Book 2

[Lord Raven]

It also just happens that all mages not named Merric are bollocks. Meaning, FEDS's poor mage stats are to blame for this, not the mage class itself.

Then Melee units are entirely dominant.

Let's look at FE9, by the way.

Oh wait, the highest tier mage is Soren or Rhys! Hallelujah they're upper mid.

Then you've got mid tier ilyana, tormod, callil

bottom tier bastian

it's only got five magic users, which is sorta pathetic too proving even further it's melee dominant

FE10, Callil is highest tiered (like upper mid or something). Then Micaiah/Pelleas (upper mid or mid iunno), Soren (mid), Tormod (low), Ilyana (low or lower mid), Rhys (lower mid or mid), Laura (lower mid or mid), Bastian (low), Sanaki (low) etc. Not in order, but yeah.

FE5 was balanced between mages and physical units imo, FE4 too I suppose because of Mage Knights (even though there was only one..) and Holsety. FE6 was lopsided, FE7 was lopsided, FE8 was balanced enough. FE3 was kinda balanced I suppose.

coughPATHOFRADIANCEcough

Are you agreeing? Be more specific.

[Dat Nick]

Then Melee units are entirely dominant.

No, FEDS mages just suck. The problem lies in the units, not at all the class. There's living proof mages don't have to suck, and their names are Merric, Pent, Erk, Lugh, Sety, Asvel, Levin, et cetera...

Oh wait, the highest tier mage is Soren or Rhys! Hallelujah they're upper mid.

Then you've got mid tier ilyana, tormod, callil

bottom tier bastian

yes

because FE9 is the only game in the series

FE4 and 5, lolholsety in both, certainly never happened.

also pent ftw, and lugh and erk aren't far behind him

FE6 was lopsided

Lugh's fine. More than fine, actually.

FE7 was lopsided

Pent disagrees, and Erk's not too keen with it, either.

Are you agreeing? Be more specific.

I'm certainly not referring to the fact that even Bastian did more damage with Wind to any enemy than he did with a Stiletto.

mages included

Edited February 7, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[Lord Raven]

No, FEDS mages just suck. The problem lies in the units, not at all the class. There's living proof mages don't have to suck, and their names are Merric, Pent, Erk, Lugh, Sety, Asvel, Levin, et cetera...

Then... balance the mages some more? The fact that only one of them are in the upper tiers vs many, many others in the upper tiers + not another one until lower mid proves that there's more melee dominance.

because FE9 is the only game in the series

It was one example followed by countless others.

FE4 and 5, lolholsety in both, certainly never happened.

I said they were balanced between Melee and Magic. Where did I contradict you?

also pent ftw, and lugh and erk aren't far behind him

FE6 was pretty imbalanced.

You have Lugh, who's decent enough (eh durability problems, and decent enough killing portential I suppose. Enemies are pretty jacked, but he can at least double but has slow supports), Ray who's okay, Lilina/Cecilia who have their uses occasionally, Sophia and Niime who outright blew, Saul/Ellen who lacked offense until promotion, clarine who also lacks offense until promotion and still has pretty subpar offense, and Hugh who's ridiculously subpar. Against a myriad of good physical units.

Pent disagrees, and Erk's not too keen with it, either.

It's one of the more balanced, but I'm pretty sure physical units are still doing much better overall than magic units here.

I'm certainly not referring to the fact that even Bastian did more damage with Wind to any enemy than he did with a Stiletto.

... proof please.

Against enemies of course he does more damage with Wind, they're mainly physical units. Which was kinda his point. :/

[Rodykitty]

The problem lies in more that FEDS is more biased towards early game units than anything. Merric just happens to be part of that lineup.

If I had my own FE game, the main character would be balanced like Marth, all of his cronies and other early game characters would have mediocre growths, mid-game characters would actually be worth using over these, and the all powerful, omnipotent characters don't come towards the later third of the game.

EDIT: Thinking about it now, FE4 Generation 1 is kind of set up this way, except for that whole SIGURD thing and all.

Edited February 7, 2009 by Chainey

[Dat Nick]

... proof please.

http://reikken.awardspace.com/FE9EnemyStats/Mage.txt

enemy res blows.

There's your proof.

[dondon151]

Um, no.

You quite clearly said melee units dominate FE.

If a magic user is the best character in the game, that VERY clearly isn't the case.

