Wi-fi thread

[dondon151]

Once again, a comparison on unequal grounds.

[Sylvan]

sorry, I didn't see your post, i was responding to the above comment.

Anyway,

This is such a laughable claim. You're assuming that every player who RNG abuses is strategically incompetent - your defense for no RNG abuse is that you've beaten RNG abused teams easily, yet you choose not to consider that large disparities in player skill was the factor. What if you fought an equally skilled opponent who had an RNG abused team with full supports? I can assure that he will win every time, without doubt. RNG abuse beats no RNG abuse on the same level of play.

No, i'm not calming that every RNG abuser that I fight is strategically incompetent. I haven't mentioned strategy at all. All I simply stated, was that with my team, which I listed, I have won. And in doing so, this includes numerous matches against hackers who have all maxed stats and fully forged impossible weapons.

If I was to fight an RNG abused team that was identical to mine, who had superior stats, then it would be a different matter. But the simple matter is, that over the course of 700+ battles, I have yet to encounter any such team, so I don't see how WiFi is supposedly dominated by RNG abuse and Brave weapons, when it clearly isn't.

Edited February 26, 2009 by Sylvan

[Dat Nick]

My 92% critical hit rate is more than enough to win me the game.

........

lawl

First off, enemies have luck. That just sent your crit rate down to 62.

Second off, supports can slash this even further. Say...the Axe Brothers/Ogma? That's another 15% off. You're really going to rely on a 47% chance to kill something instead of a 100% or close chance?

Third, Brave Weapons can be given crit, too. 30% crit twice is actually something I'd depend MORE on.

Especally when most braves I fight end up with a 60% regular hit rate.

...Yeeeeaaaaaahhh. Uh huh. Right. Your guys have about 90 avoid? Sorry, not buying that. You know what else you can forge brave weapons to have? hit

I have won.

Yeah.

Against people dumber than the three stooges, and their teams weren't much better.

dominated by RNG abuse and Brave weapons, when it clearly isn't.

Now you're just making excuses for Wifi's shallowness. Fact is RNG abuse and braves are easily obtained and are by far the best option. People not using them doesn't make it any less gamebreaking.

Edited February 26, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[dondon151]

Anyway,

No, i'm not calming that every RNG abuser that I fight is strategically incompetent. I haven't mentioned strategy at all.

No, but you're very strongly implying it. Given a statistical advantage and strategic parity, the team with better stats (again, ceteris paribus) should always win, and a loss is the result of bad luck or bad strategy.

All I simply stated, was that with my team, which I listed, I have won. And in doing so, this includes numerous matches against hackers who have all maxed stats and fully forged impossible weapons.

Hackers that didn't know how to exploit their statistical strengths, or in other words, strategically incompetent. Comparisons to these chumps are irrelevant.

If I was to fight an RNG abused team that was identical to mine, who had superior stats, then it would be a different matter. But the simple matter is, that over the course of 700+ battles, I have yet to encounter any such team, so I don't see how WiFi is supposedly dominated by RNG abuse and Brave weapons, when it clearly isn't.

BB's metaphor is already good enough, but you're essentially trying to qualify that a low tier team is better than a high tier team with your personal experience. This logic fails in single player FE and it fails in other competitive games.

Now you're just making excuses for Wifi's shallowness. Fact is RNG abuse and braves are easily obtained and are by far the best option. People not using them doesn't make it any less gamebreaking.

Totally true. There's only so many viable options for weapons and classes.

Edited February 26, 2009 by dondon151

[Tamara]

RNG abuse is not needed. Pick the right units and you can get a team with multiple characters with nearly max stats. The only reason to really RNG abuse is to get mag and/or res, which is tedius and not all that helpful.

Brave weapons aren't that great either. In many situations weapons with a greater range and/or crit rate are prefered. A forged hand axe and long bow will get you a long way.

Yes, WiFi is limited, but it isn't the garbage you make it out to be, Sweet Tooth. Go make a team, play some matches, then come back to this discussion. I don't expect you to start liking it, but atleast you won't have to base your arguments on assumptions.

