Book 2

[NoNameAtAll]

EDIT: Didn't see your edit with Beowolf's Sword

Anyway. If Felgus were fatigued, that would put Delmud in. And he wouldn't be affected by the nerfs much either. And he could use the Beowolf Sword, again, if Felgus is fatigued.

Edited January 26, 2009 by Shiva

[Dat Nick]

Do you mean the Beo Sword?

Beo Sword is short for "Beowulf's Sword". Funny, you wouldn't expect a plain old steel sword to develop into something pretty handy. Granted it's hurt by the fact Wrath and Ambush semi-cancel each other out, but it's still nice.

Edited January 26, 2009 by MightyZagaro

[Lord Raven]

Too bad mounts are still pwning infantry overall because...

A: Indoor chapters aren't very common

B: Mounted units have a huge win on infantry on outdoor maps

C: Mounted units are pretty much on the same level as infantry when dismounted

Then they should tweak it a little if it's supposed to be a balancing act. Make indoor maps more common, make the penalties proportionate instead of set, etc. Just don't remove it altogether.

[Dat Nick]

Yes, don't remove it altogether. Keep it out altogether, and do what FE7 did: Tune down the cav stats, throw in an AK who's actually good, and bring back stuff like the Knight Crest. In addition to being worse overall, now the cavs are battling with the AK over promotion, and this will keep them out of top tier.

Proof: FE7 tiers. Also a mode like H5 where the defense would actually matter.

Now, instead of a pointless, annoying feature that doesn't do anything to overpowered units, we have a good gameplay design that DOES do several things to balance out overpowered units. Sounds like a winner to me.

Edited January 26, 2009 by MightyZagaro

[NoNameAtAll]

Then they should tweak it a little if it's supposed to be a balancing act. Make indoor maps more common, make the penalties proportionate instead of set, etc. Just don't remove it altogether.

Then you'd make units like Glade neigh unplayable while Felgus still laughs in the face of the nerfs.

[Dat Nick]

Actually, proportionate stat penalties would make Felgus unplayable or close, which is retarded for indoor chapters. He shouldn't get fucked over that badly.

That's why you keep the feature cut altogether and do something that actually nerfs the mounts without making them unplayable. They retain their move lead, they just don't have the ridiculous stats they used to, the entire reason they're considered broken anyway: They have roughly the same/better stats than guys like Ogma AND can move a hell of a lot farther. Uber stats and uber move. One has to go. Move defeats the entire purpose of being mounted, so we'll nerf their stats a touch, although not so much they won't be able to kill a few things. Add in Canto and Rescue to balance things out just so they still have a few uses, and things have gotten a lot more balanced already. And we didn't have to add in a single pointless retarded feature to do it!

Seriously. Dismounting was killed for a reason. It's been kept dead for six games for a reason. It has a high likelihood of staying dead for a reason.

Edited January 26, 2009 by MightyZagaro

[Lord Raven]

Then you'd make units like Glade neigh unplayable while Felgus still laughs in the face of the nerfs.

Proportionate = lower stats lose less stats? How would that automatically make Glade unplayable <_<

Dismounting adds to realism too while still keeping it balanced enough. Although I'd like to note that dismounted Cavs in FE3 have less movement than Mercs and stuff.

Dismounting was killed for a reason.

And I doubt neither of us know the actual reason.

[Dat Nick]

Dismounting adds to realism too while still keeping it balanced enough.

Realism is a problem when it fucks up gameplay mechanics. Let's throw out magic and fliers and staves, too, while we're at it. Oh, and if there's a remake of FE9, we can't have laguz, they're unrealistic. And Lehran's Medallion? An item that makes somebody insane by HOLDING it unless you're Mist? What is this, an episode of Penn and Teller: Bullshit!? We can't have THAT! And what, a guy who's armor can ONLY be hurt by a certian sword? Are you crazy? THAT has to go too! You can now kill the black knight in C11, or any other chapter!

