Book 2

[Lord Raven]

Then in order to preserve realism and give them a nerf to move, dismounting is cool. If there's a supposed "perfect" character balance, this is obviously going to put them below foot units indoors and above them outdoors. The individual character balance is the only flaw.

Edited January 29, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[grandjackal]

He has a point. Class balance is cool and all, but the individual characters are incredibly imbalanced in most FEs. It isn't that paladins are godlike, it's the characters who just HAPPEN to be godlike. Like lets say there was a character who was an armor knight. Armor knights suck due to lack of mobility, but Oswin rocks because they gave him stuff to do and he had great stats in all the right places. If they gave an armor knight celerity, he'd automatically be pretty rocking, but you wouldn't say armor knights rock.

Paladins are overpowered simply because the ones you get can do anything anyways, just it's even more overpowered because they're doing it much faster thanks to their mobility. Sain and Kent are awesome statistically, but rather meh thanks to sain's affinity and kent's lousy support options (not that sain's are any better). Lowen wouldn't be so awesome if he had something like Darkness or Wind, would he? Most of the reason Lowen rocks is because he has an awesome affinity that fixes his problems and awesome supporters immediately.

Cain and Abel are awesome because they're godly and you get them first chapter. Luke Cecile and Roddy are awesome for the same reason while throwing in Sirius, the godly already promoted rape tank. FE4 was soooo biased to horse riding units that it's not even funny. FE5 gave you Fin...a balanced growth guy with a freaking brave lance at the start. He had a small break during the prison chapters, not that it hurts him any. FE6 had the same thing with Cain and Abel, but threw in Percival who starts off already better than anyone. FE8....The cast was in my belief rather balanced, but it doesn't help that the enemies are crazy weak. Seth and Franz however are crazy. The other two cavs were rather meh for the same reasons sain and kent were. FE9 was soooo biased towards the paladins. Knight ward, great growths, Titania, Oscar's earth affinity, Keiran having axes the whole time ina lance heavy game, Bonus exp making Makalov usable to the statistically best one out of all of them, able to pick axes after promotion if they don't have them, freaking Sol...

FE10's mobility reduction indoors didn't magically fix them, nor did their miserable caps. Not with the time inbetween their start and their caps, they still could have been statistically better. All they did was give you one awesome one instead, her name was Titania. Oscar's earth affinity didn't exactly fix his might problem, but at least he could dodge well. The CRK would be awesome under better joining conditions and Fiona....sucks.

It would be a hard thing to balance paladins. I would think that having squads of enemies with horseslayer weapons or more enemies with ambus(vantage) would help. But I can't magically fix it as I'm not a programmer of the games. However, dismounting was just dumb. All it did was in FE3 made the cavs even MORE awesome until they got their speed up to double with lances at which they never did it again unless forced. But even then, all they'd be is mercenaries with a point less move. Dismounting didn't help in FE5 at all because of the fatigue system. You could chose not to use them, and they'd recover their fatigue for a map. It removes any reason at all to play a horse rider indoors and is infact advantageous to them.

I'd prefer IS went with character balance next time. If this means the enemies have imbalanced classes and thus makes some enemies a challenge, that would be even better. I'd rather be like "Shit, enemy heroes!" rather than "Uh-oh, that one single dude has a killer/brave weapon...". I can understand why they did class balance in this game (wi-fi, most characters being garbage no matter what), but when all is put to situation, FE1 is hard to fix. What is there to do about Thomas and Est? They could have given those two the same treatment as Wolf and Zagaro did. Why THEY of all people got it is beyond me though. Especially with the lack of treatment the other prepromotes got MINERVAAAAAAA!!! .

And there is my long winded thoughts on the current situation of the discussion...

tl;dr, characters>class

[Kiddo]

Also, I thought my whole thing with the "Why are horses not allowed in buildings but Dragons are perfectly OK?" was a bit too reasonable an argument to just quickly throw aside like it was.

[Rodykitty]

EDIT: Nvm. I know what you actually mean.

Edited January 29, 2009 by Chainey

[thunderstrife]

So this has completely become whether we think dismounting is useful or not? how about people just let it go? I'd say it's almost definite its not coming back, so it's just wasted energy arguing over it, we should just stay on topic.