[Dat Nick]

RNG abuse is not needed.

Using Zagaro is not needed.

Aether is not needed.

Ragnell is not needed: It doesn't become locked to Ike until Endgame.

Are you done spouting out crap about how the best, most efficient things are not "needed"?

Pick the right units and you can get a team with multiple characters with nearly max stats.

Pick ANY units and you can get a team with ALL characters with max stats.

The only reason to really RNG abuse is to get mag and/or res

Too bad this doesn't work well, seeing as how growths with 0% tend not to go up.

Brave weapons aren't that great either.

.....

l

m

f

a

o

...No comment. Just...no comment.

In many situations weapons with a greater range and/or crit rate are prefered.

Crit rate which I can give braves?

Crit rate which I can take away with supports?

Go make a team, play some matches, then come back to this discussion.

I reiterate:

I'd sooner castrate myself and feed it to an alligator than play your shitty game.

[Tamara]

-Switch a character to a mage class and you get, OMG!, magic and resistance growths.

-ALL characters with max stats? Have fun getting magic and res!

-You can't reach 90% crit rates with brave weapons

-You can't forge range unto weapons, so other weapons can still have an advantage over the brave weapons

Again, you have no idea what you're talking about. Come back when you have some actual experience. Atleast then you'll know what you're talking about when you try to explain to us why the game sucks.

I'd sooner castrate myself and feed it to an alligator than play your shitty game

I can help you with that.

[Cyrus]

Brave weapons are really easy to counter if you have the umbra card.

just something I noticed.

My current team has only 1 brave weapon (too lazy to wait a month) and I use the umbra card. Works rather well.

[Dat Nick]

Switch a character to a mage class and you get, OMG!, magic and resistance growths.

and why are we giving characters who don't have magic growth magic, again?

they don't have it for a reason

ALL characters with max stats? Have fun getting magic and res!

Mag provides no benefit, res provides little. I excluded them for a reason.

but yes, thank you, I will. If a growth is higher than 0%, that stat can be capped. not like you'd even bother capping mag

-You can't reach 90% crit rates with brave weapons

I never said you could. You can't even reach that with killer, since luck exists

-You can't forge range unto weapons

I never said you could

so other weapons can still have an advantage over the brave weapons

a very minimal one

not countering doesn't saved you from getting raped next turn

Again, you have no idea what you're talking about.

You're the one tossing weak evidence around, have even admitted Wifi being shallower than the kids wading pool, And I'M the one who doesn't know what he's talking about? You basically ignore what you can't prove wrong in my posts and beat around the bush on whatever points you do counter.

I can help you with that.

thanks, but no thanks

Brave weapons are really easy to counter if you have the umbra card.

just one problem with that

umbra fucks you over equally

furthermore, umbra doesn't block out brave's ability to x2, or in general to raep much harder than any other weapon

Edited February 26, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[Cyrus]

furthermore, umbra doesn't block out brave's ability to x2, or in general to raep much harder than any other weapon

"I never said it would"

If fighting a team reliant on brave weapons, you gain an advantage by using the umbra card, if you have range weapons that is.

So it doesn't screw you over equally, by using it, you get an advantage.

Edit:

Also,

a very minimal one

not countering doesn't saved you from getting raped next turn

just to give strength to my arguement. If you use umbra, it does save you from getting raped next turn.

Edited February 26, 2009 by Cyrus

[Tamara]

and why are we giving characters who don't have magic growth magic, again?

they don't have it for a reason

Mag provides no benefit, res provides little. I excluded them for a reason.

If a growth is higher than 0%, that stat can be capped. not like you'd even bother capping mag

Levin sword.

I never said you could. You can't even reach that with killer, since luck exists

You can reacg 80+ crit rates with killer weapons and the right support chain, even when your opponent is lucky.

not countering doesn't saved you from getting raped next turn

Umbra? You can't kill it if you can't see it.