Seriously, cut this realism argument. If that's your only argument, it won't work. Do it one way and you have to go all the way. A large point for FEDS is that it's one of the more balanced games in the series: To sacrifice that balance in the name of REALISM of all possible things is basically taking a shit on everything FEDS did.

And no, it doesn't balance things out, because proportionate stat penalties just fuck things over for mounted units, screws them over more than it should. We're talking about -5 in most stats to units with roughly the same stats as infantry, AND less move. Overdone much? Um, yes, that's making mounts USELESS in indoor chapters. My way of mount balance>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Dismounting.

And I doubt neither of us know the actual reason.

Use your noggin. IS woke up and realized the feature was bullshit. Why ELSE would it be dead for so damned long?

Edited January 26, 2009 by MightyZagaro

[Rodykitty]

I am for dismounting because it does change how certain units are played on certain chapters, which is a gameplay aspect. I personally like having variety in a game.

If I were to make one change to dismounting, it would likely to be not having a stat penalty upon dismounting, and letting all of the functional aspects of having a horse not being present and not having the main weapon being the major difference. This way, they'll still be good units, but you'll still want to use others that can get WTA.

Use your noggin. IS woke up and realized the feature was bullshit. Why ELSE would it be dead for so damned long?

The feature almost got revived, but I guess they wanted FEDS to be more like FE1 instead of FE3. Edited January 26, 2009 by FE3 Player

[Lord Raven]

Realism is a problem when it fucks up gameplay mechanics. Let's throw out magic and fliers and staves, too, while we're at it. Oh, and if there's a remake of FE9, we can't have laguz, they're unrealistic. And Lehran's Medallion? An item that makes somebody insane by HOLDING it unless you're Mist? What is this, an episode of Penn and Teller: Bullshit!? We can't have THAT! And what, a guy who's armor can ONLY be hurt by a certian sword? Are you crazy? THAT has to go too! You can now kill the black knight in C11, or any other chapter!

Way to miss the point. Like you always do.

Seriously, cut this realism argument. If that's your only argument, it won't work. Do it one way and you have to go all the way. A large point for FEDS is that it's one of the more balanced games in the series: To sacrifice that balance in the name of REALISM of all possible things is basically taking a shit on everything FEDS did.

How is it making it that frigging unbalanced? I'm not even sure where you stand on the unbalanced nonsense - you even said earlier that mounts would be on par with foot units if they were dismounted whereas you're saying now that they get massively nerfed and it throws off the balance of things.

And it's entirely realism. If there was no realism in this game, then we definitely wouldn't have permanent deaths. The thing you have to consider: it's basically our world, with magic that doesn't generally affect the physics of their world.

And no, it doesn't balance things out, because proportionate stat penalties just fuck things over for mounted units, screws them over more than it should. We're talking about -5 in most stats to units with roughly the same stats as infantry, AND less move. Overdone much? Um, yes, that's making mounts USELESS in indoor chapters. My way of mount

-1 or so for lower stats, up to -2 or -3 for higher stats. -5 seems too much.

Use your noggin. IS woke up and realized the feature was bullshit. Why ELSE would it be dead for so damned long?

By that logic

- Fatigue was bullshit

- Capture was bullshit

- Critical coefficient was bullshit (this was a decent feature, actually)

- apparently Arenas would've been bullshit for the entirety of FE9 and FE10

- etc etc etc

if you can give me an article or whatnot to show that IS hated dismounting and thus removed it, be my guest. Until then? They're just assumptions.

[Dat Nick]

I'm not even sure where you stand on the unbalanced nonsense - you even said earlier that mounts would be on par with foot units if they were dismounted whereas you're saying now that they get massively nerfed and it throws off the balance of things.

Massivley nerfed using your idea of proportional penalties, basically the same as infantry without it.

How is it making it that frigging unbalanced?

The uber units stay uber.

What's the god damned point?

The thing you have to consider: it's basically our world, with magic that doesn't generally affect the physics of their world.

And this is the ONLY reason you keep offering.

BEAUTIFUL.

