HeroMystic vs Red Fox of Fire

[HeroMystic]

Wewt.

I'll edit post once I finish up my analysis.

[HeroMystic]

*makes new post instead*

First things first, we must establish the fact that while Gatrie was womanizing and smooching trees with skirts in Part 1, Aran is helping the Dawn Brigade with his cool and balanced stats. Since he comes in 1-3, we can logically say that Nolan, your best tank unit next to Sothe, will probably be level 11.

Aran 7/0/0 Soldier

HP: 24

Str: 10

Mag: 0

Skl: 12

Spd: 10

Lck: 6

Def: 11

Res: 2

Nolan 11/0/0 Fighter

HP: 30

Str: 12

Mag: 0

Skl: 12

Spd: 11

Lck: 8

Def: 9

Res: 4

As you can see, Aran is only slightly behind Nolan when he joins, although Nolan obviously dominates in HP. But this is off set by the fact that Aran has more defense. So what does this all mean? Well, he's your next best tank unit. Since he comes in pretty early of the chapter, he'd be getting level-ups since he laughs at Edward and Leonardo for failing too hard.

At 1-4, Aran lols at Meg's frail defense and HP, and takes her position for being a shield against the Laguz. This rewards some level ups at him especially since they're Laguz. For the sake of accuracy, lets say two level-ups.

For the rest of Part 1, Aran gets competition with Zihark, Jill, Volug, and Nolan. However, Aran still keeps up with them unlike the other failures. At the end of Part 1, with the help of Paragon, Aran should be 20/1 or very close to it (which will be settled just fine with BEXP or a Master Crown).

After all that hard work liberating Daein, Aran gets some well-deserved rest for Part 2. What is Gatrie still doing? Still smooching on trees... or worse.

Part 3, Gatrie finally gets his slow-self into gear. He's a level 10 General and starts with Steel Greatlance and an Iron Lance. Not too shabby, if you ignore how painfully slow he is. His spd is 20, while next lowest is Boyd at 18. Therefore he's going to be having a big problem killing units, especially swordmasters who double him on an almost consistent basis, which is a problem as well seeing as how he's supposed to be your "shield".

3-P, he only shines when he runs headfirst into the fog of war to get his ass kicked. After that the rest of the GMs take down enemies. Rinse and Repeat until the Laguz destroy everything. 3-1 is the same as 3-P pretty much.

Chapters 2, 3, and 4 makes Gatrie cry. Why? Because he's walking too much, not being able to defend his buddies because he has to catch up to them first. And he's STILL not killing due to the fact that he's not double attacking.

Chapter 5 is probably Gatrie's best stage... if you're going to defend. I'm sure people like Mia, Oscar, and Nephenee would love to have those Energy Drops the cowardly boss is holding.

So while Gatrie is failing, Chapter 6 comes back to Aran and his crew, and they gotta take out the laguz. At this point, Aran is 20/1, has an B support with Nolan since they love tanking together, and is getting huge amount of level-ups due to the EXP that the Laguz give. We're talking about five level ups here.

Next chapter, Aran is sittin' back with his best buddy Nolan chillin' while he lols at Gatrie trying to get up front while the swamp terrain slows him down terribly.

Chapters 8-11, Gatrie is still failing, because he still can't keep up, and he's starting to lack those level-ups to keep on par with the others. So not only is he slow in movement, but he's starting to lose that awesome durability that made him viable in the first place. Chapter 12, Aran got that A support with Nolan, and he's kicking butt and taking names, getting his level-ups. At this point, he's around 20/9.

Then Aran pops up again next chapter. Oh lookie, more laguz! Guess that means we can chalk up about three more level ups for Aran since he and Nolan will be tanking along with Taureoneo. Btw, Gatrie appears too at the very last turn. Wow, he's really slow.

So then comes the endgame chapter, where Gatrie is still low-leveled, while the majority are steam-rolling into tier 3. Gatrie is really starting to become a liability, and it shows when Aran wrecks him for invading his turf if he so happens to get to him.

Comes along Part 4, and now we can finally compare stats between Aran and Gatrie.

Aran Halberdier 20/13/0

HP: 38

Str: 26

Mag: 4

Skl: 26

Spd: 19

Lck: 14

Def: 25

Res: 10

Gatrie Lance General --/14/0

HP: 45

Str: 27

Mag: 5

Skl: 19

Spd: 22

Lck: 16

Def: 26

Res: 12

Aran is decimating Gatrie in Skill, while he's on par with him in with Strength and Defense. Gatrie is really only winning in HP. Also, Aran has 3 capped stats while Gatrie only has 2 (although admittedly his lolspeed is pretty close to cap). Very BEXP abusable to make him awesome in all stats, especially in the speed section. Gatrie can do the same thing, but why bother doing that when he's so hard to use in the first place?

That aside, he has to go to a team now. Gatrie will fail hard going to the Silver Army due to the desert mission. The terrain, mages, and the laguz makes the Hawk Army iffy. So he's best to stay with the Greil Army. Aran is more flexible. He can go to Hawk Army or stick with the Silver Army. Either one works since both of those will get him to at least 20/15. However, Hawk Army can get him massive level-ups on the laguz chapter. Too bad Gatrie can't have this option.

Endgame, both Gatrie and Aran have really big competition. Aran has to compete with the likes of Nephenee, Oscar, and a few others for a spot to get to Endgame, and Wishblade. Although he can be going anyway due to his awesome A support with Nolan.

Gatrie has to compete with.... well, the entire cast.

In summary, Gatrie's lack of killing, bad movement, and very poor performance make him a liability later on in the group, and the times when he is good, the rest are strikingly better. Aran on the other hand, is great for Part 1, awesome for Part 3, and is still good for Part 4.

Can I say Aran > Gatrie now?

[Florete]

Gatrie is a womanizer, that is correct. He's a pretty likable guy. Charming, handsome, an all around gentleman. Aran is...uh...wait, does this guy even have a personality? He's a standard generic soldier. I've heard of people killing him on accident because they thought he was a generic enemy. Obviously, Gatrie's existing personality alone makes him a better character than Aran.

On to the less important arguments. (Since we all know personality defines a character, but I feel I should point these thigns out as well)

As you can see, Aran is only slightly behind Nolan when he joins, although Nolan obviously dominates in HP. But this is off set by the fact that Aran has more defense. So what does this all mean? Well, he's your next best tank unit. Since he comes in pretty early of the chapter, he'd be getting level-ups since he laughs at Edward and Leonardo for failing too hard.

I can't really disagree much with this. The thing is, he's still being 2-rounded by fighters and 3-rounded by everything else, so his durability, though better than the likes of Edward, Leonardo, etc., is nothing special since he'll still rely on Laura to heal him.

Might I also mention that Aran's accuracy is fairly low to start. With an Iron Lance and at neutral biorythm, he has 115 hit while enemies are sporting 25-30 avoid. He'll often see <80% hit rates, especially if he tries hitting anything with a Javelin or anything in the multitude of terrain.

Gatrie, on the other hand and in his joining chapter, is being 4-rounded by mages and 5-rounded by physical enemies, at worst. Most physical enemies do even less. On joining, Gatrie has the best durability on his team. Aran doesn't have that status.

At 1-4, Aran lols at Meg's frail defense and HP, and takes her position for being a shield against the Laguz. This rewards some level ups at him especially since they're Laguz. For the sake of accuracy, lets say two level-ups.

What's wrong with this? The fact is, Aran is being two-rounded by everything since the Cats all double him. Because of his low Luck, they even have a slight chance of landing a critical on him. Edward can shield here just as well because he is also being two-rounded. Actually, Edward can shield better because Cats don't double him or crit him, but he's still only being two-rounded, he doubled, and he hits more often. Don't even go to me with Nolan and Sothe here.

For the rest of Part 1, Aran gets competition with Zihark, Jill, Volug, and Nolan. However, Aran still keeps up with them unlike the other failures. At the end of Part 1, with the help of Paragon, Aran should be 20/1 or very close to it (which will be settled just fine with BEXP or a Master Crown).

Aran can't use Paragon until he promotes, he lacks the capacity. And since he never doubled while those other 4 at least occasionally do, I can't see him keeping up in level. I can barely see him promoting by 1-E. More like level 17, and even that's fairly generous considering the massive competition that is Nolan, Sothe, Volug, Zihark, Jill, Tauroneo, Tormod, Muarim, Vika, Nailah, and the BK, all doing better than him when they're around.

Part 3, Gatrie finally gets his slow-self into gear. He's a level 10 General and starts with Steel Greatlance and an Iron Lance. Not too shabby, if you ignore how painfully slow he is. His spd is 20, while next lowest is Boyd at 18. Therefore he's going to be having a big problem killing units, especially swordmasters who double him on an almost consistent basis, which is a problem as well seeing as how he's supposed to be your "shield".

Items can be traded, you know. Currently, Gatrie has access to the Stl Greatlance and Iron Lance, and also a Short Spear, Steel Lance, Steel Poleax, Short Axe, Killer Axe, Steel Axe, and Hand Axe. I already pointed out his amazing durability, and because of that he can freely use his full movement every turn without worry, something most characters can't do, so he's got no problems keeping up with the team.

Oh, and how are 22-23 AS Swordmasters doubling a 20 AS unit? But who cares, they do very little damage to him anyway. By the way, you only mentioned Boyd having lower AS, but so do Mist, Rhys, Soren, and Rolf. Gatrie might not double anything yet, but he's not taking much damage and he puts out a lot of damage with his 25 strength and weapon choices. That's tied for highest damage output per hit with Titania only.

3-1 is the same as 3-P pretty much.

3-1 is much, much easier on him because enemies end up coming from all sides, making him invaluable no matter where he goes. I don't know how you can say that's the "same." In fact, there are enemies even closer starting on this one as well.

Chapters 2, 3, and 4 makes Gatrie cry. Why? Because he's walking too much, not being able to defend his buddies because he has to catch up to them first. And he's STILL not killing due to the fact that he's not double attacking.

3-2 he's fine. He can head east and do great handling the many Paladin reinforcements, as well as the Dragonmasters. No problems here.

3-3 I'll give to you. His lower movement, coupled with the fact that this chapter will generally have you moving fast, does hurt him. However, he can let himself stay behind to visit tents and burn supplies, allowing everyone else to use their full movement. Not much of an advantage, but the point is that he isn't left in the dust doing nothing.

3-4 is better. He still has no problems using his full movement because he takes very little damage, and he can climb up the ledges, although slower than most, better than the horses inability to.

Chapter 5 is probably Gatrie's best stage... if you're going to defend. I'm sure people like Mia, Oscar, and Nephenee would love to have those Energy Drops the cowardly boss is holding.

And Gatrie is helping to get that. He's still your most durable unit. Let's see how he is at this point. Level 14 sounds appropriate. (An average of slightly less than 1 level per map so far):

HP: 45 (capped)

Str: 27 (Capped)

Mag: 5.2

Skl: 19.8

Spd: 22.4

Luck: 16.2

Def: 26.4

Res: 12.4

He's already got good BEXP potential, and Speed is .6 from capping itself. Let's compare him to another durable unit, Haar. I'll put him at level 15.

HP: 47.2

Str: 25.8

Mag: 2.2

Skl: 26 (capped)

Spd: 21.2

Luck: 14.8

Def: 25.6

Res: 7.8

Check it out. Gatrie has ~1 defense, ~1 Speed, ~1 Luck, 4-5 resistance, and ~1 strength over our otherwise most durable unit. All Haar wins is Skill while neither should have a tough time hitting things, and HP by a little, and this is even with Haar at a higher level! May I also add the fact that Haar is about to cap his defense while Gatrie's goes up to 30, and since Gatrie always has higher Res, Gatrie is always more durable, as well as faster and nearly just as strong. I could compare him to others, but seeing as he's already competing with the amazing Haar, I think this is good enough. These two also use the same weapons, and most of the enemies are chumps, some of which he doubles. In fact, in one more level, Gatrie is doubling about half the enemies in the map, making him even more superior than Haar offensively and when of your best offensive and defensive units.

Also note that that is all without supports. Factoring in his Ike support that he can get as I am about to explain in the next point, he can have +1 defense, +5 hit, and +15 avoid with a B support.

So while Gatrie is failing, Chapter 6 comes back to Aran and his crew, and they gotta take out the laguz. At this point, Aran is 20/1, has an B support with Nolan since they love tanking together, and is getting huge amount of level-ups due to the EXP that the Laguz give. We're talking about five level ups here.

