Bishops get into place, which is bad.

24: Oh look, fire mamkutes all over the damn place.

Fuck the Aum staff. If you really wanted it, NOW would be the time to use a warp staff.

24x: ...Really?

I guess if you want Shiida/Merric to have another use of a holy tome, you could field him to grab the one Marth doesn't grab. Doesn't really matter by this point, though.

Master Ninji, please enlighten me on how these chests inconvenience us so. It would save such a piddling amount of turns I honestly think you'd save more just fielding a competent combat unit, meaning Rickard has yet again defeated his own purpose.

All you've proven to me is that you need to waste quite a few warps to grab this treasure without Rickard.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Ninji

[grandjackal]

Midia and Tomas are not in any way, shape, or form required to kill enemies or heal your units.

One helps us beat the game, the other keeps us alive. Gee, what's more important, thiefing (which can be done with damned keys and Marth), combat or healing? Hmmm...

I'd also prefer to play a good combat unit instead of Midia or Tomas, meaning Midia and Tomas have defeated their own purpose.

Might I also point out that even spending a few turns more is hurting your efficiency. It's not like Rickard has to be on the front line. More likely, he's hanging towards the back where he's safe without you even setting up a wall, and then he can go run into a room with chests and Marth can move ahead to seize sooner. Even if he's only saving us two turns on each of those chapters, that's adding up to 26 turns that we didn't spend. Are Midia and Tomas doing that?

This ain't other FEs, son. This game, most of the time you're getting 2RKOd. Not taking a counter when you kill something is fantastic, and that's what archers do. Chip damage is actually pretty awesome here.

However, it's more embaressing for Rickard, as I could replace him with fucking keys. Technically, anyone could do Rickard's job, and he in no way, hsape, or form, makes up for it. He doesn't even come close. At last Thomas and Midia can become good eventually.

[Colonel M]

Shit, wrote something, got... eh fml.

Anyway, chapters where thieves are viable:

- C17

- C17X (two chests)

- C19 (yeah, don't try to blow this off)

- C20X

Those are probably the bigger impacts. I don't really consider Warp a viable strategy because it's flexible in many ways than that. Also, a good reason to get the Excalibur in C24X: C25's DracoKnights. Total. Bitches. Having someone like Etzel or a generic Sage can help pummel these guys to the ground.

Then again... those Paladins suck too.

It makes more sense to have Marth go recruit Jeorge ASAP. Hell, if Rickard goes south, we don't even need to waste Door Keys.

Actually it barely matters. I've had to regroup on that side anyway (this chapter... is not... fun... at... all!). The only one that seriously matters is the Wyrmslayer one, but that one requires a Pegasi (guess keeping Athena alive wouldn't be so much of a bad thing... now if only we had auto-D Lances...)

Marth needs to grab the Thoron and recruit Catria and Palla, which is on the entire other side of the map. Also, if you try for a thief kill, the Sniper rears his ugly head and has a chance to kill you. Meanwhile, we could've just let Rickard grab the chests, and then go open the door under the shops.

Thoron isn't that useful anyway. It's only 1 Mt more than Bolganone and accuracy shouldn't be a major issue at this point. Crit is nice, but then again Sages aren't pulling heavy Skill and some barely have supports to do so. It's best as a money grabber.

Also, Catria and Palla come straight to him either way.

As for the Sniper, he's blocking the road in the first place so he needs to be defeated either way. Generals would be the best way to take him out.

---

I understand keys can replace him, but please let's not take it fully out of context. Remember that almost ANY unit can replace Midia and Tomas's pathetic asses, though Tomas only needs the promotion to stabilize a bit (Silver Bow is the reason).

I'm not siding either side, just minorly nitpicking.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Colonel M

[_____]

One helps us beat the game, the other keeps us alive. Gee, what's more important, thiefing (which can be done with damned keys and Marth), combat or healing? Hmmm...

