Me (Eir Marisa) vs CamTech (Ross)

[Defeatist Elitist]

I open. Coming soon.

[CT075]

Hurry up. PLEEEEEAAASE!

[Defeatist Elitist]

So, what do we have here? A beautiful but deadly swordswoman versus some kid who's dad hit things with an axe really slowly. I don't think this should be too hard.

Also, I'm doing Eir Marisa, because she's probably worse than Eph Marisa, to make this more fair. :D

Now, first of all, let's see how Ross is going to be looking when he joins up in Chapter 2.

1/0/0 Ross:

Hatchet: 9.0 atk, 3.0 AS, 92.8 hit, 0.8 crit - - 14.0 avo, 15.0 hp, 3.0 def, 0.0 res, 8.0 critavo

That is HORRIBLE. I don't know how much I can stress that. Bad, bad, BAD. It is physically IMPOSSIBLE for him to double ANYTHING. ANYTHING IN THE WHOLE GAME. On top of that, he might actually have a fair chance to miss against some enemies, or even be doubled. And this is NORMAL mode. His durability is just pitiful. He's got pretty much nothing. Now, just to compare, here is a generic enemy bandit from this chapter:

13.0 atk, 5.0 AS, 76.8 hit, 0.3 crit - - 10.0 avo, 20.0 hp, 3.0 def, 0.0 res, 0.0 critavo

It's beating Ross in pretty much everything except Hit, Avoid and Critavoid. It deals 10 Damage to him at 71.5% True Hit. He will die in 2 hits. Hell, if it hits him and anything else hits him he dies, same with if he was just hit by something else. In return, he deal 6 Damage to it, although is pretty damn likely to hit. He takes 4 turns to kill it. These are not good odds for Ross. Now, let's compare him with the rest of the team! Obviously Seth will destroy him here, but so will everyone else!

And I won't even give anyone else a SINGLE level, even though many of them should have at LEAST 1:

1/0 Franz:

Iron Sword: 12.0 atk, 7.0 AS, 100.8 hit, 2.3 crit - - 16.0 avo, 20.0 hp, 6.0 def, 1.0 res, 2.0 critavo

So, Franz is dealing 10 Damage per hit to this guy, at 100% hit, killing him in two hits. In return, the Bandit deals 6 Damage, which takes 4 turns to kill Franz. And the Bandit is less likely to hit Franz than Ross. Franz wins.

1/0 Eirika:

Rapier: 11.0 atk, 9.0 AS, 113.3 hit, 13.8 crit - - 23.0 avo, 16.0 hp, 3.0 def, 1.0 res, 5.0 critavo

So, Eirika Double Hits, dealing 9 damage per hit. 2 attacks and that Bandit is dead. She can't miss. She might even Crit. If she did level up, and had one more point of strength (which is pretty damn likely) she would One Round. Now, on Defense, she takes 9 Damage at 29% True Hit. She's 2 hit killed, but she's horribly unlikely to be hit.

I could go on to Gilliam, but I figure that's pointless. I think we can all say, Ross sucks right now. Now, obviously, you're going to say he gets better. Oh boy. How much better? How quickly?

Its true that pretty much every kill will give him a level up (I'll say it takes him 10 kills to get level 10), but its HARD for him to get those 10 kills without you lining them up. This level doesn't look great for him, since he probably starts behind your guys when Vanessa drops him, and your other d00ds have probably cleared most of the enemies. Chapter 3 might get him a kill from lurking behind those walls and Hatcheting stuff. Chapter 4 is his best bet, since its full of lolbies, but EVERYONE is having fun slaughtering them here. Chapter 5 might be hard for him, what with a fair few enemies coming from a couple directions, and the whole recruiting Josh on one side thing. Chapter 6 is a nightmare for someone with low durability like him, because you never know when someone will shoot out of the Fog of War and destroy him. Chapter 7 is alright for him I guess, although Ballistae are troublesome...