I'll pretend I didn't see the "Gatrie failing" part. What ensures Aran to get an earth support? Micaiah, Edward, Nolan, Laura, Volug, Jill, and Zihark want earth partners just as much, as well as anyone else being used. In fact, they all make better use of it because they all have higher avoid so they can make much better use of the bonus. If Aran gets an earth support, so does Gatrie as we saw in my last point.

Also, Aran is not 20/1 yet. He doubled 0 enemies in part 1 and so is probably level 17-18. I'll be nice and give him level 18. With his 14 AS and 19 defense, Cats double him for 8 X 2 = 16 damage per round, at minimum. A lot of Cats are stronger than that. He's being two-rounded by everything. Hell, he's even being one-rounded by the 18 AS, 41 MT Tigers at 22 X 2 = 44 damage (He has 30 HP). Fail.

He's not dodging anything either. I'll be nice and give him a B support with Nolan for +1 defense and +20 avoid. He's now facing a minimum of 86% displayed hit, usually higher, while still being 2-rounded by almost everything. The support doesn't even help him.

Next chapter, Aran is sittin' back with his best buddy Nolan chillin' while he lols at Gatrie trying to get up front while the swamp terrain slows him down terribly.

Once again, Gatrie can still do something here. Not as good as most, but better than any horse-mounted unit. Regardless, I admit that this isn't a great chapter for him, but it's worse for Aran, who is essentially doing nothing.

Chapters 8-11, Gatrie is still failing, because he still can't keep up, and he's starting to lack those level-ups to keep on par with the others. So not only is he slow in movement, but he's starting to lose that awesome durability that made him viable in the first place. Chapter 12, Aran got that A support with Nolan, and he's kicking butt and taking names, getting his level-ups. At this point, he's around 20/9.

I don't know where the "not keeping up" logic comes from when you talk about a unit who can safely use his full movement on every turn. As a result, his levels haven't been lacking at all and he's still one of the better units on the team.

Lol, 20/9? No way. Only Sothe can hope to hit that level by now, and that's a bit of a longshot. Being nice to Aran, I'll give him 20/3. He's a bit better now because Beorc aren't as strong as laguz and he doesn't get doubled by everything, but he's still facing >80 hit rates regardless and is normally 2-4 rounded. In the face of units like Sothe, Zihark, Volug, and Jill, he's kind of failing.

Then Aran pops up again next chapter. Oh lookie, more laguz! Guess that means we can chalk up about three more level ups for Aran since he and Nolan will be tanking along with Taureoneo. Btw, Gatrie appears too at the very last turn. Wow, he's really slow.

Guess that means we can be 2-rounded by everything again without dodging a thing is more like it!

So then comes the endgame chapter, where Gatrie is still low-leveled, while the majority are steam-rolling into tier 3. Gatrie is really starting to become a liability, and it shows when Aran wrecks him for invading his turf if he so happens to get to him.

On the contrary, I think given enough evidence to show that Gatrie is steam-rolling into tier 3 with everyone else. In fact, he can even be crowned a bit early on when his Speed caps. It won't really hurt him at all.

Comes along Part 4, and now we can finally compare stats between Aran and Gatrie.

4 levels for Gatrie in 11 maps? Terribly inaccurate. Let's compare how they'll really be:

Aran - 20/10/--

HP: 37

Str: 26

Mag: 4.2

Skl: 26

Spd: 18.7

Luck: 13.7

Def: 25

Res: 9.5

Gatrie - --/20/1 or --/15/4

HP: 49 - 50.5

Str: 29 - 30.8

Mag: 9.5 - 9.4

Skl: 24.5 - 23.85

Spd: 25 - 26.8

Luck: 18 - 17.4

Def: 32 - 30.8

Res: 18.5 - 17.8

Gatrie is owning him in...every stat but Skill, and by a significant amount everywhere. Massive durability lead with +12-14 HP, +6-7 Speed, +3-4 Luck, +6-7 Def, and +9-11 Res. Better offensively with +3-5 Strength (as well as stronger weapons), +6-7 AS, and similar base hit (Though still a couple points in Gatrie's favor). The early promotion helped in more cases than it hurt as well, and Gatrie can use any weapon type available instead of being locked to Lances.

That aside, he has to go to a team now. Gatrie will fail hard going to the Silver Army due to the desert mission. The terrain, mages, and the laguz makes the Hawk Army iffy. So he's best to stay with the Greil Army. Aran is more flexible. He can go to Hawk Army or stick with the Silver Army. Either one works since both of those will get him to at least 20/15. However, Hawk Army can get him massive level-ups on the laguz chapter. Too bad Gatrie can't have this option.

Gatrie can go to any team just as easily as Aran. Aran gets hindered by terrain too, you know. It's a bit worse for Gatrie, but not by much, so team choice isn't an advantage for either.

Endgame, both Gatrie and Aran have really big competition. Aran has to compete with the likes of Nephenee, Oscar, and a few others for a spot to get to Endgame, and Wishblade. Although he can be going anyway due to his awesome A support with Nolan.

Gatrie has to compete with.... well, the entire cast.

Aran has much tougher competition for an endgame slot than Gatrie due to terrible Speed and both mastering in Lances anyway. Because of superior caps, weapons, and growths, Gatrie is much, much more likely to be taken to endgame. All Aran has is a slightly higher Mastery skill activation, but even that is offset by the fact that he doesn't double and Gatrie does, so Aran loses there as well.

Can I say Aran > Gatrie now?

No. No, you cannot. Gatrie >>> Aran.

[HeroMystic]

Gatrie is a womanizer, that is correct. He's a pretty likable guy. Charming, handsome, an all around gentleman. Aran is...uh...wait, does this guy even have a personality? He's a standard generic soldier. I've heard of people killing him on accident because they thought he was a generic enemy. Obviously, Gatrie's existing personality alone makes him a better character than Aran.

Aran is just a quiet and helpful guy. He sits back and speaks up when needed, nothing like the generic soldier. He even helps his clumsy childhood friend Laura with her equipment. Courageous, Just and friendly are three very good qualities for a soldier.

I can't really disagree much with this. The thing is, he's still being 2-rounded by fighters and 3-rounded by everything else, so his durability, though better than the likes of Edward, Leonardo, etc., is nothing special since he'll still rely on Laura to heal him.

While this is true, this obviously isn't just directed towards him. Nolan, Jill, and Edward also has this problem.

Might I also mention that Aran's accuracy is fairly low to start. With an Iron Lance and at neutral biorythm, he has 115 hit while enemies are sporting 25-30 avoid. He'll often see <80% hit rates, especially if he tries hitting anything with a Javelin or anything in the multitude of terrain.

Aran's Hit%(Iron Lance, Base stats): 115

Nolan's Hit%(Iron Axe, Level 11): 112

Jill's Hit%(Iron Axe, Base stats): 112

This is hardly a breaking disadvantage towards him when your top DB units also have this problem, even worse actually. Besides, this is easily fixed by giving him a forged weapon.

Gatrie, on the other hand and in his joining chapter, is being 4-rounded by mages and 5-rounded by physical enemies, at worst. Most physical enemies do even less. On joining, Gatrie has the best durability on his team. Aran doesn't have that status.

I'll give Gatrie this, as I wasn't debating against this.

Just keep in mind that you said "On joining".

What's wrong with this? The fact is, Aran is being two-rounded by everything since the Cats all double him. Because of his low Luck, they even have a slight chance of landing a critical on him. Edward can shield here just as well because he is also being two-rounded. Actually, Edward can shield better because Cats don't double him or crit him, but he's still only being two-rounded, he doubled, and he hits more often. Don't even go to me with Nolan and Sothe here.

Firstly, Aran is still the better shield. I won't be throwing in calculations, but even though Aran gets doubled by Cats, his HP and defense allows him to take it as long as he doesn't stupidly attack on his round (Leonardo or Illyana will be doing that for him), and heals with a vulnerably instead. Also, I like how you don't mention tigers, as those just absolutely pulverize anything that Edward has for tanking (besides hoping for a dodge, which is silly). He gets one-shotted by a few tigers with the occasional chance of getting 2-shotted by a Tiger with 1 weaker Atk.

Lets not forget there are more Tigers than cats this chapter too.

Aran can't use Paragon until he promotes, he lacks the capacity.

My mistake.

And since he never doubled while those other 4 at least occasionally do, I can't see him keeping up in level. I can barely see him promoting by 1-E. More like level 17, and even that's fairly generous considering the massive competition that is Nolan, Sothe, Volug, Zihark, Jill, Tauroneo, Tormod, Muarim, Vika, Nailah, and the BK, all doing better than him when they're around.

It's very possible. Nolan and Aran will be having their support going, which gives him extra avoid and defense, so he's still in the frontlines. Jill will be doing her hit-and-run tactics, Tormod/Muarim/Vika only shine for one chapter (the one they join in). Tauroneo only HAS one chapter, and Nailah/BK gets to destroy everything for 1-E, which is bad because if they do so, then NONE of the DB gets to be ready for 3-6.

I will agree, however, that since I was counting on Paragon, 20/1 seems slightly out of reach. So lets stick with Level 17. It doesn't really matter anyway since he can BEXP or use a Master Crown. Level 18 is actually a great time to use a Master Crown anyway.

Items can be traded, you know. Currently, Gatrie has access to the Stl Greatlance and Iron Lance, and also a Short Spear, Steel Lance, Steel Poleax, Short Axe, Killer Axe, Steel Axe, and Hand Axe. I already pointed out his amazing durability, and because of that he can freely use his full movement every turn without worry, something most characters can't do, so he's got no problems keeping up with the team.

The CRK would like their weapons back so they won't suck for 3-9.

Oh, and how are 22-23 AS Swordmasters doubling a 20 AS unit? But who cares, they do very little damage to him anyway. By the way, you only mentioned Boyd having lower AS, but so do Mist, Rhys, Soren, and Rolf. Gatrie might not double anything yet, but he's not taking much damage and he puts out a lot of damage with his 25 strength and weapon choices. That's tied for highest damage output per hit with Titania only.

Swordmasters start getting 24 AS at 3-3, just for reference.

I should've been more precise. I only mentioned Boyd because Mist/Rhys/Soren/Rolf are not frontline units, while Boyd and Gatrie are. Besides that point, Gatrie still isn't killing anything with just one hit, meaning the enemy is still out there while he did his attack on Enemy Phase. Player Phase however, the rest of the GMs come up and dish out killings while Gatrie has to walk up ahead to provoke more enemies.

3-1 is much, much easier on him because enemies end up coming from all sides, making him invaluable no matter where he goes. I don't know how you can say that's the "same." In fact, there are enemies even closer starting on this one as well.

It's "the same" because he'll only be taking one side. Obviously he can't bravely jump from one side of the army to the other. And since there is a turn limit, we obviously can't wait for Gatrie to protect everyone. In fact, if anything it's worse due to the lack of linearity. Enemies attacking his comrades = Gatrie not doing his job.

3-2 he's fine. He can head east and do great handling the many Paladin reinforcements, as well as the Dragonmasters. No problems here.

So can Brom/Nephenee. Haar, Titania, and Oscar can do it as well, and quite in fact do a better job at it since they can go back to Ike and company rather quickly. Heck, the army can just let the reinforcements come to them and demolish them as they come. Gatrie will still be a shield, but like I said before, he still won't be killing.

3-3 I'll give to you. His lower movement, coupled with the fact that this chapter will generally have you moving fast, does hurt him. However, he can let himself stay behind to visit tents and burn supplies, allowing everyone else to use their full movement. Not much of an advantage, but the point is that he isn't left in the dust doing nothing.

I'll give "visiting tents" to him despite the fact there are better units for the job (Heather), but Oscar/Titania/Haar will be the ones burning supplies due to Canto.

3-4 is better. He still has no problems using his full movement because he takes very little damage, and he can climb up the ledges, although slower than most, better than the horses inability to.

At this point, Earth supporters + Haar start to make Gatrie's shield dull. Ike and Haar makes quicker work than Gatrie does going up those cliffs, and Oscar taking the long road with his supporter (Mia is a great choice), along with Ranulf, makes taking on that road much faster than it would waiting for Gatrie.