One helps us pay for the weapons and staves that allow units to heal and fight, the other two are reliant on it. Hmmm...

Also,

thiefing (which can be done with damned keys and Marth)

Combat (which can be done with damned anyone, including Marth)

Healing (which can be done with damned anyone in Class Set A)

So, yeah, fuck that logic.

This ain't other FEs, son. This game, most of the time you're getting 2RKOd. Not taking a counter when you kill something is fantastic, and that's what archers do. Chip damage is actually pretty awesome here.

hypehypehypehypehypehypehypehypehypehypehype

^That's what I read your post as, especially since anyone that isn't Rickard, a Mamkute, Julian, or Marth can switch to Hunter/Archer and do the same thing.

However, it's more embaressing for Rickard, as I could replace him with fucking keys. Technically, anyone could do Rickard's job, and he in no way, hsape, or form, makes up for it. He doesn't even come close. At last Thomas and Midia can become good eventually.

For 10 chests out of 52. Seriously, did you even read a thing anyone has said for Rickard? Also, Tomas and Midia become mediocre and then start sucking as hard as Rickard again in the lategame.

Shit, wrote something, got... eh fml.

Anyway, chapters where thieves are viable:

- C17

- C17X (two chests)

- C19 (yeah, don't try to blow this off)

- C20X

It impacts 9, 12, and 14 quite a bit, too.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Ninji

[Colonel M]

It impacts 9, 12, and 14 quite a bit, too.

Not really. I've talked about 9 and 14. C12 is a straight path to the throne anyway. The only REAL threats are the General and the Sniper, and the latter can be distracted by someone else, and the General doesn't move IIRC.

There's the east chests... I guess. Though I could touch on those being used by the Master Key. Guess we could be choosy on what we want on some things (the C20X has Wo Dao and Killer Axe, not weapons I'd normally use).

EDIT: *Facepalm*. Boots. K, guess 12 wouldn't be so bad either.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Colonel M

[_____]

Not really. I've talked about 9 and 14.

Hmmm? Where?

C12 is a straight path to the throne anyway. The only REAL threats are the General and the Sniper, and the latter can be distracted by someone else, and the General doesn't move IIRC.

Why force Marth to wait in the throne room the entire chapter instead of letting Rickard do it? It's not like he's got anything better to do.

[Colonel M]

Not really. I've talked about 9 and 14.

Hmmm? Where?

*Sigh*

Actually it barely matters. I've had to regroup on that side anyway (this chapter... is not... fun... at... all!). The only one that seriously matters is the Wyrmslayer one, but that one requires a Pegasi (guess keeping Athena alive wouldn't be so much of a bad thing... now if only we had auto-D Lances...)

Thoron isn't that useful anyway. It's only 1 Mt more than Bolganone and accuracy shouldn't be a major issue at this point. Crit is nice, but then again Sages aren't pulling heavy Skill and some barely have supports to do so. It's best as a money grabber.

Also, Catria and Palla come straight to him either way.

As for the Sniper, he's blocking the road in the first place so he needs to be defeated either way. Generals would be the best way to take him out.

C12 is a straight path to the throne anyway. The only REAL threats are the General and the Sniper, and the latter can be distracted by someone else, and the General doesn't move IIRC.

Why force Marth to wait in the throne room the entire chapter instead of letting Rickard do it? It's not like he's got anything better to do.

I already conceded 12.

EDIT: Actually, I'd scrap C20X and throw C12 in there instead. C20X only has the two crit weapons which don't do much IMO.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

I think everyone agrees that Rickard shouldn't rise, therefore he isn't.

[Dat Nick]

So, we need to spam staff uses for Midia and Tomas to do what most other units can do anyway? Hmmm...

Spamming staves is that big of a deal? Midia doesn't need to go out of her way to find a wounded unit to heal.

Gotta' disagree with you there. Terrible start, terrible end, mediocre midgame. There are still quite a few problems.