I'm going to be nice and say that he gets to 10 in mid Chapter 8, which is giving him almost 2 kills per chapter. So he promotes at the start of Chapter 9. I'll be incredibly nice and pretend that Colm doesn't care about the Ocean Seal, so Ross can even be a Pirate! Marisa joins Chapter 10. I'll give Ross a couple levels through these chapters, and we'll say he's level 10/2/0 when we get Marisa. He also isn't likely to have much Support Wise right now, except perhaps something shaky with his dad. But Garcia isn't even necessarily gonna be around. Now, lets compare the two:

10/2/0 Pirate Ross:

Iron Axe: 20.0 atk, 7.0 AS, 91.8 hit, 2.5 crit - - 26.0 avo, 24.0 hp, 6.5 def, 2.0 res, 12.0 critavo

Hatchet (assuming he still HAS it): 16.0 atk, 7.0 AS, 101.8 hit, 2.5 crit - - 26.0 avo, 24.0 hp, 6.5 def, 2.0 res, 12.0 critavo

And now let's see Marisa:

5/0 Marisa:

Shamshir: 15.0 atk, 13.0 AS, 103.3 hit, 40.8 crit - - 35.0 avo, 23.0 hp, 4.0 def, 3.0 res, 9.0 critavo

So, basically, Ross can hit harder with a single attack, but he's much more likely to miss, and much less likely to Double attack. He won't Crit. Marisa will almost always hit, will ALWAYS double in every situation barring one or two incredibly rare circumstances. She also has a decent Crit chance. She wins Offense.

On Durability, Ross has 2 more Defense, and 1 more HP, but Marisa has 9 more Avoid (and one more Res :)). Ross could get something here.

After this, the two should gain levels at roughly an equal rate. Support wise, Ross is pretty much screwed as I said before, barring the small chance of Garcia being fielded, but Marisa has some options. She can probably get something with either Tethys, Gerik, Tana, or a combination of the 3.

So onwards to Mid game, around Chapter 16!

Since this is Normal Mode, they'll probably be near Promotion now, if not at it. For the sake of Simplicity, I'll compare them at 17/0-19/0, and 20/1-20/3.

17/0 Ross:

Iron Axe: 26.7 atk, 11.5 AS, 105.2 hit, 5.1 crit - - 41.0 avo, 34.5 hp, 10.2 def, 5.0 res, 18.0 critavo

Hand Axe: 25.7 atk, 9.5 AS, 90.2 hit, 5.1 crit - - 37.0 avo, 34.5 hp, 10.2 def, 5.0 res, 18.0 critavo

19/0 Marisa B Gerik, B Tethys:

Iron Sword: 17.2 atk, 19.8 AS, 150.9 hit, 19.3 crit - - 75.6 avo, 33.5 hp, 9.1 def, 9.5 res, 31.0 critavo

Ross again deals more damage with a single hit, but Marisa has a massive AS lead. It's ridiculous. She would have to wield a Steel Blade in order to have him win AS with his Iron Axe. She also will basically never miss, whereas he has a fair chance of doing so. She also trumps him in Crit. So for Offense, never missing + always doubling + Crit + trading some of those things for other things if she needs to >>>> missing lots + never doubling + high base damage.

On Durability, things are tight. She wins Avoid by 34 at the best of times for Ross. She loses HP and Defense by 1 each, but wins Res by 4. I think Marisa wins Durability!

Now, to compare them Promoted:

20/3 Marisa, A Gerik, B Tethys:

Iron Sword: 20.1 atk, 21.1 AS, 158.5 hit, 37.5 crit - - 84.7 avo, 39.8 hp, 12.5 def, 12.2 res, 37.5 critavo

Steel Sword: 23.1 atk, 18.1 AS, 143.5 hit, 37.5 crit - - 78.7 avo, 39.8 hp, 12.5 def, 12.2 res, 37.5 critavo

Silver Sword: 28.1 atk, 20.1 AS, 148.5 hit, 37.5 crit - - 82.7 avo, 39.8 hp, 12.5 def, 12.2 res, 37.5 critavo

Killing Edge: 24.1 atk, 21.1 AS, 143.5 hit, 67.5 crit - - 84.7 avo, 39.8 hp, 12.5 def, 12.2 res, 37.5 critavo

20/1 Ross:

Iron Axe: 28.4 atk, 13.4 AS, 109.9 hit, 21.2 crit - - 46.0 avo, 40.6 hp, 13.0 def, 7.6 res, 19.2 critavo

Steel Axe: 31.4 atk, 11.4 AS, 99.9 hit, 21.2 crit - - 42.0 avo, 40.6 hp, 13.0 def, 7.6 res, 19.2 critavo

Silver Axe: 35.4 atk, 13.4 AS, 104.9 hit, 21.2 crit - - 46.0 avo, 40.6 hp, 13.0 def, 7.6 res, 19.2 critavo

Killer Axe: 31.4 atk, 13.4 AS, 99.9 hit, 51.1 crit - - 46.0 avo, 40.6 hp, 13.0 def, 7.6 res, 19.2 critavo

Now, again, let us compare:

As always, Marisa wins horribly in AS, Ross takes raw damage. She also dominates in Hit and Crit. She wins Offense.

