Who should get ambush?

[General Spoon]

Solar Shot isn't that good.

Shiva disagrees. Have you seen the stunts that this ability allows him to pull off?

Edited February 24, 2009 by Navarre

[Kriemhild]

Yes I damn well can because recruiting him means I get it all for free without having to waste thief staff uses.

I can also give ambush to Eryios to give him a chance to activate Solar Shot to make him hard to kill without having to rely on a heavy-ass weapon that isn't even garunteed to hit.

Not by much? You fucking kidding me? He starts with nearly twice her base HP and MORE than double her defense! How the hell is this not by much? Olwen doesn't grow into a tank either. They have the same growths, but his bases just flat out destroy her. Her stats will in no way be better or even close to his bases in durability. She has speed and magic on him, but it's not like his offense is terribad, especially since he can use physical weapons on mages instead of attacking their stronger resistance. Eryios able to not rely on a weapon until still being crushed by any physical attacker > Olwen's offense with the risky Dime Thunder.

Solar Shot sucks? It's better than needing to be given Ambush of which Mareeta and Shiva could probably use it better, as Dime Thunder doesn't have perfect accuracy. If she misses, she easily gets her ass kicked, ambush or not. Eryios shouldn't rely on Solar Shot, but at least he doesn't HAVE to rely on it. Unlike Olwen with ambush AND dime thunder...

Olwen is a glorified arch knight at best.

Fine. Thief Staff is only for the Master Sword. You'll get more Master Swords later on so you don't need to waste a Thief Staff. Lifis or Pahn should have decent build to steal Thoron if they trained with Neir scroll. Solar Manual can even be stolen by Lara.

Olwen doesn't rely on DaimThunder. She can do really well with Wind. And when she does, she dodges better than Eyrios. And why would Eyrios need to use physical weapons? To fight against mages? Well, by the time dark mages become a threat Olwen will already get Holy Sword. There's no way Eyrios could beat that. And the mages in Ch 20 have laughably low Mag so Wind is good enough. If she has a decent Hit, then DaimThunder crushes the enemy. She shouldn't use it all the time.

I never said that Solar skill is bad. I simply said that it's not as reliable as you said it was. And Ambush is best given to someone who can kill the enemy before they counterattack or it won't make a difference. Having 1-2 range is also preferred so Olwen IS the best candidate. Accept it. Olwen gets Ambush, Eyrios gets Wrath. Marita and Shiva aren't better candidates of Ambush. And like I said, Olwen doesn't RELY on DaimThunder all the time.

Olwen is an awesome Mage Knight.

[Don Draper]

^You're going completely off of personal experience. Also lol at Solar Shot not being that great. 20% chance to heal yourself means its going off about once every 2-3. That's invaluable, and any defensive skill>>>>>>>any offensive skill in this game.

A character is also not entitled to an item just because you think they make "the best" use of it. Nephenee is the best character to give Vantage to in FE9, but that means nothing in debates/tier lists. Which is why she's Upper Mid instead of somewhere in High.

Edited February 24, 2009 by IOS

[Seph]

Eyrios gets Wrath

No. Not being able to use Wrath for soooo many chapters is bad for efficiency.

20% chance to heal yourself means its going off about once every 2-3.

...Huh?

A character is also not entitled to an item just because you think they make "the best" use of it. Nephenee is the best character to give Vantage to in FE9, but that means nothing in debates/tier lists. Which is why she's Upper Mid instead of somewhere in High.

It's in the game. You can't ignore it.

Not only that, but also, resources should be divided among who can use them the best.

http://z15.invisionfree.com/Fire_Emblem_Sp...?showtopic=6107

Mordecai should get the Speedwing from Chapter 13.

Why? Because he gets the most out of it. Who’s going to compete with him for the Speedwing?

In one case, your team is improving by 15. In the other, your team is only improving by 10. So what are you going to do? You’re going to give the Speedwing to Mordecai.

It's very similar to our situation.