Melee units dominate FE, melee units have poor res and are easy prey for a single PC magic unit. This is consistent with what I said. ps when I say dominate I mean that the majority of units in FE are physical. You seem to be misunderstanding.

No, they don't, and magic still deals a lot more damage even to MAGES, making the entire concept of swords pointless?

First, Eyrios starts with 11 str, so you're wrong. Second, Eyrios has higher str than mag on average and enemy mages have higher res than def on average. Eyrios will do more damage with swords. Third, assuming that IS won't be stupid and make every future MK a mounted mage with a novelty physical option, swords will have a purpose. Having access to both sides of the spectrum and being able to use both is better than only being able to attack from only one side.

[grandjackal]

The problem lies in more that FEDS is more biased towards early game units than anything. Merric just happens to be part of that lineup.

If I had my own FE game, the main character would be balanced like Marth, all of his cronies and other early game characters would have mediocre growths, mid-game characters would actually be worth using over these, and the all powerful, omnipotent characters don't come towards the later third of the game.

EDIT: Thinking about it now, FE4 Generation 1 is kind of set up this way, except for that whole SIGURD thing and all.

Sounds nice, but FE4 was more equipment based. Lex starts a weakener, gets the brave ax to be a killer/weakener, then he had the option of the pursuit ring as Tiltyu just had wrath and the only others who want it are fail like Noish and Arden.

Dammit, need to not go on a rant this time...But to the point, FE4...Main problem was if you didn't have a horse in that game or weren't Levin, you weren't doing much. Even at the starting chapter, Azel isn't doing much. That and FE4 just gave you a crapload of units to use at the start. If it were like that with say...an army the size of the one you start with in FE6, I'd agree, but FE4 it didn't matter because of the crapload of horse guys with canto you had from first chapter.

And of course..lol, Sigurd.

[Lord Raven]

http://reikken.awardspace.com/FE9EnemyStats/Mage.txt

enemy res blows.

There's your proof.

I don't know shit about enemy levels right now so

Bastian has 20 Atk with Stiletto and like 28 Atk with Thoron.

Sage

3 29 5 13 11 13 3 9 15

He does 11 damage with Stiletto. And like 13 with Bolganone, if he even has the A necessary (he starts with C).

Bolganone and Elthunder are probably more realistic.

11 22-23 2 9-10 6-7 9 2 5 10-11

15 x2 damage with Stiletto and 17-18 x2 with Bolganone.

And you're honestly going to say with a straight face that he does more with Wind than stiletto? He has like 21 attack with Wind.

Edited February 7, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Dat Nick]

15 x2 damage with Stiletto and 17-18 x2 with Bolganone.

Meaning more damage. I'm glad you agree.

[Lord Raven]

Wow holy shit

I'm certainly not referring to the fact that even Bastian did more damage with Wind to any enemy than he did with a Stiletto.

Bolganone has 9 might. Wind has 1 might.

Stiletto does 15 x2, Wind does 9-10 x2. Don't bring up your original point, and also take into considering that Bolganone even requires a higher Fire rank to pull off. Elthunder's your next best choice at 7 might, which is 15-16. Don't immediately change your stance because of what's convenient.

[dondon151]

If Bastian's str were as high as his mag, and if melee units didn't dominate FE9, mixed attacking would have a purpose. And since this is speculation about future FEs, it doesn't matter if Bastian doesn't have equivalent attacking stats or if melee units dominate FE9, since they're almost not relevant. IS probably gave sages the option of knives just for the purpose of more effective combat against magic units; it's too bad that knives suck and no one has a str stat even close to their mag stat.

[Dat Nick]

moving on to other stuff:

Units should differ statistically more than they did in Book 2. You can tell they just got lazy in Book 2 and just gave poor rough ideas of which characters would be at where after a few levels up and didn't tinker with growth rates at all. Merric and Elren even have the same bases FFS. They really need to do some shuffling around.

[grandjackal]

Yeah, you'd figure they'd at least make Elren a mage tank, but he's just Merric's shadow. It's odd. That and what the hell with Roshea? They made him cool in book 1, why'd they ruin him in the next?

That and make some characters blow less. Ryan needs much better growths to compensate for badbases, Warren needs a point in existing other than to help at the start, bring FE DS Matthis back (with his book 2 bases, he'd actually be pretty awesome), Make Chiki just not get doubled if she has enough AS to avoid it from there on, have Est have like FEDS Wolf growth, Revamp Roshea and Midia.

