H5 Tier list topic

[Rodykitty]

How is Arran doing better?

He doesn't get one shotted by everything on the map

Only as Sniper though. He actually does get one rounded as other classes.

Actually that's not entirely true. Looking back at the past post I didn't look at Social Knights for whatever reason. He's certainly not getting doubled by them even on his opening chapter.

Edited October 24, 2009 by FE3 Player

[Funkfest]

You know, Est died right after she talked to Marth. Like, right after. I was like YAY EST and she died (Thank you, archers). Now yeah, I have to say, Arran starts out better and he can use silver weapons. Even though he still has terrible bases.

[Funkfest]

You know, Est died right after she talked to Marth. Like, right after. I was like YAY EST and she died (Thank you, archers). Now yeah, I have to say, Arran starts out better and he can use silver weapons. Even though he still has terrible bases.

Edit: Please delete this double post, I swear it wasn't intentional.

Edited October 24, 2009 by Funkfest

[Rodykitty]

Did these two events happen on separate playthroughs?

Because I think this is the 2nd time you've told me this story.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

If your not using est to perform the triangle attack then don't bother bringing est and just use paola and katua alone. Est can't do anything else besides initiating the tri attack or finishing off a weakened enemy until she has promoted at a decent level. Where as paola and katua can provide chip damage or finish off enemies without the tri attack.

And est needs a forge to even initiate it. Particularly a +4 steel forge or a arm scroll so she can wield silvers instantly. And a ridersbane of course.

[tehnikhil]

Just wondering, why are there any banned suggestions at all? I understand Sedgar since he is a god and no one really wants to hear anything boosting him up right now, but what about everyone else?

[Rodykitty]

Archer Est: Because it was asked to be a banned suggestion

Sedgar & Xane: A joke. Zagaro & Chainey are on the list.

Ricard: Because we don't need another ten page discussion listening to people say that Thief utility is the greatest thing in the world.

[_____]

Ricard: Because we don't need another ten page discussion listening to people say that Thief utility is the greatest thing in the world.

Well, when you consider it almost worthless when it really isn't and want to drop an early-joining thief, someone with actual utility, below Est...

Edited October 26, 2009 by Ninji

[Candlejack]

Why is Bantu above Etzel?

[GuardianDreamer]

Let's see... what can I argue about that won't get me killed? Oh, here's something. I'll go ahead and argue Etzel vs Bantu. Okay, I'll admit Etzel is 1RKO'd by pretty much everything on the chapter he joins on, but at least he can be a decent heal bot, which helps. I'm not sure if Bantu helps out much, I don't recall how many rounds it takes Bantu to go down with a Firestone in his opening chapter, but I still think Etzel should be above him, healing utility and chip damage(Okay, BAD chip damage) help his case I think.

[Candlejack]

Bantu's base DEF with a Firestone is less than Roger's base DEF.

Samson's base STR is equal to Bantu's base STR with a Firestone.

Arran has a higher base SPD than Bantu with a Firestone.

You know if you are worse than Arran at anything, you know you fail.

[Rodykitty]

Let's see... what can I argue about that won't get me killed? Oh, here's something. I'll go ahead and argue Etzel vs Bantu. Okay, I'll admit Etzel is 1RKO'd by pretty much everything on the chapter he joins on, but at least he can be a decent heal bot, which helps. I'm not sure if Bantu helps out much, I don't recall how many rounds it takes Bantu to go down with a Firestone in his opening chapter, but I still think Etzel should be above him, healing utility and chip damage(Okay, BAD chip damage) help his case I think.

Bantu has these stats upon being handed a Fire Stone: HP 20, 25 Atk, 8 AS, 12 Def, and 5 Res

I think you are right. This is not impressive in retrospect. He'll just be doing 15 or less damage to most enemies. He is 3HKO'd by weaker enemies in Ch. 7, 2HKO'd by enemies with at least 22 Mt in Ch. 8.

Right... Etzel above Bantu for sure.

[Candlejack]

I don't think Linde should go above Bantu...

He is fine right there but he is still terrible. For a dragon.

Man, you stop getting good characters after 6x...

Edited October 26, 2009 by OliverXRenning

[tehnikhil]

I think I will try a simple argument on Linde>Bantu

1. Although bantu has good chip damage on the chapter he joins in, he is a 1 range frontliner who isn't even very durable.

2. Linde has WTFhax aura to do major chip damage to enemies with their lolres, even in H5. Even if you decide to have mage Caeda, she won't be at B magic most likely. After, save 1 dura of the Aura and by then you will have the starsphere

3. Linde can switch to priest for staff utility and she doesn't suck due to having good mage bases IIRC.

4. Linde can be an archer to do chip damage and fix her speed problems if she somehow has any.

Oh, and how can you just request a ban on character arguments? I mean, I could then say "I request to allow archer linde again"

[Rodykitty]

1. Although bantu has good chip damage on the chapter he joins in,

No he doesn't. I just proved this isn't true in my past post.

