Who should get ambush?

[Seph]

Olwen is definitely the best candidate for Ambush. Works nicely with DaimThunder and helps fix her fragility since she takes less hits with it. DaimThunder has 15 might, so she will be killing things before they hit her.

I guess it can also go to Fin, Mareeta and Asvel. Maybe Leaf.

[Fia]

Olwen is definitely the best candidate for Ambush. Works nicely with DaimThunder and helps fix her fragility since she takes less hits with it. DaimThunder has 15 might, so she will be killing things before they hit her.

He killed Olwen already for Eyrios.

[Kriemhild]

He killed Olwen already for Eyrios.

That was a really big mistake imo. The only significant advantage of Eyrios is his Prayer skill and Holy Sword gives Olwen Prayer.

[Fia]

That was a really big mistake imo. The only significant advantage of Eyrios is his Prayer skill and Holy Sword gives Olwen Prayer.

Meh, I never bother to get Eyrios after my first playthrough. I prefer Olwen. : /

[Kriemhild]

Meh, I never bother to get Eyrios after my first playthrough. I prefer Olwen. : /

I don't plan to ever get Eyrios after seeing how powerful Olwen+DaimThunder+Ambush is. That combination is invincible to all but ballistae.

[Seph]

He killed Olwen already for Eyrios.

I knew that. Wanted to say it anyway. So I suggested other options.

That was a really big mistake imo. The only significant advantage of Eyrios is his Prayer skill and Holy Sword gives Olwen Prayer.

Yes, it is a pretty bad choice.

[Robert]

Eyrios is better in my opinion.

Olwen is a pain to keep alive before training, and eyrios can use any sword.

[Dat Nick]

The only significant advantage of Eyrios is his Prayer skill.

and a free sol manual

and Eryios having better stats all around

Edited February 22, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[Seph]

and a free sol manual

and Eryios having better stats all around

Olwen also comes at a lower level and comes around for longer, so she can fix her stats (most notably def and HP) via scrolls.

I don't want to make this too long by copy pasting, but:

1. Olwen is around for longer

2. Olwen is not route dependent

3. Early access to long range tomes

4. Has DaimThunder, which makes her godly with Ambush

5. Can get another DaimThunder and then gets Holy Sword (Hero Sword + effective against mounts + Prayer + 10 mag)

"but durability". Scrolls and Wind or Swords or something on the enemy phase can help fix her durability issues. FE5 enemies are pretty weak. She also has the option of using DaimThunder + Ambush which kills anything before they touch her.

Also, Olwen should be getting Ambush. Who else needs it as much as her?

Edited February 22, 2009 by Shanan

[Dat Nick]

so she can fix her stats (most notably def and HP) via scrolls.

Eyrios can't?

4. Has DaimThunder, which makes her godly with Ambush

she's also amazingly dependant on Daimthunder

once that runs out, Eyrios is by far superior

Holy Sword (Hero Sword + effective against mounts + Prayer + 10 mag)

not really as good as it sounds, it's only good for raping mages on a unit who takes care of them fine anywho

Scrolls and Wind or Swords or something on the enemy phase can help fix her durability issues.

Same goes for Eyrios, who rapes stuff just as easily with a wind or elfire book or something if he can't be countered, then he uses canto to gtfo

Also, Olwen should be getting Ambush. Who else needs it as much as her?

nobody NEEDS it

but a select few characters certainly WANT it

[Seph]

Eyrios can't?

Olwen is in a better position to do so. Not only does she come earlier, she is also lower leveled allowing her more opportunities to fix them.

she's also amazingly dependant on Daimthunder

once that runs out, Eyrios is by far superior

I was talking about DaimThunder earlier with someone. Mind if I copy paste it?

1. Prf weapon

It attacks twice in a row with insane might and 10 crit. It somewhat fixes her low fragility by allowing her to kill anything, preventing her from taking a hit. At Chapter 22, she can get Holy Sword, which gives her Prayer and +10 magic, which makes her pretty much almost as invincible as Eyrios. She can get the DaimThunder again in Chapter 22 by having a thief steal it from Lifis.

