Nathan Graves (Ike) vs Sweet Tooth (Stefan)

[Lord Raven]

Topic here for fun. Opener later, right now, Physics/World.

[Lord Raven]

I am VERY sorry, you'll probably have to wait until monday. I was doing some volunteer work over the past two days... three cramps and like 20 hours of work and I'm really blown.

[Dat Nick]

..I'm sure NG won't mind if I open instead.

Let's get the common arguments out of the way first, even though I know Hugh Grant's buddy is smart enough not to use him.

"lol Ragnell h4x lol"

lol 2 chapters lol

"lol GREAT AEETHEERRRR"

lol 11% activation rate at peak

"LOL STEFAN LUCK LOL"

who gives a shit

only things with kill weapons even have a chance to crit him, and it's not hurting his avo that much

"Ike has availability IKE GOD TIER LOL"

he also sucks for most of it

more on that later.

for now, let's compare Stefan and Ike in raw statistics:

20 Ike [And this is being nice]Ike, A Oscar B...um....B...Titania?

33 HP, 14 str, 16 skl, 17 AS, 13 def, 9 rs, 81 avo

base Stefan:

38 HP, 19 str, 27skl, 25 AS, 12 def, 9 res, 55 avo

lulraep. And this isn't even factoring in that Stefan can use the Vague Katti to twist durability in his favor and that both of his supporters have a move gap. Never mind that Stefan himself also wins move.

Why just Stefan in the vague Katti? Well, why not? I don't see anybody else who can use it since Ti can't use swords.

Oh, Ike's available before then? He also sucks before then.

here's a common example, chapter 8

10/0 Ike, C Oscar [Again, me being nice to Ike]

26 HP, 10 str, 10 skl, 12 AS, 8 def, 3 res, 43 avo

the weapon knights, of which there are six, Ike kills, but ONLY with the Regal Sword, and who's to say that hasn't been used up already? Ike is amazingly reliant on it not to fail completely, and earlier chapters have quite a bit of knights. Not only that, but Ike needs the thing on things that AREN'T knights just because that's how badly he sucks. And no, he can't upgrade to Steel because the shop only now just began to exist, and it would rape his AS [which is borderline doubling btw] even if he could. Those 45 uses only last so long when it's a weapon Ike is so dependent on.

Oh, and he's not killing the lvl 10 at all, Regal Sword or no Regal Sword.

What's Ike taking back?

lvl 6 with Iron Axe:

6 dmg, 21 hit

...when he's around Oscar

but anyway

lvl 6 with Jav:

6 dmg, 21 hit

...again, when he's around Oscar

10 with iron swd:

103 hit, 6 damage, 9 AS so Ike doesn't double him

ouch.

Knight: Straightforward enough, he'll kill them if he still has the regal sword and he'll get owned if he doesn't. Ike's facing 11-12 dmg back with hit in the fifties, though, so Regal Sword or not he's running a risk by trying to kill one at full health.

and before you bring up armorslayer, Ike with it has 5 AS. Yes, five. Knights have 2-3 AS. Lmfao.

half of the myrms will avoid doubles by Ike and shell out decent damage to him back. The other two will get doubled, but...

Lvl 8 w Steel:

7-8 dmg with hit in the fifties back

lvl 8 with Blade:

11 or so with hit in the fifties

And...

22 HP and 5 def. Ike...10 dmg a hit with Iron. He can't even one round them back without Regal. See how dependent Ike is on the damned thing? And before you say he can use Steel, Steel Swd Myrm has 8 AS. Ike with Steel has 10 AS. Ike can't double him anymore. Regal or nothing.

8 soldiers. uh oez WTD tiem for Ike.

And that's not all. 25-26 HP and 6-7 def. Factor in WTD and it gets worse.

And they hit him back with..

Stl lance: 11 dmg, hit in the fifties

...Ouch. The Regal Sword doesn't help Ike, either, which doesn't help things.

