Sain Or Lowen

[_____]

Clonez: Mind running that one by me again? Sain has 9 defense at 20, and Lowen has 12 Strength. Lowen can also use weapons to bolster his offense. There're no magic shields that help you defend.

12.4 speed for Lowen, 13.6 speed for Sain. That's a very possible +2 speed lead for Sain.

And then 12 Luck for Lowen and 10.65 Luck for Sain. You can't just round everything down. >_>

Lowen might get a Marcus support, but Eliwood is tougher because of a 2 movement difference and it being fairly slow when you need to look at Tactics. Then there's the fact that Eliwood might go with Hector just for the sheer speed of it and the possibility of not promoting until Night of Farewells/Cog of Destiny. Harken comes late when it doesn't matter as much and is unlikely to build up.

Sain at least has a fairly reliable and fast support with Kent. It's more offensive than defensive, but they have the same movement and likely similar promotion times.

And I typed this all up without looking at Reikken's post. Fair enough, Reikken.

Except that the game does round stats down. So, the comparison still stands.

If Eliwood's going for Hector, he'll need a B support. Enter Lowen. AnimaXFire gives great bonuses, and now, since you're only going to a B support, it's not nearly as slow as before. The Marcus Support is quicker and IceXFire is still decent. Better than WindXAnima, that's for sure. Lowen might even be able to grab a Rebecca C if the Marcus support only goes to B for some earlygame FireXFire sex.

And Sain needs more offense to bolster his already overkill attack? No thanks.

Edited February 7, 2009 by Lester

[Florete]

Clonez: Mind running that one by me again? Sain has 9 defense at 20, and Lowen has 12 Strength. Lowen can also use weapons to bolster his offense. There're no magic shields that help you defend.

I think what he's saying is that Sain's better offense + worse defense > Lowen's worse offense + better defense. But I really don't feel like debating this again, so I'm just gonna step out.

Except that the game does round stats down. So, the comparison still stands.

The game doesn't follow averages. >_> Either include the decimals in your argument, or round correctly (Obviously doesn't apply to support bonuses, which do round down).

And Sain needs more offense to bolster his already overkill attack? No thanks.

1. It helps Kent's somewhat lower offense as well.

2. It might give the possibility of one-shotting certain weaker enemies. Better than needing a double attack.

Edited February 7, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[_____]

I think what he's saying is that Sain's better offense + worse defense > Lowen's worse offense + better defense. But I really don't feel like debating this again, so I'm just gonna step out.

Yeah just sayin. Thing is offense and defense are pretty much even, even in this game, and it's pretty much true for these guys too. Lowen's AS sucks and Wind affinity is bad for Sain.

Sain's offense>Lowen's offense

Lowen's defense>Sain's offense

but Sain's defense>Lowen's offense

It's right there.

[Florete]

It's right there.

I know. I was trying to interpret it in a different way.

[Clonez]

I think what he's saying is that Sain's better offense + worse defense > Lowen's worse offense + better defense. But I really don't feel like debating this again, so I'm just gonna step out.

The game doesn't follow averages. >_> Either include the decimals in your argument, or round correctly (Obviously doesn't apply to support bonuses, which do round down).

1. It helps Kent's somewhat lower offense as well.

2. It might give the possibility of one-shotting certain weaker enemies. Better than needing a double attack.

What this guy said.

[_____]

The game doesn't follow averages. >_> Either include the decimals in your argument, or round correctly (Obviously doesn't apply to support bonuses, which do round down).

1. It helps Kent's somewhat lower offense as well.

2. It might give the possibility of one-shotting certain weaker enemies. Better than needing a double attack.

It still rounds down. Sain's POSSIBLE 2 Speed bonus still doesn't matter, as he'll likely have less aovid than that of Lowen regardless.

1.) LowenXEliwood helps Eliwood's lower startign offense as well.

2.) It still doesn't mean he can run into a group of enemies and survive. All that means is that he doesn't take a counterattack on the player phase, something that Lowen could dodge or tank through, or that he'll save a weapon use. It's miniscule.

[Princess Kilvas]

I prefer to use Sain most of the time. But I've used Lowen a couple times, he's not that bad.

Edited February 7, 2009 by Princess Kilvas

[Florete]

It still rounds down. Sain's POSSIBLE 2 Speed bonus still doesn't matter, as he'll likely have less aovid than that of Lowen regardless.

Depending on the weapn you're using, 2 more speed also means +2 AS, so Sain can double things Lowen can't. And I'd like you to explain why it should round down.

1.) LowenXEliwood helps Eliwood's lower startign offense as well.

After 31 turns of being next to each other, they reach C. If you're somehow keeping them next to each other every single turn, yeah it'll help. But EliwoodxHector is faster and helps him more defensively, which I find is more important for Eliwood. Not to mention the two are much more likely to be next to each other.

2.) It still doesn't mean he can run into a group of enemies and survive. All that means is that he doesn't take a counterattack on the player phase, something that Lowen could dodge or tank through, or that he'll save a weapon use. It's miniscule.

Does that mean you're sending Lowen into a group of enemies? Depending on what these enemies are, Lowen might not survive either. Sain's defense is worse than Lowen's, but it's not god-awful either. He should have enough HP, defense, and avoid to survive fairly reliably until a healer can come in.