[Don Draper]

It's in the game. You can't ignore it.

Not only that, but also, resources should be divided among who can use them the best.

http://z15.invisionfree.com/Fire_Emblem_Sp...?showtopic=6107

Mordecai should get the Speedwing from Chapter 13.

Why? Because he gets the most out of it. Who’s going to compete with him for the Speedwing?

In one case, your team is improving by 15. In the other, your team is only improving by 10. So what are you going to do? You’re going to give the Speedwing to Mordecai.

Olwen isn't entitled to Ambush, end of story. Therefore Eryios>Her

It's very similar to our situation.

I'm not ignoring it. Pretty much everybody wants Ambush who can use a Brave weapon (Which is pretty much...everybody), so why should Olwen get it?

And posting a year and a half old debate from a random board doesn't help your cause at all. How about we post something from this very board.

4. Resources

An often made mistake by beginning debaters is that stat holes and other shortcomings of a unit can be fixed by the excuse of beneficial treatment. In other words, Oswin's Spd can be fixed by a Speedwing, Micaiah's HP matters not so much in the face of an Angelic Robe, Largo being underleveled is no more the case thanks to BEXP, and Edward's mediocre offense later on is fixed by the Wrath skill.

The problem with such arguments is that these resources are accessible to about anyone. We can increase Oswin's Spd by 2, but we can do the same to everyone else with that Speedwing, and he will still be behind. Of course, some people like Guy do not need a Speedwing at all. Obviously, not needing a Speedwing is a huge advantage, because that means someone else can get it. Debating is not only about making your unit look as good as possible, but also the rest of the team.

The same applies to all other kinds of beneficial treatment. This ranges from giving them lots of BEXP, skills, setting up kills for them to fix their low offense, protecting them from harm on enemy phase to fix their low defense, etcetera. In the end, having a problem is always worse than not having a problem. The fact that resources are available is a benefit overall, but since everyone has an equal right to consume each of those resources, they are better off ignored.

On a related note, don't make the mistake of counting your unit's starting weapon as an advantage for them in a game where trading is done before you can say "gimme". Guy comes with a Killing Edge. I do not need to move, fight, or use Guy in any way to use that Killing Edge though. All I need to get that Killing Edge into my inventory is talk to him with Matthew. Renault comes with a Fortify Staff, but I just need his village, and not Renault's capabilities, to use it. Continuing on this line of logic, Dart does not get credit for Geitz and his fighting capabilities, and Clarine is not the one that allows you to use Rutger's offensive prowess. All they do is letting you use their weapons. For everything else, you need to move Geitz/Rutger, and not Dart/Clarine.

Note that you can only count a resource as your unit's advantage if your unit brings that to the team where you would not have it otherwise. Without Clarine, you would not have Rutger's Killing Edge. Without Colm, you would not have that Energy Ring from the Mage in Ch7. Without Hector, you would not be able to use the Wolf Beil to your advantage. Without Neimi, you would (likely) not be able to use Nidhogg (the S-rank bow), because the only other unit with a high bow weapon level is Innes. Which brings me to my next point.

Edited February 24, 2009 by IOS

[Seph]

From the same person,

Note that on the instance that Olwen is attacked when holding Daim Thunder, she gets hit once, then she probably kills the enemy before it can attack again. Or she can get Ambush (omg favouritism...except who the fuck wants to use Ambush as well? Fin maybe) and rape enemies before they attack her.

[General Spoon]

I'm not ignoring it. Pretty much everybody wants Ambush who can use a Brave weapon (Which is pretty much...everybody), so why should Olwen get it?

And posting a year and a half old debate from a random board doesn't help your cause at all. How about we post something from this very board.

tl;dr version is that not needing ambush>over needing ambush to stay alive in battle.

Edited February 24, 2009 by Navarre

[Dr. Tarrasque]

(omg favouritism...except who the fuck wants to use Ambush as well? Fin maybe)

That line's pretty much crushed by this:

Pretty much everybody wants Ambush who can use a Brave weapon (Which is pretty much...everybody), so why should Olwen get it?