Iron bow guy does like three damage to Ike, but Ike needs two rounds to kill him. 8 dmg x2- 21-22 HP= insufficent atk to kill

Steel Bow guy does 7 dmg with hit in the fourties. Also takes two rounds to kill.

longbow guy, meh, he's helpless

Mages.

Sure, Ike kills them in one round, but not before he gets hit back with a 7-8 dmg blast with hit in roughly the sixties.

poleax guy, meh, can't hit ike

Reinforcements also, but they're not really a step above the current enemies Ike is losing to so badly.

Being there for longer doesn't mean a damned thing if you fail that hard. Wolt would be god tier otherwise.

Stefan, meanwhile, is win out of the gate even if Ike's at 20. Which he won't be. And Titania would rather support with Boyd and Mist than him. So that was being more generous on my part. Stefan's winning pre-C18 and there's not a damn thing Ike can do about it.

What about latergame, when Ike promotes?

12 Stefan, C Soren: 41 HP, 21 str, 28 skl, 27 AS, 13 def, 10 res, 62 avo

20/1 Ike, A Oscar B Ti: 37 HP, 17 str, 17 skl, 19 AS, 16 def, 10 res, 90 avo

Nope, Stefan's still winning. Lost his move lead, though. Ike's keeping up with his supporters better, also. ...At least he would if they also didn't get 1 move on promo.

How about Endgame? That's Ike's strong point, SURELY he must have caught up by now.

20/10 Ike A Oscar B Ti: 44 HP, 22 str, 22 skl, 24 AS, 25 def, 14 res, 104 avo

20 Stefan A Soren: 46 HP, 25 str, 29 skl, 30 AS, 16 def, 12 res, 75 avo, give a few points if you gave him a few Ashera Icons

"WTF FAVORITISM LOL I COULD GIVE ANYBODY THE ASHERA ICONS"

Yeah, you could. Just one thing, nobody else really gives a damn about the Ashera Icons since Luck's a nonissue for them and 2 avoid isn't going to solve any avo problems. It cuts potential crit existance on Stefan, which is FAR more useful than 2 luck that wouldn't have mattered on another character.

...anyway, 1-2 range and Ragnell def bonus probably give Ike the win here. But one question: Was it worth getting slaughtered by Stefan for the rest of the game?

anyway, Stefan wins at jointime no matter what, and Ike's fail earlygame cancels out his availability. Stefan wins midgame, albit by a smaller margin. Ike has an edge lategame, again not compensating for how badly he was getting raped when Stefan was out.

Stefan>Ike

EDT:

I am VERY sorry, you'll probably have to wait until monday. I was doing some volunteer work over the past two days... three cramps and like 20 hours of work and I'm really blown.

i don't mind

Edited February 8, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[Lord Raven]

..I'm sure NG won't mind if I open instead.

It's better actually. Thanks for the initiative, I honestly appreciate it.

Let's get the common arguments out of the way first, even though I know Hugh Grant's buddy is smart enough not to use him.

"lol Ragnell h4x lol"

lol 2 chapters lol

Ragnell gives him a good 2 chapter lead though. They're long chapters too.

This means...

+2 chapters of same attack (same Strength, comparing L20/13 vs 20/18 also assuming forged Silver Sword vs Ragnell)

+2 chapters of more Defense (20+5 Defense vs 15(+3 Vague Katti) Defense)

+2 chapters of 1-2 range vs 1 range

Ike > Stefan in the final two chapters. Don't discount those two chapters because they're just "two" chapters; the enemy quantity in Endgame comes to at least 45 in Hard Mode, and there are many, many laguz hungry for units with evade deficit like Stefan (L17 Stefan has all of 66 evade, 73 with A Soren). The tigers/cats have around 127 hit rate leaving him with 54% evasion rate provided neutral biorhythm. On a hit, he'll take like 17 damage. The cats do like 13 damage. (Tigers and Cats have 9/8 Attack respectively, 23/20 Str respectively, so that's 32/28 attack respectively, Stefan averages 15 on 20/16).