How is this relevant to what I said? You were making a fuss out of her bad defense. Bows=countered way less

It makes more sense to have Marth go recruit Jeorge ASAP.

Does it? He's not going anywhere, after all.

Somebody is going to have to get the boots while the other loots the treasure in the treasure room.

paladin/masterkey gogo

It's on the entire opposite side of the map from the throne again. How is it not out of the way? Also, the mages that spawn in the room put a dent in that plan.

No, they don't. Only one mage reinforcement per turn, which is sealed off by said flier. Fliers aren't getting OHKd by mages anyway [Not even base Catria is]

It's on the entire opposite side of the map from the throne again. How is it not out of the way?

Did you even LOOK at that map? Look at all the friggin enemies near the treasure room. You're going to need to send most of your combat units regardless, so Marth isn't going anywhere out of his way.

So, you're warping Marth all the way back to treasure rooms? Well, who the hell is going to warp him back? It's counterproductive.

no

Marth takes the shit in the rooms, THEN gets warped

Marth needs to run to one side, get warped to the other, then run all the way back to the top when we could have just had a thief steal the other side of the chests?

Marth takes the 2 chests on one side. He gets warped, takes the two on the other side, and should be up to the boss by the time the rest of your units get there. Not seeing the issue.

He'll block off your only entrance to the spire if you let him come. Then, you'll have to let him pass, which lets the Swarm Bishops get into place, which is bad.

so it is

Even so, just a matter of Marth+Door Key, and Lena to warp him back

All you've proven to me is that you need to waste quite a few warps to grab this treasure without Rickard.

We have anything better to use the abundance of Warps on? news to me

Anyway, 2-4RKOing while being 1-2RKO'd is not good, thus, it's pretty bad/decent. I specifically put "Pretty" there because it isn't Rickard-bad combat.

I'll need to look at Midia's EXP gain before saying anything else: obviously 1 level in this scenario changes pretty much everything about her midgame as she's only borderline not doubling the cavs.

[_____]

I think everyone agrees that Rickard shouldn't rise, therefore he isn't.

You, Jackal, and BB are not everyone, Chainey.

Slize and IOS agree with me. Colonel M is neutral. I don't know about Sirius, but I think he's neutral.

That's 3 vs. 3, a tie, not "well, fuck you, everyone agrees with me, well, at least they people I care about".

Spamming staves is that big of a deal? Midia doesn't need to go out of her way to find a wounded unit to heal.

Rickard doesn't need to go out of his way to find a chest to pick, though I know that's not what you're saying.

Wasting staves so she can do what nearly everyone else can do vs. not needing to waste anything to do what only a select few can do. Hmmm...

How is this relevant to what I said? You were making a fuss out of her bad defense. Bows=countered way less

That was my mistake. Yes, she isn't countered as often as someone with a melee weapon would be, but it also means that they won't hesitate to prioritize attacking her before others, and if she's left unattended at any point, she's done for.

Does it? He's not going anywhere, after all.

A few pirates head that way. Jeorge weakens them so that anyone can kill them.

paladin/masterkey gogo

51 other things we could use it on gogo

No, they don't. Only one mage reinforcement per turn, which is sealed off by said flier. Fliers aren't getting OHKd by mages anyway [Not even base Catria is]

Wait, wait, wait. You either block off the reinforcement spawn point or let the Thief in. You can't do both.

Did you even LOOK at that map? Look at all the friggin enemies near the treasure room. You're going to need to send most of your combat units regardless, so Marth isn't going anywhere out of his way.

Yes, you are sending a majority of your combat units to the left. Is Marth going to be one of them? I highly doubt it. Having to treck all the way back is not good, especially since reinforcements come after turn 10.

no

Marth takes the shit in the rooms, THEN gets warped

So, no Marth/healer for that entire length of time. That's so much better than just fielding a thief like Rickard. I mean, we get to make 2 units nearly useless, and waste a warp use!