And Gatrie is helping to get that. He's still your most durable unit. Let's see how he is at this point. Level 14 sounds appropriate. (An average of slightly less than 1 level per map so far):

HP: 45 (capped)

Str: 27 (Capped)

Mag: 5.2

Skl: 19.8

Spd: 22.4

Luck: 16.2

Def: 26.4

Res: 12.4

Considering the fact that Gatrie isn't going to be used much 3-3, and in 3-4, and won't be killing on a regular basis, level 12 is much more appropriate. Laying out stats for a level 12 is meh since he'll probably get level 13 on this chapter, which would only leave STR uncapped, and spd/def/lck down by 1.

Check it out. Gatrie has ~1 defense, ~1 Speed, ~1 Luck, 4-5 resistance, and ~1 strength over our otherwise most durable unit. All Haar wins is Skill while neither should have a tough time hitting things, and HP by a little, and this is even with Haar at a higher level! May I also add the fact that Haar is about to cap his defense while Gatrie's goes up to 30, and since Gatrie always has higher Res, Gatrie is always more durable, as well as faster and nearly just as strong. I could compare him to others, but seeing as he's already competing with the amazing Haar, I think this is good enough.

At level 13, strength/defense/speed/luck will be the same. Resistance, is obviously a win.

These two also use the same weapons, and most of the enemies are chumps, some of which he doubles. In fact, in one more level, Gatrie is doubling about half the enemies in the map, making him even more superior than Haar offensively and when of your best offensive and defensive units.

Not since Gatrie has to hit for level 14 instead of level 15. And you're still not factoring in the fact that Ike and his support unit (that won't be Gatrie) will be better tank units since they kill faster and better. Gatrie will, at best, be fighting those Generals on the right making use of his strength. His AS is actually considered here and will be doubling. However, Gatrie won't be helping much with getting those energy drops because he is still too slow to keep up. Ike/Haar/The Paladins/Mia/Heather/Reyson will be heading out pushing through the units to get to Lobromso while Gatrie/Shinon/Rolf/Soren/Nephenee will be staying back protecting the spot from reinforcements.

Also note that that is all without supports. Factoring in his Ike support that he can get as I am about to explain in the next point, he can have +1 defense, +5 hit, and +15 avoid with a B support.

I'll be getting to this point, right about....

I'll pretend I didn't see the "Gatrie failing" part. What ensures Aran to get an earth support? Micaiah, Edward, Nolan, Laura, Volug, Jill, and Zihark want earth partners just as much, as well as anyone else being used. In fact, they all make better use of it because they all have higher avoid so they can make much better use of the bonus. If Aran gets an earth support, so does Gatrie as we saw in my last point.

Now.

Micaiah already has Sothe, so I dunno why you brought her up. Edward is fail, and Laura will get owned whether she gets Earth Affinity or not, which makes it useless on her. Volug can support Zihark or Nolan, and it doesn't matter who gets it since all three of them has Earth Affinity, while the Greil Mercenaries only has two. But since Aran and Nolan are the ones tanking here, it's best if they support each other.

Jill getting supported won't matter much since she won't be frontlining and making the best out of her MOV. Therefore she won't be getting attacked during the enemy phase.

Also, Gatrie doesn't care about Avoid. It's absolutely silly to give Earth Affinity to him since he, as you call it, the "most durable unit". Ike and Oscar's affinities will be going to people who needs them, especially the ones who actually do rely on avoiding, like Mia and Nephenee. Heck, Titania makes a better support unit to Ike than Gatrie does. At least those two can ransack levels together at a decent pace while Gatrie is forced to stay back.

What Gatrie cares most about is Defense and quite possibly Atk. He'll also be needing a unit that'll help him take down other units. The best candidates for that are Shinon, Soren, and Ranulf. Soren can give squat about atk and accuracy. He wants AVO. Ranulf is nice, but his HP and avoid already makes him a good unit that doesn't need defense. Shinon can't attack (without a crossbow) on Enemy Phase, but has a large amount of atk and can easily kill enemies while Gatrie is backing him up picking off weakened enemies that Shinon doesn't manage to kill. Also, Shinon's Thunder affinity works very well with Gatrie's Light Affinity. He even gets avoid on the side. And lets not forget the +5% crit he gains due to bond, which slightly makes up for the lack of +atk. Although it's not as good, it's something.

Also, Aran is not 20/1 yet. He doubled 0 enemies in part 1 and so is probably level 17-18. I'll be nice and give him level 18. With his 14 AS and 19 defense, Cats double him for 8 X 2 = 16 damage per round, at minimum. A lot of Cats are stronger than that. He's being two-rounded by everything. Hell, he's even being one-rounded by the 18 AS, 41 MT Tigers at 22 X 2 = 44 damage (He has 30 HP). Fail.

No need to be generous. Level 17 is fine. He can use BEXP to hit level 18 (in which his skill caps, +2 stats) and then he can use a Master Crown.

Aran 18/1/

HP: 31.5

Str: 19.25

Mag: 3.3

Skl: 21

Spd: 14.55

Lck: 9.85

Def: 19.7

Res: 6.75

While we're at it, lets give Aran that Resolve skill. Nolan will be too busy with Crossbow/Beastfoe combo. Sothe will have beastkiller and Paragon and an A support with Micaiah to let him fairly dodge well. Zihark has a B support with Volug and will be using Edward's Wrath, and Volug is fine just with his transformed state.

Aran w/ Resolve = 21 Spd, 71 Avoid (with support accounted for). He'll be seeing >=70% of Hit on all the enemies, and Cats/Tigers will not be doubling him if he happens to be hit. In fact, he'll be doubling Tigers.

He's not dodging anything either. I'll be nice and give him a B support with Nolan for +1 defense and +20 avoid. He's now facing a minimum of 86% displayed hit, usually higher, while still being 2-rounded by almost everything. The support doesn't even help him.

Above point disproves that whenever he is below half HP, which will majority of the time will be the case.

Once again, Gatrie can still do something here. Not as good as most, but better than any horse-mounted unit. Regardless, I admit that this isn't a great chapter for him, but it's worse for Aran, who is essentially doing nothing.

Aran is defending his turf that Gatrie can't get to.

I don't know where the "not keeping up" logic comes from when you talk about a unit who can safely use his full movement on every turn. As a result, his levels haven't been lacking at all and he's still one of the better units on the team.

Because Gatrie starts becoming less viable when the ones who have A support with Earth affinity are the ones who can safely move forward every turn, using their 7-8-9 MOV compared to Gatrie's 6 MOV. Also, Canto > Gatrie in 3-8.

Lol, 20/9? No way. Only Sothe can hope to hit that level by now, and that's a bit of a longshot. Being nice to Aran, I'll give him 20/3.

As much as you like to be nice, Aran is doing just fine without it. 18/9 is perfectly viable with what I've stated.

He's a bit better now because Beorc aren't as strong as laguz and he doesn't get doubled by everything, but he's still facing >80 hit rates regardless and is normally 2-4 rounded. In the face of units like Sothe, Zihark, Volug, and Jill, he's kind of failing.

Try <=70 Hit rates, if not lower. 2-3 rounded is silly. 4-5 sounds more like it.

Guess that means we can be 2-rounded by everything again without dodging a thing is more like it!

Nope.

On the contrary, I think given enough evidence to show that Gatrie is steam-rolling into tier 3 with everyone else. In fact, he can even be crowned a bit early on when his Speed caps. It won't really hurt him at all.

4 levels for Gatrie in 11 maps? Terribly inaccurate. Let's compare how they'll really be:

With everyone else? Not at all. Not with all the Earth Affinity people doing the job for him. While I do admit I slightly underestimated him, he will be nowhere at --/20 by the time Part 3 Endgame comes. So your best bet is to stick with crowning Gatrie early, which actually makes him more viable since he can Luna stuff, but he still has 6 MOV and is therefore still not fighting as much as Ike and the others.

I won't bother with posting stats, but Aran will STILL be Level 13 by the time he gets there, with three capped stats, and very BEXP abusable. Gatrie without a crown will make him only slightly above Aran, not owning him. Gatrie with a Crown (--/15/2 sounds more like it however) makes him legitimately better, but only for Endgame.

Gatrie can go to any team just as easily as Aran. Aran gets hindered by terrain too, you know. It's a bit worse for Gatrie, but not by much, so team choice isn't an advantage for either.

The desert mission destroys any chance of Gatrie being Mr. Invincible, while Aran can still move just as much as the others. You can even crown Aran at that time to give him stat boost to allow him to wreck more stuff.

Aran has much tougher competition for an endgame slot than Gatrie due to terrible Speed and both mastering in Lances anyway. Because of superior caps, weapons, and growths, Gatrie is much, much more likely to be taken to endgame. All Aran has is a slightly higher Mastery skill activation, but even that is offset by the fact that he doesn't double and Gatrie does, so Aran loses there as well.

This is quite untrue and in fact quite shrouded as Aran will have a good amount of spd due to BEXP abuse. Therefore going by stat averages will be quite poor to compare with. Aran can and will be doubling in Endgame. I have already agreed however that Gatrie will have an overall better performance at Endgame, but not by much.

No. No, you cannot. Gatrie >>> Aran.

This is false, considering the fact that Aran has been keeping up with the team, tanking many enemies, and has been steadily helping his team from Part 1 to Part 4, and Part 4 is the only time when Gatrie tops Aran, which starts at Endgame, no sooner.

Your move. :)

Edited January 19, 2009 by HeroMystic

[Florete]

Aran is just a quiet and helpful guy. He sits back and speaks up when needed, nothing like the generic soldier. He even helps his clumsy childhood friend Laura with her equipment. Courageous, Just and friendly are three very good qualities for a soldier.

All I got from him was "I'm here, hi" and nothing else. How do you know he's courageous, just, and friendly when he doesn't talk?

While this is true, this obviously isn't just directed towards him. Nolan, Jill, and Edward also has this problem.

But Jill's not here yet, and Nolan has HP to back him up.

Just keep in mind that you said "On joining".

Why would I need anything else? A great start is a big advantage.

Firstly, Aran is still the better shield. I won't be throwing in calculations, but even though Aran gets doubled by Cats, his HP and defense allows him to take it as long as he doesn't stupidly attack on his round (Leonardo or Illyana will be doing that for him), and heals with a vulnerably instead.

In other words, he isn't getting any kills and is using up resources instead.

Also, I like how you don't mention tigers, as those just absolutely pulverize anything that Edward has for tanking (besides hoping for a dodge, which is silly). He gets one-shotted by a few tigers with the occasional chance of getting 2-shotted by a Tiger with 1 weaker Atk.

That's incorrect. Even if Edward only makes it to level 7, and generously rounding 21.55 HP down to 21, he takes 20 damage at max, leaving him with 1 health, and that's from the strongest tigers. Edward could easily be level 8 or 9 by now, though, which could give him another possible point in Defense and 2 more in HP, as well as a support that'll give him some defense.

It's very possible. Nolan and Aran will be having their support going, which gives him extra avoid and defense, so he's still in the frontlines.

Once again, I don't see how Aran is entitled to an Earth support when others (Edward, Micaiah, Volug, Zihark, Laura, Jill, Sothe) make much better use of it. Yes, Micaiah and Sothe already have a support going, but an Earth support is better than their already existing one and they both make better use of the avoid.

Jill will be doing her hit-and-run tactics, Tormod/Muarim/Vika only shine for one chapter (the one they join in). Tauroneo only HAS one chapter, and Nailah/BK gets to destroy everything for 1-E, which is bad because if they do so, then NONE of the DB gets to be ready for 3-6.

That's still quite a lot of competition regardless. And a wtf at Tormod and Muarim only shining for one chapter. Muarim is like Nailah with transformation and an inability to double Jarod (Wow, one enemy), and Tormod can use Thunder magic to murder 1-8's Dracoknights.

I will agree, however, that since I was counting on Paragon, 20/1 seems slightly out of reach. So lets stick with Level 17. It doesn't really matter anyway since he can BEXP or use a Master Crown. Level 18 is actually a great time to use a Master Crown anyway.

The DB's BEXP is very limited, so Aran isn't guaranteed to get much, if any. But it won't really help him anyway. He doesn't cap much at first tier.

The CRK would like their weapons back so they won't suck for 3-9.

...Huh? What I said had nothing to do with the CRK's. I listed all the weapons the GM's come with that Gatrie can use.

Swordmasters start getting 24 AS at 3-3, just for reference.

By then, Gatrie will have gotten some levels and his Speed will be fine. Also, they'll still be close to just clinking him.

Besides that point, Gatrie still isn't killing anything with just one hit, meaning the enemy is still out there while he did his attack on Enemy Phase.