Ike, with A Oscar (+30 Evade) B Soren (+15 Avoid) at L20/11 (66+45 Evade=111 evade), so they have 16% hit against Ike. Ike has 24 defense at this time, therefore taking 8/4 damage per cat or tiger enemy.

Case applies lowest level of laguz per unit, and .5's rounding down in Ike's case.

Stefan has a one point attack lead at this point assuming a forged Silver Sword vs Ragnell. That's cool though, Ike has a 1-2 range that he'll make use of against enemy laguz or enemies in the final chapter, so he can raise his chances of avoiding attacks even further and even further his own defense.

And 2 chapters, if you're going that route, makes up probably 1/10 of his join time if not a teensy bit more.

"LOL STEFAN LUCK LOL"

who gives a shit

only things with kill weapons even have a chance to crit him, and it's not hurting his avo that much

Numbers much?

His lack of avoid up there? Partially due to luck. He could easily gain like 10 avoid and put that below the 50 mark for true hit to take priority on a lower% hit, but instead his lack of luck places him further below Ike.

Going further down the list of enemies,

Myrmidons have 13-14 Skl in Chapter 16. Stefan has not gained a level by now (Level 8 promoted by chapter 15? Not getting much), therefore they have 1-2% crit on him. They have 40 some hit on him (13*2=26, +70 from Iron Blade = 96, +75 from Steel Sword = 101) and do 7/6 (respectively) damage, too.

38 HP.

L17 Ike has roughly the same Defense, much more avoid. 16*2(Spd)+12(Lck)+30(Ike-Oscar A)+15(Soren-Ike B)=80 Avoid. So they have 16-21 hit on him, 7/6 damage and Ike has 7 less HP.

Of course, Stefan has the better chance to one round with an Iron Sword. But Ike is still easily more than capable of catching up, and more capable than Stefan on the defensive side in C17.

More on C16. There's a Sniper with 19 critical on Stefan (16-18/2=8-9 + 15 Sniper bonus - 5 Stefan Luck) whereas the same Sniper has 11 Crit on Ike. His Steel Bow hit rate is 102.

21% chance of hitting Ike (25% at max).

47% chance of hitting Stefan (51% at max).

Does equal damage to both.

They only exist to get stronger. Stefan doesn't really have a large chance of gaining luck until L11 (has 5.8 Luck), which happens potentially around C22ish because of his very low EXP gain rate due to level. I'm really too lazy to go further; enemy skill stats will rise, and enemies without killer weapons will have a crit chance on him. especially later on.

Also, his avoid rate is relatively stagnant. At L15 it's 69 (7 Luck) where Snipers have at least 18-19% crit rate on him and around 51-55% hit on him. The Snipers have 110-114 hit with Steel Bow, so do the math on Ike who has

- 43 HP (vs Stefan 43)

- 63+45 Evade (vs Stefan 71), 12-16% avoid on him

- 19 vs 14 Def

20/9 vs 20/15 btw.

And really? Ike's beating Stefan in durability, and going from beating him -> getting worse than him in offense, gradually. Ike's massive durability win (partially attributed to decent luck vs shit luck) pretty much wins. I guess this sums up the following points;

20 Ike [And this is being nice]Ike, A Oscar B...um....B...Titania?

33 HP, 14 str, 16 skl, 17 AS, 13 def, 9 rs, 81 avo

base Stefan:

38 HP, 19 str, 27 skl, 25 AS, 12 def, 9 res, 55 avo

lulraep. And this isn't even factoring in that Stefan can use the Vague Katti to twist durability in his favor and that both of his supporters have a move gap. Never mind that Stefan himself also wins move.

Why just Stefan in the vague Katti? Well, why not? I don't see anybody else who can use it since Ti can't use swords.

And of course, you wouldn't want to completely waste Vague Katti early on especially since the critical is overkill at that point. Iron Sword Stefan is > Steel Sword Ike in offense, but Ike > Stefan in Defense. As stated above.

Also, B Soren > B Titania, it helps the team more (Titania can support other units now) and helps Soren a bit more.

You haven't explained how it's being "nice."

Oh, Ike's available before then? He also sucks before then.