"but uses". Using DaimThunder all the time is simply put, idiocy. A smart player would know how to conserve the uses. Since it is risky to use on the enemy phase (the option that she can kill everything is still there, she can however use scrolls to boost her stats, thereby making her more durable for a weapon like Wind).

"but she can miss and die with DaimThunder". She CAN hold a Wind or a sword on the enemy phase to boost her durability, AS and avoid - she CAN take hits in this way. Enemies in FE5 are unimpressive. Olwen at her base has 24 HP and 5 def (easily improved by scrolls), while not too impressive, at Chapter 12, brigands only have about 70 hit and 14-19 (mostly 15-16) might - which means 3HKO on Olwen. The enemies, while Olwen is holding a sword, have tiny hit on Olwen (somewhere around 30), making it semi reliable. Olwen has 4 PC, so her CH will get multipled by 4. Pretty nice, right? So Olwen, even without DaimThunder, is kicking some ass in Chapter 12. She can even get Ambush here. On Chapter 13, the enemies are pretty damn weak and the story is the same. The ballistae are positioned far apart, so they aren't a big problem for Olwen - and her mount kicks ass, which gives her sweet, sweet bonuses. This chapter has a lot of rushing anyway, and you shouldn't spend much time kicking enemy ass. Olwen kicks ass in this chapter. This story goes on and on, I'm too lazy to continue it though. The enemies are unpromoted and weak in this game. Olwen can take several hits while holding Wind or something else on the enemy phase -- she is not Captain Fragile. She WILL be killing a lot of things even without DaimThunder. Her CH gets multiplied by 4, which is fucking amazing. You can check the statistics yourself. She can always rely on DaimThunder to nuke whatever she wishes. "but Olwen takes hits with Wind". At least she can rely on DaimThunder to not take hits when necessary. It has a grand total of 60 uses, making it semi-reliable.

not really as good as it sounds, it's only good for raping mages on a unit who takes care of them fine anywho

Holy Sword has 17 might. 20/10 Olwen has 8 strength. This means 25 might. 25 might twice.

Chapter 23: most enemies are mounts, so they will be dying.

Chapter 24 and 24x: Over 9000 dark mages in these chapters. Excellent for the Holy Sword.

Chapter 25: She has an extra Daim Thunder here, but yes, it is not so useful here.

And then she has Prayer which she can hold on to to survive. And she's no longer a target of Berserk, Silence etc.

Same goes for Eyrios, who rapes stuff just as easily with a wind or elfire book or something if he can't be countered, then he uses canto to gtfo

Eyrios has 0 PC by the way. Olwen wins in this department.

nobody NEEDS it

but a select few characters certainly WANT it

No one wants it as MUCH as her. So, Olwen takes it.

[Dat Nick]

"but she can miss and die with DaimThunder". She CAN hold a Wind or a sword on the enemy phase to boost her durability, AS and avoid - she CAN take hits in this way. Enemies in FE5 are unimpressive. Olwen at her base has 24 HP and 5 def (easily improved by scrolls), while not too impressive, at Chapter 12, brigands only have about 70 hit and 14-19 (mostly 15-16) might - which means 3HKO on Olwen. The enemies, while Olwen is holding a sword, have tiny hit on Olwen (somewhere around 30), making it semi reliable. Olwen has 4 PC, so her CH will get multipled by 4. Pretty nice, right? So Olwen, even without DaimThunder, is kicking some ass in Chapter 12. She can even get Ambush here. On Chapter 13, the enemies are pretty damn weak and the story is the same. The ballistae are positioned far apart, so they aren't a big problem for Olwen - and her mount kicks ass, which gives her sweet, sweet bonuses. This chapter has a lot of rushing anyway, and you shouldn't spend much time kicking enemy ass. Olwen kicks ass in this chapter. This story goes on and on, I'm too lazy to continue it though. The enemies are unpromoted and weak in this game. Olwen can take several hits while holding Wind or something else on the enemy phase -- she is not Captain Fragile. She WILL be killing a lot of things even without DaimThunder. Her CH gets multiplied by 4, which is fucking amazing. You can check the statistics yourself. She can always rely on DaimThunder to nuke whatever she wishes. "but Olwen takes hits with Wind". At least she can rely on DaimThunder to not take hits when necessary. It has a grand total of 60 uses, making it semi-reliable.