Durability, she wins Avoid by 38, and loses HP and Defense by 1 each, again. She wins Res by 5. She wins this.

And it continues to go her way from here out.

So basically, before Marisa joins, Marisa > Ross, when she joins, Marisa > Ross, later, Marisa > Ross.

Your turn.

[CT075]

1/0/0 Ross:

Hatchet: 9.0 atk, 3.0 AS, 92.8 hit, 0.8 crit - - 14.0 avo, 15.0 hp, 3.0 def, 0.0 res, 8.0 critavo

That is HORRIBLE. I don't know how much I can stress that. Bad, bad, BAD. It is physically IMPOSSIBLE for him to double ANYTHING. ANYTHING IN THE WHOLE GAME. On top of that, he might actually have a fair chance to miss against some enemies, or even be doubled. And this is NORMAL mode. His durability is just pitiful. He's got pretty much nothing. Now, just to compare, here is a generic enemy bandit from this chapter:

Conceded.

10/2/0 Pirate Ross:

Iron Axe: 20.0 atk, 7.0 AS, 91.8 hit, 2.5 crit - - 26.0 avo, 24.0 hp, 6.5 def, 2.0 res, 12.0 critavo

Hatchet (assuming he still HAS it): 16.0 atk, 7.0 AS, 101.8 hit, 2.5 crit - - 26.0 avo, 24.0 hp, 6.5 def, 2.0 res, 12.0 critavo

And now let's see Marisa:

5/0 Marisa:

Shamshir: 15.0 atk, 13.0 AS, 103.3 hit, 40.8 crit - - 35.0 avo, 23.0 hp, 4.0 def, 3.0 res, 9.0 critavo

So, basically, Ross can hit harder with a single attack, but he's much more likely to miss, and much less likely to Double attack. He won't Crit. Marisa will almost always hit, will ALWAYS double in every situation barring one or two incredibly rare circumstances. She also has a decent Crit chance. She wins Offense.

This is assuming that you even have Marisa. Since this is Eirika's route, there is a just as likely chance of her just running off to the other side so she can attack your units heading towards Pablo. Besides, her offensive lead doesn't mean much at this point because she has a 3 level lead on him. AND, he can waterwalk. You're also assuming that he's a Pirate, too. Let's compare his other possible stats:

Ross

Lv. 2 Fighter

HP: 24

STR: 12

SKL: 6.5

SPD: 6

LCK: 12

DEF: 5.5

RES: 3

1/1-2 range

Marisa

Lv. 5 Myrmidon

HP: 23

STR: 7

SKL: 12

SPD: 13

LCK: 9

DEF: 4

RES: 3

1 range

Now, using the same weapons you said before, Ross has 20 Atk and 6 AS with an Iron Axe, 17 w/ Hatchet, + his 1-2 range. Oh, and that brings up another point. Besides the WindSword and/or RuneBlade, Ross has 1-2 range that Marisa doesn't. Ross also has 12 critavo, as opposed to Marisa's 9. He's also leading in defense now, too, since the fact that they have about equal RES means that Ross' higher DEF beats Marisa's... nothing. Therefore, Ross is winning in defense. And all this he trades for the ability to waterwalk and 1 AS. It's conceded that Ross won't double as much as Marisa, though.

On Durability, things are tight. She wins Avoid by 34 at the best of times for Ross. She loses HP and Defense by 1 each, but wins Res by 4. I think Marisa wins Durability!

Actually, dodge doesn't have anything to do with durability. Dodge involves whether or not the unit can sit in a spot for a while. Anyway, you're assuming that Ross doesn't have any supports, which is wrong, probably.