Firstly, this debate starts at Chatper 15. We should compare the two from this point on. But I can have fun refuting your points here, showing that Ike can be useful beforehand or just making it a neutral point saying that he doesn't suck.

10/0 Ike, C Oscar [Again, me being nice to Ike]

Why is it being nice, again? He has many axe users to beat up on in C1-3 and gets a free level from the Prologue. And then there's the Regal Sword to kill bitch armors.

26 HP, 10 str, 10 skl, 12 AS, 8 def, 3 res, 43 avo

the weapon knights, of which there are six, Ike kills, but ONLY with the Regal Sword, and who's to say that hasn't been used up already?

It isn't. You're not using it on enemies that aren't weak to it, are you? It's only 2 points stronger than an Iron Sword.

Ike is amazingly reliant on it not to fail completely

I can easily say that Ike doesn't need it to not fail completely. Where's your proof?

and earlier chapters have quite a bit of knights.

C4 - has one. Two uses out of 40.

C6 - has four. Eight uses out of 38.

C7 - has eight after reinforcements. Realistically, six uses out of 30.

From there it doesn't matter. It has 12 uses left.

Not only that, but Ike needs the thing on things that AREN'T knights just because that's how badly he sucks.

2 more might than an Iron Sword is a point that counters that. On top of the fact that you haven't even shown numbers to back up your claim, so I have little inclination to believe you seeing as, since this is a proper debate post, you should at least have taken some time to bring up numbers.

And no, he can't upgrade to Steel because the shop only now just began to exist, and it would rape his AS [which is borderline doubling btw] even if he could. Those 45 uses only last so long when it's a weapon Ike is so dependent on.

How is it borderline doubling? Be more specific! "Borderline doubling" is a vague claim, and reducing 2 AS doesn't really "rape." On top of that there's a Steel Sword existing and ready to be used.

Oh, and he's not killing the lvl 10 at all, Regal Sword or no Regal Sword.

Say what?

What's Ike taking back?

lvl 6 with Iron Axe:

6 dmg, 21 hit

...when he's around Oscar

but anyway

lvl 6 with Jav:

6 dmg, 21 hit

...again, when he's around Oscar

And you make this sound impossible?

10 with iron swd:

103 hit, 6 damage, 9 AS so Ike doesn't double him

ouch.

L11 Ike has 12.55 Speed, so if he kills the other Knights first he definitely has a decent chance of being able to double that one.

Knight: Straightforward enough, he'll kill them if he still has the regal sword and he'll get owned if he doesn't. Ike's facing 11-12 dmg back with hit in the fifties, though, so Regal Sword or not he's running a risk by trying to kill one at full health.

Vulneraries exist, and preying on the Javelin Knight first is a better idea.

and before you bring up armorslayer, Ike with it has 5 AS. Yes, five. Knights have 2-3 AS. Lmfao.

I don't need to.

half of the myrms will avoid doubles by Ike and shell out decent damage to him back. The other two will get doubled, but...

Lvl 8 w Steel:

7-8 dmg with hit in the fifties back

lvl 8 with Blade:

11 or so with hit in the fifties

Hmm.

10-11 damage to boyd who has just as much HP.

Rhys, Mia, Soren are screwed. If you need numbers behind this, you really are crazy.

Titania, Oscar are doing better.

I guess he has the middle ground here...!

22 HP and 5 def. Ike...10 dmg a hit with Iron. He can't even one round them back without Regal. See how dependent Ike is on the damned thing? And before you say he can use Steel, Steel Swd Myrm has 8 AS. Ike with Steel has 10 AS. Ike can't double him anymore. Regal or nothing.

21 HP and 4 defense are also potential. He has a decent chance of one rounding with Iron Sword, and a decent chance of being L11 by the time he fights them (for the record, there are Soldiers and other shit before he fights those guys, but the bottom path is preferable anyway due to more damage output + less damage take due to your numbers earlier). So really, you can't rule out the worst possible posibility; it's essentially 50/50 to one round.