You're the one tossing weak evidence around, have even admitted Wifi being shallower than the kids wading pool, And I'M the one who doesn't know what he's talking about? You basically ignore what you can't prove wrong in my posts and beat around the bush on whatever points you do counter.

Kids wading pools can be tons of fun. Might as well enjoy it until the big pool becomes available.

You don't know that you're wrong, because you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. You're just making assumptions. I bet you refuse to play online, because actually experiencing the online mode could prove you wrong. You don't want to risk knowing that you're wrong, so you prefer to be ignorant.

just one problem with that

umbra fucks you over equally

Uhm, nope? If your team fits the umbra card there is no problem. What can't be seen, can't be killed.

[Dat Nick]

If fighting a team reliant on brave weapons, you gain an advantage by using the umbra card, if you have range weapons that is.

So it doesn't screw you over equally, by using it, you get an advantage.

Cept for the fact that you still need to see the opposition to range them.

And your vision got worse, so you just might wind up running into them. Both sides are equally fucked over.

If you use umbra, it does save you from getting raped next turn.

handaxes/longbows simply don't do crap for damage.

You've left yourself wide open to get raped by braves come next turn.

And no, it doesn't. Ranged units suffer from vision, too. Can't snipe what you can't see.

Levin sword.

Aaaannnddd.....how many people want this, again?

You can reacg 80+ crit rates with killer weapons

Except no.

Because the luck stat automatically kicks that down to at least 60.

weapons and the right support chain

the enemy has supports, too

kind of overlooked that little facet

You're just making assumptions. I bet you refuse to play online, because actually experiencing the online mode could prove you wrong. You don't want to risk knowing that you're wrong, so you prefer to be ignorant.

Hey, who's the one offering amazingly weak evidence on WHY I am wrong, here? Right now you thinking I am wrong is pretty much all the evidence you've offered here. You're the coward here: You claim I'm wrong, but you can't tell me why.

What can't be seen, can't be killed.

exactly

And you just made your opponent harder to see, too. Not everybody is a 3 year old kid who doesn't know how to deal with fog.

[Cyrus]

And no, it doesn't. Ranged units suffer from vision, too. Can't snipe what you can't see.

Scouts. you let a unit run past, and then attack with your ranged unit.

The opponent will see you go past but won't see where you stay, which is way they can't attack you next turn.

[Dat Nick]

And Brave weapons have some sort of innate ability that prevents them from sending out other teammates as scouts?

[Tamara]

You can counter limited vision with scouts. The nice thing about those units is that they have high movement and someone who knows the maps can have a good idea of where the enemy might be. You don't try to bump into them, you try to walk past them and light a "path". You'd be aware of this if you had any experience with WiFi battles. And IIRC the idea of scouting has been explained to you multiple times. Want to prove me and other experienced WiFi players wrong? Make a team!

And Brave weapons have some sort of innate ability that prevents them from sending out other teammates as scouts?

The trick is to make the enemy waste turns scouting. And since brave weapons are generally one-ranged weapons the enemy will reveal themselves when they do find a unit to attack.

handaxes/longbows simply don't do crap for damage.

Both have a max might of 18. Combine it with a swarm or pachyderm shot and it's usually enough to finish the enemy off. It is not wrong to use two or even three units to kill one, as long as you stay out of sight.

Aaaannnddd.....how many people want this, again?

It's a ranged weapon that attacks res and has 16 might max. So yeah, if your swordmaster or horseman has high magic he wants a Levin Sword. The only reason you don't see many Levin swords is because it's hard to get a melee unit with high magic.

Except no.

Because the luck stat automatically kicks that down to at least 60.

No. Highest possible crit rate is in the 90s IIRC (forged Wo Dao + max support chain). Not many units get max luck. Of the units commonly used in online matches Est and Linde probably the only ones who cap luck on their own. 60-70% is still pretty reliable. If you want to counter this type of team you need a dazzle card, not luck.

Hey, who's the one offering amazingly weak evidence on WHY I am wrong, here? Right now you thinking I am wrong is pretty much all the evidence you've offered here. You're the coward here: You claim I'm wrong, but you can't tell me why.