Only Ike and possibly Titania and Shinon are one-rounding anything right now because they are the ones that reliably double. 2-rounding is still very good, and that's what Gatrie is doing. It's the better than most of the team.

Player Phase however, the rest of the GMs come up and dish out killings while Gatrie has to walk up ahead to provoke more enemies.

So you just turned around your previous argument about Gatrie not keeping up by saying that he runs ahead? Okay. It's not stopping him from getting experience when he's in enemy territory.

It's "the same" because he'll only be taking one side. Obviously he can't bravely jump from one side of the army to the other.

Who is "bravely jumping from one side of the army to the other" other than possibly Titania or Oscar? Gatrie is fighting enemies regardless of where he is on the map and doing a good job of it, too.

And since there is a turn limit, we obviously can't wait for Gatrie to protect everyone. In fact, if anything it's worse due to the lack of linearity. Enemies attacking his comrades = Gatrie not doing his job.

Gatrie isn't the only tank. He's the best for it, but it's not like he's the only one. I think you're really overestimating one less move, and I can add that he shares that with Soren and Rhys. Then there's the fact that he has range while someone like Ike or Mia don't and he's on a similar level.

So can Brom/Nephenee. Haar, Titania, and Oscar can do it as well, and quite in fact do a better job at it since they can go back to Ike and company rather quickly.

The one with the best defense is the best man for the job against 5 enemy Paladins, and that is Gatrie. As for getting back to Ike, he can just head straight south if Ike and co. haven't finished up already anyway.

Heck, the army can just let the reinforcements come to them and demolish them as they come. Gatrie will still be a shield, but like I said before, he still won't be killing.

Because he's a wall means he isn't entitled to kills? That makes no sense. If anything, it means he gets more kills because he sees the most enemy phase action of anyone, not to mention getting experience just for fighting.

I'll give "visiting tents" to him despite the fact there are better units for the job (Heather),

Heather is stealing from the Senators and that one other Bishop. No time to hang around visiting tents.

At this point, Earth supporters + Haar start to make Gatrie's shield dull.

Like Gatrie, remember? If Aran was entitled to an Earth support, so is Gatrie. At least Gatrie makes use of it. And Gatrie's defense is consistently better than Haar's anyway.

Ike and Haar makes quicker work than Gatrie does going up those cliffs, and Oscar taking the long road with his supporter (Mia is a great choice), along with Ranulf, makes taking on that road much faster than it would waiting for Gatrie.

Ike and Haar I'll give you, but Oscar can't even make it to the top portion of the map. Gatrie might not be awesome here, but he can do more than a horse.

Considering the fact that Gatrie isn't going to be used much 3-3, and in 3-4, and won't be killing on a regular basis, level 12 is much more appropriate. Laying out stats for a level 12 is meh since he'll probably get level 13 on this chapter, which would only leave STR uncapped, and spd/def/lck down by 1.

I disagree. He may have been slow for the last two chapters, but that didn't stop him from getting kills. 3-3 has reinforcements that come even if Gatrie stays back, 3-4 he's a bit slow but he still got something in since he can always use is full move, and he got a good deal of experience from 3-P, 3-1, and 3-2. Level 14 is very appropriate.

At level 13, strength/defense/speed/luck will be the same. Resistance, is obviously a win.

So even two levels lower he's on par in everything and winning in another. That's pretty dang good.

And you're still not factoring in the fact that Ike and his support unit (that won't be Gatrie) will be better tank units since they kill faster and better.

Once again, if Aran is entitled to an earth support, so is Gatrie. Besides, Gatrie is doubling fairly reliably by now and dodging quite often, yet not taking much, if any, damage on getting hit. How is anyone a better tank than that?

Gatrie will, at best, be fighting those Generals on the right making use of his strength. His AS is actually considered here and will be doubling. However, Gatrie won't be helping much with getting those energy drops because he is still too slow to keep up. Ike/Haar/The Paladins/Mia/Heather/Reyson will be heading out pushing through the units to get to Lobromso while Gatrie/Shinon/Rolf/Soren/Nephenee will be staying back protecting the spot from reinforcements.

If that's what he does, there is nothing wrong with that. It means he's flexible. He's good wherever he goes. This way, he's killing enemies most of your guys can't. Not everyone is going to charge to get the Energy Drop. It's not like it's a point against him.

Micaiah already has Sothe, so I dunno why you brought her up. Edward is fail, and Laura will get owned whether she gets Earth Affinity or not, which makes it useless on her. Volug can support Zihark or Nolan, and it doesn't matter who gets it since all three of them has Earth Affinity, while the Greil Mercenaries only has two. But since Aran and Nolan are the ones tanking here, it's best if they support each other.

Covered Micaiah and Sothe.

Edward is decent by the time part 3 comes around for anyone who used him, and he makes much better use of the avoid since he actually can dodge.

Laura won't get owned since she got Sealed early and has great Speed, meaning she uses the avoid better as well.

Zihark and Nolan should probably support.

Volug should go with Jill because they have similar move.

That said, anyone else is more entitled to an Earth partner than Aran, since I already showed in my last post that it actually doesn't help him at all.

Jill getting supported won't matter much since she won't be frontlining and making the best out of her MOV. Therefore she won't be getting attacked during the enemy phase.

That might be the case in 3-6, but only there, and possibly not anyway. Since she's already built up a support, it's probably best for her to stick back so she can help her partner as well as get help herself.

Also, Gatrie doesn't care about Avoid. It's absolutely silly to give Earth Affinity to him since he, as you call it, the "most durable unit".

The thing is, Gatrie can avoid, which is more than I can say for Aran, which is why Aran is not entitled to an earth support. Adding avoid helps Gatrie's durability, but it doesn't for Aran because he's getting hit anyway. Either both get an Earth partner or neither do.

Gatrie supports Shinon

Okay. In that case, Aran support Laura. It's probably his fastest support anyway.

In any case, Gatrie can now get +3 defense, +8 hit, and +8 avoid. That's good enough, really.

While we're at it, lets give Aran that Resolve skill. Nolan will be too busy with Crossbow/Beastfoe combo. Sothe will have beastkiller and Paragon and an A support with Micaiah to let him fairly dodge well. Zihark has a B support with Volug and will be using Edward's Wrath, and Volug is fine just with his transformed state.

I don't think so. Nolan I can give you, but anyone else wants Resolve, including Micaiah, Edward, Sothe, Jill, Zihark, and Volug. Yes, Zihark wants Resolve more than Wrath. In fact, Edward can stack Wrath and Resolve, making him a better candidate, and others like Zihark and Volug are invincible when Resolve activates, which is more than I can say for Aran.

Aran w/ Resolve = 21 Spd, 71 Avoid (with support accounted for). He'll be seeing >=70% of Hit on all the enemies, and Cats/Tigers will not be doubling him if he happens to be hit. In fact, he'll be doubling Tigers.

So even with the avoid boost, he's seeing >70% hit chances. This is when he's got less than half his HP also. Fail to the extreme.

Above point disproves that whenever he is below half HP, which will majority of the time will be the case.

You're saying that he will be below half HP the majority of the time facing >70% hit rates. I think you more or less made your case worse.

Because Gatrie starts becoming less viable when the ones who have A support with Earth affinity are the ones who can safely move forward every turn, using their 7-8-9 MOV compared to Gatrie's 6 MOV. Also, Canto > Gatrie in 3-8.

Avoid isn't everything. 20% hit rates are not 0% hit rates. Gatrie can still dodge fairly well and doesn't take much damage when he does. Basically, he's staying right with the bulk of the team, getting as many kills as anyone else.

As much as you like to be nice, Aran is doing just fine without it. 18/9 is perfectly viable with what I've stated.

I disagree. Laguz give a lot of experience, but there were other units to get that experience, most of whom were getting more kills as a result of actually doubling. 18/4 is more accurate.

Try <=70 Hit rates, if not lower. 2-3 rounded is silly. 4-5 sounds more like it.

Okay, I don't have stats for these enemies, but I know for a fact that these enemies are stronger than the majority the GM's face, at least in comparison. Aran's better at walling here, but by no means perfect when he's occasionally getting doubled and still constantly getting hit since he doesn't have an Earth partner.

Nope.

Since his Speed hasn't changed much and the enemies are stronger, yup.

With everyone else? Not at all. Not with all the Earth Affinity people doing the job for him. While I do admit I slightly underestimated him, he will be nowhere at --/20 by the time Part 3 Endgame comes. So your best bet is to stick with crowning Gatrie early, which actually makes him more viable since he can Luna stuff, but he still has 6 MOV and is therefore still not fighting as much as Ike and the others.

I think all that I've said up to this point is enough to disprove the theory that Gatrie isn't getting kills.

I won't bother with posting stats, but Aran will STILL be Level 13 by the time he gets there, with three capped stats, and very BEXP abusable. Gatrie without a crown will make him only slightly above Aran, not owning him. Gatrie with a Crown (--/15/2 sounds more like it however) makes him legitimately better, but only for Endgame.

13 is a high level to put Aran at, and even so, BEXP isn't so abundant that you can just throw a ton on him, especially when lots of others want it, characters that will actually make it to Endgame. Gatrie is owning Aran by a lot.

The desert mission destroys any chance of Gatrie being Mr. Invincible, while Aran can still move just as much as the others. You can even crown Aran at that time to give him stat boost to allow him to wreck more stuff.

Aran can move 2 whole spaces. Not as bad as Gatrie's 1, but still terrible. In any case, neither will be on this team.

This is quite untrue and in fact quite shrouded as Aran will have a good amount of spd due to BEXP abuse. Therefore going by stat averages will be quite poor to compare with. Aran can and will be doubling in Endgame. I have already agreed however that Gatrie will have an overall better performance at Endgame, but not by much.

As I showed a few point ago, Aran won't be getting that much BEXP due to there not being enough to really fix his Speed and others wanting it. He can get some, but only enough to raise his average Speed by 2-3 points. Point is, Gatrie doesn't even need BEXP because he caps all his important stats fairly quickly. He only needs a bit to get some more Skill and Luck and maybe Resistance. Not needing BEXP as much >>> needing BEXP for half your levels.

This is false, considering the fact that Aran has been keeping up with the team, tanking many enemies, and has been steadily helping his team from Part 1 to Part 4, and Part 4 is the only time when Gatrie tops Aran, which starts at Endgame, no sooner.

This is false considering everything in this post and the last one. :P

Your move. :)

I activate the Magic card Last Turn! We now both have one final move to make. /Yu-Gi-Oh reference

[HeroMystic]

All I got from him was "I'm here, hi" and nothing else. How do you know he's courageous, just, and friendly when he doesn't talk?

Info Conversations? He has two of them. Lets not forget his very touching death quote either.

But Jill's not here yet, and Nolan has HP to back him up.

Jill however has this problem when she joins, and especially when she is an NPC at 1-5. One poke at her is easily half her HP disappearing. Aran takes a hit like a man and can at least keep over half his HP intact.

Agreed on Nolan however.

Why would I need anything else? A great start is a big advantage.

I can say the same thing for Tormod, Sothe, Vika, and Muraim, but the fact is that being good at start doesn't mean one will still be good later on.

In other words, he isn't getting any kills and is using up resources instead.

Are any of the shields getting kills (besides Sothe)?

You have three, potentially four spots to protect. Sothe must take the upper area and shield there since he also has to the take the boss, and that leaves two spots at the bottom. Nolan is obviously taking one, and Aran is your next best choice. Edward will get kerpwned. Illyana/Leonardo wlll be the 2-range attackers while Nolan and Aran will keep them safe. Laura will be going back and forth healing them.

A Tiger hit destroys Nolan's HP to below half no matter how much you slice it. With combined help from Laura's healing and 2-range attacking, Nolan -could- get the final hit if Leo/Illyana doesn't finish the job. Aran however, can do the same thing. But both Aran and Nolan would be attacking if only to kill. If not, they use vulenaries.

That's incorrect. Even if Edward only makes it to level 7, and generously rounding 21.55 HP down to 21, he takes 20 damage at max, leaving him with 1 health, and that's from the strongest tigers. Edward could easily be level 8 or 9 by now, though, which could give him another possible point in Defense and 2 more in HP, as well as a support that'll give him some defense.

Why would you generously round down 21.55 HP to 21 when that's what you're supposed to do...