-1 or so for lower stats, up to -2 or -3 for higher stats.

Only +3? Um, they're still going to be kicking the shit out of everything, just so you know, STILL making dismounting pointless.

- Fatigue was bullshit

Fatigue was designed specifically for FE5's structure: They figured nobody would care being forced to use lower tier units since you could easily max their stats anyway.

- Capture was bullshit

You realize the only reason capture existed in FE5 was because weapons were ridiculously expensive and you basically never got any funds, right? You put capture in FEDS's economy and watch it get even more ridiculous than it already is. Capture, was, again, designed to work on FE5's structure. And ONLY FE5's structure.

Critical coefficient was bullshit (this was a decent feature, actually)

Yes?

Shiva has a 20, then an 80% chance to crit with an iron sword, 100% if he gets some way to increase his crit. That's bullshit, sorry. Even for FE5 you don't need that much overkill. In fact, in FE5 it doesn't take a whole lot to achieve overkill. Enemies are actually pretty weak.

apparently Arenas would've been bullshit for the entirety of FE9 and FE10

Yes?

FE9 has sol, which is more than enough to upset the balance in arenas severly.

FE10 has infinite battle save. And sol.

- etc etc etc

etc etc etc? You failed to provide one decent example. Why should I believe one exists?

if you can give me an article or whatnot to show that IS hated dismounting and thus removed it, be my guest.

Dismounting was absent for six games straight, and doesn't have the excuse of being programmed to work on FE5's engine, like fatigue and capture, because all it ever did was keep the top units in the top and make guys like Glade and Fred fail even more.

There you go.

[Lord Raven]

And this is the ONLY reason you keep offering.

BEAUTIFUL.

Because it's still a legit reason to do so. It's meant to be a war like it would be in our world, except with Mages and stuff. Portraying a sense of realism within it is something they'd want to do.

For the record I think permanent death is pointless going by your logic because when characters get killed people restart anyway and it pisses people off so therefore they should remove it for convenience sake instead of realism.

Only +3? Um, they're still going to be kicking the shit out of everything, just so you know, STILL making dismounting pointless.

The uber units stay uber.

Not really... considering their move goes below a foot unit's.

IIRC +3 is still more than they got docked in FE5's dismounting. +1 or +2 for lower stats works out.

Fatigue was designed specifically for FE5's structure: They figured nobody would care being forced to use lower tier units since you could easily max their stats anyway.

Something tells me that game designers don't keep "tiers" in mind when they design. They may try to balance it but they don't really keep "tiers" in mind. Regardless, the point is that it makes you use units you wouldn't normally use anyway but it works on basically any structure that isn't FE10.

You realize the only reason capture existed in FE5 was because weapons were ridiculously expensive and you basically never got any funds, right? You put capture in FEDS's economy and watch it get even more ridiculous than it already is. Capture, was, again, designed to work on FE5's structure. And ONLY FE5's structure.

Actually it could work perfectly well in FE7 where Funds are short early on. Even if you sell the Red Gem, that's basically only enough money for like 10 or 15 items (depending on what you buy) and it's easy to go through weapons fast.

Or with the GMs in FE10 because their Funds are also short.

Shiva has a 20, then an 80% chance to crit with an iron sword, 100% if he gets some way to increase his crit. That's bullshit, sorry. Even for FE5 you don't need that much overkill. In fact, in FE5 it doesn't take a whole lot to achieve overkill. Enemies are actually pretty weak.

That's a character problem, not a problem with the mechanic itself.

FE9 has sol, which is more than enough to upset the balance in arenas severly.

So did FE5.

Going on, not only is the activation rate low but it's limited to a select class of characters + they might want to use other skills + there's four occults.

FE10 has infinite battle save. And sol.

Not on hard mode. And to keep in with the story, I don't think an Arena would've worked in Part IV.

Dismounting was absent for six games straight, and doesn't have the excuse of being programmed to work on FE5's engine, like fatigue and capture, because all it ever did was keep the top units in the top and make guys like Glade and Fred fail even more.

