Lord Raven Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 (edited) You are completely missing the point, and the fact that I'd have to explain this to you is embarrassing. It's a relatively simple concept. You sell something. You receive x Gold. Everything in the shop is 1/2x. Therefore, you can buy 2 (1/2x) = x things, which is the basis behind why Funds rank can be simple in FE7. Edited February 14, 2009 by Nathan Graves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Chiki is probably going to stay in Low tier, because she's a utility character like the other characters in the same tier, because her most efficient use is a single fire stone. Part of the reason I renamed the tiers is the lower half of the cast is more useful in Book 2 than FEDS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 (edited) Is Merric really worthy of being a tier up on Julian? Really? I'd seriously side with Julian being better. You are completely missing the point, and the fact that I'd have to explain this to you is embarrassing. You NEVER explained this to me until just now. All you did was just say something about 54k being double 27 and automatically expected me to know what the hell you were talking about. Edited February 14, 2009 by Sweet Tooth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Is Merric really worthy of being a tier up on Julian? Really? I'd seriously side with Julian being better.I may as well lower Merric, since I figure most will agree, myself included. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 (edited) Chiki is probably going to stay in Low tier, because she's a utility character like the other characters in the same tier, because her most efficient use is a single fire stone.Yet she works more efficiently than the entirety of low tier, and her efficiency in the 6+ chapters worth of crap afterwards (especially considering funds is not that big a problem) is definitely better than the fact that Jeigan gets passed up after three chapters and Warren almost instantly after he arrives. Much more useful.Each are also pretty much lagging behind. Chiki may be behind the top offensive units, but not to the point where she's lagging. >_> You NEVER explained this to me until just now. All you did was just say something about 54k being double 27 and automatically expected me to know what the hell you were talking about.You debate pretty frequently. I thought you'd know by now, considering that's what most of FE7 was like too. Edited February 14, 2009 by Nathan Graves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Alright. Chiki's probably going to rise then. Sorry BB, but Nathan_Graves pretty much won this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Chiki may be behind the top offensive units Even worse, she's behind the LOW offensive units since they're killing and she's not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 *ahem* Sweet Tooth, we just proved funds is nothing to give a damn about. Chiki has no problem getting the fire dragon stones, keeping her divine, and even selling the firedragon stones to get a demon stone, considering it outclasses fire dragon pretty badly. So it turns out demon stones won't be to expensive thanks to the silver card and what firedragon stones will get you, and divine is free. Hell, I could see her rise more! Fire dragon until demon stone is retrieved, demon till the final chapter where she will be divine. She has a way to be useful throughout. Hell, she can divine for the chapter she's in after ice palace to easier take care of the ballistae. One shots them. Face it clown, she doesn't sound bad anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Actually, I still consider hurting funds a flaw, especially when other characters aren't so ridiculously expensive and outputting just as much (if not more) performance. One fire stone is enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Actually, I still consider hurting funds a flaw, especially when other characters aren't so ridiculously expensive and outputting just as much (if not more) performance.One fire stone is enough. Just sayin' at least she has a way to pay for the demon stone at least....but yeah, maybe i got a bit hyped here ;;>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Actually, I still consider hurting funds a flaw, especially when other characters aren't so ridiculously expensive and outputting just as much (if not more) performance.One fire stone is enough. At best, it should be an inherently minor flaw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 (edited) The only reason it's a minor flaw is because she's being limited to the least expensive option possible. She's highly dependent on the stones as the bulk of her performance, while stats are the bulk of other characters' performance. Since her most efficient option is to use the Fire Stone, she's not going to be brought to her full potential. I know there are "plenty of funds in the game", but at the same time there's also plenty of every other way to bring favortism to lower tier characters, making non-efficient playthroughs have little to do with tier lists anyway. To me, being wasteful with funds does not show a very efficient approach, which is what tiers should value for FE regardless of if rankings exist or not. Chiki already got bumped up to Low-Mid. I don't see her going up much. Maybe within her tier, depending on how well she can tank at base level. Edited February 14, 2009 by Chainey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Oh, I thought you were saying she wouldn't be bumped to lower mid because of that. My bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 (edited) I may not be exact, but at base I believe she has 10 base defense as a fire dragon, 15 as a demon dragon...forget with divine stone, i believe 