In any case, level 7 is unlikely, and I lol'd at level 8 or 9. I've said before that Edward is massive fail on Hard Mode. Edward won't be killing anything in 1-P except for maybe the boss (which gives him level 5). After that however, if he's at the front at anytime, he will die in a massive onslaught of axes and lances. 1-1, 1-2, and 1-3 all act this way. Edward going to the frontlines is pure suicide for him, which also means that in order to keep him alive, he's stuck to staying in the back and on very occasional situations get kills from weakened enemies by Leo, if anyone else isn't killing them instead, which is rare.

Edward will be Level 6, and will be sticking to long-range attacking with Wind Edge.

Once again, I don't see how Aran is entitled to an Earth support when others (Edward, Micaiah, Volug, Zihark, Laura, Jill, Sothe) make much better use of it. Yes, Micaiah and Sothe already have a support going, but an Earth support is better than their already existing one and they both make better use of the avoid.

Sothe has Guard and a Bond on Micaiah. Getting rid of the A support makes Guard nigh-useless when Micaiah gets inevitably attacked. The Bond is a +10% Crit, something Sothe highly relies on for Part 3. Their A support were made for each other with all of these benefits of staying together, and Earth Affinity only gets better when it reaches A, where it legitimately becomes better than Sothe's Guard.

That's still quite a lot of competition regardless. And a wtf at Tormod and Muarim only shining for one chapter. Muarim is like Nailah with transformation and an inability to double Jarod (Wow, one enemy), and Tormod can use Thunder magic to murder 1-8's Dracoknights.

Muarim is hindered by bad placement at 1-8 and can't do much. Tormod can only reach one Dracoknight because he has bad placement as well (and won't be going anywhere due to the fact that Brigs pop up often).

Muarim at 1-E is decent at best due to the fact that everyone is racing up just so the thieves in the castle won't get all the chests. Muarim has to stop to pop in Olivi Grass so he won't get mass-murdered, making his progression terrible while everyone passes him by.

The DB's BEXP is very limited, so Aran isn't guaranteed to get much, if any. But it won't really help him anyway. He doesn't cap much at first tier.

Jill, Nolan, and Aran will be the only ones needing it. Nolan less because he's been your #1 non-promoted DB unit. There's plenty for Aran to get for just ONE level.

...Huh? What I said had nothing to do with the CRK's. I listed all the weapons the GM's come with that Gatrie can use.

All the weapons you've listed are also with the CRK, and will only come from the CRK cause you know, the GMs are auto-deployed without Base usage, which also means no shop, which also means you can't supply GMs with extra weapons, which also means those individual units will be needing the weapons they came with.

So if Gatrie takes a weapon, he'll be hindering his own comrade in the process, and Gatrie doesn't wanna do that now does he?

So you just turned around your previous argument about Gatrie not keeping up by saying that he runs ahead? Okay. It's not stopping him from getting experience when he's in enemy territory.

You misinterpreted me. I already gave him that point of usefulness for 3-P.

"3-P, he only shines when he runs headfirst into the fog of war to get his ass kicked. After that the rest of the GMs take down enemies. Rinse and Repeat until the Laguz destroy everything."

"I'll give Gatrie this, as I wasn't debating against this.

Just keep in mind that you said "On joining".

And he's still not killing anything. He just weakens them, since everyone knows he has to keep his turn so he can rush in the Fog of War again.

Who is "bravely jumping from one side of the army to the other" other than possibly Titania or Oscar? Gatrie is fighting enemies regardless of where he is on the map and doing a good job of it, too.

Besides the killing problem, as Gatrie still has to be used to rush in the Fog of War.

Gatrie isn't the only tank. He's the best for it, but it's not like he's the only one. I think you're really overestimating one less move, and I can add that he shares that with Soren and Rhys. Then there's the fact that he has range while someone like Ike or Mia don't and he's on a similar level.

I'm pretty sure you meant underestimate, but no, I'm not. No one is going to stay behind Gatrie when when they can handle the enemy on their own and survive with avoid or similar defense. Whenever that is the case (and it is for the large majority of GM chapters), that hurts Gatrie. You also keep forgetting that Soren and Rhys are not frontline units at all while Gatrie is.

And Ike and Mia can use Wind Edge, so that's false.

The one with the best defense is the best man for the job against 5 enemy Paladins, and that is Gatrie. As for getting back to Ike, he can just head straight south if Ike and co. haven't finished up already anyway.

Haar will be better for the job since he will be stronger, with similar if not better defense, and can make it to the team faster.

Because he's a wall means he isn't entitled to kills? That makes no sense. If anything, it means he gets more kills because he sees the most enemy phase action of anyone, not to mention getting experience just for fighting.

I'll reiterate, Gatrie won't be doubling, which means Gatrie won't be 1-rounding, which means the team would be killing what he can't, which is those four paladins compared to Gatrie's 1 paladin kill due to 2-rounding.

Heather is stealing from the Senators and that one other Bishop. No time to hang around visiting tents.

Or you can just kill the Senators to get their stuff. We're working for clear time here, not maximum BEXP, and there's no penalty for killing them besides less BEXP reward.

Like Gatrie, remember? If Aran was entitled to an Earth support, so is Gatrie. At least Gatrie makes use of it. And Gatrie's defense is consistently better than Haar's anyway.

Your logic is "way out there", but I'll get to that point in a moment.

Ike and Haar I'll give you, but Oscar can't even make it to the top portion of the map. Gatrie might not be awesome here, but he can do more than a horse.

Even so, Oscar did his part by helping his support and Ranulf get to the middle portion of the map in a more efficient fashion than it would waiting for Gatrie.

I disagree. He may have been slow for the last two chapters, but that didn't stop him from getting kills. 3-3 has reinforcements that come even if Gatrie stays back, 3-4 he's a bit slow but he still got something in since he can always use is full move, and he got a good deal of experience from 3-P, 3-1, and 3-2. Level 14 is very appropriate.

So even two levels lower he's on par in everything and winning in another. That's pretty dang good.

I still disagree, but this point is pretty moot anyway since you conceded that Gatrie will be fighting the generals at the right.

If that's what he does, there is nothing wrong with that. It means he's flexible. He's good wherever he goes. This way, he's killing enemies most of your guys can't. Not everyone is going to charge to get the Energy Drop. It's not like it's a point against him.

Point taken.

Once again, if Aran is entitled to an earth support, so is Gatrie. Besides, Gatrie is doubling fairly reliably by now and dodging quite often, yet not taking much, if any, damage on getting hit. How is anyone a better tank than that?

Best Tank =/= Most entitled. The people who relies on avoid for dodging should be the ones using Earth Affinity. Gatrie using Earth Affinity while he's your "most durable" unit is completely illogical.

Covered Micaiah and Sothe.

So did I.

Edward is decent by the time part 3 comes around for anyone who used him, and he makes much better use of the avoid since he actually can dodge.

Edward's not decent. He's fail, for reasons stated at the beginning of this post.

Laura won't get owned since she got Sealed early and has great Speed, meaning she uses the avoid better as well.

If you're gonna bum rush BEXP on Laura, then you can do the same for Aran and give him a good statistical lead. Besides, using Earth Affinity on Laura is still silly since she won't be fighting.

Zihark and Nolan should probably support.

Which leaves--

Volug should go with Jill because they have similar move.

<_< Terrain problems, Jill being a flyer, and Volug and Aran seeing far more combat on enemy phase than Jill will are more than enough reasons for Jill not being supported with Earth Affinity.

That said, anyone else is more entitled to an Earth partner than Aran, since I already showed in my last post that it actually doesn't help him at all.

I'm quite sure I countered those.

That might be the case in 3-6, but only there, and possibly not anyway. Since she's already built up a support, it's probably best for her to stick back so she can help her partner as well as get help herself.

Hit-and-run-to-safety is far better than "stay back so I can get my avoid that I won't be using on Player phase".

The thing is, Gatrie can avoid, which is more than I can say for Aran, which is why Aran is not entitled to an earth support. Adding avoid helps Gatrie's durability, but it doesn't for Aran because he's getting hit anyway. Either both get an Earth partner or neither do.

Gatrie doesn't need help with his durability. He needs help with being outperformed by the rest of the GMs. Aran, Zihark, Nolan, and Volug needs that durability to effectively beat their chapters.

Okay. In that case, Aran support Laura. It's probably his fastest support anyway.

Says who?

In any case, Gatrie can now get +3 defense, +8 hit, and +8 avoid. That's good enough, really.

That's BETTER than the Earth Affinity. You can even say I was helping you out while proving my case that it's illogical to give him Earth Affinity

I don't think so. Nolan I can give you, but anyone else wants Resolve

Or not.

including Micaiah

Who gets obliterated when she gets hit.

Edward

Who fails and you won't be using.

Sothe

Who will have Paragon.

Jill

Who won't be seeing much combat during the enemy phase.

Zihark

Who yoinked Edward's Wrath. Heck, even Leo's Cancel.

and Volug.

Who would do better with Naliah's Guard, Vantage, or Leo's Cancel.

Yes, Zihark wants Resolve more than Wrath. In fact, Edward can stack Wrath and Resolve, making him a better candidate, and others like Zihark and Volug are invincible when Resolve activates, which is more than I can say for Aran.

I won't keep repeating myself for Edward, but Zihark has better offensive power with Vantage, Wrath and/or Cancel with Adept stacked to it.

So even with the avoid boost, he's seeing >70% hit chances. This is when he's got less than half his HP also. Fail to the extreme.

*mumbles about not proofreading at 4 AM in the morning* That's supposed to be <=70%.

You're saying that he will be below half HP the majority of the time facing >70% hit rates. I think you more or less made your case worse.

<=70%.

It disproves your point that Aran will be getting doubled and failing. That doesn't make my case worse. Quite the opposite in fact.

Avoid isn't everything. 20% hit rates are not 0% hit rates. Gatrie can still dodge fairly well and doesn't take much damage when he does. Basically, he's staying right with the bulk of the team, getting as many kills as anyone else.

20% hit rates are not 0%, sure, but I'll be damned if I wouldn't take that advantage to move forward more quickly, reliably dodge, and rape at the same time than waiting for Gatrie to hulk over to the front.

I disagree. Laguz give a lot of experience, but there were other units to get that experience, most of whom were getting more kills as a result of actually doubling. 18/4 is more accurate.

Who? Edward? :P

Zihark, Jill, and Nolan I see. But not Volug (he doesn't 1 round even with doubling). Aran is getting a good share of EXP.

Okay, I don't have stats for these enemies, but I know for a fact that these enemies are stronger than the majority the GM's face, at least in comparison. Aran's better at walling here, but by no means perfect when he's occasionally getting doubled and still constantly getting hit since he doesn't have an Earth partner.

If he doesn't have an Earth Partner (which is false), then that means you're still using your claim that Aran would be supporting Laura, which also means you're using Laura due to BEXP and crowning her, which also means you that Aran is perfectly viable for 18/9 because he's entitled to being bum-rushed with BEXP just like how Laura was.

Since his Speed hasn't changed much and the enemies are stronger, yup.

Since Resolve is kicking in, been avoiding stuff with Earth Affinity... or if he is supporting Laura, has been BEXP rushed, then nope.

I think all that I've said up to this point is enough to disprove the theory that Gatrie isn't getting kills.

Nope. You only proved that 3-5 was Gatrie's best chapter, which I already said.

13 is a high level to put Aran at, and even so, BEXP isn't so abundant that you can just throw a ton on him, especially when lots of others want it, characters that will actually make it to Endgame. Gatrie is owning Aran by a lot.

Characters going to Endgame won't be needing BEXP, especially with four Laguz Royals, Reyson, Ike, Haar, Shinon, and a few others.

Aran can move 2 whole spaces. Not as bad as Gatrie's 1, but still terrible. In any case, neither will be on this team.

In five turns, Aran would've moved 10 spaces to Gatrie's 5. It may not look so bad on paper, but it stacks and it's horrible for Gatrie.

As I showed a few point ago, Aran won't be getting that much BEXP due to there not being enough to really fix his Speed and others wanting it. He can get some, but only enough to raise his average Speed by 2-3 points. Point is, Gatrie doesn't even need BEXP because he caps all his important stats fairly quickly. He only needs a bit to get some more Skill and Luck and maybe Resistance. Not needing BEXP as much >>> needing BEXP for half your levels.

This is false considering everything in this post and the last one. :P

Conclusion

Aran stays consistently well with his chapters up until Endgame, granted that he needed a bit of help with BEXP and the Resolve skill. Gatrie goes from good, to terrible, then to decent at part 4. While admittedly Gatrie has a better performance at Endgame, he is heavily outperformed by the GMs on his chapters, while Aran is only decently outperformed by the DB on his chapters. Decently Outperformed > Heavily Outperformed.