There you go.

That's implied fact, which is different than actual fact. You're declaring this as actual fact, that of which it is not because you have little word from IS.

[Dat Nick]

Because it's still a legit reason to do so.

No, it isn't.

For the record I think permanent death is pointless going by your logic because when characters get killed people restart anyway and it pisses people off so therefore they should remove it for convenience sake instead of realism.

FEDS eliminated a huge portion of restarting due to encouraging players to kill off units they won't use, and adding generics.

Not really... considering their move goes below a foot unit's.

1 lower move on a few chapters.

Being only slightly worse than nonmounts on said chapters.

Owning nonmounts on outdoor chapters.

What does this accomplish? Nothing.

Something tells me that game designers don't keep "tiers" in mind when they design.

Yes, they totally didn't intend for Dagda to suck and for Othin not to kick the shit out of him.

The lower-end charactr, such as prepromotes, can easily be capped out via scroll abuse. Since FE5 was so damned abusable, they figured the fatigue system could be easily balanced out. In other FEs, where there are no scrolls and higher stat caps? Not so much. Can't hold it against FE3 since fatigue wasn't invented yet.

Actually it could work perfectly well in FE7 where Funds are short early on.

not really? Also, what about the latergame where funds AREN'T short and you get huge clumps of gold handed to you? That's basically saying "Hey, you, go buy a ton of stat boosters. I mean, you can easily do it with capture, lol."

'Or with the GMs in FE10 because their Funds are also short."

And that's why the GMs have Heather. And it's a damn goood thing too, because she'd be certian bottom tier without it.

That's a character problem, not a problem with the mechanic itself.

It IS a problem with the mechanic. 4x extra crit is just stupid. Hell, even a 2 is stupid. CCR is overpowering, and should stay dead.

So did FE5.

Yeah. How else do you think they found out Sol was broken? Go on, Arena Shiva, and tell me how often he dies. It's really not that hard without states. Why? Sol.

Going on, not only is the activation rate low

In FE9? No, not really. Skill% really isn't that low unless you're Mak.

limited to a select class of characters

Yeah.

A select class of characters that's already the best class in the game by a long shot.

they might want to use other skills

Not really?

Wrath works better on Neph.

Adept works better on people who actually need it.

Vantage doesn't really help.

there's four occults.

And only one other mastery skill that doesn't suck.

Not on hard mode.

Sol still exists on Hard.

You're declaring this as actual fact, that of which it is not because you have little word from IS.

You make it sound like it takes Robin the boy wonder to figure this shit out. If IS actually liked the feature, it'd be back. They didn't bring capture back because it breaks the typical FE ecomony now. They didn't bring fatigue back because there's no scrolls and low stat caps to max out even the failest of units. They didn't bring dismounting back because it's an awful feature.

[Gemini-Saga]

I'm in favor of Dismounting just if can use both weapons...

like a Pegasus using Spear and Sword, a DracoKnight using Axe and Lances... if that exists I Accept Dismounting.

Capture was Awesome in FE5 I farmed so much ReWarp Staff I had almost an entire Army of Sages XD

If that came back I'll Be glad but make it have more Purpose in the game the game like chapter mission Capture The Enemy Bosses and so on...

Fatigue, I don't like it very much since I Always had the character that recruits other unit with Fatigue in the chapter that I need that Unit >_<.

just my 2 cents

[Lord Raven]

No, it isn't.

Explain permanent death.

FEDS eliminated a huge portion of restarting due to encouraging players to kill off units they won't use, and adding generics.

I doubt this was fully the reason. I'm also willing to bet it's for helping out newbie players who often times do get their units killed.

1 lower move on a few chapters.

Then add more indoor chapters to complement this.

Being only slightly worse than nonmounts on said chapters.

Slightly worse? Their stats and move go lower.

Owning nonmounts on outdoor chapters.

Because of their move. Which dismounting nerfs.

Yes, they totally didn't intend for Dagda to suck and for Othin not to kick the shit out of him.

