Who should get ambush?

[Dat Nick]

The bonus Sol manual you get from Eyrios is also a big plus, seeing as how Sol is one of, if not the best skill in the game.

Making Othin as powerful as Shiva defensively is pretty much raep

Edited February 25, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[NoNameAtAll]

The bonus Sol manual you get from Eyrios is also a big plus, seeing as how Sol is one of, if not the best skill in the game.

Making Othin as powerful as Shiva defensively is pretty much raep

Really?

*Imagines the possibilities.* Othin + Sol + Wrath...Othin has like...1 HP. Sol activates as does Wrath due to counterattack.

...OH SHIT.

[Dat Nick]

Wrath doesn't need to be at low HP to activate. It ALWAYS activates on the counter.

So even if you somehow manage to get Othin to low HP, he'll sol himself back up sooner or later. Works much better on him than Ambush, since they were smart enough to make Wrath and Ambush slightly cancel each other out

[Fia]

Works much better on him than Ambush, since they were smart enough to make Wrath and Ambush slightly cancel each other out

Because they don't want another broken combination like in FE4. Too bad, it's only can happen if you pair Adan or Lex with Tiltyu. : <

[Seph]

That is a BAD THING. Requiring an item that many people want to not completely suck is absolutely terrible. Not to mention that half the cast has access to 1-2 range once Master weapons start coming around.

Ambush doesn't make much of a difference actually. It just makes Olwen (with her 60 uses DaimThunder) kill things before they touch her, and if it misses, she's screwed.

Also, you get Ambush in Chapter 12. Why wait for Master weapons?

It just helps her more than it helps others, so she has the most claim on it.

Anyway, most people that say Olwen >>> Eyrios do so because of Ambush. If you can prove that Olwen's >>> Eyrios without it, go right ahead.

This is sooooo simple.

Like 8 chapters of availability + early long range tomes + Daim Thunder + being able to use scrolls more + 4 PC + Holy Sword > Eyrios's 9 magic base at level 8 + poor AS with Tron, not strong enough to kill things with other tomes + Sunlight Sword + Prayer (Olwen gets Prayer too on Chapter 22) + 0 PC

Eyrios may have durability, but he can't dish out enough damage.

Edited February 25, 2009 by Shanan

[grandjackal]

Like 8 chapters of availability + early long range tomes + Daim Thunder + being able to use scrolls more + 4 PC + Holy Sword > Eyrios's 9 magic base at level 8 + poor AS with Tron, not strong enough to kill things with other tomes + Sunlight Sword + Prayer (Olwen gets Prayer too on Chapter 22) + 0 PC

Eyrios may have durability, but he can't dish out enough damage.

8 chapters where she sucks + the one early thunderstorm tome of 5 woop-dee-doo uses + A weapon she has to rely on to do anything and reduces her to a glorified arch knight + 4 PC that WOULD be good if she wasn't as easy to rip through as tissue paper + Holy sword she gets incredibly late < Eryios able to use a Master Sword showing up with the strength to actually use it well + More attack speed with Tron then Olwen will considering he's faster than her + Solar Shot hax + Having Prayer without needing to wait for it + Comes with his own Thunderstorm tome (since you're making so big a deal of Olwen having one, his comes FREE too, no need to go out and capture a bishop in a ballistae littered map) AND a Solar Shot manual to make ANOTHER person hax + Durability that actually exists + ...well...0 PC

How are there people trying to argue Olwen is better? Hell, he puts Ambush to better use than she does. Only stat she has over him is magic, and he has enough.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Less than 8 chapters actually. Fatigue, that's why.

[Seph]

8 chapters where she sucks

Bullshit. Fucking bullshit.

She has very early access to long range tomes. That alone makes her not suck.

She also has a mount. She has DaimThunder. 15 might + Hero weapon + 1-2 range + targets Mag + 10 crit? Yes please.

She can hold a sword / Wind on the enemy phase, which makes her durable enough. And then she has 4 PC. She's killing a lot of shit.

the one early thunderstorm tome of 5 woop-dee-doo uses

Thunderstorm

10

Enemy Bishop

11x

Enemy Orutof

13

Enemy Bishop

14

Enemy Bishop

16A

Eyrios

17A

Enemy Bishop

21

Enemy Bishop

21x

Enemy Bishop x2

21x

Chest

22

Enemy Bishop x2

A weapon she has to rely on to do anything and reduces her to a glorified arch knight

Did you even PLAY the fucking game? She has 4 PC. EYRIOS HAS 0.