If they remake Book 2, I hope they don't leave things out in the story - Book 2 had pretty good development, plotwise and character-wise (for most important characters).

It'd be nice if they added supports but honestly it's not necessary, Book 2 was good character-wise even without them, in my opinion.

[Rodykitty]

So this has completely become whether we think dismounting is useful or not? how about people just let it go? I'd say it's almost definite its not coming back, so it's just wasted energy arguing over it, we should just stay on topic.

Because even though it's useless from a player perspective, it's still an interesting touch.

[Ike-Mike]

... and because Shadow Dragon's data showed that IS was thinking about a reintroduction to dismounting so it's interesting to hear what others have to say about the feature.

Edited January 30, 2009 by Ike-Mike

[grandjackal]

It wasn't even a nerf. All it did in FE3 was make cavs even MORE awesome so they could double until they got the speed to double with lances instead, indoors basically being mercenaries/heroes with one less move and probably better stats anyways.

FE5, it just gave you a reason to have your mounted units rest for a chapter, so because of the fatigue system it actually makes them EASIER to use. Dismounting would have nerfed them, but the fatigue system just gave you a reason to let your mounted units to break so they'll be all rested up for the outdoor chapters.

Paladins need a nerf, not a buff. I'm glad dismounting is gone. Who here doesn't want to see it next game?

Edited January 30, 2009 by Grandjackal

[dondon151]

FE5, it just gave you a reason to have your mounted units rest for a chapter, so because of the fatigue system it actually makes them EASIER to use. Dismounting would have nerfed them, but the fatigue system just gave you a reason to let your mounted units to break so they'll be all rested up for the outdoor chapters.

This makes no sense. Dismounting that restricts the potential of mounted units indoors makes them easier to use? I think you're wrongly associating unit usage with unit selection. Then you say that dismounting is essentially a nonfactor because of fatigue? Even if fatigue weren't present, the need to dismount still affects unit choices in indoor chapters. Your implication that dismounting has a very negligible effect because fatigue is the main determinant of unit selection is wrong - dismounting and fatigue are equally important factors to consider in unit selection and don't always coincide.

[grandjackal]

This makes no sense. Dismounting that restricts the potential of mounted units indoors makes them easier to use? I think you're wrongly associating unit usage with unit selection. Then you say that dismounting is essentially a nonfactor because of fatigue? Even if fatigue weren't present, the need to dismount still affects unit choices in indoor chapters. Your implication that dismounting has a very negligible effect because fatigue is the main determinant of unit selection is wrong - dismounting and fatigue are equally important factors to consider in unit selection and don't always coincide.

I'd rather have fresh mounts outdoors than tired dismounts indoors. I'm just saying fatigue pretty much made dismounting pointless aside from teh rare occurance of indoor segments in outdoor chapters (all 2 of them, one where most of the battle happens outdoors anyways). At least that's my view. All dismounting does is make you have a tired mount the next chapter. IF fatigue didn't exist, there would be a point. It gives a mount a CLEAR reason just not to be indoors. In exchange, they'll be able to rock the chapters afterwards due to resting up. It doesn't make them suck indoors, it just makes them that much more awesome outdoors.

[Dat Nick]

Dismounting that restricts the potential of mounted units indoors makes them easier to use?

It doesn't make them all that harder. Just ask Fin, Fergus, Carrion, and Brighton.

And it DOES obstruct low tier units. Kashim, Glade, Fred, etc REALLY don't need to take it harder than they already are. Kashim would probably qualify for at least Low-mid if dismounting didn't totally fuck him over.

I've said it once, I'll say it a thousand times. All dismounting ever did was handicap low tier units even further and keep the top mounted characters IN THE TOP. It's a horrible imbalanced feature and IS killed it and kept it dead for a reason.

Some units being awesome 50% of the time and others being awesome 50% of the time is just a goddamn mess, especially when mounted units couldn't give less a flying damn about the nerf and still kick ass fine, and actually own infantry outdoors harder than infantry own them indoors. 2 move and canto outdoors>1 move indoors. All units usable 100% of the time, plz. And note how I say usable. Which means nerfed mounts. It beats the living shit out of having one squad of both infantry and mounts ready to rape an entire chapter whatever the situation calls for, mounts still being dominant.

As Jackal said, the guys RIDING the mounts are the problem. Not the actual mounts.