Marth takes the 2 chests on one side. He gets warped, takes the two on the other side, and should be up to the boss by the time the rest of your units get there. Not seeing the issue.

He's most definitely behind your units by that point. Let's say he goes to Ymir first. Not only does he have to wait for the healer to get there, he needs to use up 3 turns picking the chests and talking to Ymir. He goes over to the other side and then pick the chest there. Then, he needs to run up to the boss. Your units were there a while ago. Also, another Warp use down.

so it is

Even so, just a matter of Marth+Door Key, and Lena to warp him back

Again, we waste a Warp use and make Lena pretty useless for the chapter, when this is one of the chapters where she doesn't suck because of her huge Res. I know you could substitute any person for Lena, but you mentioned her, and that unit will still not be seeing any action.

We have anything better to use the abundance of Warps on? news to me

Warp skipping chapters. Saving the Wolfguard. Recruiting Bantu, and warping Marth back. Getting the Wyrmslayer in 9. Recruiting Jake without having to put Shiida in mortal danger. Saving Midia's group in 12. Getting to the Secret Shop in 17 without having to fight through a bunch of reinforcements. Aum staff. Blocking any reinforcement spots you want.

These are just off the top of my head, mind you, and doesn't include all of the warp uses you want to use for chests.

I'll need to look at Midia's EXP gain before saying anything else: obviously 1 level in this scenario changes pretty much everything about her midgame as she's only borderline not doubling the cavs.

I actually think one level per chapter is generous. She's doing horrible in her early chapters, and she's promoted.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Ninji

[Dat Nick]

Wasting staves so she can do what nearly everyone else can do vs. not needing to waste anything to do what only a select few can do. Hmmm...

WASTING STAVES is the issue you have? You're borderline grasping, you know that?

That was my mistake. Yes, she isn't countered as often as someone with a melee weapon would be, but it also means that they won't hesitate to prioritize attacking her before others

the solution: Don't leave Midia in enemy attack range, and eliminate all enemies in the player phase range before leaving her alone

51 other things we could use it on gogo

Yes, by all means keep dodging the issue here. That chest is out of both Marth AND Rickard's way. Paladin's the best way to go. Btw, it's more like 26~ since a lot more chests fall into your lap than you give credit for.

Wait, wait, wait. You either block off the reinforcement spawn point or let the Thief in. You can't do both.

Isn't the spawn point right next to the chests? I don't remember. Either way, this just means it's a good thing Palla and Catria exist instead of just Catria.

Yes, you are sending a majority of your combat units to the left. Is Marth going to be one of them? I highly doubt it. Having to treck all the way back is not good, especially since reinforcements come after turn 10.

We need to treck all the way back either way since the rest of our combat force needs to go back as well. And the reinforcements aren't turn based, they start coming after the door is opened.

So, no Marth/healer for that entire length of time. That's so much better than just fielding a thief like Rickard. I mean, we get to make 2 units nearly useless, and waste a warp use!

for a grand total of 3 turns, 3 turns which would likely be spent doing nothing anyway as this chapter has a lot of blank spots [Waiting for paladins to be recruited, taking out the range-trap corridor, which Marth would be unable to help with for obvious reasons, etc], oh noes.

Btw, if Marth is "nearly useless" for opening up chests, how isn't Rickard? You just contradicted your entire argument, you know that?

He's most definitely behind your units by that point. Let's say he goes to Ymir first. Not only does he have to wait for the healer to get there, he needs to use up 3 turns picking the chests and talking to Ymir.

Assuming Ymir is recruited and not killed for EXP.

Not only does he have to wait for the healer to get there,

What the hell was said healer doing NOT already there, ready to warp Marth?

Again, we waste a Warp use and make Lena pretty useless for the chapter, when this is one of the chapters where she doesn't suck because of her huge Res. I know you could substitute any person for Lena, but you mentioned her, and that unit will still not be seeing any action.