Now I'm really done. I hope.

[_____]

Depending on the weapn you're using, 2 more speed also means +2 AS, so Sain can double things Lowen can't. And I'd like you to explain why it should round down.

After 31 turns of being next to each other, they reach C. If you're somehow keeping them next to each other every single turn, yeah it'll help. But EliwoodxHector is faster and helps him more defensively, which I find is more important for Eliwood. Not to mention the two are much more likely to be next to each other.

Does that mean you're sending Lowen into a group of enemies? Depending on what these enemies are, Lowen might not survive either. Sain's defense is worse than Lowen's, but it's not god-awful either. He should have enough HP, defense, and avoid to survive fairly reliably until a healer can come in.

Now I'm really done. I hope.

So, Sain and Lowen would have the same dodge/speed without supports because Lowen has higher CON than Sain. :/

Once again, Hector A/Lowen B. It works out fine.

Lowen's wtfHP lead, moderate Defense lead and minor avoid lead say otherwise. While he may not ORKO a few units, he can at least take them all on without fearing death.

You wish. You're compelled to argue with me.

[Reikken]

Does that mean you're sending Lowen into a group of enemies? Depending on what these enemies are, Lowen might not survive either. Sain's defense is worse than Lowen's, but it's not god-awful either. He should have enough HP, defense, and avoid to survive fairly reliably until a healer can come in.

If you're playing something other than HHM, then yeah, Sain's defenses should be enough in most cases. But not on HHM. *boots up ch 17 savestate* Take ch 17, for example, assuming Sain/Lowen is lv 9. A 18-atk Steel lance Knight, 17-atk Steel bow Archer, and a 14-atk Iron bow Nomad is enough to take down an average Sain. The average Lowen, however, would be left with about 9-10 hp left. Enough to survive even a fourth attack. Sain here could only be exposed to two enemies without a high chance of dying. Lowen, however, could take 4.

Edited February 7, 2009 by Reikken

[dondon151]

Time to debunk some wrong conceptions using personal experience.

Harken comes late when it doesn't matter as much and is unlikely to build up.

If Eliwood's going for Hector, he'll need a B support. Enter Lowen. AnimaXFire gives great bonuses, and now, since you're only going to a B support, it's not nearly as slow as before. The Marcus Support is quicker and IceXFire is still decent. Better than WindXAnima, that's for sure. Lowen might even be able to grab a Rebecca C if the Marcus support only goes to B for some earlygame FireXFire sex.

Harken may come late, but his Lowen support gains +3 points per turn and only 19 turns is required for a C, so it can't be counted out. Also, he, Isadora and Lowen can form a support triangle that gives full crit and avo for all supports and full attack for firexfire. Actually, Lowen can do quite a few somewhat fast support triangles with fairly viable characters, which is worth something.

EliwoodxLowen is not very likely to reach B - it's not a fast-growing support and it's already kind of slow to reach C. MarcusxLowen C is also total trash since both atk and def round down to +0. Eliwood doesn't "need" a B support either

2. It might give the possibility of one-shotting certain weaker enemies. Better than needing a double attack.

Sain's not one-shotting anyone until very late in the game, where his offensive lead definitively beats Lowen's anyway. And even then, it's only magic users and thieves.

Does that mean you're sending Lowen into a group of enemies? Depending on what these enemies are, Lowen might not survive either. Sain's defense is worse than Lowen's, but it's not god-awful either. He should have enough HP, defense, and avoid to survive fairly reliably until a healer can come in.

Lowen's only possibly facing death on ch18 with the Nosferatu shamans. His durability beats Sain's by leaps and bounds; 2.4 def and 4 HP are very deceptive.

Edited February 7, 2009 by dondon151

[Ansem]

Pre-promotes are crapy latter on in the game compared to units you have raised from lvl 1

not really

If you've been raising those prepromotes as well, then they'll still be on a higher level.

And then some of them are awesome anyway. Like Pent is pwn even without a higher level. Geitz is the only warrior with decent spd. Harken has great stats. Even Isadora is great once her supports are established. She gets amazing avoid and has good spd/crit to make up for a lack of atk, and her class is awesome to begin with.

What he is trying to say is there are characters better then the prepromotes once trained to level 20 and promoted

Erk/Nino> Pent

Bartre/Dorcas> Geitz

Raven> harken

kent/Sain/Lowen> isadora

[Sho Minamimoto]

Pre-promotes are crapy latter on in the game compared to units you have raised from lvl 1

not really

If you've been raising those prepromotes as well, then they'll still be on a higher level.

And then some of them are awesome anyway. Like Pent is pwn even without a higher level. Geitz is the only warrior with decent spd. Harken has great stats. Even Isadora is great once her supports are established. She gets amazing avoid and has good spd/crit to make up for a lack of atk, and her class is awesome to begin with.

What he is trying to say is there are characters better then the prepromotes once trained to level 20 and promoted

Erk/Nino> Pent

Bartre/Dorcas> Geitz

Raven> harken

kent/Sain/Lowen> isadora

You do realize that this topic's last reply was almost a year ago right?

Necro'ed, lock pl0x.

Edited January 11, 2010 by Sho Minamimoto