Weak in your eyes, but your eyes are blind when it comes to WiFi play. Yet you consider your online skills superior to those of experienced online players. If you really are that amazing, prove it.

Edited February 26, 2009 by Tamara

[grandjackal]

Isn't there a card that negates all crit that just makes brave weapons outperform anything?

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Dazzle. I always play it because I dislike criticals >_>

[Dat Nick]

You can counter limited vision with scouts.

Oh yes, because the team with braves totally doesn't have any scouts whatsoever on hand. Nope, Braves have an innate ability that prevents any team members being used as scouts. Fucking weird, huh?

You'd be aware of this if you had any experience with WiFi battles.

...I am aware of this? Ranged units still don't magically>unranged units in fog, since, to my knowledge, forged braves do not have some sort of innate ability that block out paladins.

And since brave weapons are generally one-ranged weapons the enemy will reveal themselves when they do find a unit to attack.

And guess what happens when they DO attack? They kill what they attack and they're gone, and now you have to find them all over again. All 1-2 rangers can do is make a little dent in somebody before they get reserve'd back to full health.

Both have a max might of 18. Combine it with a swarm or pachyderm shot and it's usually enough to finish the enemy off.

lol no? Berserkers have the same def as Snipers str, so that's about 18 damage. Pacyderm deals 29 damage. That's not a kill. Not even close, and your Sniper is now curling up in the fetal position as it's about to get raped by a Berserker. Plus, they just got physiced back up to health, so nicely done, you've just wasted a unit.

So yeah, if your swordmaster or horseman has high magic he wants a Levin Sword.

Except he doesn't. He'd rather double attack. Especially if the enemy res abused.

No. Highest possible crit rate is in the 90s IIRC

And highest possible luck rate is 30.

What does 90 minus 30 equal?

Not many units get max luck

Do many units have a growth higher than 0% in luck?

then damn near EVERY unit can get max luck. This only doesn't hold true for prepromotes with low luck values

Of the units commonly used in online matches Est and Linde

why specifically them? They're no better statistically than anybody else. Linde is actually WORSE because she doesn't have def growth. yes yes sages shouldn't even be attacked, but survivng a brave hit>not doing so

Weak in your eyes

No, they ARE weak, period. Saying I'm wrong does not MAKE me wrong, sweetheart, you kind of have to say WHY I'm wrong.

I'm going to impersonate you now: You suck and don't know shit about Wifi. Because I said so.

that just makes brave weapons outperform anything?

they already do

throw 30 crit on braves and you'll see what i mean

Edited February 27, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[Tamara]

Oh yes, because the team with braves totally doesn't have any scouts whatsoever on hand. Nope, Braves have an innate ability that prevents any team members being used as scouts. Fucking weird, huh?

...I am aware of this? Ranged units still don't magically>unranged units in fog, since, to my knowledge, forged braves do not have some sort of innate ability that block out paladins.

And guess what happens when they DO attack? They kill what they attack and they're gone, and now you have to find them all over again.

Units that benefit most from braves are units with 7-8 move (berserkers, swordmasters). That's not ideal for a scout. 10 not only gives you more movement, it also allows for more movement patterns. Scouts need to make a turn here and there to get the hell away from the enemy.

All 1-2 rangers can do is make a little dent in somebody before they get reserve'd back to full health.

lol no? Berserkers have the same def as Snipers str, so that's about 18 damage. Pacyderm deals 29 damage. That's not a kill. Not even close, and your Sniper is now curling up in the fetal position as it's about to get raped by a Berserker. Plus, they just got physiced back up to health, so nicely done, you've just wasted a unit.

Nothing wrong with using a third unit to attack, as long as you stay out of sight. Why do you think double swarming and the like is seen as effective? Braves are useful, but it doesn't make a team unkillable.

BTW unless a berserker has higher than base res, swarm could deal 29-36 damage.

What does 90 minus 30 equal?