And with that, I can now say Aran > Gatrie.

I activate the Magic card Last Turn! We now both have one final move to make. /Yu-Gi-Oh reference

Yu-Gi-Oh was terrible. I prefer Pokemon.

Edited January 21, 2009 by HeroMystic

[Florete]

Info Conversations? He has two of them. Lets not forget his very touching death quote either.

Let's not forget Gatrie hitting on Lyre and all those supports back in PoR. Makes Aran look like he has no reason to exist.

Jill however has this problem when she joins, and especially when she is an NPC at 1-5. One poke at her is easily half her HP disappearing. Aran takes a hit like a man and can at least keep over half his HP intact.

Her performance as an NPC means nothing since she isn't under our control.

In 1-6-1, she's only being two-rounded by the strongest of enemies. The others can only 3 round her.

I can say the same thing for Tormod, Sothe, Vika, and Muraim, but the fact is that being good at start doesn't mean one will still be good later on.

But Gatrie is good later on. He can be crowned early and be doubling, dodging, murdering, no-damage-to-him machine.

Are any of the shields getting kills (besides Sothe)?

Maybe not. This means Aran isn't getting kills. You said it yourself. :P

You have three, potentially four spots to protect. Sothe must take the upper area and shield there since he also has to the take the boss, and that leaves two spots at the bottom. Nolan is obviously taking one, and Aran is your next best choice. Edward will get kerpwned. Illyana/Leonardo wlll be the 2-range attackers while Nolan and Aran will keep them safe. Laura will be going back and forth healing them.

Because of the set-up you described with Ily and Leo as backup, Laura can't go back and forth healing. They'll have to heal themselves. And I showed that Edward is not getting kerpwned, but since you need more proof of his level....

A Tiger hit destroys Nolan's HP to below half no matter how much you slice it. With combined help from Laura's healing and 2-range attacking, Nolan -could- get the final hit if Leo/Illyana doesn't finish the job. Aran however, can do the same thing. But both Aran and Nolan would be attacking if only to kill. If not, they use vulenaries.

Yeah...not much to say here. No point in his favor, no point against him either. He's still being two-rounded, so he actually never sees player phase action and isn't getting kills.

Why would you generously round down 21.55 HP to 21 when that's what you're supposed to do...

With his 85% growth and 55 being > 50, it can easily go either way. But it doesn't matter.

In any case, level 7 is unlikely, and I lol'd at level 8 or 9. I've said before that Edward is massive fail on Hard Mode. Edward won't be killing anything in 1-P except for maybe the boss (which gives him level 5). After that however, if he's at the front at anytime, he will die in a massive onslaught of axes and lances. 1-1, 1-2, and 1-3 all act this way. Edward going to the frontlines is pure suicide for him, which also means that in order to keep him alive, he's stuck to staying in the back and on very occasional situations get kills from weakened enemies by Leo, if anyone else isn't killing them instead, which is rare.

Most of the time, he never has to face more than one enemy, so I don't see what you're getting at. And since no one except Sothe can one-round anything, Edward will get an occasional kill just like anyone else. His durability sucks, but his accuracy and ability to double is good for player phase attacking and taking one enemy on the enemy phase. 7 or 8 is fairly likely.

Sothe has Guard and a Bond on Micaiah. Getting rid of the A support makes Guard nigh-useless when Micaiah gets inevitably attacked. The Bond is a +10% Crit, something Sothe highly relies on for Part 3. Their A support were made for each other with all of these benefits of staying together, and Earth Affinity only gets better when it reaches A, where it legitimately becomes better than Sothe's Guard.

Guard isn't such a special skill, and it's unreliable because he has to be right next to her. Compared to her A with Sothe, a C with Earth makes her lose 1 attack, 8 accuracy, and 5 avoid. The 1 attack and 8 accuracy are laughable and the avoid can be dealt with until it becomes a B, at which point it's already better. Micaiah wants Earth more than Sothe's Wind.

Muarim is hindered by bad placement at 1-8 and can't do much. Tormod can only reach one Dracoknight because he has bad placement as well (and won't be going anywhere due to the fact that Brigs pop up often).

Bad placement? Not at all. A shot of Olivi Grass, a quick rescue of a prisoner, and when he's transformed his mobility is matched by only Nailah and Volug (And Vika, but she's not too good). Tormod can jump in the swamp after and save the prisoners by the time the Dracoknights appear at the left. This is more than Aran can do.

Muarim at 1-E is decent at best due to the fact that everyone is racing up just so the thieves in the castle won't get all the chests. Muarim has to stop to pop in Olivi Grass so he won't get mass-murdered, making his progression terrible while everyone passes him by.

Using a player phase to pop an Olivi Grass barely hinders him. He still has some of the best enemy phase action. Don't forget that these enemies with Jarod's 3 stars are rape machines that will be hitting Aran, regardless of if he got an Earth partner or not, which he obviously shouldn't if it doesn't help him, which it isn't.

Jill, Nolan, and Aran will be the only ones needing it. Nolan less because he's been your #1 non-promoted DB unit. There's plenty for Aran to get for just ONE level.

I can allow him one level. Point is, it doesn't actually help him at all because he hasn't capped enough.

All the weapons you've listed are also with the CRK, and will only come from the CRK cause you know, the GMs are auto-deployed without Base usage, which also means no shop, which also means you can't supply GMs with extra weapons, which also means those individual units will be needing the weapons they came with.

Um...I didn't mention anything in regards to the CRK, strictly the GM's weapons. And you made a vital mistake; the GM's do have a base session at the start of 3-P and 3-1, they just don't have a preparations menu. Items can still be traded before the battles start.

So if Gatrie takes a weapon, he'll be hindering his own comrade in the process, and Gatrie doesn't wanna do that now does he?

Obviously, he does not, as I have just shown.

And he's still not killing anything. He just weakens them, since everyone knows he has to keep his turn so he can rush in the Fog of War again.

That logic makes little sense. No one is saying he can't finish a job he started. No one is saying he won't see an enemy ahead of him and attack it on player phase. He's still getting a lor of CEXP because he sees a lot of enemy phase action, more than most as you have conceded.

Besides the killing problem, as Gatrie still has to be used to rush in the Fog of War.

Gatrie doesn't have to rush anywhere since enemies come from all directions. If anything, he's better here than before.

I'm pretty sure you meant underestimate, but no, I'm not. No one is going to stay behind Gatrie when when they can handle the enemy on their own and survive with avoid or similar defense. Whenever that is the case (and it is for the large majority of GM chapters), that hurts Gatrie. You also keep forgetting that Soren and Rhys are not frontline units at all while Gatrie is.

No one has to stay behind for Gatrie because he constantly uses his full move, or he can pull back if needed. That's the great part about him; he's so amazingly durable he can go far ahead or sick back and wall it up if needed. Other less durable units can't take so many attacks and so aren't using their full move all the time. Gatrie can.

And Ike and Mia can use Wind Edge, so that's false

Not until 3-2. I was talking about 3-P and 3-1.

Haar will be better for the job since he will be stronger, with similar if not better defense, and can make it to the team faster.

I'll reiterate, Gatrie won't be doubling, which means Gatrie won't be 1-rounding, which means the team would be killing what he can't, which is those four paladins compared to Gatrie's 1 paladin kill due to 2-rounding.

Mr. Bolting says hi, and he's hungry for some Dragon. Let's compare defensive stats:

Gatrie, level 11: 44.5 Hp, 20.6 Speed, 15.3 Luck, 24.6 Defense, 11.35 Resistance

Haar, level 12: 46.3 HP, 20.3 Speed, 13.45 Luck, 23.65 Defense, 7.2 Resistance

Haar is slightly worse all around except in HP, yet he's being fried by Bolting. Gatrie is the man for the job.

Gatrie won't be doubling, but he'll be getting CEXP for all of the fights plus at least one kill. That's more than everyone else who is only getting the one kill.

Or you can just kill the Senators to get their stuff. We're working for clear time here, not maximum BEXP, and there's no penalty for killing them besides less BEXP reward.

BEXP that's that easy to get will be gotten. There's no way around that. It's not a lot of BEXP, but it will be gotten.

Even so, Oscar did his part by helping his support and Ranulf get to the middle portion of the map in a more efficient fashion than it would waiting for Gatrie.

So Oscar is better than Gatrie for half the map only? Not really a point against Gatrie.

I still disagree, but this point is pretty moot anyway since you conceded that Gatrie will be fighting the generals at the right.

And that's a point in his favor. ^_^

Best Tank =/= Most entitled. The people who relies on avoid for dodging should be the ones using Earth Affinity. Gatrie using Earth Affinity while he's your "most durable" unit is completely illogical.

I can say the exact same thing for Aran. Others, like Zihark, Nolan, Volug, Micaiah, Sothe, Laura, Edward, and Jill rely on dodging more than Aran because they actually can use an Earth support to dodge, whereas Aran is still getting hit. He's effectively wasting a great affinity.

So did I.

And I hit it back.

Edward's not decent. He's fail, for reasons stated at the beginning of this post.

He was fail in early part 1. At this point, he's fairly decent, even if not as good as the likes of others. Point is, he makes better use of an Earth support because he can actually dodge.

If you're gonna bum rush BEXP on Laura, then you can do the same for Aran and give him a good statistical lead. Besides, using Earth Affinity on Laura is still silly since she won't be fighting.

What did I say about BEXP rushing Laura? She needs just as much as she's entitled to get to 15 by 1-E, and then she can be promoted and start growing faster. She makes better use of earth support because of higher Luck and Speed and a greater need for avoid.

<_< Terrain problems, Jill being a flyer, and Volug and Aran seeing far more combat on enemy phase than Jill will are more than enough reasons for Jill not being supported with Earth Affinity

So she just won't be supported? That makes no sense. She has similar move to Volug and a greater use for an avoid bonus, thus she's a great candidate for a Volug support, better than Aran.

I'm quite sure I countered those

And I'm quite sure I re-countered.

Hit-and-run-to-safety is far better than "stay back so I can get my avoid that I won't be using on Player phase".

That strategy isn't perfect, especially in fog-of-war where all the enemies can't be seen, making player phase action more difficult is she's doing hit-and-run.

Gatrie doesn't need help with his durability. He needs help with being outperformed by the rest of the GMs. Aran, Zihark, Nolan, and Volug needs that durability to effectively beat their chapters.

But he's not outperformed by them. He's the best defensively and among the best offensively. He doubles fairly reliably and dishes out more damage than almost anyone, all while hardly taking any damage. Since Aran doesn't dodge, he isn't getting any help from that support.

That's BETTER than the Earth Affinity. You can even say I was helping you out while proving my case that it's illogical to give him Earth Affinity

I wouldn't say it's better, more about on par. Still, it's an advantage because he's getting good bonuses no matter where he supports. ^_^

Who gets obliterated when she gets hit.

Not by Cats considering she isn't doubled. Plus, she's a bigger priority to be kept alive.

Who fails and you won't be using.

I use Edward almost every game, so that's incorrect. He makes better use of it because he'll actually have somewhat reliable dodge when it triggers.

Who will have Paragon.

Says who? Anyone promoted can take Paragon. I find it's best on Micaiah or Laura because of staff use. He makes better use of Resolve for the same reason as Edward.

Who won't be seeing much combat during the enemy phase.

Yet still makes better use of it for above reasons. Existing avoid.

Who yoinked Edward's Wrath. Heck, even Leo's Cancel.

Resolve > Wrath and Cancel. With a support + Resolve, Zihark might never get hit.

Who would do better with Naliah's Guard, Vantage, or Leo's Cancel.

Vantage is pretty bad overall, Guard is useless against these guys, and Cancel is still < Resolve. Volug makes arguably the best use of Resolve because of high HP, meaning isn't in death's range when Resolve kicks in.

I won't keep repeating myself for Edward, but Zihark has better offensive power with Vantage, Wrath and/or Cancel with Adept stacked to it.

He needs avoid more than offense, and Resolve is the one giving it to him. Resolve > Wrath, Cancel, or Vantage on Zihark, but he can stack Vantage or Cancel with it anyway.

*mumbles about not proofreading at 4 AM in the morning* That's supposed to be <=70%.

<=70%.

Actually, it isn't. You pointed out he has 71 avoid. Against 132-142 hit enemies, 70% is about correct. Even if he somehow got an Earth support and Resolve, that still leaves him seeing 40-50% hit chances with less than half his HP. Not reliable, and nothing on this side of the Milky Way entitles him to all that favoritism when others need and want it more.