That alone makes her kick ass. In FE5, your base attack is x2 for crits. She will be killing things without Daim Thunder, easily. Enemy sample:

Chapter 12, brigands only have about 70 hit and 14-19 (mostly 15-16) might - which means 3HKO on Olwen. The enemies, while Olwen is holding a sword, have tiny hit on Olwen (somewhere around 30).

4 PC that WOULD be good if she wasn't as easy to rip through as tissue paper

Above enemy sample proves that FE5 enemies cannot do that at all.

Also, Wind / sword makes her dodge more. And she can double things.

Holy sword she gets incredibly late

She has a part of Chapter 22 to use it, and all of 23, 24, 24x and Final. Pretty good, not incredibly late at all. Those chapters are pretty long too.

Eryios able to use a Master Sword showing up with the strength to actually use it well

http://fea.fewiki.net/fea.php?character=eyrios&game=5

Eyrios comes with 6 build. Master Sword has 15 weight. He gets 5 AS from Master Sword. 24 avoid. Massive failure. Even Prayer won't help him. Random armor knight (Chapter 17A) has 30 HP and 12 def and more than 1 AS. The only things he can kill in that chapter are the soldiers.. armor knights are everywhere there.

Dark mages rape him.

And why is Eyrios using the Master Sword when he can barely kill anything?

More attack speed with Tron then Olwen will considering he's faster than her

He needs Tron because he has a mere 9 magic. Olwen doesn't. She'll be level 9 at 17, meaning 13 magic. That means 19 might with Wind, and she has 12 AS. She has no need for Tron.

Eyrios has like 5 AS with Tron. One hit can't kill enough enemies.

Solar Shot hax

Yeaaaaaah I'm sure 15% is VERY reliable after all.

Having Prayer without needing to wait for it

This is unarguable, butFE5's 1 RN system + raped RNG makes this not as useful as it could be.

AND a Solar Shot manual to make ANOTHER person hax

Sun sword is seriously unreliable.. skill%. Which means, a maximum of 20% activation. It can help in some random events.

But _never_ is it reliable. Not hax at all.

Durability that actually exists

Durability is good, but offense is needed if you want to beat chapters efficiently.

But Eyrios has poor offense, especially when he comes. Once he starts fixing it (never actually, 0 PC), Olwen is already way ahead.

Oh wait, Olwen is always way ahead. 4 PC vs 0 PC.

How are there people trying to argue Olwen is better? Hell, he puts Ambush to better use than she does. Only stat she has over him is magic, and he has enough.

You're biased against her.

Less than 8 chapters actually. Fatigue, that's why.

You never know when fatigue is going to hit, so it can be in any of those 8 chapters.

Edited February 25, 2009 by Shanan

[Dr. Tarrasque]

You never know when fatigue is going to hit, so it can be in any of those 8 chapters.

I don't? There's a fatigue counter you can easily see and she's unable to join a chapter if her fatigue = her HP (which we all know is low) in the previous. She's not joining every one of those 8 chapters unless you abuse to get lots of money and buy S drinks just for her.

Edited February 25, 2009 by Levin

[Seph]

I don't? There's a fatigue counter and she's unable to join a chapter if her fatigue = her HP in the previous. She's not joining every one of those 8 chapters unless you abuse to get lots of money and buy S drinks just for her.

No, that's not the point I was trying to make.

She can be in any of those 8 chapters (depending on the player), she may not be in one, but that fatigue point goes for Eyrios, too.

Since Eyrios is more durable, he may be in more battles, which counts more in fatigue. Not sure at all about this point though.

Edited February 25, 2009 by Shanan

[Dr. Tarrasque]

No, that's not the point I was trying to make.

She can be in any of those 8 chapters (depending on the player), she may not be in one, but that fatigue point goes for Eyrios, too.

Since Eyrios is more durable, he may be in more battles, which counts more in fatigue. Not sure at all about this point though.

Doesn't this kinda go against Olwen since it's suggesting that she needs babying? If she's not getting fatigue, you're not using her that much and if that's the case, she's hardly improving and contributing anything to you.

Durability is good, but offense is needed if you want to beat chapters efficiently.

But Eyrios has poor offense, especially when he comes. Once he starts fixing it (never actually, 0 PC), Olwen is already way ahead.

Oh wait, Olwen is always way ahead. 4 PC vs 0 PC.