12? Dunno about HP for any of them, but doubling does effect her every time she's attacked. Just how much it matters we don't know. Edited February 14, 2009 by Grandjackal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 (edited) Chiki's base HP is 2 (her HP - class HP) + 32 base from divine dragon. Applying the same formula, So, Fire/Demon/Divine have 50/42/36 HP respectively Fire/Demon/Divine 14/12/16 Str (12/12/10 power breath respectively) Fire/Demon/Divine 6/6/16 Skl (80/70/90 hit respectively) Fire/Demon/Divine 16/19/14 Def Fire/Demon/Divine 5/20/10 Res Fire probably is her best option when you consider funds, anyway. Edited February 14, 2009 by Nathan Graves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 *ahem* Sweet Tooth, we just proved funds is nothing to give a damn about. And that's why I didn't bring up her funds, but her fail offense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 And that's why I didn't bring up her funds, but her fail offense. And yet not her tank abilities. Looking at the stats Nathan so graciously gave, she's actually an excellent tank as a fire/demon dragon. Throw in undefendable range, she takes Super Doga to whole new levels. Even being doubled, nearly most units are doing piss damage to her. She weakens them, she makes the rest of your army tear through the enemy even more. She sounds more like FE DS Mini General Zagaro to me. Her weaknesses really are she is indeed dependent on expensive weapons (though you can still sell at least a fire dragon stone, but throw in the gold you already get, selling silver axes and useless stat ups like goddess icons and skill books...) and can't kill by herself without a critical. Her durability is nice till she no longer needs it against the demon dragons of final chapter, where switching to divine helps make killing demon dragons easier (and saves durability on your precious dragonslayers). With funds proven not a problem, her only weaknesses are her weapons are expensive, comes a bit late and can't kill without a crit. However, her strengths are she acts as a tank with undefendable huge damage without training. I think we were basing her off being a divine dragon this whole time. But her use is defense and not offense. But basically, think General Zagaro H5 with actual weaknesses and comes a quite a bit later. It's why she's in lower mid, we aren't about to put her in high or anything. But with seperate stones, she can meld to the situation. That's a pretty nice advantage. Considering I don't use Chiki often though, perhaps I'm not explaining it best. Perhaps I'm getting a tad hyped, but I could see her going a bit higher, but perhaps I need to try using her again first to clarify it to myself... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 something about dead horses and beating stuff somehow becomes relevant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 (edited) I'm sure you two have been at this for a good while. That and I probably sucked at making a clear point. But main point I suppose is her use is defense and not offense. Yeah, it's a point you made, but someone here seems not to notice that, along with the stats you gave us on the stones. Or doesn't understand we aren't trying to get her into high here. Edited February 15, 2009 by Grandjackal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 Defense isn't that useful though when even Captain Gordin can take a blow or two, the Gemini Orb exists, Physics are buyable, dragons have shitty hit, and a bunch of other stuff. Yeah yeah yeah favoritism blah blah blah but letting an extra 30% str and 20% def growth go to waste is just plain stupid. You gotta let SOMEBODY benefit from that kind of win, or just pass it around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 (edited) Fun fact: Dragons aren't an enemy while Chiki's around until beyond after C20. Another fun fact: we're not arguing Chiki > Gordon. Have a nice day. Edited February 15, 2009 by Nathan Graves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 Fun fact: Dragons aren't an enemy while Chiki's around until beyond after C20. ....This is only cementing the fact that Chiki's pretty bad. Lower mid isn't the place for a pretty bad unit. Low/Bottom is more accurate. Another fun fact: we're not arguing Chiki > Gordon. how are you not? Low Mid was higher than Low, the last I checked. Gordin is Low tier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 (edited) We are looking at two completely different tier lists. Edited February 15, 2009 by Nathan Graves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 fair enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 (edited) Defense isn't that useful though when even Captain Gordin can take a blow or two, the Gemini Orb exists, Physics are buyable, dragons have shitty hit, and a bunch of other stuff.Yeah yeah yeah favoritism blah blah blah but letting an extra 30% str and 20% def growth go to waste is just plain stupid. You gotta let SOMEBODY benefit from that kind of win, or just pass it around. Like you don't have the star orb for chiki. Or light orb. Whichever one boosts growth. What's important is she can take quite a few more blows even with doubling considered, varied on stone. We could use physic on our chiki tank (or just plain heal). Enemies don't suddenly become dodging gods. She tanks, does good damage without quickly burning through weapons, which in turn makes killing with everyone else easier and keeps weapons from breaking faster. Again, it isn't like we're trying to get her into high here. She's not as bad as you make her out to be is all we're saying. EDIT: Woop, seems it's been taken care of. Nevermind me. Edited February 15, 2009 by Grandjackal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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