I'm pretty sure giving Nino good growths intended for Nino to be good but look where that took us.

The lower-end charactr, such as prepromotes, can easily be capped out via scroll abuse. Since FE5 was so damned abusable, they figured the fatigue system could be easily balanced out. In other FEs, where there are no scrolls and higher stat caps? Not so much.

FE7 has a bunch of usable characters, and hell a fatigue system there could've been worthwhile too.

not really? Also, what about the latergame where funds AREN'T short and you get huge clumps of gold handed to you? That's basically saying "Hey, you, go buy a ton of stat boosters. I mean, you can easily do it with capture, lol."

Then you don't need to use capture anymore?

And that's why the GMs have Heather. And it's a damn good thing too, because she'd be certian bottom tier without it.

Heather can't even steal a Steel Axe unless she gets like three or four levels. Which is hard to get because... it's hard mode and her strength/weapons suck.

(I liked counter critical, by the way).

Yeah. How else do you think they found out Sol was broken? Go on, Arena Shiva, and tell me how often he dies. It's really not that hard without states. Why? Sol.

Then why didn't they take out the Arena from FE5? Surely they'd have found out before releasing the game.

In FE9? No, not really. Skill% really isn't that low unless you're Mak.

oh I thought it was skill/2%

In which case nobody even needs the Arena by the time they get Sol.

A select class of characters that's already the best class in the game by a long shot.

So they can't even use the Arena for the class of characters that aren't the best class in the game? That's stupid.

Wrath works better on Neph.

You can get an extra Wrath scroll. Nephenee already has Wrath anyway.

Adept works better on people who actually need it.

The only people I can think of for this are Rhys or Gatrie/Brom.

Vantage+Wrath works well, also.

Sol still exists on Hard.

Not Battle Saves.

You make it sound like it takes Robin the boy wonder to figure this shit out. If IS actually liked the feature, it'd be back. They didn't bring capture back because it breaks the typical FE ecomony now. They didn't bring fatigue back because there's no scrolls and low stat caps to max out even the failest of units. They didn't bring dismounting back because it's an awful feature.

That's your interpretation.

I personally think they got a couple second opinions on FE5's difficulty and decided to take Fatigue out as a result. I don't know why they took out Capture (breaking the FE economy is not the reason I'd think of, I'm actually willing to guess that the enemies [in FE6 anyway] are too powerful to be captured and FE7/8 run on the exact same engine as 6).

For dismounting? They had it in FE3 potential to balance the extra movement of mounts indoors, where it's also more realistic to dismount indoors anyway. Plus, in FE5 there are a bunch of indoor portions anyway so it actually works to balance characters there. Though, units that fail end up failing harder; which is largely irrelevant because if something that's already terrible gets worse, then it doesn't matter much because both version suck anyway lol...

better units that dismount have lower stats + move than foot soldiers at this point and considering how FE5 actually does have a bunch of indoor portions it works to balance it just fine.

If "realism" can be thrown out the window in favor of gameplay (by the way, the gameplay is as a result of the plot often times; they won't throw away realism for gameplay), then we should have like pink dwarves so they can give our units lols and somehow give them HP as a result. Or Meteorites filled with candy should drop down on the world constantly and make your units faster because candy makes you hyper. etc

Edited January 27, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[dondon151]

Too bad mounts are still pwning infantry overall because...

A: Indoor chapters aren't very common False. In FE5, 4, 4x, 5, 8x, 11x, 12x, 18, 20, 21x, 24, 24x, F... not to mention those maps that are half indoors and the few outdoor maps where mounts don't really perform better than infantry.

B: Mounted units have a huge win on infantry on outdoor maps True.

C: Mounted units are pretty much on the same level as infantry when dismounted False. They lose by 1 move, lose their primary weapon type, and lose a marginal amount of stats. That puts them decisively worse than infantry on indoor maps.

That's still not as high as most of the rest of the cavs are. Alan and Lance are Top tier. Kieran and Oscar are Top tier. Cain and Abel are Top tier. ...See any pattern?