Wait what? You've got Asvel, Othin, Fin, Carrion, Felgus and basically most people that you've recruited up to this point with enough offense but not much durability. Durability is always welcome. If we're talking about efficiency, that goes against Olwen since you have to constantly have her attack like an Arch Knight because of her bad durability. Eyrios' offense isn't as poor as you think, also, who says he always has to use Thoron? You're using Thoron if doubling with Wind/Fire/Thunder will dish out less damage.

Olwen has crap offense and crap durability and all of her usefulness relies on the use of a tome that makes it so enemies can double her and it only has 70% hit so it's gonna miss often enough to let enemies walk all over her.

Edited February 25, 2009 by Levin

[Seph]

Doesn't this kinda go against Olwen since it's suggesting that she needs babying? If she's not getting fatigue, you're not using her that much and if that's the case, she's hardly improving and contributing anything to you.

No, she is getting fatigue. I said she wasn't? Read below for the other argument.

Wait what? You've got Asvel, Othin, Fin, Carrion, Felgus and basically most people that you've recruited up to this point with enough offense but not much durability. Durability is always welcome. If we're talking about efficiency, that goes against Olwen since you have to constantly have her attack like an Arch Knight because of her bad durability. Eyrios' offense isn't as poor as you think, also, who says he always has to use Thoron? You're using Thoron if doubling with Wind/Fire/Thunder will dish out less damage.

Durability is always welcome, I never denied that. But durability.. is just not as useful as it was before. Fatigue really hurts here. You can't use your units to take hits all the time, it increases fatigue too much. For that reason, Eyrios's durability, while a good thing, is not that great at all. Eyrios can't show off his durability much this way, so I think you can figure out the rest from here.

But.. Eyrios doesn't have good offense. It's downright bad. 0 PC is already terrible, but 9 magic base? Seriously?

Eyrios on coming:

Thoron: 27 might, 5 AS (just.. no)

Elfire: 20 might, 7 AS (still has doubling problems, and killing things with higher HP)

Fire: 14 might, 10 AS (no)

Thunder: 16 might, 9 AS (definitely not, even doubling can't help this)

Chapter 19 enemy samples:

Cavalier: 38 HP, 9 AS

Arch Knight: 36 HP, 10 AS

Eyrios can get doubled with Thoron!

In short: Eyrios has might and doubling issues.

Olwen has crap offense and crap durability and all of her usefulness relies on the use of a tome that makes it so enemies can double her and it only has 70% hit so it's gonna miss often enough to let enemies walk all over her.

Crap offense? With 4 PC and DaimThunder, 11 magic base and targeting magic? Did you think through things?

Crap durability? Fixed by holding Wind / sword on enemy phase. 4 PC makes her kill plenty.

Edited February 25, 2009 by Shanan

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Why are you comparing Eyrios' base stats against enemies that come 3 chapters later? Also, he's not getting doubled with Thoron (and read my comment about Thoron again) as often as you think... there's several mounted enemies with low SPD and many have around 5 SPD.

Ok maybe I went a bit overboard by saying her offense sucks but her offense is basically that of an Arch Knight due to how easy she is to kill. Even with wind, she will get hit and she will take lots of damage due to her DEF. It's not fixed, she's just capable of living a little longer and if that 4 PC mean she's killing, she's only opening herself to more attacks.

Edited February 25, 2009 by Levin

[Seph]

Why are you comparing Eyrios' base stats against enemies that come 3 chapters later? Also, he's not getting doubled with Thoron (and read my comment about Thoron again) as often as you think... there's several mounted enemies with 0 SPD in his route.

He's not doing much in 16 (comes very late), 18 (no one is actually.. because of the Lensters and their crappy exp).

He'll probably only gain 1 level. And 1 AS is going to make a difference if he gains another level anyway?

Ok maybe I went a bit overboard by saying her offense sucks but her offense is basically that of an Arch Knight due to how easy she is to kill. Even with wind, she will get hit and she will take lots of damage due to her DEF. It's not fixed, she's just capable of living a little longer and if that 4 PC mean she's killing, she's only opening herself to more attacks.

Her offense is seriously great. 4 PC AND DaimThunder AND targets magic AND is always 1-2 range AND a likely Ambush? Sign me up.

Pffft.

Olwen at chapter 14 (level 4, Wind, no scrolls for generosity): 25 HP, 16 might, 114 hit, 10 AS, 26 avoid, 4 def, 10 res, 19 crit.

Olwen at chapter 14 (level 4, DaimThunder): 25 HP, 25 might, 94 hit, 0 AS, 5 avoid, 4 def, 10 res, 19 crit.