okay

she's still no better than Eyrios on things he actually one rounds. You said it yourself: FE5 enemies suck. The only use for this overkill is to prevent her from eating counters, and your mage knights really have no excuse to be eating them in the first place considering they can just canto the hell away

besides, you can always just kill Olwen right before the route split. All of her midgame usefulness is still there.

Eyrios has 0 PC by the way. Olwen wins in this department.

how? On things he would need to critical to kill, okay. How often does he actually need a critical to kill? Especially since PCC only helps for the second attack, so you can't use preventing counters as an excuse.

[Seph]

how? On things he would need to critical to kill, okay. How often does he actually need a critical to kill? Especially since PCC only helps for the second attack, so you can't use preventing counters as an excuse.

By the way, with other weapons, he can barely kill anything with other weapons. His magic base is only 9.

Tron reduces AS by 9. Therefore, 5 AS when he comes. Note, he comes at level 8 promoted, so he will be leveling up slower so he'll be stuck with this longer. Which means, his enemy needs 1 AS for him to double.. so pathetic.

Even with Elfire. His AS is not high enough to double some things. Only 7 AS.

On 17A (Eyrios has 27 might here), even the armors have 2-4 AS. He's not doubling shit here, and he's certainly not OHKOing. Say you gave him Elfire to fix his AS. He still has a mere 7 AS, which is not enough to double the armors with 4 AS...

There are a few dark mages here, but almost all the enemies are melee here. So.. yeah.

In 21, he will probably be level 20/11 now. He now has 28 might with Tron. His AS also went up to 6. Very little improvement. He still has trouble doubling things with Tron.

As he now has 10 magic, he gets 21 might from Elfire, meaning 8 AS. Still not enough to double a lot of things like Wyvern Knights, at least he can kill armors now..

4 PC >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0 PC.

besides, you can always just kill Olwen right before the route split. All of her midgame usefulness is still there.

Olwen >>> Eyrios even after route split.

Ignoring Olwen's awesome game before Eyrios....

Holy Sword + DaimThunder + Ambush + 4 PC >>> 0 PC + Prayer (which she can get later) + Sol (unreliable) + slightly better stats

she's still no better than Eyrios on things he actually one rounds. You said it yourself: FE5 enemies suck. The only use for this overkill is to prevent her from eating counters, and your mage knights really have no excuse to be eating them in the first place considering they can just canto the hell away

Eyrios has one rounding issues, see above.

Edited February 22, 2009 by Shanan

[Dat Nick]

Right, I got used to hearing Eyrios has superior bases so I kind of forgot he had lower mag.

Still, enemy stats have really wide deviations, just wanted to point that out

[Seph]

Right, I got used to hearing Eyrios has superior bases so I kind of forgot he had lower mag.

Still, enemy stats have really wide deviations, just wanted to point that out

That is true. However, Olwen's one rounding capabilities are far superior thanks to 4 PC. Eyrios also has doubling issues in certain parts of the game. The only parts I checked were 17 and 21, and after seeing some armors with 4 AS...

[PuffPuff]

...Hero Lance is one of the best weapons here. Repair it would be the wisest decision.

Useful for Chapter 22 especially facing 50/50 leadership to hit and avoid on everybody. But it won't be useful beyond Chapter 23 anyway. Reparing it is your choice.

Oh yes, ditch the Hero Axe/Sword. Use it on Warp and Rescue instead. As for Rewarp, you can get plenty of them.

On Rescue. There are only threew in the entire game, and they are especially needed for Chapter 24X Gaiden. You cannot get much Warp staves until Chapter 21X.

He killed Olwen already for Eyrios.

You still can get a Daim Thunder tome in Chapter 22 by putting Reinherdt to sleep and capturing him. I don't know if Eyrios can use the tome though.