They're two slots under top tier, depending on tier list. Stop nitpicking with details that don't matter; you know that they are good units and have a very high chance of being played.

You initially said that Kent and Sain didn't even make high tier, which is blatantly wrong.

No, it doesn't, because now instead of raping your infantry, they're neck and neck, but this doesn't even come close to compensating for how much more useful your cavs are in outdoor chapters, which are in far greater quantity.

Not neck and neck; I can't even imagine how such decisive disadvantages can give the appearance of the two being neck and neck.

^ totally irrelevant to what I just said, poster very clearly did not comprehend entire idea at all

I fail to see how it's irrelevant. Maybe you didn't express your idea very well at all.

A comparison between classes in general is more relevant than a comparison between certain units of certain classes, as I can easily pull a Dieck vs. Treck or Guy vs. Kent comparison and conclude that infantry beats mounts. Your "don't make cavs demigods in the stats department" suggestion isn't a solution that makes dismounting unnecessary in any way, since nerfing their stats reduces their viability in all instances whereas including dismounting only reduces their viability in certain instances (which is the point of dismounting...).

There not being 4 Knight Crests doesn't mean that you're not going to use 4 cavaliers. Use them all until level 20 and ditch the ones that don't promote.

Except no. Fatigue gave a reason for lower tier characters to see use in normal play. Dismounting kept overpowered characters overpowered.

Say that the average map has a 6 unit deployment limit. Fatigue encourages you to keep 11 in rotation. Dismounting penalties encourage you to keep 11 rotation. Fatigue isn't even a huge factor for any melee unit, anyway, and it stops being a factor lategame unless you're Lara or a staff user.

Edited January 27, 2009 by dondon151

[NoNameAtAll]

That's implied fact, which is different than actual fact. You're declaring this as actual fact, that of which it is not because you have little word from IS.

So unless we have word from IS, it's NOT fact that guys like Fred, Glade and (lol) Conomore fail when dismounted and guys like Felgus pretty much laugh at the nerfs given?

Dot. Dot. Dot.

[dondon151]

Two different things. One is fact with numbers to back it up (Felgus > Glade no matter what), the other is an assumption masquerading as fact (IS removed FE5 mechanics because they were dumb).

You pretty much just helped Nathan Graves illustrate the difference between the two...

Edited January 27, 2009 by dondon151

[Dat Nick]

FE5, 4, 4x, 5, 8x, 11x, 12x, 18, 20, 21x, 24, 24x, F

Not even close to half, and irrelevant because cavs still pwn infantry in general.

alse. They lose by 1 move, lose their primary weapon type, and lose a marginal amount of stats.

Yeah, too bad their stats are either leaps and bounds ahead of infantry or just slightly on par with them.

And it's not like they needed their primary weapon, since FE5 enemies really aren't that hard to kill. FE5 actually has some of the most pathetic enemy stats in the series overall.

Stop nitpicking with details that don't matter; you know that they are good units and have a very high chance of being played.

But not nearly as good as Alan/Lance, Cain/Abel, et cetera.

Not neck and neck; I can't even imagine how such decisive disadvantages can give the appearance of the two being neck and neck.

Because the disadvantages are ridiculously marginal, and just make mounts own infantry LESS.

ince nerfing their stats reduces their viability in all instances whereas including dismounting only reduces their viability in certain instances (which is the point of dismounting...).

Um, no? Instead of having better move and the same/better stats as other units, they have better move and worse stats. It balances out. You make it sound like they actually can't kill or tank things anymore. All this does is allow guys like Ogma to actually compete with them.

Rough example: Buff Ogma's defense back to it's FE3 level, 30% growth, and kick his starting level back to level 2 with the same bases, but with one one extra strength and defense. Kick one strength and defense off the cavs. This already brings Ogma and the cavs MUCH closer together. And unlike dismounting, it makes sense: You would think unmounted units would actually get something to compensate for getting served by cavs, when in reality, they don't.