Ross (A Garcia/B Ewan)

Lv. 10/20/1 Hero

HP: 40.6

STR: 21

SKL: 14.8

SPD: 13.4

LCK: 19.2

DEF: 12

RES: 8.6

Iron Axe: 36 Atk, 13.4 AS, 61 avo, 19.2 critavo, 140.2 hit, 32.4 crit

Killer Axe: 39 Atk, 13.4 AS, 61 avo, 19.2 critavo, 130.2 hit, 62.4 crit

Iron Sword: 33 Atk, 13.4 AS, 61 avo, 19.2 critavo, 165.2, 32.4 crit

Marisa (A Gerik/B Tethys)

Lv. 20/3 Swordmaster

HP: 39.75

STR: 14.1

SKL: 22.1

SPD: 21.2

LCK: 17.5

DEF: 8.55

RES: 8.25

Iron Sword: 20.1 atk, 21.1 AS, 158.5 hit, 37.5 crit, 84.7 avo, 37.5 critavo

Killing Edge: 24.1 atk, 21.1 AS, 143.5 hit, 67.5 crit, 84.7 avo, 37.5 critavo

Steel Sword: 23.1 atk, 18.1 AS, 143.5 hit, 37.5 crit, 78.7 avo, 37.5 critavo

Now, since Marisa's defensive stats are lower than Ross', and her avoid is better than his, I say that Ross wins defense. Marisa has a higher avoid, yes. But if the enemy should hit, Marisa will take more damage than Ross will if he gets hit. And, even if Marisa has higher AS, SS enemies stink, so neither of them should have too much trouble doubling. Therefore, Ross wins offense, too. And, he can use swords to make up for his ~not so great accuracy, making the accuracy point moot.

Defense+Offense leads= Ross wins.

((My internet is acting up, so I might take a while to post.))

EDIT: Fixed some stuff.

Edited February 22, 2009 by Camtech075

[Defeatist Elitist]

Lolno.

This is assuming that you even have Marisa. Since this is Eirika's route, there is a just as likely chance of her just running off to the other side so she can attack your units heading towards Pablo. Besides, her offensive lead doesn't mean much at this point because she has a 3 level lead on him. AND, he can waterwalk. You're also assuming that he's a Pirate, too. Let's compare his other possible stats:

True, she might head off the other way. That's not incredibly likely, and not hard to solve. I don't see its relevance. And yes, her offensive lead means a lot, regardless of level lead. That's like saying Seth isn't actually stronger than Eirika in the Prologue, just because he's a higher level. Its simply untrue. I concede that Ross can waterwalk. Oh boy, you really got me there!

Now, this whole, making him a Fighter thing is something I'm not quite understanding...

You're trading 1 Speed, and 1 Def (and Waterwalk :P), for 1 Skill, 1 Res, and 1 Con? Firstly, speed is superior to Con in every case. Secondly, Skill and Res aren't that great when compared with Speed and Defense. Going Pirate is a much superior path. Also, going Pirate allows you to get Berserker, which is WAY better than Hero.

Let's compare the Promotion gains of Pirate-Berserker, and Fighter-Hero:

Berserker/Pirate: 6 HP, 3 Pow, 1 Skill, 2 Speed, 3 Def, 2 Res, 5 Con

Hero/Fighter: 6 HP, 3 Pow, 3 Skill, 2 Speed, 2 Def, 3 Res, 3 Con

So, it looks like Berserker/Pirate is definitely winning here. 2 Con and 1 Def >> 2 Skill and 1 Res

Plus, waterwalk/mountain walk, and Crit Boost > Swords.

But I don't even know why I'm arguing your side.

Now, using the same weapons you said before, Ross has 20 Atk and 6 AS with an Iron Axe, 17 w/ Hatchet, + his 1-2 range. Oh, and that brings up another point. Besides the WindSword and/or RuneBlade, Ross has 1-2 range that Marisa doesn't. Ross also has 12 critavo, as opposed to Marisa's 9. He's also leading in defense now, too, since the fact that they have about equal RES means that Ross' higher DEF beats Marisa's... nothing. Therefore, Ross is winning in defense.

You're forgetting her Avoid. As for Offense, you basically just took MORE of his AS away, in exchange for... Absolutely nothing on Offense. Marisa still wins it, probably by MORE. I mean, her Crit alone should give her the win here, but even without that, she will double everything under the sun, while he'll double pretty much nothing. I think I explained this the last time.

On Durability, it's an even more solid tie now because, as I said before, 1 Res doesn't really matter. So, basically, they tie Res. He wins Def and HP by 1 each. She wins Avoid by 11 or so.

Actually, dodge doesn't have anything to do with durability. Dodge involves whether or not the unit can sit in a spot for a while.