It disproves your point that Aran will be getting doubled and failing. That doesn't make my case worse. Quite the opposite in fact.

He isn't doubled only when he has less than half his HP left, yet he's still seeing >40% hit chances, and only with special favoritism that he will never be entitled to. That's bad.

20% hit rates are not 0%, sure, but I'll be damned if I wouldn't take that advantage to move forward more quickly, reliably dodge, and rape at the same time than waiting for Gatrie to hulk over to the front.

No one's waiting. Gatrie is right up there with them.

Who? Edward? :P

Sure, why not? He's a candidate.

Zihark, Jill, and Nolan I see. But not Volug (he doesn't 1 round even with doubling). Aran is getting a good share of EXP.

Only his fair share, no more. Possibly less since he needs to heal himself quite often.

If he doesn't have an Earth Partner (which is false), then that means you're still using your claim that Aran would be supporting Laura, which also means you're using Laura due to BEXP and crowning her, which also means you that Aran is perfectly viable for 18/9 because he's entitled to being bum-rushed with BEXP just like how Laura was.

As I already mentioned, I never said a thing about BEXP'ing Laura a ton, and if she was, there was none left for Aran anyway. 18/9 just isn't happening.

Since Resolve is kicking in, been avoiding stuff with Earth Affinity... or if he is supporting Laura, has been BEXP rushed, then nope.

I already countered all of that. He's not dodging and he wasn't BEXP rushed.

Nope. You only proved that 3-5 was Gatrie's best chapter, which I already said

Oh, but I did. CEXP on the enemy phase (including anyone he kills on the enemy phase) + a kill on the player phase = plenty of kills for Gatrie.

Characters going to Endgame won't be needing BEXP, especially with four Laguz Royals, Reyson, Ike, Haar, Shinon, and a few others.

Yes, they will. When characters start capping stats, the BEXP comes. It's just the way this game works. Even the characters you listed will likely be getting BEXP.

In five turns, Aran would've moved 10 spaces to Gatrie's 5. It may not look so bad on paper, but it stacks and it's horrible for Gatrie.

This point is nullified because neither are going to this chapter in anyone's right mind. Even so, Aran would get stopped immediately by Elsleep, allowing Gatrie to catch up.

Conclusion

Aran stays consistently well with his chapters up until Endgame, granted that he needed a bit of help with BEXP and the Resolve skill. Gatrie goes from good, to terrible, then to decent at part 4. While admittedly Gatrie has a better performance at Endgame, he is heavily outperformed by the GMs on his chapters, while Aran is only decently outperformed by the DB on his chapters. Decently Outperformed > Heavily Outperformed.

And with that, I can now say Aran > Gatrie.

Gatrie stayed consistently great through all his chapters, even Endgame, and didn't even need much BEXP, allowing others to use it, nor did he need favoritism for skills or supports. Aran needed special attention and still was below-average because of awful Speed/avoid. Being a great asset to the team whenever you're there, not needing BEXP or skills > being slow and reliant on skills, support, and BEXP to be just decent.

Yu-Gi-Oh was terrible. I prefer Pokemon.

At least Yu-Gi-Oh had a plot. :o

[Florete]

Are there even any judges around to vote?

[HeroMystic]

Won't even need judges to know how much I got my ass kicked, lol.

I put too much subjective experience for Aran and thought he was good.

One question though (disregarding the debate), how is Laura going to get level 10-15 without BEXP?

[Florete]

Won't even need judges to know how much I got my ass kicked, lol.

I put too much subjective experience for Aran and thought he was good.

One question though (disregarding the debate), how is Laura going to get level 10-15 without BEXP?

Not entirely without BEXP. I usually get her up to 89 experience at base as long as she isn't at like, 0 experience already, so she can usually gain at least 2 levels a map considering all the healing she does, and then some. Most people don't realize how stupidly easy a level 5-10 Bishop Laura makes part 3, especially in hard mode, and more than any other character. If you can manage to get her to 10-15 again and Crown her, 3-12 and 3-13 are laughable. This is, of course, considering you have a good team, like fully supported Zihark and Nolan, supported Jill and Volug, and for Laura, probably Aran. That's how I did it and the DB's part 3 chapters were almost easier than the GM's.

All that said, Laura is underrated.

[HeroMystic]

Not entirely without BEXP. I usually get her up to 89 experience at base as long as she isn't at like, 0 experience already, so she can usually gain at least 2 levels a map considering all the healing she does, and then some. Most people don't realize how stupidly easy a level 5-10 Bishop Laura makes part 3, especially in hard mode, and more than any other character. If you can manage to get her to 10-15 again and Crown her, 3-12 and 3-13 are laughable. This is, of course, considering you have a good team, like fully supported Zihark and Nolan, supported Jill and Volug, and for Laura, probably Aran. That's how I did it and the DB's part 3 chapters were almost easier than the GM's.

All that said, Laura is underrated.

I see. I never seen it that way. I'll have to try that out on my next playthrough.

Yeah, she is underrated. Even without the Bishop thing, I still use her since NPC bishops make me lol.

[Vykan12]

Here’s my tl;dr opinion. I’ll give a brief summary of what I thought in the next post.

Hero’s stuff

Aran is helping the Dawn Brigade with his cool and balanced stats.

Even if his bases are balanced, his growths are far from it. 50% hp, 75% str, 10% mag, 75% skl, 35% spd, 35% luck, 70% def, 25% res. It’s pretty clear that Aran will have amazing physical defence at max potential but will have utterly fail speed, avoid and resistance, so he deviates quite a lot from the definition of balanced.

As you can see, Aran is only slightly behind Nolan when he joins, although Nolan obviously dominates in HP. But this is off set by the fact that Aran has more defense. So what does this all mean? Well, he's your next best tank unit.

Although that is ascertainably true, you have to compare Aran to your other frontliners to fully prove your point (saying Eddie fails alone doesn’t cut it). And he can only be your third best tank in 1-3 because of Sothe.

At 1-4, Aran lols at Meg's frail defense and HP, and takes her position for being a shield against the Laguz.

This is nothing special since Meg fails and you can deploy about 80% of your units at this point.

For the rest of Part 1, Aran gets competition with Zihark, Jill, Volug, and Nolan. However, Aran still keeps up with them unlike the other failures. At the end of Part 1, with the help of Paragon, Aran should be 20/1 or very close to it (which will be settled just fine with BEXP or a Master Crown).

Again, stat comparisons would help here. For one, Volug beats Aran in durability quite easily just looking at his huge hp and avo lead, and also leads defence for quite a while without ever losing that by a significant margin. You also didn’t make mention of more temporary competition like Nailah and the laguz alliance.

Part 3, Gatrie finally gets his slow-self into gear. He's a level 10 General and starts with Steel Greatlance and an Iron Lance. Not too shabby, if you ignore how painfully slow he is. His spd is 20, while next lowest is Boyd at 18.

No it’s not. Rolf has 19, Soren has18, Mist has 15 and Rhys has 14. Also, Oscar and Titania only have a 1 spd advantage over him and you made no mention of Gatrie’s 60% spd growth. Red Fox did counter this suitably, though, so kudos for her.

Therefore he's going to be having a big problem killing units

Why? There’s many more ways to work around offensive flaws than any other. Killer/brave/other special weapons, stat boosters, skills (mainly adept) and most importantly, a master crown are all possibilities to help him. And at --/16/1, he has 25 speed, enough to double most part 3 enemies.

especially swordmasters who double him on an almost consistent basis, which is a problem as well seeing as how he's supposed to be your "shield”.

There’s 2 problems with this statement. First, swordsmasters in early part 3 have 23-24 spd, so Gatrie is rather easily *not* getting doubled, especially after a few levels, and even supposing they do, you’ve presented no proof he’ll take any significant damage. Again, Fox addressed this.

On to your chapter by chapter analysis, you didn’t consider at all the fact that you can ferry Gatrie to have him keep up.

At this point, Aran is 20/1, has an B support with Nolan since they love tanking together

First, you’re giving Aran 13 levels in 7 chapters, or an average of 1.85 levels per chapter, which is ridiculous considering how bad his offence is for most of part 1 along with the fact that we’re talking about HM and the DB have below average exp gains in their chapters relative to others.

Also, you’ve provided insufficient reasoning as to why Aran is supporting Nolan. I’d go along something like earth x thunder giving 30 avo and 2 def makes for a nice durability bonus and it’s one of Nolan’s quickest supports. Once again, Fox gave a good rebbutal to this point.

Chapters 8-11, Gatrie is still failing, because he still can't keep up, and he's starting to lack those level-ups to keep on par with the others.

You haven’t looked at Gatrie’s bases recently then. He only needs to reach --/16 to cap str, spd and def, his 3 most important stats. That’s 6 levels he needs to finish his statistical growth in second tier. So even if he may not be reaching as many enemies as, say, Titania, he’s not suffering much because of it.

Then Aran pops up again next chapter. Oh lookie, more laguz! Guess that means we can chalk up about three more level ups for Aran since he and Nolan will be tanking along with Taureoneo.

This doesn’t say anything relevant about how Aran is performing against those laguz. “tanking with Nolan and Tauroneo” isn’t an argument.

Gatrie is really starting to become a liability

Gatrie a liability? He has 44 hp, 24 def and 11 res at base level, along with high growths in all 3 of those stats, in addition to a 150% avoid growth. Gatrie being a liability is an oxymoron.

Comes along Part 4, and now we can finally compare stats between Aran and Gatrie.

You gave Gatrie 4 levels to Aran’s 26? Are you out of your mind? Gatrie only has 1 less move than Aran and has a much better joining situation than him, along with slightly better availability. Seriously, I’m almost willing to proclaim Red Fox the winner based on the epic failure of this point.

Gatrie will fail hard going to the Silver Army due to the desert mission. The terrain, mages, and the laguz makes the Hawk Army iffy. So he's best to stay with the Greil Army.

Ike’s route is the hardest one due to the enemies having elevated stats and coming in greater numbers, so Gatrie doing his best here is actually a point in his favor compared to Aran. Also, bad mobility in a chapter like 4-4 isn’t the end of the world since some units get a movement penalty or can’t climb a ledge, and you can encounter quite a lot of enemy reinforcements without having to move very much.

Aran has to compete with the likes of Nephenee, Oscar, and a few others for a spot to get to Endgame, and Wishblade. Although he can be going anyway due to his awesome A support with Nolan.

Gatrie has to compete with.... well, the entire cast.

This point has no basis… if the competition consists of “who’s getting which SS weapon”, then Gatrie has the same competition as Aran due to specializing in lances. Also, Gatrie has access to 2 other weapon types, so he can opt to use a blessed brave weapon or something, meaning he has a lot more flexibility in weapon choice, and thus less competition to worry about.

Tormod/Muarim/Vika only shine for one chapter (the one they join in).

Bull****. There’s no reason they don’t “shine” in 1-7, 1-8 and 1-E more or less equally. Fox covered this.

Nailah/BK gets to destroy everything for 1-E, which is bad because if they do so, then NONE of the DB gets to be ready for 3-6.

Not if you refrain them sufficiently.

The CRK would like their weapons back so they won't suck for 3-9.

Most of the weapons mentioned are buyable and Geoffrey can solo 3-9 with a brave lance, so I don’t see where you’re going with that.

Enemies attacking his comrades = Gatrie not doing his job.

Gatrie’s job isn’t to defend his comrades (that’s a collective job of your frontliners assuming you even use squishy units), it’s to help complete a map efficiently, which usually involves killing enemies quickly, helping out his support partner, etc.

While we're at it, lets give Aran that Resolve skill.

You wanted to give Aran paragon in part 1 AND resolve in part 3? Massive limited resource dependence ftl.

Edward won't be killing anything in 1-P except for maybe the boss (which gives him level 5).

Wtf? He could kill every enemy in the map by having Micaiah attack then have him finish, or just 2 round the enemies.

Sothe has Guard and a Bond on Micaiah. Getting rid of the A support makes Guard nigh-useless when Micaiah gets inevitably attacked.

Guard sucks.

Red Fox’s stuff

I can't really disagree much with this. The thing is, he's still being 2-rounded by fighters and 3-rounded by everything else, so his durability, though better than the likes of Edward, Leonardo, etc., is nothing special since he'll still rely on Laura to heal him.