[grandjackal]

A proper nerf would be to either A. make more enemies with horseslayer weapons, or B. Make them sword only, upon promotion getting lances. Even RD didn't nerf actual paladins, they just gave you a legion of crap ones outside of Titania and a bit of Oscar.

But hey, we aren't programming the games here, so...best we can get thinking about it.

[Dat Nick]

you're forgetting the stat nerf

far more needed

[dondon151]

Some units being awesome 50% of the time and others being awesome 50% of the time is just a goddamn mess, especially when mounted units couldn't give less a flying damn about the nerf and still kick ass fine, and actually own infantry outdoors harder than infantry own them indoors. 2 move and canto outdoors>1 move indoors.

Indoor maps have less wide-open spaces and more narrow corridors, so 1 move indoors is much more valuable than 1 move outdoors. 1 move indoors is not as valuable as 2 move+remove outdoors, but it's certainly a lot more comparable than you make it out to be. If infantry actually had a 2 move advantage indoors, those dismounted units would be totally unusable, whereas infantry units can still be used outdoors. Diminishing marginal returns of move, etc.

All units usable 100% of the time, plz.

Sorry, but this will never happen. As much as I want all characters in SSBM viable 100% of the time or all Pokemon usable in OU, any game that has specialized characters is inherently imbalanced.

This also almost defeats the purpose of an SRPG. Advance Wars does not have all units usable 100% of the time because otherwise the strategic aspect of an SRPG is completely nullified. FE would just be "charge every chapter with your favorite units because unit selection matters little." And I think unit selection already doesn't matter very much in FE bar stuff like desert maps or defense maps, so dismounting would contribute to this aspect.

And note how I say usable. Which means nerfed mounts. It beats the living shit out of having one squad of both infantry and mounts ready to rape an entire chapter whatever the situation calls for, mounts still being dominant.

I'm afraid this comparison is completely subjective and doesn't help you prove your point. You're saying x>y with no qualification except for a small blurb tacked onto the end.

As Jackal said, the guys RIDING the mounts are the problem. Not the actual mounts.

OK, great, fix the dudes riding the mounts and keep dismounting in. Two solutions aren't mutually exclusive and I'd say that both are better than one or the other.

Edited January 31, 2009 by dondon151

[grandjackal]

you're forgetting the stat nerf

far more needed

FE1 and 3 they were overpowered because they had generally the same stats as the other kill guys so they were the same with higher move. FE4 they were overpowered because the giant damned maps MADE them so. FE5 made them overpowered because dismounting was pointless thanks to the fatigue system forcing units not to be brought onto a map at times anyways and thus only made mounts know when they could take a break. FE6 cavs were overpowered because A. Support system making Allen and Lance holy WTF, in turn helping Noah greatly, Treck grew into something amazing and Percival was just h4x thanks to hard mode bonuses, and B. They had the whole damned weapon triangle at promotion, having a decent protion of it beforehand. It's the only reason Lowen rocks too, he would suck without his supports. Even Kent and Sain are pretty meh. FE8, EVERYONE was overpowered. FE9, cavs were overpowered because...damn, how WEREN'T they overpowered!? Great stats, great mobility, canto, all get axes after promotion...Nevermind one of them is Earth affinity that supports another kick-ass earth. FE10 it wasn't that cavs were nerfed, but just that most of them sucked this time. Titania STILL rocked. Being a cav didn't stop her. All lower caps does is limit the time they're badass, not stop them from being so. FEDS, only ones that can be considered overpowered are Cain and Abel because they are there day 1 and have great growths everywhere. All other possible cavs have one strength and another weakness (Nabarl takes time at first and in H5 would prefer to be myrmidon anyways, Gordin has great defense but bad everything else, Vyland is the definition of average, Matthis has a speed problem).

Class balance only deals with enemies. When it comes to class balance on YOUR team, individual characters can play a bigger part in it. Except in FE1, 3 and 6 and ESPECIALLY 6. FE4, cavs are only considered overpowered because of necessity (nevermind two of them get holy weapons, EVERY holy weapon user is overpowered. Besides, that's 2 of the many mounts you get, only one of them can be considered legitimately good, his name's Oifaye). FE6 is the only time they could be considered broken....and FE9....and FE3...FE1 can't be blamed, it was their first shot, things are bound to go screwy the first time through.