Steel Sword fucks up the Steel Blade Myrmidon no matter one.

8 soldiers. uh oez WTD tiem for Ike.

And that's not all. 25-26 HP and 6-7 def. Factor in WTD and it gets worse.

Two rounding? Titania's the only one one rounding anyway, considering Boyd has 9 AS and Oscar like 11 or 12 with not enough to OHKO/in Oscar's case, one round.

Stl lance: 11 dmg, hit in the fifties

...Ouch. The Regal Sword doesn't help Ike, either, which doesn't help things.

There's three if you block the left chokepoint.

At any rate, the chance of all three hitting is like 12.5%, and the chance of two hitting is 25%. 38% chance of 2 or 3 hitting though, but only two at a time unless you suck at blocking chokeholds.

Iron bow guy does like three damage to Ike, but Ike needs two rounds to kill him. 8 dmg x2- 21-22 HP= insufficent atk to kill

The Archer has 6 Spd and Steel Sword Ike has 10 AS, for one thing. 11 dmg x2 >= 21-22.

Steel Bow guy does 7 dmg with hit in the fourties. Also takes two rounds to kill.

^

Mages.

Sure, Ike kills them in one round, but not before he gets hit back with a 7-8 dmg blast with hit in roughly the sixties.

Yeah and? Get Titania to block that fort, Ike is probably the most dumbass thing to even put there due to low Res. Same with Boyd.

Reinforcements also, but they're not really a step above the current enemies Ike is losing to so badly.

Not "so badly" but not completely getting raped either. Read above, and they'll probably take a bit of time to hit his chokepoints anyway.

Being there for longer doesn't mean a damned thing if you fail that hard. Wolt would be god tier otherwise.

Doesn't fail hard. :)

Stefan, meanwhile, is win out of the gate even if Ike's at 20. Which he won't be.

Again, why?

And Titania would rather support with Boyd and Mist than him. So that was being more generous on my part. Stefan's winning pre-C18 and there's not a damn thing Ike can do about it.

Cool I assumed Soren support anyway.

12 Stefan, C Soren: 41 HP, 21 str, 28 skl, 27 AS, 13 def, 10 res, 62 avo

20/1 Ike, A Oscar B Soren: 37 HP, 18 str, 17 skl, 19 AS, 16 def, 10 res, 96 avo

12 Stefan at Chapter 18? Are you kidding me? That's assuming he gets 133-134 EXP per chapter, which is not viable considering, if the average level is 15 (give or take a couple) he'll get like 6-10 EXP per kill. Which means anywhere from 10-16 kills per chapter out of possibly 20-30 enemies.

Nope, Stefan's still winning. Lost his move lead, though. Ike's keeping up with his supporters better, also. ...At least he would if they also didn't get 1 move on promo.

Oscar has Canto.

Soren is just fine. Support is 3 spaces anyway, and the maps aren't particularly large.

"WTF FAVORITISM LOL I COULD GIVE ANYBODY THE ASHERA ICONS"

Yeah, you could. Just one thing, nobody else really gives a damn about the Ashera Icons since Luck's a nonissue for them and 2 avoid isn't going to solve any avo problems. It cuts potential crit existance on Stefan, which is FAR more useful than 2 luck that wouldn't have mattered on another character.

Cool story bro +4 Avoid/Dodge massive difference. Apply it to above calcs and you're set. It doesn't make much of a difference when applied to either side.

My view on "FAVORITISM" is that each should be allowed mutual access to it. Ike gets +4% Evade/Dodge and Stefan does too. That's cool, it's pretty much a non-issue on either anyway, so Ike is still winning and it doesn't close his gaps.

Stefan<Ike

Final point: Stefan costs a slot, Ike does not. Ike is forced into every chapter.

I'll be happy to give numbers if you don't for certain things on my next post. Right now I'm dead tired and really want to get this over with.

[Dat Nick]

Numbers much?

enemy skl, or lack thereof, much?

Myrmidons have 13-14 Skl in Chapter 16. Stefan has not gained a level by now (Level 8 promoted by chapter 15? Not getting much), therefore they have 1-2% crit on him.