That’s irrelevant, if Aran has better durability relative to his teammates, it doesn’t matter how poor his durability is relative to the enemy. If everyone is 1HKOed and Aran is 2HKOed, then he’s top tier in terms of durability despite being a huge liability. Hero did challenge you on this point, in any case.

Might I also mention that Aran's accuracy is fairly low to start. With an Iron Lance and at neutral biorythm, he has 115 hit while enemies are sporting 25-30 avoid. He'll often see <80% hit rates, especially if he tries hitting anything with a Javelin or anything in the multitude of terrain.

Good thing forged weapons are rather inexpensive, and with Aran’s non-doubling, will last him a very long time. Hero brought that up, fortunately.

Gatrie, on the other hand and in his joining chapter, is being 4-rounded by mages and 5-rounded by physical enemies, at worst. Most physical enemies do even less. On joining, Gatrie has the best durability on his team. Aran doesn't have that status.

Again, irrelevant for reasons already explained. Gatrie could be 100HKOed, but if everyone else on his team is getting 150HKOed, then Gatrie’s the least durable unit on the team.

Aran has much tougher competition for an endgame slot than Gatrie due to terrible Speed and both mastering in Lances anyway. Because of superior caps, weapons, and growths, Gatrie is much, much more likely to be taken to endgame.

You’re slightly incorrect here. Gatrie’s spd cap is 31 while Aran’s is 33, and spd is the most important stat in just about any FE game, so Gatrie having better caps is arguable. Though, Aran reaching max spd is a different story entirely and I don’t see it happening on HM since there’s not quite enough BEXP floating around as there is on NM to permit the kind of abuse he needs to improve his paltry spd.

Aran can move 2 whole spaces. Not as bad as Gatrie's 1, but still terrible. In any case, neither will be on this team.

Because of ½ chapters where both have crap move? Remember that Sigrun is forced, Tanith’s probably in play and most of your fliers/laguz are probably taking this route, so they can easily be ferried into combat.

Mr. Bolting says hi, and he's hungry for some Dragon. Let's compare defensive stats:

Gatrie, level 11: 44.5 Hp, 20.6 Speed, 15.3 Luck, 24.6 Defense, 11.35 Resistance

Haar, level 12: 46.3 HP, 20.3 Speed, 13.45 Luck, 23.65 Defense, 7.2 Resistance

Haar is slightly worse all around except in HP, yet he's being fried by Bolting. Gatrie is the man for the job.

Wut? Haar can take the south route better if the bolting dude is bothering him, and is the only person who can really reach any enemies in the southeast corner of the map, at least the non-wyverns in any case. And that bolting guy isn’t really that deadly considering his accuracy, how Haar is probably not at risk of dying if he gets hit by it AND a few other enemies, and that he can take nullify or something since no one else is using it in any meaningful way (yet).

BEXP that's that easy to get will be gotten. There's no way around that. It's not a lot of BEXP, but it will be gotten.

You don’t have to assume it is, though the BEXP gained is pitiful, so I can see where Hero is coming from in saying it’s better to just kill them.

Plus, she's a bigger priority to be kept alive.

Say what?

Only his fair share, no more. Possibly less since he needs to heal himself quite often.

There’s nothing stating that BEXP is distributed communistically between you units. If you require more than the average unit, then it’s a negative based on excessive resource consumption, and vice versa, simple as that.

Yes, they will. When characters start capping stats, the BEXP comes. It's just the way this game works. Even the characters you listed will likely be getting BEXP.

That’s not the only way to properly use BEXP (eg/ BEXPing a laguz or a fail unit to 99 and having them level up from the first kill in the upcoming chapter) but wtv.

This point is nullified because neither are going to this chapter in anyone's right mind. Even so, Aran would get stopped immediately by Elsleep, allowing Gatrie to catch up.

You’re assuming Aran even gets targeted for elsleep, and restore staves say hi.

[Vykan12]

Anyway, I'd give the victory to Red Fox. Hero basically tried to make some disgustingly exaggerated arguments about Gatrie failing because of his poor mobility, and some of his other points such as Gatrie's doubling issues were similarly blown out of proportion. As for his Aran defence, he brought up some pretty weak points involving resolve and probably could've introduced some more numbers to give his argument some more substance. Sorry if I'm sounding harsh.

As for Red Fox, she made far fewer blunders and gave more solid support to her arguments. For instance, her point that Gatrie would make better use of an avo support than Aran would was a good defence against that whole Aran/Nolan support hype and she set him straight on a lot of part 1 misconceptions he had, such as the laguz alliance only being good in 1-7.

Sorry if that's a bit of a half ***ed critique, but it's 4 AM and I read this whole debate in on shot, so my judgment's probably a little out of whack.

Edited January 21, 2009 by Vykan12

[Don Draper]

And as an interesting sidebit, Edward beats Aran on 1-4.

Chapter 1-4:

4x Tiger lvl 6

HP 41, Atk 26, AS 12, Hit 125, Avo 31, DEF 10, RES 2, Crit 7, Ddg 2

3x Tiger lvl 5

HP 40, Atk 24, AS 10, Hit 125, Avo 27, DEF 10, RES 2, Crit 7, Ddg 2

1x Tiger lvl 4

HP 39, Atk 24, AS 10, Hit 120, Avo 26, DEF 10, RES 2, Crit 6, Ddg 1

2x Cat lvl 5

HP 34, Atk 18, AS 14, Hit 128, Avo 34, DEF 8, RES 4, Crit 8, Ddg 1

1x Cat lvl 6

HP 35, Atk 18, AS 14, Hit 128, Avo 34, DEF 8, RES 6, Crit 8, Ddg 1

1x Pain lvl 6 (tiger boss)

HP 43, Atk 26, AS 10, Hit 132, Avo 30, DEF 12, RES 2, Crit 8, Ddg 5

1x Agony lvl 6 (tiger boss)

HP 43, Atk 24, AS 12, Hit 130, Avo 32, DEF 10, RES 8, Crit 9, Ddg 3

Reinforcements:

1x Tiger lv 6 (Turn 4, north)

HP 41, Atk 26, AS 12, Hit 125, Avo 31, DEF 10, RES 2, Crit 7, Ddg 2

1x Cat lvl 5 (Turn 4, north)

HP 34, Atk 18, AS 14, Hit 128, Avo 34, DEF 8, RES 4, Crit 8, Ddg 1

1x Tiger lv 6 (Turn 6, north)

HP 41, Atk 26, AS 12, Hit 125, Avo 31, DEF 10, RES 2, Crit 7, Ddg 2

Aran (Level 7) (+5 Might/+5% Hit): 24 HP, 22 Atk, 108%,Hit, 26 Avd, 10 AS 11 Def

Cats do to Aran 7x2 damage (100% chance to hit). 2RKO'd. He in turn deals 14 Damage (86% chance to hit). He 3RKO's them.

Tigers do 13-15 damage (94-99% chance to hit). Again, 2RKO'd. He in turn deals 12 Damage (89-94% chance to hit). He 4RKO's them.

Edward (Level 7) (+5 Might/+5% Hit): 22 HP, 20 Atk, 131 Hit, 38 Avd, 14 AS, 6 Def

Cats do to Edward 12 damage (90% chance to hit). 2RKO'd. He in turn deals 12 damage (97% chance to hit). He 3RKO's them.

Tigers do 18 damage (82-87% chance to hit). Again 2RKO'd. He in turn deals 10 damage (x1 or x2) (100% Chance to Hit) He 2RKOs or 4RKOs them

So both are 2RKO'd, and are similar offensively, except that Edward does better against the 10 AS Tigers. Plus, Aran has a 1-3% chance of being criticalled, and Edward has around an 8-10% chance of criticalling himself. Plus, he might have a temporary Nolan/Leo support by then. Edward is clearly better.

[HeroMystic]

Yeah, I've noticed that awhile back when I was calculating at 4 in the morning, but since I was fighting for Aran I decided to be ignorant of it.

[Florete]

Red Fox’s stuff

Again, irrelevant for reasons already explained. Gatrie could be 100HKOed, but if everyone else on his team is getting 150HKOed, then Gatrie’s the least durable unit on the team.

You're right, I should've compared his durability to others. I stated that he was the most durable, but I didn't compare. My mistake.

Because of ½ chapters where both have crap move? Remember that Sigrun is forced, Tanith’s probably in play and most of your fliers/laguz are probably taking this route, so they can easily be ferried into combat.

Personally, I never found ferrying to be a great strategy because it leaves the flier vulnerable.

Wut? Haar can take the south route better if the bolting dude is bothering him, and is the only person who can really reach any enemies in the southeast corner of the map, at least the non-wyverns in any case. And that bolting guy isn’t really that deadly considering his accuracy, how Haar is probably not at risk of dying if he gets hit by it AND a few other enemies, and that he can take nullify or something since no one else is using it in any meaningful way (yet).

I believe the original argument was deciding who should take the Paladin reinforcements to the north, not the south.

Say what?

This was for Micaiah, right? Maybe that was a bad point, but it's game over if she dies.

There’s nothing stating that BEXP is distributed communistically between you units. If you require more than the average unit, then it’s a negative based on excessive resource consumption, and vice versa, simple as that.

I believe the point was for CEXP and not BEXP, but I believe I more or less pointed that out, though worded differently, in my last post.

That’s not the only way to properly use BEXP (eg/ BEXPing a laguz or a fail unit to 99 and having them level up from the first kill in the upcoming chapter) but wtv.

Yeah, I didn't think of that when I was writing the argument.

You’re assuming Aran even gets targeted for elsleep, and restore staves say hi.

With fail Resistance, I find it pretty likely. Though yes, Restore staves.

Everything else I agree with you on.

Other than that, I can't believe I forgot to mention Gatrie's very possible transfers for Strength and Defense as well as Aran getting raped by any Mage/Sage he sees, especially Thunder ones (Critical say hi). I guess neither would have helped much, but it might have been nice to include.

[dondon151]

Anyway, I'd give the victory to Red Fox. Hero basically tried to make some disgustingly exaggerated arguments about Gatrie failing because of his poor mobility, and some of his other points such as Gatrie's doubling issues were similarly blown out of proportion. As for his Aran defence, he brought up some pretty weak points involving resolve and probably could've introduced some more numbers to give his argument some more substance. Sorry if I'm sounding harsh.

Yeah, I personally thought the Resolve argument shouldn't have been brought up at all =/ Especially when you mentioned that Aran will be facing hit rates of less than or equal to 70%, you set up an easy refutation.

[Mekkah]

That's just like using the Boots as an excuse for low movement. Not needing Boots > needing Boots to have X movement. It would be fine if you had like 10 celerities running around, but you only have one. You would have to compare Gatrie with Celerity to Ike/Shinon/Mia/Titania/Haar/Oscar etc with Celerity, so he just gets owned more badly.

[Gatrie: Guns Blazing]

That's just like using the Boots as an excuse for low movement. Not needing Boots > needing Boots to have X movement. It would be fine if you had like 10 celerities running around, but you only have one. You would have to compare Gatrie with Celerity to Ike/Shinon/Mia/Titania/Haar/Oscar etc with Celerity, so he just gets owned more badly.

but its about Gatrie and Aran. Not Gatrie and everyone.

im saying Gatrie with added movement increases his worth a hundred fold. thats all

[Mekkah]

Comparing Gatrie and Aran for the majority of the game involves comparing Gatrie to the Greil Mercs and Aran to the rest of the Dawn Brigade.

No, it doesn't increase his worth a hundred fold, it adds 2 move like everyone else. It can in fact be argued as even more for people with Canto, especially Haar, since sometimes people don't need to use all their move to bump into an enemy, but units with Canto can at least use up the rest of their movement.

[Gatrie: Guns Blazing]

Comparing Gatrie and Aran for the majority of the game involves comparing Gatrie to the Greil Mercs and Aran to the rest of the Dawn Brigade.

No, it doesn't increase his worth a hundred fold, it adds 2 move like everyone else. It can in fact be argued as even more for people with Canto, especially Haar, since sometimes people don't need to use all their move to bump into an enemy, but units with Canto can at least use up the rest of their movement.

*starts to say something*

...wait...this isn't our debate :/

[Gatrie: Guns Blazing]

if you remove Tormod's clerity, give it to Ilyana (in her inventory) and then give it to Gatrie as a skill in Ch. 3-3 then doesnt that make him 100x more useful? (am I the only one who did this?)

plus you guys forget that Gatrie can get a little push from the PoR savefile download....Aran cannot.

Edited January 25, 2009 by Prosecutor Gatrin