Some random armor knight with Javelin: 25 HP, 15 might, 66 hit, 10 avoid, 3 magic.

Some random armor knight with Battle Axe: 26 HP, 21 might, 76 hit, 16 avoid, 2 magic

They are pretty inaccurate, and Olwen rapes them all with her massive 4 PC. Thanks to their crap hit, she'll be dodging somewhat.

And this is a chapter in which Olwen is poor in.

Edited February 25, 2009 by Shanan

[Dr. Tarrasque]

He's not doing much in 16 (comes very late), 18 (no one is actually.. because of the Lensters and their crappy exp).

He'll probably only gain 1 level. And 1 AS is going to make a difference if he gains another level anyway?

According to the data you presented in the previous post, 1 more AS means he's not getting doubled by the 9 SPD enemies while using Thoron >_>. Again, you're not gonna use Thoron unless it dishes out more damage than doubling with Wind/Thunder/Fire. Also, since you can just trade a wind to the top of Olwen's inventory to increase her avoid, you can do the same for Eyrios...

Her durability still sucks and she's not gonna see much combat because of it.

Edited February 25, 2009 by Levin

[Seph]

According to the data you presented in the previous post, 1 more AS means he's not getting doubled by the 9 SPD enemies while using Thoron >_>. Again, you're not gonna use Thoron unless it dishes out more damage than doubling with Wind/Thunder/Fire. Also, since you can just trade a wind to the top of Olwen's inventory to increase her avoid, you can do the same for Eyrios...

Her durability still sucks and she's not gonna see much combat because of it.

I said:

Eyrios can get doubled with Thoron!

So why would you use it anyway? 1 AS makes no difference.

Her durability doesn't matter as much when you've got very early access to Meteor / Bolting. Also, there's Leaf's support, which increases her avoid by 10 (increasing durability) and then leadership bonus. And then, you have a likely Ambush + DaimThunder, helped by Leaf's support and leadership stars again. What else? Oh, enemies have crap hit, as I showed. She is dodging significantly.

Her durability is not as bad as you're trying to say it is. Scrolls help here. Trading is very flexible in FE5, so it's not a big problem at all. Not needing scrolls > needing scrolls, but Eyrios likes magic scrolls, so...

Her offense is godly though.

Also, since you can just trade a wind to the top of Olwen's inventory to increase her avoid, you can do the same for Eyrios...

Huh? Eyrios's problem isn't avoid. No point here.

Edited February 25, 2009 by Shanan

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Her durability doesn't matter as much when you've got very early access to Meteor / Bolting. Also, there's Leaf's support, which increases her avoid by 10 (increasing durability) and then leadership bonus. And then, you have a likely Ambush + DaimThunder, helped by Leaf's support and leadership stars again. What else? Oh, enemies have crap hit, as I showed. She is dodging significantly.

Her durability is not as bad as you're trying to say it is. Scrolls help here. Trading is very flexible in FE5, so it's not a big problem at all. Not needing scrolls > needing scrolls, but Eyrios likes magic scrolls, so...

Her offense is godly though.

Huh? Eyrios's problem isn't avoid. No point here.

Only Bolting. Daim Thunder still has accuracy issues and if she misses just once, she's getting doubled. She has to rely on the ambush scroll to become good, that's a bad thing because like it's been said, every1 who can use Brave Weapons wants ambush too. Ambush on Asvel helps make the game a bit easier to SSS so as likely as it is that Olwen is the best candidate for ambush, she's not always entitled to it.

Needing ambush = bad.

Edited February 25, 2009 by Levin

[Seph]

Only Bolting. Daim Thunder still has accuracy issues and if she misses just once, she's getting doubled. She has to rely on the ambush scroll to become good, that's a bad thing because like it's been said, every1 who can use Brave Weapons wants ambush too. Ambush on Asvel helps make the game a bit easier to SSS so as likely as it is that Olwen is the best candidate for ambush, she's not always entitled to it.

Bolting helps.

Thunderstorm

10

Enemy Bishop

11x

Enemy Orutof

13

Enemy Bishop

14

Enemy Bishop

16A

Eyrios

17A

Enemy Bishop

21

Enemy Bishop

21x

Enemy Bishop x2

21x

Chest

22

Enemy Bishop x2

FE5 enemies have crappy avoid. Olwen has like 100 hit, further helped by leadership bonuses and Leaf support. It will have a hard time missing.

No, she does not have to rely on the Ambush scroll to become good at all. Can you PLEASE read my previous posts?