1-2% rates?!

O SNAP LET'S KEEP STEFAN AWAY CUZ HE HAS A MARGINAL CHANCE OF BEING CRITTED NEVER MIND THAT HE HAS A WAY BIGGER CHANCE OF KILLING EVERYTHING LOL

yeah no. 1-2 is nothing. I can't believe you even tried to argue that.

21% chance of hitting Ike (25% at max).

47% chance of hitting Stefan (51% at max).

Does equal damage to both.

47% still isn't very good.

Also, his avoid rate is relatively stagnant. At L15 it's 69 (7 Luck) where Snipers have at least 18-19% crit rate on him and around 51-55% hit on him.

Hit prioritizes crit, so that 19% crit, which is pretty meh to begin with, is even lower than what it looks like.

You haven't explained how it's being "nice."

lvl 20 Ike in C15, especially since Ike hates C15=not happening. His fail earlygame also holds him down.

And of course, you wouldn't want to completely waste Vague Katti early on especially since the critical is overkill at that point.

I was moreso referring to the def boost.

His lack of avoid up there?

what lack of avoid

60 something at base sure as hell isn't a lack of avoid

Firstly, this debate starts at Chatper 15. We should compare the two from this point on.

yes

And obviously, if Ike's earlygame didn't blow, that would be a point for him, since he was kicking ass before Stefan even existed and made him more useful overall

sadly, it was more along the lines of Ike getting his ass KICKED

And then there's the Regal Sword to kill bitch armors.

What seems like a plus at first becomes his eventual downfall.

It isn't. You're not using it on enemies that aren't weak to it, are you? It's only 2 points stronger than an Iron Sword.

That two points is the difference between one rounding and not doing so more often than you think.

I can easily say that Ike doesn't need it to not fail completely. Where's your proof?

My proof's right there. See the comparisons vs the Myrms.

And you make this sound impossible?

It won't happen all the time. Oscar's got a lot of shit to do, and he can do it faster than Ike. Oscar can take the mages, archers, or other things. Unlike Ike, Oscar isn't in mortal peril from one or two hits, and can stay in the fight longer.

2 more might than an Iron Sword is a point that counters that.

And 2 more mt being the difference between a one round and a two round counters THAT.

On top of the fact that you haven't even shown numbers to back up your claim,

I just gave them to you. See the myrm section.

L11 Ike has 12.55 Speed, so if he kills the other Knights first he definitely has a decent chance of being able to double that one.

10 is pushing it, and you're trying to argue ELEVEN?

How is it borderline doubling?

the wpn knights have 8 spd

Ike has 12 spd with iron swd

Ike has 10 spd with stl sword

Ike can no longer double if he uses Steel sword.

That's how it's borderline doubling.

and reducing 2 AS doesn't really "rape."

Um, yes. 2 AS can be a VERY big deal this early on.

On top of that there's a Steel Sword existing and ready to be used.

On top of that is the fact that 10 AS doesn't double 8, meaning it doesn't help Ike at all.

Say what?

what i just said

Ike can't make 12 AS double 9 no matter what he does, and he's dealing lol 5 dmg with Iron, 8 with Steel....but the knight has 27 HP, so Ike's not even THREE rounding the guy WITH STEEL. He's staying the hell away from this guy unless Soren or someone weakens it.

Hmm.

10-11 damage to boyd who has just as much HP.

whut

lvl 1 Boyd has more HP than lvl 15 Ike

how are they having the same HP, ever? Boyd has like 10 more HP than Ike at that point.

21 HP and 4 defense are also potential.

lvl 8 myrm: 22 HP and 5 def, no deviation listed

No, they're not?

Rhys, Mia, Soren are screwed. If you need numbers behind this, you really are crazy.

no shit rhys is screwed if he's attacked. He's not valued for his tanking ability.