2. Linde has WTFhax aura to do major chip damage to enemies with their lolres, even in H5. Even if you decide to have mage Caeda, she won't be at B magic most likely. After, save 1 dura of the Aura and by then you will have the starsphere

Mage Sheeda not being at B Tomes yet is still better than base level Linde with Aura, then once Sheeda gets the B Tomes Linde is simply outclassed.

But this is vs. Bantu we're talking about. There's no need to discuss Sheeda's obvious win over Linde. I remember Beserker Blader proving to me that Linde can at least do some damage at a distance, and Bantu certainly is never going to do more. It's Bantu's not-superior durability vs. Linde attacking from a distance and getting one shotted.

Edited October 27, 2009 by FE3 Player

[tehnikhil]

Yeah. The only reason I mentioned Caeda was because I didn't want someone to say that Linde wouldn't be needed for her AUra help due to someone thinking that Caeda could get to B magic.

Anyways, I would say that Linde>Bantu because Bantu actually becomes obsolete quickly. He has pretty bad tanking that many do better (IIRC, Castor, Darros, and of course, Sedgar and Wolf). Linde isn't going to stop being 1 shotted, but it isn't like it is that hard to keep her out of danger. Tell me; how many chapters are there where you are overrun with Flyers that everyone may take a hit at some point and time? There are no siege tomes in this game, so she doesn't have to worry about that (Well other than that dark one, but isn't that one somethign liek half hp with crap hit?). She will constantly do 15-18 damage with aura thanks to its heavy MT and bad res on enemies. This allows others to finish enemies off quickly and effectively.

Edit: Oh, and could someone please tell me about why your red/green cav are better than Caeda? I mean, at least for cain, myrmirdons with their swords aren't all that great on HM. Caeda has the wing spear which is a great help with taking care of mobs, especially since she doubles. A lot of character diversity is ruined in this game too due to reclassing. Also, not only that, but Caeda has versatality with being able to switch to a mage who can double, which is especially liked in H5. Sure, she relies on the wep MT, but it is still wonderful damage.

Edited October 27, 2009 by tehnikhil

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Just wondering, why are there any banned suggestions at all? I understand Sedgar since he is a god and no one really wants to hear anything boosting him up right now, but what about everyone else?

Because some suggestions are just too stupid. Myrmidon Elice, Archer Linde, Archer Est, Berserker Etzel... you think any of those suggestions are worth anyone's time?

[tehnikhil]

I can understand the class one, but were people just sick of Rickard's theiving utility argument, so there was a ban to stop people from wasting their time?

[Rodykitty]

Anyways, I would say that Linde>Bantu because Bantu actually becomes obsolete quickly

And Linde is in just as much danger of being obsoleted. Doesn't really make either one worse than the other on its own.

Linde isn't going to stop being 1 shotted, but it isn't like it is that hard to keep her out of danger.

Getting one shotted hurts offensive opportunities because she won't always be able to find an opportunity to attack, and also forces other units to revolve around keeping her from dying.

Edit: Oh, and could someone please tell me about why your red/green cav are better than Caeda? I mean, at least for cain, myrmirdons with their swords aren't all that great on HM

Likely for durability, eventual Horseslayer, and most likely Sniper.

And I changed the Banned Suggestions to be more clear.

Edited October 27, 2009 by FE3 Player

[tehnikhil]

In H5, you aren't spreading out your units. You are finding chokepoints or making walls and formations to stop enemy advance. You shouldn't have to shift around any/much more than you already have to to use Linde. For Bantu, he will probably be a crappy-mediocre wall. When using him though, you are actually hurting your team in some respects. Since he is weakish, he won't be counterattacking for as much as one of your human tanks will.So, it is counterproductive to use him. Linde, on the other hand, is actually doing her job better than some with ranged chip damage. She is packing >20 MT with her Aura, which can majorly hurt some enemies. She does her job as a chip damage person better in some aspects than some guys. Sure she is losing in durability, but Bantu is being outclassed in every aspect by several, who actually have potential. Plus, Linde can help weaken enemies to feed kills, while Bantu can't do that as well as a few others like Sedgar/Wolf

Also, for talking about speed of becoming obsolete,how exactly do we judge it? If we assume good characters are being used, then we can't really talka bout low tier units since they won't be used anyways.

[Rodykitty]

In H5, you aren't spreading out your units. You are finding chokepoints or making walls and formations to stop enemy advance. You shouldn't have to shift around any/much more than you already have to to use Linde.

Bad durability is still bad, and still causes less situations she is able to be in, while a mage that can take a hit can be useful for luring even just one enemy and counter attacking, allowing the front liners to have less to deal with on the enemy phase. We don't want to focus on protecting our units, we want to focus on killing as many enemies as possible in a single turn, because that will ultimately be safety.

For Bantu, he will probably be a crappy-mediocre wall. When using him though, you are actually hurting your team in some respects.

How so? By being an extra damage dealer that's taking a hit nobody else wants to take?

Also, for talking about speed of becoming obsolete,how exactly do we judge it? If we assume good characters are being used, then we can't really talka bout low tier units since they won't be used anyways.