You know who else doesn't care about any action? Marth. He lacks the str to OHKO mages and will have to eat a counter for it. He lacks the 1-2 range to counter them, and he doesn't have a nifty +res promotion bonus so his durability against them suffers more than others too. I'm not going to cry over 3 turns on a unit who's quite "meh" against mages and would prefer to stay away from large groups of them either way.

Btw, who said it had to be Lena? It can be any C-Staffer. You yourself claimed earlier that "any class a Unit can C staves", yes? Well even MORE people can do it now since it's so late in the game. When everybody and their mother can warp staff Marth (Actually, thinking back, why would you do this? Already explained Marth's suckitude against Mages) why is that such an issue? Unless you're going back on your previous claim, meaning you concede that Medea's staff utility means something?

Warp skipping chapters.

While TECHNICALLY the most turn efficient manner to complete the game, I'm really not sure I like assuming this.

Saving the Wolfguard.

If you shove the Wolfguard in the bottom right corner area and move your other troops close to the river the Cavaliers and Archers come to you instead of the Wolfguard if I recall correctly. There might still be one incoming from the left passage but you can take him out with Draco Jagen or Peg Sheeda (Wing Spear) if you want to save 'em all.

there, no warp staff required

Recruiting Jake without having to put Shiida in mortal danger.

or just, y'know, keep her on Mage since Peg has long since worn out it's novelty for her?

Recruiting Bantu

RECRUITING BANTU? I'm not going to waste two warp staff uses over five turns at worst, at a point where we only have one Warp staff.

Saving Midia's group in 12.

This is running off the assumption we're using more than two, which, considering they're all meh/bad, is a very shaky argument.

Getting to the Secret Shop in 17 without having to fight through a bunch of reinforcements.

Tossing Catria the silver/member cards after the boss dies requires a warp staff to do? And if the boss is killed early, it's not "a bunch" at all.

Aum staff.

Why would you warp to get this? There's a Fire Mamkute ready to smite anybody who tries to swipe that chest if he's not taken care of. And if you can take care of him, you can swipe the damned chest anywho.

Blocking any reinforcement spots you want.

Reinforcement spots tend to come in clusters, so it's not a good idea to block them unless you can block ALL of them on the same turn. Otherwise you're basically suiciding your plug. And there's several instances where this is easily acheived without warp [16 for a prime example]

and she's promoted.

This HELPS Midia's EXP gain rather than hurting it since FEDS's EXP formula is biased towards promoted units [see: Zag/Wolf]

Edited August 31, 2009 by Joker

[_____]

You're borderline grasping, you know that?

Yes, I am. There are only so many ways I can say "thieving utility > useless combat leads" before I just start running out of ideas. This current argument doesn't even have anything to do with thieving utility anymore; you've noticed that, too, right? Honestly, I don't care what Chainey does from this point when it comes to these characters, but the fact that he won't budge on the matter at all, relying on you to give the actual arguments and then ignoring anything that anyone who isn't you, Colonel M, Sirius, or Jackal says is getting really fucking annoying. Don't think that I'm just bawwwwing over not getting the change I want, because I've heard numerous other people agree with me. Honestly, I just don't care.

[Dat Nick]

allll righty then [/aceventura]

does anybody think Matthis qualifies as mid tier material?

/desperate attempt to increase mid tier for no apparant reason

[Colonel M]

Off-topic: Castor > Bord. Thought I gave a decent argument to it (Castor has bow rank vs. Bord doesn't) and yadayada.

On-topic: ...I need some time to ponder something.

Matthis: Iffy on it. He might be wanting an early promotion because that Str growth is warranted.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Colonel M

[_____]

Actually, I can see Matthis going up to Minerva-level/Minerva dropping to Matthis-level or meeting in between, since taking a Master Seal apparently is not a negative, and Matthis is healing prior to promotion and has a 10 HP lead over her to start. That's pretty huge, and it only gets bigger. Otherwise, they are more or less the same.