Mia sucks, everybody knows this. How is her sucking making Ike sucking less?

soren is meh anyways

At any rate, the chance of all three hitting is like 12.5%, and the chance of two hitting is 25%. 38% chance of 2 or 3 hitting though, but only two at a time unless you suck at blocking chokeholds.

the problem here isn't that he's getting killed

but moreso that while Rhys likes seeing Ike getting raped because the first thing that pops into his mind is "hay, EXP!" it doesn't really benefit Ike at all.

12 Stefan at Chapter 18? Are you kidding me? That's assuming he gets 133-134 EXP per chapter

i think you mean like 80 EXP a chapter

15

16

17-1

17-2

17-3

17-4

BEXP exists, too. If you're using Stefan, he's getting some.

Oscar has Canto.

...This is worsening Ike's situation. Not improving it.

My view on "FAVORITISM" is that each should be allowed mutual access to it. Ike gets +4% Evade/Dodge and Stefan does too.

1: It's two evade/dodge.

2: You totally ignored my point about how Ike doesn't give a shit about luck whereas it can help Stefan out by reducing more crit rates to 0, which benefits more than Ike dodging almost nothing he wouldn't before. Dodge boost also doesn't help Ike since he's good on luck.

Again, why?

again, 20 Ike at the end/middle of C15=not happening

Final point: Stefan costs a slot, Ike does not. Ike is forced into every chapter.

o snap

Titania costs a slot, Ike does not

Oscar costs a slot, Ike does not

Jill costs a slot, Ike does not

Kieran costs a slot, Ike does not

ike for his own tier, everybody else to bottom!

[Lord Raven]

1-2% rates?!

yeah no. 1-2 is nothing. I can't believe you even tried to argue that.

It refutes your point of crit values outright not existing. Point against Stefan however minor it is.

O SNAP LET'S KEEP STEFAN AWAY CUZ HE HAS A MARGINAL CHANCE OF BEING CRITTED NEVER MIND THAT HE HAS A WAY BIGGER CHANCE OF KILLING EVERYTHING LOL

O SNAP LET'S NOT PUT WORDS INTO THE OTHER DEBATER'S MOUTH LOL

47% still isn't very good.

It's almost one half. How is that "not very good"?

Hit prioritizes crit, so that 19% crit, which is pretty meh to begin with, is even lower than what it looks like.

19% crit on like 50-55% hit. That sounds like 9-11% true crit to me, and that's still somewhat probable to occur.

lvl 20 Ike in C15, especially since Ike hates C15=not happening. His fail earlygame also holds him down.

Wow, you've multiplied your vagueness a million points.

-- Why does his "early game" fail? Well actually that comes later.

-- Why does he "hate C15"? Maybe Ike gets orgasmic pleasure from it.

I was moreso referring to the def boost.

Yeah and his defense matters when he gets attacked. If he's not getting attacked, then Vague Katti won't be used. If he is getting attacked, it'll either be ranged or it'll be getting used.

what lack of avoid

Did you not read the first couple paragraphs of my post?

60 something at base sure as hell isn't a lack of avoid

Yeah.. not quite what I'm talking about. You're trivializing luck, and keep reading upwards.

And obviously, if Ike's earlygame didn't blow, that would be a point for him, since he was kicking ass before Stefan even existed and made him more useful overall

sadly, it was more along the lines of Ike getting his ass KICKED

You're the king of not backing things up.

My rebuttal: his early game doesn't blow, it's pretty cool, and he's kicking ass before Stefan exists. Now what?

What seems like a plus at first becomes his eventual downfall.

You're being vague again.

My proof's right there. See the comparisons vs the Myrms.

k

It won't happen all the time. Oscar's got a lot of shit to do, and he can do it faster than Ike. Oscar can take the mages, archers, or other things. Unlike Ike, Oscar isn't in mortal peril from one or two hits, and can stay in the fight longer.

According to your own numbers, Ike dies from three Steel Lance hits, four or five myrmidons, and a bunch of archer hits.

Oscar and Ike benefit equally from their support anyway. And besides the 21 hit goes up to 31 without Oscar anyway, which isn't that large a difference.

And 2 more mt being the difference between a one round and a two round counters THAT.