Whaaaaaat? Avoid is a huge part of durability. Want me to explain? In that situation where Marisa had 34 more Avoid than Ross, let's take a look at how it'll turn out assuming an enemy with an Iron Axe who has 90 Hit, and 20 Attack.

That enemy can't hit Marisa. She can't die.

It has 48% True Hit on Ross.

That means that Marisa can take infinite hits from that enemy. Ross on the other hand, can't.

Avoid matters a great deal.

Anyway, you're assuming that Ross doesn't have any supports, which is wrong, probably.

Ross (A Garcia/B Ewan)

No. NO. NONONONONO! First of all, Garcia is a mediocre at best character. He's not incredibly likely to be played. So that support is pretty damn shaky. Second of all, even in Normal Mode, Ewan is horrible. The chances of him being used are still tiny. He'll die to almost everything when he joins. Ewan support is ridiculously unlikely. So yeah, it looks like Ross goes Supportless.

Which means we're back to my old comparisons. If you want to make him a Hero in those, just make him a bit shittier all around, and that'll basically be it. But even in the one you posted, Marisa still wins. Her AS and massive Crit are more than enough to make up for the gap in Power. Durability wise, they actually have EQUAL Defense (you forgot her Supports), and she has better Avoid, Res, and Critavoid. All for 1 HP that Ross has. Marisa wins that too.

Congratulations, you managed to make your character WORSE.

You go.

[CT075]

Well, for one thing, if you read my posts at all, I'm new at this.

But I don't even know why I'm arguing your side.

Nice.

Whaaaaaat? Avoid is a huge part of durability. Want me to explain? In that situation where Marisa had 34 more Avoid than Ross, let's take a look at how it'll turn out assuming an enemy with an Iron Axe who has 90 Hit, and 20 Attack.

No. Avoid helps SURVIVABILITY. Durability is how long an opponent can hit your character before he/she dies, not how many times they can get attacked.

Anyway, I concede. There's not really any way I can win this, since all I have right now is the waterwalk thing. Whatever counter I use is probably going to be mediocre, anyway.

So Marisa has been- *shot*

[Vykan12]

Since this debate is already over, I’ll just name some things I spotted on both ends.

ZXValaRevan

Its true that pretty much every kill will give him a level up (I'll say it takes him 10 kills to get level 10), but its HARD for him to get those 10 kills without you lining them up… I'm going to be nice and say that he gets to 10 in mid Chapter 8, which is giving him almost 2 kills per chapter.

Don’t forget that Ross also gets something like 30-40 exp per atk, so he’ll be maxing out his trainee level before that in all likelihood.

10/2/0 Pirate Ross:

Iron Axe: 20.0 atk, 7.0 AS, 91.8 hit, 2.5 crit - - 26.0 avo, 24.0 hp, 6.5 def, 2.0 res, 12.0 critavo

Hatchet (assuming he still HAS it): 16.0 atk, 7.0 AS, 101.8 hit, 2.5 crit - - 26.0 avo, 24.0 hp, 6.5 def, 2.0 res, 12.0 critavo

And now let's see Marisa:

5/0 Marisa:

Shamshir: 15.0 atk, 13.0 AS, 103.3 hit, 40.8 crit - - 35.0 avo, 23.0 hp, 4.0 def, 3.0 res, 9.0 critavo

You shouldn’t be comparing iron axe Ross to Shamshir Marisa. The former has an inexpensive, buyable weapon, the latter is holding just about the opposite; an expensive, finite weapon that many other people want. Even though Marisa starts with the weapon, she can easily trade it away even during that chapter.

On Durability, Ross has 2 more Defense, and 1 more HP, but Marisa has 9 more Avoid (and one more Res ). Ross could get something here.

Avoid is better than both of those tiny concrete durability leads because of the 2RN system.

After this, the two should gain levels at roughly an equal rate.

Not really. If Marisa is that much better on offence, she’ll be accumulating kills and thus exp much faster than Ross. The 4 level disparity between them isn’t enough to offset that.

She can probably get something with either Tethys, Gerik, Tana, or a combination of the 3.

Not sure why you didn’t mention Joshua or Colm. Marisa has one of the best support lists in the game, so it’s odd why you wouldn’t want to emphasize how each of her options are legitimately possible.

17/0-20/1 comparisons

Something you neglected is that if Ross isn’t doubling, he might as well up his damage with a steel axe. There is a good chance that ross does about the same damage in 1 hit as Marisa does in 2 if he goes steel.