[Rodykitty]

You, Jackal, and BB are not everyone, Chainey.

Slize and IOS agree with me. Colonel M is neutral. I don't know about Sirius, but I think he's neutral.

You're the only one actually posting in your favor currently, so yes, me Jackal and BB are everyone as far as I'm concerned.

[Dat Nick]

since taking a Master Seal apparently is not a negative

As explained several times before, nobody ever said taking a seal wasn't a negative. It's just not any more of a problem than most of the other units using seals. When you compare a seal user to somebody who doesn't have to use a seal, that's when it's held against them.

and has a 10 HP lead over her to start.

10 HP on units that have no business being attacked.

Awesome.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Actually, I can see Matthis going up to Minerva-level/Minerva dropping to Matthis-level or meeting in between, since taking a Master Seal apparently is not a negative, and Matthis is healing prior to promotion and has a 10 HP lead over her to start. That's pretty huge, and it only gets bigger. Otherwise, they are more or less the same.

Depends what you can do after promotion. Darros and the boys have general and come in early enough to reach 10 without favoritism.

[Colonel M]

We assume that anyone can get the Master Seal.

BTW, Biraku might go over the Cav sisters and Dolph again. Here's the hint: early promotion and a +20% Spd growth. Will look in a bit.

Alright, listen up folks. Let's say Biraku hits Level 10:

25.4 HP | 7.7 Str | 5.3 Skl | 9.6 Spd | 4.7 Luck | 8.4 Def

Promotion gains:

+6 HP | +2 Str | +6 Skl | +3 Spd | +0 Def | +3 Res

Fairly obvious. Here's what we get:

31.4 HP | 9.7 Str | 11.3 Skl | 12.6 Spd | 4.7 Luck | 8.4 Def | 3.0 Res

So before you bash on me much about the AS, I'll get to that right now. So that's just here, but the reason you might consider an early promotion is the Spd growth change:

40 -> 60%

This means that he's practically getting 14 Spd minimum by 2 levels (assuming we round up). Arsome. Now, I'd say Vyland is higher than Level 10 by this point. I had everyone at Level 12 (barring Roger who was about Level 7-8) so let's pit him at Level 13 by the time we hit C11:

33.2 HP | 10.6 Str | 12.0 Skl | 13.8 Spd | 5.6 Luck | 8.8 Def | 3.0 Res

Much more reliant on doubling. So now we've reviewed that the Spd growth improves, let's hit magic numbers. Assume that it doesn't round up:

15 Spd - 13/3

16 Spd - 13/5

17 Spd - 13/6

18 Spd - 13/7

19 Spd - 13/9

20 Spd - 13/11

21 Spd - 13/12

...Which I'd hypothetically calculate being the same as a 20/5 unit.

22 Spd - 13/14

23 Spd - 13/16

24 Spd - 13/17

...Which is about the same as a 20/10 unit.

Interesting, perhaps. Though it depends on the valadity of the situation.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

Matthis already rose up quite a bit because of Minerva.

[Dat Nick]

BTW, Biraku might go over the Cav sisters

Abel and Cain are SISTERS?!

SHOCKING PLOT DEVELOPMENT

[Colonel M]

Look at the edited post for some info.

I mean Pegasi sisters. Then again, he's already > Est.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

We assume that anyone can get the Master Seal.

BTW, Biraku might go over the Cav sisters and Dolph again. Here's the hint: early promotion and a +20% Spd growth. Will look in a bit.

I thought he already was over those 3...?

I checked the list and he isn't. I remember him being over them at some point. It's surprising how low he is.

[Rodykitty]

I'll put him above Matthis.

[grandjackal]

Just as an extra note, level 10 archer we get exactly the same except now we have better bow rank and 2 more speed. However with archer, it's basically in exchange for move and melee, of which Vyland's offense is shitty regardless, and move is not as big a deal in this game as it is others.

Archer might be viable ;;>> If we're promoting early anwyays.