SSS? What the fuck are you talking about? SSS is basically Warp skipping bullshit. Nothing to debate about.

And also, Olwen has more claim on it. Again, I posted why BEFORE, and you didn't even reply to it.

1. She is less durable than the other Brave weapon users, so killing everything before they hit her is more useful to her

2. She has 1-2 range

3. She gets 2 DaimThunders AND Holy Sword

Edited February 25, 2009 by Shanan

[Dr. Tarrasque]

1. No, she does not have to rely on the Ambush scroll to become good at all. Can you PLEASE read my previous posts?

2. SSS? What the fuck are you talking about? SSS is basically Warp skipping bullshit. Nothing to debate about.

3. And also, Olwen has more claim on it. Again, I posted why BEFORE, and you didn't even reply to it.

1. She is less durable than the other Brave weapon users, so killing everything before they hit her is more useful to her

2. She has 1-2 range

3. She gets 2 DaimThunders AND Holy Sword

1. Without ambush she's basically an Arch Knight since she'll die quickly.

2. I disagree. There's rankings in this game so that should be factored in. You keep bringing up Olwen's offense as if the combat rank exists. Eyrios' better durability helps out with the Survival rank, which does exist.

3. Just because she is the best candidate doesn't mean you should consider it as if she starts out with that skill. Even with Ambush + Daim Thunder she can easily die and you have to baby her to prevent this. I read all your posts and am only replying to things I disagree with.

[Seph]

Sigh, this is just basically me repeating whatever I say.

1. Without ambush she's basically an Arch Knight since she'll die quickly.

I don't like repeating myself. Enemies have crap hit and poor might generally, leadership, support, etc.

2. I disagree. There's rankings in this game so that should be factored in. You keep bringing up Olwen's offense as if the combat rank exists. Eyrios' better durability helps out with the Survival rank, which does exist.

More offense = more enemies dead = faster = more efficient.

In a debate, to my understanding, it's generally assumed that you reset the game when a character dies.

3. Just because she is the best candidate doesn't mean you should consider it as if she starts out with that skill. Even with Ambush + Daim Thunder she can easily die and you have to baby her to prevent this. I read all your posts and am only replying to things I disagree with.

I said "more claim", meaning, I'm not considering as if she starts out with it.

And.. I said before, and seen on my previous samples, poor hit, might. DaimThunder with leadership, support means she is tough to kill..

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I'm done arguing here for now, most of your points are valid but I guess I just disagree since I prefer durability over offense and just don't think that giving her ambush should play a role in how good she is.

Anyway, comparing the lvl 4 Olwen you mentioned earlier with C14 enemy stats and everything, he's a couple of things I found (and this was all done with Leaf standing adjacent to her):

1: Enemy's hit % against her range from 40%-75%. Ballistae had 77% on her. Everything would kill her in 2 hits.

2: Olwen's accuracy ranged from 80%-99%. Probability of an enemy surviving Olwen + Dime Thunder Ambush being 2%-36%.

Ambush is best on her though, not denying that.

[Seph]

I'm done arguing here for now, most of your points are valid but I guess I just disagree since I prefer durability over offense and just don't think that giving her ambush should play a role in how good she is.

Durability > offense.. but, there are other reasons why Olwen is superior.

I prefer Olwen's long range tomes, superior availability (several chapters), far superior offense (prf weapons).

The MAIN reason why Olwen >>> Eyrios, however, is the fact that Eyrios is route dependent. I should have brought that up but the debate was so centralized towards other things.

Anyway, comparing the lvl 4 Olwen you mentioned earlier with C14 enemy stats and everything, he's a couple of things I found (and this was all done with Leaf standing adjacent to her):

Yeah, that's why I only used armor knights in my comparison (ballistae can't reach her south, there's one but you'd have to go pretty damn south for that).

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Why's the route thing a minus for Eyrios? Isn't his route the easier/less annoying one?

[Fia]

Why's the route thing a minus for Eyrios? Isn't his route the easier/less annoying one?

Eh? His route is harder, IMO.

[Seph]

Why's the route thing a minus for Eyrios? Isn't his route the easier/less annoying one?

Eyrios's route is the way harder / annoying one. The A route.

The B route is the way easier / less annoying one.

And really, having to go to one of two routes just to recruit a character sucks. Olwen can potentially be around forever, while Eyrios depends on the player's decision of routes.

It's basically what makes Olwen > Eyrios in the first place.

Edited February 25, 2009 by Shanan