Use them all until level 20 and ditch the ones that don't promote.

Not being bought to Endgame, or even not being used until promotion, is obviously going to hurt a unit's usefulness.

Third, That's STILL not what I said. Between cavs nerfed and armor knights giving them competition for knight crests, cavs don't dominate the field anymore. Billion of times more efficient than dismounting, because IT ACTUALLY DID SOMETHING TO BALANCE OUT OVERPOWERED CHARACTERS, SOMETHING DISMOUNTING FAILED TO DO.

Dismounting penalties encourage you to keep 11 rotation.

And they fail at it because dismounted units are basically on par with infantry rather than owning them.

I say again: All dismounting ever did was keep the top characters in the top [Cain, Abel, Fergus, Fin, Brighton, etc] and made low tier characters [Kashim, Glade, Selphina]even worse. It was a horrible, imbalanced feature, and thank the goddess it's gone.

Edited January 27, 2009 by MightyZagaro

[dondon151]

Not even close to half, and irrelevant because cavs still pwn infantry in general.

36.4% of all chapters are indoor exclusive in FE5. Round that up to 40% for the half-half maps and infantry have lots of opportunities to shine. Or, at least outperform dismounts.

Yeah, too bad their stats are either leaps and bounds ahead of infantry or just slightly on par with them.

Because the disadvantages are ridiculously marginal, and just make mounts own infantry LESS.

Slightly on par with less move means they're worse, and 1 move is, in my experiences, kind of a big deal. Especially considering how indoor maps are generally very narrow, sticking 5 move dismounts in front restricts infantry to 5 move and sticking 6 move infantry in front means that dismounts are always seeing action a turn late.

And it's not like they needed their primary weapon, since FE5 enemies really aren't that hard to kill. FE5 actually has some of the most pathetic enemy stats in the series overall.

Armors are pretty damn hard to kill without crits or armor-effective weapons, and not everyone has a good PCC.

Um, no? Instead of having better move and the same/better stats as other units, they have better move and worse stats. It balances out. You make it sound like they actually can't kill or tank things anymore. All this does is allow guys like Ogma to actually compete with them.

Rough example: Buff Ogma's defense back to it's FE3 level, 30% growth, and kick his starting level back to level 2 with the same bases, but with one one extra strength and defense. Kick one strength and defense off the cavs. This already brings Ogma and the cavs MUCH closer together. And unlike dismounting, it makes sense: You would think unmounted units would actually get something to compensate for getting served by cavs, when in reality, they don't.

Why are dismounting and character tailoring mutually exclusive? So you kick a couple of stat points off the cavs, who are two mounted units in the entire game, and stick a couple of stat points onto Ogma, who is one infantry unit in the entire game. Where does that leave the rest of the cast? Let's kick 20 stat points into Gordin so that makes up for the archer class's inherent shortcomings! Let's just adjust stats everywhere so that everything is "balanced" according to the way that you presented it!

Or we could tweak stat points slightly differently so that everything is "balanced" with dismounting factoring into implying that infantry units are stronger indoors and mounted units are stronger outdoors...

IMO, the more specialization that an SRPG is intended to have, the more depth it has. Otherwise we'd always be sticking with the same type of unit in every playthrough.

Not being bought to Endgame, or even not being used until promotion, is obviously going to hurt a unit's usefulness.

Matthew isn't brought to endgame and that certainly doesn't seem to hurt his usefulness by any significant margin. Neither is Oswin. If as the 4th cavalier, you're still more useful without a promotion than the 1st armor knight with a promotion... you're still using the 4th cavalier even if he won't be promoted the last 2/3 of the game.

Third, That's STILL not what I said. Between cavs nerfed and armor knights giving them competition for knight crests, cavs don't dominate the field anymore. Billion of times more efficient than dismounting, because IT ACTUALLY DID SOMETHING TO BALANCE OUT OVERPOWERED CHARACTERS, SOMETHING DISMOUNTING FAILED TO DO.