On Durability, things are tight. She wins Avoid by 34 at the best of times for Ross. She loses HP and Defense by 1 each, but wins Res by 4. I think Marisa wins Durability!

This is a joke, right? Ross’ hp and def leads don’t even allow him to take an extra hit. However, 34 avo is a ridiculous lead. If Ross faces 50% real hit, Marisa faces 5% real. Yes, her odds of getting hit are 10x less likely than Ross in those situations. Even if Ross faces 80% real, she’s facing 25% real, so she’s still 3x less likely to be hit. This was probably the biggest opportunity you missed in your opener, though you did mention it in a counter somewhere.

Last thing, you omitted mentioning stuff like Ross’ garm use, or how buyable special weapons decrease the gap between their offensive performance lategame, though I can understand why you’d omit that.

Camtech075

Besides the WindSword and/or RuneBlade, Ross has 1-2 range that Marisa doesn't. Ross also has 12 critavo, as opposed to Marisa's 9.

You don’t elaborate on the significance of either. Particularly, the 1-2 range is a major point, as Marisa’s doing 0 damage vs javelins/hand axes/anything mage that Ross is countering, so he auto-wins there, and having 1-2 range detracts enemies from attacking you on enemy phase, which is a durability win for Ross. As for the critavo, you need to show which enemies actually have a critical rate on Marisa and contrast it to Ross.

Actually, dodge doesn't have anything to do with durability. Dodge involves whether or not the unit can sit in a spot for a while.

This made me laugh pretty hard. ZxValaRevan addressed it in any case.

you're assuming that Ross doesn't have any supports, which is wrong, probably.

Ross (A Garcia/B Ewan)

This isn’t how you go about showing Ross has supports. You have to go over every option (Garcia, Amelia, Lute, Ewan, Gerik), disregard the low tier characters since they aren’t likely to be played in accordance with Ross (leaves you with Lute and Gerik), then argue why those 2 characters have a free slot for Ross by showing that their alternative options suck.

I’d go about it something like this: Gerik has Innes, Tethys, Marisa, Saleh, Joshua and Ross. (give quick reasons disregarding Innes and Marisa). The tethys support is impractical because it is difficult to get a dancer who is going about everywhere reviving units to somehow end her turn besides Gerik, so that’s unlikely. That leaves Saleh, who is route dependant, and Joshua, who isn’t exactly top tier so there’s a somewhat decent chance of him not being played, which means Gerik taking a Ross support is far from implausible.

You could also cover support bonuses. For instance, Gerik would rather take Ross than Joshua since he wants avoid more than critical evade, which can also be said of the Saleh support.

And, even if Marisa has higher AS, SS enemies stink, so neither of them should have too much trouble doubling.

That point can be used against you. Once you pull the “Ross can double because SS enemies stink” card, then suddenly Marisa’s below average atk isn’t a big deal since she’s still one rounding enemies. In general I’d avoid claims about the game’s difficulty alone as much as possible when defending a point, as it’s much more effective just to use an enemy sample to prove your point.

And, he can use swords to make up for his ~not so great accuracy, making the accuracy point moot.

And in the process, Ross loses atk and 1-2 range, which doesn’t help your case. You should argue that him having 2 weapons offsets Marisa’s avoid advantage since he can manipulate weapon triangle advantage in his favor more often.

No. Avoid helps SURVIVABILITY. Durability is how long an opponent can hit your character before he/she dies, not how many times they can get attacked.

Survivability and durability are essentially the same thing in terms of FE debating terminology. What you are describing is raw defence, or hit sustainability, which is merely one aspect of durability.

Actually, your definition of survivability is a bit off too. Avoid has nothing to do with how many times you can get attacked, it has to do with reducing the probability of getting hit, and in some cases, dying. A unit with good survivability is one who can stay on the frontlines with little risk of dying and/or very little need to heal frequently.

[CT075]

Since this debate is already over, I’ll just name some things I spotted on both ends.

Camtech075

You don’t elaborate on the significance of either. Particularly, the 1-2 range is a major point, as Marisa’s doing 0 damage vs javelins/hand axes/anything mage that Ross is countering, so he auto-wins there, and having 1-2 range detracts enemies from attacking you on enemy phase, which is a durability win for Ross. As for the critavo, you need to show which enemies actually have a critical rate on Marisa and contrast it to Ross.

This made me laugh pretty hard. ZxValaRevan addressed it in any case.