Olwen also comes at a lower level and comes around for longer, so she can fix her stats (most notably def and HP) via scrolls.

I don't want to make this too long by copy pasting, but:

1. Olwen is around for longer

2. Olwen is not route dependent

3. Early access to long range tomes

4. Has DaimThunder, which makes her godly with Ambush

5. Can get another DaimThunder and then gets Holy Sword (Hero Sword + effective against mounts + Prayer + 10 mag)

"but durability". Scrolls and Wind or Swords or something on the enemy phase can help fix her durability issues. FE5 enemies are pretty weak. She also has the option of using DaimThunder + Ambush which kills anything before they touch her.

Also, Olwen should be getting Ambush. Who else needs it as much as her?

I never knew what Ambush would be useful on. I'll remember to use it on Olwen/Eyrios from now on.

1. Prf weapon

It attacks twice in a row with insane might and 10 crit. It somewhat fixes her low fragility by allowing her to kill anything, preventing her from taking a hit. At Chapter 22, she can get Holy Sword, which gives her Prayer and +10 magic, which makes her pretty much almost as invincible as Eyrios. She can get the DaimThunder again in Chapter 22 by having a thief steal it from Lifis.

"but uses". Using DaimThunder all the time is simply put, idiocy. A smart player would know how to conserve the uses. Since it is risky to use on the enemy phase (the option that she can kill everything is still there, she can however use scrolls to boost her stats, thereby making her more durable for a weapon like Wind).

"but she can miss and die with DaimThunder". She CAN hold a Wind or a sword on the enemy phase to boost her durability, AS and avoid - she CAN take hits in this way. Enemies in FE5 are unimpressive. Olwen at her base has 24 HP and 5 def (easily improved by scrolls), while not too impressive, at Chapter 12, brigands only have about 70 hit and 14-19 (mostly 15-16) might - which means 3HKO on Olwen. The enemies, while Olwen is holding a sword, have tiny hit on Olwen (somewhere around 30), making it semi reliable. Olwen has 4 PC, so her CH will get multipled by 4. Pretty nice, right? So Olwen, even without DaimThunder, is kicking some ass in Chapter 12. She can even get Ambush here. On Chapter 13, the enemies are pretty damn weak and the story is the same. The ballistae are positioned far apart, so they aren't a big problem for Olwen - and her mount kicks ass, which gives her sweet, sweet bonuses. This chapter has a lot of rushing anyway, and you shouldn't spend much time kicking enemy ass. Olwen kicks ass in this chapter. This story goes on and on, I'm too lazy to continue it though. The enemies are unpromoted and weak in this game. Olwen can take several hits while holding Wind or something else on the enemy phase -- she is not Captain Fragile. She WILL be killing a lot of things even without DaimThunder. Her CH gets multiplied by 4, which is fucking amazing. You can check the statistics yourself. She can always rely on DaimThunder to nuke whatever she wishes. "but Olwen takes hits with Wind". At least she can rely on DaimThunder to not take hits when necessary. It has a grand total of 60 uses, making it semi-reliable.

Holy Sword has 17 might. 20/10 Olwen has 8 strength. This means 25 might. 25 might twice.

Only except Olwen will receive very little EXP in that Chapter which this easy EXP should be fed to your weaker units.

[Fia]

You still can get a Daim Thunder tome in Chapter 22 by putting Reinherdt to sleep and capturing him. I don't know if Eyrios can use the tome though.

No one can use Daim Thunder aside from Olwen.

[Kriemhild]

No one can use Daim Thunder aside from Olwen.

Rinehart can. But among the playable characters, yeah, Olwen is the only one.

Neither Olwen nor Eyrios is gonna OHKO enemies so easily with Wind. But Olwen more likely to kill them off in two hits thanks to her 4 PCC. And if the enemy is still powerful enough to get a decent Hit, then Olwen's DaimThunder can kill them before they counterattack. So for normal enemies, Olwen+Wind > Eyrios+Wind. For stronger enemies which are strong enough to be worth using one of your 120 DaimThunders on, Olwen+DaimThunder >>> Eyrios+anything.