Not quite. In fact I do not think either of our points should be valid because we lack backup.

10 is pushing it, and you're trying to argue ELEVEN?

You've yet to explain why L10 is "pushing it" when I've probably explained it a lot better than you.

the wpn knights have 8 spd

Ike has 12 spd with iron swd

Ike has 10 spd with stl sword

Ike can no longer double if he uses Steel sword.

That's how it's borderline doubling.

You're using the Regal Sword against these mofos because it does a lot more damage (24 attack x2? Hell yeah).

....but the knight has 27 HP, so Ike's not even THREE rounding the guy WITH STEEL. He's staying the hell away from this guy unless Soren or someone weakens it.

Regal Sword

lvl 1 Boyd has more HP than lvl 15 Ike

I meant "dies in as many hits."

lvl 8 myrm: 22 HP and 5 def, no deviation listed

Sorry, I missed the L8 part.

the problem here isn't that he's getting killed

but moreso that while Rhys likes seeing Ike getting raped because the first thing that pops into his mind is "hay, EXP!" it doesn't really benefit Ike at all.

Actually it does because Rhys only needs to make that one Heal, then Ike can handle himself with Vulneraries because the Myrmidons do like 5 damage then eventually 8/11 (and yeah, these have hit rates in the 50s as well so....), and he'll likely only handle two at a time. And he'll evade one of the steel myrmidons if probability is proven correct.

i think you mean like 80 EXP a chapter

If he's getting 80 EXP per chapter everyone else is getting two or three level-ups.

= (21 + [enemy's Power - Power]) / 2 + Easy mode bonus

Plug 15 for enemies and 28 for Stefan.

So you get 8/2 = 4.

= (Battle Exp base + [enemy's Power - Power] + Mode bonus + Boss bonus + Thief bonus) x Skill coefficient

4 + (15 - 28) + 15 = 6 EXP per kill.

This is L20/8 vs L15, of course the EXP per kill is going to increase by like 2 per level but it requires he get like 13 or 14 kills per chapter which is extreme favoritism towards him over anyone else. These chapters have enemies in the 20s so, as a result, long-term use of him = depriving the rest of your team of EXP that could've been used on other chars.

Some kills? Alright. Half the enemies? Not cool. One kill a turn, then there's the fact that unless Stefan goes by himself (every other hit hits him and does like 20% worth of damage, so feel free to refute this), enemy AI will go towards weaker units and stuff because they don't want to get killed.

BEXP exists, too. If you're using Stefan, he's getting some.

Other units can get 2 levels and get better with the BEXP Stefan takes to get a level up. Stefan using BEXP makes him a bit more offensively overkill when you get him, and doesn't improve his defense that much. Other chars using BEXP to get twice as many levels worth (or even 1 and a half; see this chart http://www.serenesforest.net/fe9/bonus_exp.htm) to get equally the same growths is pretty much better.

...This is worsening Ike's situation. Not improving it.

1: It's two evade/dodge.

Oh, then it doesn't help either situation.

2: You totally ignored my point about how Ike doesn't give a shit about luck whereas it can help Stefan out by reducing more crit rates to 0, which benefits more than Ike dodging almost nothing he wouldn't before. Dodge boost also doesn't help Ike since he's good on luck.

You even said so yourself that the 1-2% crit is superfluous and very negligible, so isn't this a rather superfluous (rather, very minor) type of advantage he gets for using the Ashera Icon that Ike does not?

again, 20 Ike at the end/middle of C15=not happening

Wow proof? I keep saying L17 anyway.

o snap

Titania costs a slot, Ike does not

Oscar costs a slot, Ike does not

Jill costs a slot, Ike does not

Kieran costs a slot, Ike does not

ike for his own tier, everybody else to bottom!

I never even weighed the point htat high, but if you're going to use that argument on tiers, you're going to get chewed out.

It's a point against Stefan because it takes a slot away from a myriad of other units that could be using it, anyway. Ike does not suffer from this.

Edited February 8, 2009 by Nathan Graves