Ambush on Asvel would make him more broken than he is.

[General Spoon]

You know...I still haven't used my ambush manual. I think it would be prudent to use it soon. I'm on chapter 21x. How many outdoor chapters are left after this chapter?

[Seph]

tl;dr version is that not needing ambush>over needing ambush to stay alive in battle.

Olwen is durable enough with Wind / swords on enemy phase. She mainly has trouble with ballistae.

That line's pretty much crushed by this:

Olwen is less durable and her Brave weapon is 1-2 range, so it's going to do more things. Other characters can stay alive more while Olwen needs it more to stay alive better with DaimThunder (she gets doubled..).

[Don Draper]

That is a BAD THING. Requiring an item that many people want to not completely suck is absolutely terrible. Not to mention that half the cast has access to 1-2 range once Master weapons start coming around.

[General Spoon]

So, how many outdoor chapters left after 21x?

[Liz]

Nanna wants everything. because she is selfish.

GIVE IT TO HER!!!!!!!

[Fia]

Nanna wants everything. because she is selfish.

GIVE IT TO HER!!!!!!!

Stick Nanna to Staff user only, seriously IMO.

[Kriemhild]

That is a BAD THING. Requiring an item that many people want to not completely suck is absolutely terrible. Not to mention that half the cast has access to 1-2 range once Master weapons start coming around.

It's not required for Olwen to be good. She dodges pretty well with Wind and can kill enemies with Wind thanks to her 4 PCC. She's not bad without Ambush but with Ambush, she can use DaimThunder and become invincible. She's still really good WITHOUT Ambush. Even better than Eyrios imo.

So, how many outdoor chapters left after 21x?

Two. Ch 22 and 23. Better start wasting those Dragon Lances and Brave Lances.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

It's not required for Olwen to be good. She dodges pretty well with Wind and can kill enemies with Wind thanks to her 4 PCC. She's not bad without Ambush but with Ambush, she can use DaimThunder and become invincible. She's still really good WITHOUT Ambush. Even better than Eyrios imo.

Two. Ch 22 and 23. Better start wasting those Dragon Lances and Brave Lances.

IYO maybe.

Anyway, most people that say Olwen >>> Eyrios do so because of Ambush. If you can prove that Olwen's >>> Eyrios without it, go right ahead.

[Kriemhild]

IYO maybe.

Anyway, most people that say Olwen >>> Eyrios do so because of Ambush. If you can prove that Olwen's >>> Eyrios without it, go right ahead.

I gave Olwen Ambush book in Ch 24 and she was always good before that.

I think Olwen gets better speed and better magic. So she gets to dodge more and activate Pursuit with Wind. And thanks to her PCC of 4, she is more likely to kill off enemies. Eyrios has better durability and Sol skill but Olwen will be dodging most of the hits thrown at her anyway.

Olwen can use DaimThunder to kill off stronger enemies and then retreat to the back to ensure that she is NOT attacked in the enemy phase since DaimThunder severely reduces her dodging capabilities. This is only for extreme situations and only when there's a really tough enemy that has a decent Hit so it needs to be killed before the counterattack. Also, once her speed gets good, she'll get to double those general/baron bosses and manage to ORKO them with DaimThunder.

Ch 23 is when Dark Mages get annoying. While Eyrios can use his Master Sword or whatever sword he wants, Olwen will be using the Holy Sword which is the best weapon of the game imo. 17 Mt, 20 Crit, Auto-continue, Res+10, grants Prayer skill. Olwen+Holy Sword >>> Eyrios+any sword.

[grandjackal]

Olwen is durable enough with Wind / swords on enemy phase. She mainly has trouble with ballistae.

Olwen is less durable and her Brave weapon is 1-2 range, so it's going to do more things. Other characters can stay alive more while Olwen needs it more to stay alive better with DaimThunder (she gets doubled..).

Key words being NEED and GETS DOUBLED.