This isn’t how you go about showing Ross has supports. You have to go over every option (Garcia, Amelia, Lute, Ewan, Gerik), disregard the low tier characters since they aren’t likely to be played in accordance with Ross (leaves you with Lute and Gerik), then argue why those 2 characters have a free slot for Ross by showing that their alternative options suck.

I’d go about it something like this: Gerik has Innes, Tethys, Marisa, Saleh, Joshua and Ross. (give quick reasons disregarding Innes and Marisa). The tethys support is impractical because it is difficult to get a dancer who is going about everywhere reviving units to somehow end her turn besides Gerik, so that’s unlikely. That leaves Saleh, who is route dependant, and Joshua, who isn’t exactly top tier so there’s a somewhat decent chance of him not being played, which means Gerik taking a Ross support is far from implausible.

You could also cover support bonuses. For instance, Gerik would rather take Ross than Joshua since he wants avoid more than critical evade, which can also be said of the Saleh support.

That point can be used against you. Once you pull the “Ross can double because SS enemies stink” card, then suddenly Marisa’s below average atk isn’t a big deal since she’s still one rounding enemies. In general I’d avoid claims about the game’s difficulty alone as much as possible when defending a point, as it’s much more effective just to use an enemy sample to prove your point.

And in the process, Ross loses atk and 1-2 range, which doesn’t help your case. You should argue that him having 2 weapons offsets Marisa’s avoid advantage since he can manipulate weapon triangle advantage in his favor more often.

Survivability and durability are essentially the same thing in terms of FE debating terminology. What you are describing is raw defence, or hit sustainability, which is merely one aspect of durability.

Actually, your definition of survivability is a bit off too. Avoid has nothing to do with how many times you can get attacked, it has to do with reducing the probability of getting hit, and in some cases, dying. A unit with good survivability is one who can stay on the frontlines with little risk of dying and/or very little need to heal frequently.

K thanks for clearing some of that up for me, Vykan.

This made me laugh pretty hard. ZxValaRevan addressed it in any case.

I guess I kinda contradicted myself there, didn't I.

Edited February 23, 2009 by Camtech075

[CT075]

*Didn't feel like editing my post to include this*

Considering that I got my ass kicked, does this really say that Marisa>Ross?

[Vykan12]

Considering that I got my ass kicked, does this really say that Marisa>Ross?

Of course not. That could only hold true if both debaters were of exactly equal ability, and both considered just about every existing facet of the game affecting the characters in question. Though yes, as far as I know, Marisa is higher on the tier list than Ross.

Edited February 23, 2009 by Vykan12

[Defeatist Elitist]

1)Avoid is better than both of those tiny concrete durability leads because of the 2RN system.

2)Not really. If Marisa is that much better on offence, she’ll be accumulating kills and thus exp much faster than Ross. The 4 level disparity between them isn’t enough to offset that.

3)Not sure why you didn’t mention Joshua or Colm. Marisa has one of the best support lists in the game, so it’s odd why you wouldn’t want to emphasize how each of her options are legitimately possible.

4)Something you neglected is that if Ross isn’t doubling, he might as well up his damage with a steel axe. There is a good chance that ross does about the same damage in 1 hit as Marisa does in 2 if he goes steel.

5)This is a joke, right? Ross’ hp and def leads don’t even allow him to take an extra hit. However, 34 avo is a ridiculous lead. If Ross faces 50% real hit, Marisa faces 5% real. Yes, her odds of getting hit are 10x less likely than Ross in those situations. Even if Ross faces 80% real, she’s facing 25% real, so she’s still 3x less likely to be hit. This was probably the biggest opportunity you missed in your opener, though you did mention it in a counter somewhere.

6)Last thing, you omitted mentioning stuff like Ross’ garm use, or how buyable special weapons decrease the gap between their offensive performance lategame, though I can understand why you’d omit that.

1) Yeah, I could probably have capitalized on that more.

2) Totally missed that. :(

3) Again, I missed that, although I was going to bring that up if he questioned my Supports. I suppose it would have been better to present it upfront though...

4) As for this, and a couple other things you mentioned, I'm not quite sure here. Mentioning that would obviously have helped Ross's side of things. Should I have said so anyway?

5) Not a joke, but I meant "this is tight" like "this is good", although I can see how the meanings can be confused. But yeah, as I showed later, that amount of Avoid difference can make her impossible to hit, while he's facing almost 50% hit chances.

6) Again, like 4. :D