Poor Astram, Samson and Sheema though...Astram will never be good enough to top 5 extra chapters of miracle blade use and Samson having to go down with Sheema...

[Dat Nick]

That's gonna depend if Mercurius still doubles EXP.

Since it doesn't in FEDS.

[Seph]

Actually, I'd rather keep dismounting. It makes a lot of sense. It's bad statistically but..

Does it make sense for someone to go through a castle using a horse? To use a flyer to travel inside a castle?

[Dat Nick]

You people DO realize you CAN ride horses indoors, right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oNtCGfsQCU

...So....why wouldn't it make sense?

Edited February 13, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[Seph]

Yes, but it's just illogical.

Dismounting should be in every game.

...So....why wouldn't it make sense?

Because it's nothing like a horses habitat.

Edited February 13, 2009 by Shanan

[Dat Nick]

Yes, but it's just illogical.

what's illogical about it? etiquette?

Somehow I don't think that applies in war.

[Seph]

what's illogical about it? etiquette?

Somehow I don't think that applies in war.

Flyers and wyverns are nonsense. Too little space to fly. We have established that.

Coming to horses. It's just not their natural habitat. They're not used to that sort of thing. And how can horses climb stairs and etc.?

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I liked it better when no1 gave a damn about Kent/Sain/Florina using their mounts while storming Castle Caelin or when no1 cared about why Kyle and Forde were mounted in Tirado's chapter. Also when no1 gave a crap about having an all paladin team on indoor maps in FE9.

I wouldn't mind it if dismounting's optional but I don't like it when it's forced for indoor chapters =\

Edited February 13, 2009 by Levin

[grandjackal]

Actually, I'd rather keep dismounting. It makes a lot of sense. It's bad statistically but..

Does it make sense for someone to go through a castle using a horse? To use a flyer to travel inside a castle?

*snarls, barking madly*

[Rodykitty]

The main reason I like dismounting to stay in, and stay forced is because it changes the unit balance for different chapters. It also changes the types of units you face indoors, also changing the class equibilium slightly.

Is it realistic? Here's a better question. Does it help make the gameplay more interesting? I certainly think so.

Now in FE3 it wasn't much of a problem since there was no WTA, but even in a game with WTA Sword users should be less gimped since there are no longer mounted lance users and Axe users and Mages can take out Armors.

[grandjackal]

It certainly makes the gameplay sillier. "Hey, it seems I am on a horse where I can easier use lances and still thwack people with a sword, my mount being a tough animal that can take a shot or two and can travel at long distances at speeds greater than I. I'm just gonna go ahead and get off this thing..."

Also, WTA rids the reason of having things like Armorslayers. Problem with sowrds is that the swords themselves suck. Maybe if there were more lancebusters available that didn't break like twigs and sword users could grow magic to actually put magic swords to actual use...

[Rodykitty]

The only lance users you'll see indoors, assuming this is a traditional class setup based on FE3, are Armors and Soldiers since the dismounting rule applies to enemies as well as the player. If this is a game that has Soldier/Halberdier classes running around, then you yourself will have one as well.

Other units will be bow users, axe users, other sword users, and mages, all things sword users will handle fine. Soldiers suck. Armors have enough weaknesses to offset their WTA over swords.

Edited February 13, 2009 by Chainey

[grandjackal]

The only lance users you'll see indoors, assuming this is a traditional class setup based on FE3, are Armors and Soldiers since the dismounting rule applies to enemies as well as the player. If this is a game that has Soldier/Halberdier classes running around, then you yourself will have one as well.

Other units will be bow users, axe users, other sword users, and mages, all things sword users will handle fine. Soldiers suck. Armors have enough weaknesses to offset their WTA over swords.

Top part is true. Dismounting is still silly. That and there's frustration due to having moved on from this before in this very same topic.

Soldiers suck, but can still hit swordsmen. Axe users devestate them, mages and bowmen slap them around froma distance and most lancers have the defense to not give a damn about getting hit back from soldiers. Armor knights still giggle at sword damage and can still hit them back. Both usually have a distinct ability to pack a punch too, something most swordsmen can't handle well.

Does this make up for shitty range and only doing well against the few axe enemies AND the other two being better against sword enemies (lancers take them easy and Swordslayer actually rocking hard)? Not really...personally if swordsmen could grow magic for better magic sword use, I would love them more.

Delmud fanboi