Even WITH ambush, she can still miss. Thanks to being weighed down, we just made her easier to hit. Her offense isn't demonic win with wind or swords (lol) though. Her durability still isn't spectacular either.

There's a difference between going from good to better than bad to good. It's not that she doesn't put the skill to good use, it's just that she's sub-par.

To LightBrand...Dodge is not a good thing to rely on in this game. ESPECIALLY if you're being weighed down by Dime Thunder and don't have perfect accuracy to go with it...

Edited February 25, 2009 by Grandjackal

[Kriemhild]

To LightBrand...Dodge is not a good thing to rely on in this game. ESPECIALLY if you're being weighed down by Dime Thunder and don't have perfect accuracy to go with it...

That's why DaimThunder shouldn't be used if you're exposed to the enemy. Wind tome only weighs you down by 1 iirc.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

1. I gave Olwen Ambush book in Ch 24 and she was always good before that.

2. I think Olwen gets better speed and better magic. So she gets to dodge more and activate Pursuit with Wind. And thanks to her PCC of 4, she is more likely to kill off enemies. Eyrios has better durability and Sol skill but Olwen will be dodging most of the hits thrown at her anyway.

3. Olwen can use DaimThunder to kill off stronger enemies and then retreat to the back to ensure that she is NOT attacked in the enemy phase since DaimThunder severely reduces her dodging capabilities. This is only for extreme situations and only when there's a really tough enemy that has a decent Hit so it needs to be killed before the counterattack. Also, once her speed gets good, she'll get to double those general/baron bosses and manage to ORKO them with DaimThunder.

4. Ch 23 is when Dark Mages get annoying. While Eyrios can use his Master Sword or whatever sword he wants, Olwen will be using the Holy Sword which is the best weapon of the game imo. 17 Mt, 20 Crit, Auto-continue, Res+10, grants Prayer skill. Olwen+Holy Sword >>> Eyrios+any sword.

1. Useless statement.

2. http://fea.fewiki.net/fea.php?character=eyrios&game=5

http://fea.fewiki.net/fea.php?character=olwen&game=5

Olwen only wins in magic and Eyrios is raping anyway. Also, that just proves that your statement about Olwen having better SPD is incorrect. PCC isn't helping her that much since Mages easily kill of most units when they double anyway >_>. Eyrios wins dodge too.

3. You may want to prove that she's attacking those units 4 times since the most SPD she can get with Dime Thunder is 8 and there's a boss that's a General with 9 SPD in chapter 10 >_> See Largo, "Vel" means SPD. She's just attacking twice with Dime Thunder and getting her ass kicked if the Baron/General's packing a 1-2 range Master weapon.

4. For the Holy Sword to be usable you have to wait till late in chapter 22 and give up use of the better Mage Knight. As good as the Holy Sword is, Eyrios is probably more useful to you.

TBH, I really don't care how this ends. I just feel like debunking your statements if I can.

Edited February 25, 2009 by Levin

[grandjackal]

Wow, the ONLY stat she leads in is magic!? I might have thought speed would be better, but it appears I was wrong. I look too much at growths without remembering bases it seems...No wonder most of the stuff I say is wrong. At least I was close to right. Beisdes, even if he didn't, he's still fast enough anyways.

But yeah, he statistically spanks Olwen it appears. That, and only way for Olwen to try to get close to competing with him forces you to field the fail that is Fred. If his thunder blade didn't break like paper...

[Kriemhild]

1. Useless statement.

2. http://fea.fewiki.net/fea.php?character=eyrios&game=5

http://fea.fewiki.net/fea.php?character=olwen&game=5

Olwen only wins in magic and Eyrios is raping anyway. Also, that just proves that your statement about Olwen having better SPD is incorrect. PCC isn't helping her that much since Mages easily kill of most units when they double anyway >_>. Eyrios wins dodge too.