So why are you arguing Linde > Bantu if you think neither are going to be used anyway? This is a test to see if you can figure out my stance on this issue.

[Dat Nick]

I just want to clarify that Linde really needs to be Cleric because she cannot be fighting at all due to how long she gets one shotted. So she doesn't even really have Aura utility until she promotes, at which point she's "just another character", really. Bantu at least serves as a good weakener for a while, he sticks out more during the period he's actually useful.

[Blackbird]

Lets see... regarding Bantu:

Absolutely necessary to recruit Tiki. Tiki is extremely useful against Manaketes (C24, C25), and can be used for some of the 1-turn final chapter cheese strategies. So Bantu, while being lame, also grants opportunity. He does hog a slot for a long time though, if you're doing gaiden chapters.

He hasn't got any useful supports, though. He gets supports from the Manaketes, but that isn't enough to restore usefulness to him late game.

Regarding Linde:

I've seen a lot of people comparing her to Shiida. Shiida's got terrible survivability too, especially as a Mage. 30% HP growth, 0% Def growth, but she seems to get a pass anyway because she has monstrous offense. This implies that, if a unit's offense is good enough, then survivability can be forgiven, to an extent. If we're comparing offense, Linde isn't -that- bad. She's got Aura, so she's doing a big chip of damage. Her base Spd/Spd growth combo is fairly similar to Marich's, so we can assume she'll be doubling eventually, if she gets enough levels. She's got overkill Mag growth, so she'll at least be doing large single hits til then.

Honestly, I think the biggest strike against her is just the late recruitment. She's underleveled, period, so it's hard to recommend her over Marich, Lena, or Shiida, all fine Sage candidates, who are possibly even promoted already by the time you get Linde. This excludes dark horse units like DM!Cord and Ceasar, or even Wendell, who's probably still useful at this point. There are a lot of casters to compete with.

Looking at that list, Marich looks to me like the only person who's got her beat hands down. Lena's durability is similar. Lena's offense is worse, endgame, but it'll take Linde some time to catch up. Lena's got better utility for a long time though, and exclusive rights to Hammerne utility. Shiida's got similar durability and overkilled speed, but Linde has overkilled magic (and will eventually double). So it seems like more of a draw, favoring Shiida, because she has more levels and doubles sooner.

Linde has got useful supports. She gets support from Marth, a given, and Marich, a high tier unit extremely likely to be fielded. There's a very real chance she can stand to receive 20 avo, 20 acc, and 10 crit from supports. Comparing her again to Shiida, Shiida only has one support (Marth) which will be active earlier. Linde's got an edge later in the game, especially when she gets two B supports. Shiida's got a longer period of benefit from support.

She grants support to Jake. Jake is the better of the Ballisticians, he gets support from a ton of characters. This is to his advantage, as accuracy greatly benefits a Ballistician. Jake wants support from someone, and Linde is one option. (support with Sage!Shiida, Sage!Lena, Sage!Linde, Sage!Minerva, Sage!Maria for the most hax Ballistician Avo ever!)

[Rodykitty]

I've seen a lot of people comparing her to Shiida. Shiida's got terrible survivability too, especially as a Mage. 30% HP growth, 0% Def growth, but she seems to get a pass anyway because she has monstrous offense. This implies that, if a unit's offense is good enough, then survivability can be forgiven, to an extent.

Sheeda will actually gain levels. Linde will have huge trouble doing the same.

This means that Sheeda can (and I believe she does which is why she's so high in the first place) gain enough durability in order to survive an attack. If this is false, she's getting dropped.

[Blackbird]

Well, let's put it this way. Shiida usually receives an Angel Robe from me whenever I field her, just to be safe ;). Maybe a Dracoshield, too. I was really under the impression that Shiida's rating was where it was because her offense is brutal; it's definitely not for her durability.

If someone would like to look at the math for this, I'd be appreciative, I'm not too big on it.

Totally agreed on the leveling bit. I don't think Linde is invalidated by her potential, rather that her potential is more difficult to realize than characters like Shiida and Lena.

Curate path isn't terrible for her, though. Getting staff rank in advance of being a Sage isn't wasted work, and her Mag is high enough that she isn't hampered by the reduced growth from Curate. It may even be her better path, because her speed gets a little better. Staff spam nets her some levels pretty rapidly, and it's not hard to protect a healer unit. H5 involves a lot of walling and chokepointing, she can just camp behind the wall and throw heals to catch up. It's true that any generic can pick up a Heal staff and do OK with it, but Linde is at least doing better because she has that overkill Mag growth to increase the healing a bit.

I guess the big argument for me is that I wouldn't let any Sage not named Marich take a hit in this game anyway; so Linde at least has some argument against Sage no. 2 or 3. Their durability is all equally fail in my eyes, so I use them exclusively for utility and offense, and let Marich do it if the situation calls for offense -and- durability.

FEDS rewards several Sages in your party, because they have great offense, and multiple Warps let you shortcut challenging levels.