So how exactly is Eyrios better again?

[grandjackal]

Rinehart can. But among the playable characters, yeah, Olwen is the only one.

Neither Olwen nor Eyrios is gonna OHKO enemies so easily with Wind. But Olwen more likely to kill them off in two hits thanks to her 4 PCC. And if the enemy is still powerful enough to get a decent Hit, then Olwen's DaimThunder can kill them before they counterattack. So for normal enemies, Olwen+Wind > Eyrios+Wind. For stronger enemies which are strong enough to be worth using one of your 120 DaimThunders on, Olwen+DaimThunder >>> Eyrios+anything.

So how exactly is Eyrios better again?

Having actual durability so he can put his great mobility to good use, probably the only mage knight who can really use a physical weapon as back-up thus having an answer to high resistance enemies and giving him an actual reason to go indoors (though I doubt anyone would put any mounted guy indoors), Solar Shot, is good right out the box without having to rely on a heavy as fuck weapon to pick him out of a hole, awesome starting equipment, oh I dunno...

[Mekkah]

I don't know if you're aware of it, but Mage Knights can also use magic indoors, which is probably the only reason I'd ever use them there (if they were locked to swords I wouldn't think about it - if I wanted a low Str indoor unit I have Karin to turn to).

[grandjackal]

I don't know if you're aware of it, but Mage Knights can also use magic indoors, which is probably the only reason I'd ever use them there (if they were locked to swords I wouldn't think about it - if I wanted a low Str indoor unit I have Karin to turn to).

...I need to use mage knights more often.

[Kriemhild]

Having actual durability so he can put his great mobility to good use,

Not that much. And if you give Olwen Ambush, she'll kill off enemies before they get the chance to counterattack.

probably the only mage knight who can really use a physical weapon as back-up thus having an answer to high resistance enemies and giving him an actual reason to go indoors (though I doubt anyone would put any mounted guy indoors),

Mage Knights can still use magic indoors. As for high-resistance enemies, you don't find armies of dark mages until Ch 24 by which time Olwen already has the Holy Sword which is better than every weapon that Eyrios can use. The mages in Ch 20 have puny resistance. And dark mages are scarce in the chapters between 16A and 22 so Eyrios doesn't have that physical weapon advantage.

Solar Shot, is good right out the box without having to rely on a heavy weapon to pick him out of a hole, awesome starting equipment, oh I dunno...

Solar Shot isn't that good. To rely on that skill to save your life is very risky in a tight situation. His awesome starting equipment can be stolen. His Thoron, Solar Manual, everything except his Master Sword.

[Fia]

His Thoron, Solar Manual, everything except his Master Sword.

Thief Staff.

[Kriemhild]

Thief Staff.

Right. So his Master Sword is also stealable. So you can't consider his awesome starting equipment as an advantage over Olwen.

[grandjackal]

Yes I damn well can because recruiting him means I get it all for free without having to waste thief staff uses.

I can also give ambush to Eryios to give him a chance to activate Solar Shot to make him hard to kill without having to rely on a heavy-ass weapon that isn't even garunteed to hit.

Not by much? You fucking kidding me? He starts with nearly twice her base HP and MORE than double her defense! How the hell is this not by much? Olwen doesn't grow into a tank either. They have the same growths, but his bases just flat out destroy her. Her stats will in no way be better or even close to his bases in durability. She has speed and magic on him, but it's not like his offense is terribad, especially since he can use physical weapons on mages instead of attacking their stronger resistance. Eryios able to not rely on a weapon until still being crushed by any physical attacker > Olwen's offense with the risky Dime Thunder.

Solar Shot sucks? It's better than needing to be given Ambush of which Mareeta and Shiva could probably use it better, as Dime Thunder doesn't have perfect accuracy. If she misses, she easily gets her ass kicked, ambush or not. Eryios shouldn't rely on Solar Shot, but at least he doesn't HAVE to rely on it. Unlike Olwen with ambush AND dime thunder...

Olwen is a glorified arch knight at best.