Cavaliers have competition from armors? Units with 7 move face competition from units with 4 move? Armors lose terribly to cavs in ranked runs because of 3 less move and they even lose to other infantry because of 1 less move.

I say again: All dismounting ever did was keep the top characters in the top [Cain, Abel, Fergus, Fin, Brighton, etc] and made low tier characters [Kashim, Glade, Selphina]even worse. It was a horrible, imbalanced feature, and thank the goddess it's gone.

Then nerf the top tiers and buff the bottom tiers? This has nothing to do with dismounting at all.

[Clonez]

Wasn't dismounting made to balance the mounted characters???

[Lord Raven]

Pretty much what we're arguing.

[Dat Nick]

36.4% of all chapters are indoor exclusive in FE5. Round that up to 40% for the half-half maps and infantry have lots of opportunities to shine. Or, at least outperform dismounts.

Too bad they, you know, DON'T outperform dismounts.

and 1 move is, in my experiences, kind of a big deal

As much as a big deal as 2 move and canto on more chapters? Yeah, that's what I thought.

Armors are pretty damn hard to kill without crits or armor-effective weapons, and not everyone has a good PCC.

Brighton, about the only example of this, has Wrath.

So you kick a couple of stat points off the cavs, who are two mounted units in the entire game, and stick a couple of stat points onto Ogma, who is one infantry unit in the entire game.

Somebody missed the part where this was an example and obviously wasn't all we were going to do.

Where does that leave the rest of the cast? Let's kick 20 stat points into Gordin so that makes up for the archer class's inherent shortcomings!

Maybe not that drastic, but yes, LET'S. The archer class seriously needs a reason to exist.

Or we could tweak stat points slightly differently so that everything is "balanced" with dismounting factoring into implying that infantry units are stronger indoors and mounted units are stronger outdoors...

OR we could keep the feature dead like it deserves to be and implement changes that actually do something to tone down the top characters and not make the weak characters fail even harder.

Furthermore, even if you DO manage to balance this horrid abomination of a feature, what's the point? Some units are better than others 50% of the time and other units are better than other units 50% of the time. No, let's just make it simple and make all units equal 100% of the time. It's easier, doesn't require excessive messing with the statistics, and it doesn't make the low tier mounts fail at life even harder.

Matthew isn't brought to endgame and that certainly doesn't seem to hurt his usefulness by any significant margin.

Matthew's a thief. Big difference.

Neither is Oswin.

lolwut?

Cavaliers have competition from armors?

Not in FEDS, the entire reason I'm proposing a buffed armor knight in the damn first place.

Units with 7 move face competition from units with 4 move? Armors lose terribly to cavs in ranked runs because of 3 less move and they even lose to other infantry because of 1 less move.

Oswin and Gatrie [RD] sez hai.

This has nothing to do with dismounting at all.

Yes, it DOES, because dismounting just makes Kashim suck more than he already does. Same with Villuck, and Machis, and Glade, and Fred, and Selphina, etc etc etc. What does it do in return? It keeps Fergus, Brighton, Abel, Cain, and Fin in top tier and has basically no effect on Carrion/Alva/Kein's positions.

None of these characters need to suck more than they already do. Keep their crappy stats but add canto/rescue, and now they actually have a purpose and can qualify for at least Low tier.

Edited January 28, 2009 by MightyZagaro

[Lord Raven]

Yes, it DOES, because dismounting just makes Kashim suck more than he already does. Same with Villuck, and Machis, and Glade, and Fred, and Selphina, etc etc etc. What does it do in return? It keeps Fergus, Brighton, Abel, Cain, and Fin in top tier and has basically no effect on Carrion/Alva/Kein's positions.

This sounds like more of a character balance thing than a class balance thing. <_<

[Dat Nick]

Characters play a MUCH bigger part in balance than classes.

Pegasi would outshine infantry more in RD if there was an actual decent Pegasi in the game.

Similarly, the Dark Mage class would outperform Mage class in FEDS if you could actually get a good DM and not a fail to above average one.