3. You may want to prove that she's attacking those units 4 times since the most SPD she can get with Dime Thunder is 8 and there's a boss that's a General with 9 SPD in chapter 10 >_> See Largo, "Vel" means SPD. She's just attacking twice with Dime Thunder and getting her ass kicked if the Baron/General's packing a 1-2 range Master weapon.

4. For the Holy Sword to be usable you have to wait till late in chapter 22 and give up use of the better Mage Knight. As good as the Holy Sword is, Eyrios is probably more useful to you.

TBH, I really don't care how this ends. I just feel like debunking your statements if I can.

1. I know

2. Mages don't easily kill some tougher enemies. Olwen has better magic and a PCC of 4. Olwen is more likely able to kill enemies than Eyrios.

3. The boss thing happened really rarely for me and wasn't my main point. Her DaimThunder can still kill annoying enemies that actually have good Hit.

4. Before Ch 22, Mage Knights won't need swords so Eyrios's starting A rank in swords isn't really an advantage.

And btw, Fred isn't the only one who supports Olwen. Leaf supports her as well.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

1. I know

2. Mages don't easily kill some tougher enemies. Olwen has better magic and a PCC of 4. Olwen is more likely able to kill enemies than Eyrios.

3. The boss thing happened really rarely for me and wasn't my main point. Her DaimThunder can still kill annoying enemies that actually have good Hit.

4. Before Ch 22, Mage Knights won't need swords so Eyrios's starting A rank in swords isn't really an advantage.

And btw, Fred isn't the only one who supports Olwen. Leaf supports her as well.

1. K

2. I know, but who's doing better most of the time? Eyrios.

3. Eyrios does it with better hit and he's doubling as well.

4. ... Against an enemy who dies in 2 hits (either by master sword or magic) and has 1-2 range weapon, which weapon would be the better one to use? Master Sword. A rank in sword does help (the elemental swords are B rank so he's got more magic weapons to work with).

[dondon151]

That is a BAD THING. Requiring an item that many people want to not completely suck is absolutely terrible. Not to mention that half the cast has access to 1-2 range once Master weapons start coming around.

Olwen gets the largest marginal return out of Ambush compared to every other unit. She has access to 1-2 range with 2x attack long before anyone else does (she also exists long before Eyrios does).

2. I know, but who's doing better most of the time? Eyrios.

Not when he's still holding the Norden Line!

Edited February 25, 2009 by dondon151

[grandjackal]

Olwen gets the largest marginal return out of Ambush compared to every other unit. She has access to 1-2 range with 2x attack long before anyone else does (she also exists long before Eyrios does).

Not when he's still holding the Norden Line!

She's also sucking in that time. Without Dime Thunder, she's garbage. With Dime Thunder, she can't be put anywhere near the frontlines or else she gets killed due to how bad her durability is and how badly it weighs her down.

Eryios shows up and just stomps her in...everything. He's got less magic, but not by a huge margin. Hell, HE has more strength! Olwen never even AVERAGES to his base HP. He has more defense, more speed, more skill, comes with a master sword (and can not only use it, he uses it well), Thunderbolt, I believe he's got Tron, Prayer and Soler Blade. The question here is how can anything kill this killface? He pretty much shows up to be awesome. Olwen on the other hand is too busy being garbage. She can kill anything with Dime Thunder (if she hits both strikes), but...that's about it.

Also, Ambush arrives after Eryios shows up in his route, so no matter what either have the option at Ambush. Give it to Olwen and we run a risky chance of her to be able to meta-tank, meaning she takes on crowds by destroying them before they can touch her, like Halvan with his brave axe. Unlike Halvan however, if she misses she runs teh risk of being killed MUCH easier than he does. Eryios on the other hand gets more durability out of it by getting a chance to activate solar shot at a killing blow. He has better aim so he has a better chance of landing a solar shot than Olwen does of two inaccurate shots of Dime Thunder. If it screws up, he still has prayer! Throw in he's MUCH more durable than Olwen will ever be just by showing up....

Eryos just destroys her so bad, it's not even funny.