3 out of 11 is pretty tame actually. They don't hold a candle to heroes...

[Dat Nick]

any game that has specialized characters is inherently imbalanced.

I'm talking about GOOD infantry and mounts. Not just making it all one way or the other for every other chapter. Of course you won't make every unit worthwhile in FE, but you can at least make the best units of each class comparable.

keep dismounting in

Yeah, wonderful.

TOO BAD DISMOUNTING DOES FUCKING NOTHING TO HURT THE TOP TIER MOUNTS AND NOW THE LOW TIER MOUNTS SUCK EVEN MORE.

Edited February 1, 2009 by MightyZagaro

[grandjackal]

I'm talking about GOOD infantry and mounts. Not just making it all one way or the other for every other chapter. Of course you won't make every unit worthwhile in FE, but you can at least make the best units of each class comparable.

Yeah, wonderful.

TOO BAD DISMOUNTING DOES FUCKING NOTHING TO HURT THE TOP TIER MOUNTS AND NOW THE LOW TIER MOUNTS SUCK EVEN MORE.

I get the point but....

*gives MightyZagaro a tranquilizer*

Chill dude. You get angry...Can't we all just get along?

[Rodykitty]

TOO BAD DISMOUNTING DOES FUCKING NOTHING TO HURT THE TOP TIER MOUNTS AND NOW THE LOW TIER MOUNTS SUCK EVEN MORE.

Tis why if dismounting returns, that it shouldn't lower stats.

[dondon151]

TOO BAD DISMOUNTING DOES FUCKING NOTHING TO HURT THE TOP TIER MOUNTS AND NOW THE LOW TIER MOUNTS SUCK EVEN MORE.

DID YOU EVEN READ THE REST OF WHAT YOU QUOTED OUT OF CONTEXT I'M GOING TO TYPE IN REALLY ANGRY OBNOXIOUS CAPS SO THIS MAYBE GETS THROUGH YA FUCKING THICK SKULL THOUGH IT DOESN'T ACTUALLY DO ANYTHING

Edited February 1, 2009 by dondon151

[Dat Nick]

Chill dude. You get angry...Can't we all just get along?

Make me repeat the same fucking thing 5000 times, and I can get that way.

DID YOU EVEN READ THE REST OF WHAT YOU QUOTED OUT OF CONTEXT

You were the one who took MY statement out of context.

Tis why if dismounting returns, that it shouldn't lower stats.

So you want to make it even LESS efficent at "nerfing" the top tier mounts, and still keep the low tier mounts fucked over?

Edited February 1, 2009 by MightyZagaro

[dondon151]

You were the one who took MY statement out of context.

You said that the "guys RIDING the mounts" are the problem. I said that I had nothing against fixing individual units and that both (fixing individuals and fixing classes) can be done at the same time. This is out of context?

[Dat Nick]

Not that, the other quote.

[Saaji]

Personally I would like to see the dismount feature return just because it would be interesting. It should be reworked and probably and I dont think that too hard to do, and more variety can't be a bad thing now can it?

Now here's a rather silly idea but hear me out first.

Allow all units to mount and dismount, however the cavs would be superior and have their base stats while on horseback with canto and all the standard mounted unit abilites however while unmounted would suffer small minus to their base stats. While infantry would have their base stats while on foot but could go on horse back for enhanced movement but without canto and they lose a couple stat points all round.

So you'd have units that specialized in certain areas and both units could switch to mounted or unmounted depending on the sitaution but obviously on a mid size outdoor map where you don't need to rush anywhere you'd keep your infantry on foot so they'd fight at full power, and indoor maps you could bring your normally mounted units if you wanted to but they wouldn't fight as well.

Also like said before units should stick to their primary regardless.

[Kiddo]

I think any situation where the cavalry-type/mounted classes are inherently superior would be problematic.

I've been trying to think of other ways to nerf them - but not too hard - and I think giving them more "Unique traits" might be an idea. Perhaps disable weapon triangle while mounted? (as in mounted units never get up/down triangle advantage/disadvantage like other units might - potentially could go both ways as a buff or a nerf) Admittedly the results could potentially be unpredictable, but it's an example of a new idea I wanted to throw out there. (And it'd make the game feel more retro)

[thunderstrife]

They should bring back Mage Knights