Do many units have a growth higher than 0% in luck?

then damn near EVERY unit can get max luck. This only doesn't hold true for prepromotes with low luck values

why specifically them? They're no better statistically than anybody else. Linde is actually WORSE because she doesn't have def growth. yes yes sages shouldn't even be attacked, but survivng a brave hit>not doing so

No, they ARE weak, period.

Just because there is some growth doesn't mean maxing the stat will be easy. The reason why people don't abuse units to the max is because it's tedius, takes way too long and the advantages are minor. 60% crit is still something to fear.

Linde is a good WiFi unit. WiFi sages don't need def, because they shouldn't be on the frontlines. But if you're set on getting her def, you can always class change her to another class. All set one classes leave her with atleast 5% magic growth, which is enough to RNG abuse her effectively according to your theory. It would still take huge amounts of time to get the level-ups you want, though. I'll point out, again, that people don't to that kind of RNG abuse because it takes too long. If you want to make an uber team, go for it, but it's not as if you need it to compete.

Saying I'm wrong does not MAKE me wrong, sweetheart, you kind of have to say WHY I'm wrong. I'm going to impersonate you now: You suck and don't know shit about Wifi. Because I said so.

they already do

Saying I'm wrong also doesn't make me wrong, honey. I and others have explained to you why you're wrong, but you can't seem to get a train out of Lalala-Ican'thearyou-land to listen for a minute.

throw 30 crit on braves and you'll see what i mean

Wouldn't 30 crit be kind of useless in your WiFi universe where every unit has 30 luck ;) You'd better set up a nice support chain with as many berserkers as possible to make that work.

Instead of trying to base a discussion on your speculations and assumptions, why not check the online mode out and see what the difference between theory and practice is. Being right in theory doesn't equal being right in practice and if you can't be right in practice being right is useless.

[Rodykitty]

Wouldn't 30 crit be kind of useless in your WiFi universe where every unit has 30 luck

Forging 30 crit will guarantee a crit rate to exist.

[grandjackal]

Not that it matters, as we can just Dazzle card and suddenly brave weapons go from pretty insane to outperforming every other weapon by a great margin. Swordmasters are mean.

Scouts are also useless because the only good scout that's useful outside of being someone who charges into the enemy is a thief. Lol, thieves. If the enemy has a thief too, you just put yourself at a disadvantage by wasting your card choice on umbra.

A nice way to balance this out would be to make swordmasters weaker in some way (like blast their defense to hell or something, or bring the swordslayer back). But that's just me being obsessive...

In theory, Fire Emblem in this style of play would be a nice idea. It's a nice experiment. Not all experiments are perfect, but it gives a new idea and something new to work with. Working the kinks out of this, I think a good multiplayer aspect could be made from this game. Just need to polish it a bit more is all...

Now I can't stop saying dazzle. Dazzle dazzle dazzle dazzle dazzle

[Rodykitty]

Not that it matters, as we can just Dazzle card and suddenly brave weapons go from pretty insane to outperforming every other weapon by a great margin. Swordmasters are mean.

This argument shouldn't exist because of Dazzle, but critical hit rates are being argued anyway, so I figure I would put in a statement anyway.

[grandjackal]

This argument shouldn't exist because of Dazzle, but critical hit rates are being argued anyway, so I figure I would put in a statement anyway.

Ahh, k then.

Either way, Dazzle Card's a factor. Are there any other cards that have as significant an effect?

[Tamara]

Why use a thief? Last time I checked they didn't have extra vision. Best scout is probably a horseman with boosted movement or a falcoknight, depending on the map.

Forging 30 crit will guarantee a crit rate to exist.

True, but he just said 50%+ crit is nothing special, so why settle for 10%?

In theory, Fire Emblem in this style of play would be a nice idea. It's a nice experiment. Not all experiments are perfect, but it gives a new idea and something new to work with. Working the kinks out of this, I think a good multiplayer aspect could be made from this game. Just need to polish it a bit more is all...

Yep. Online mode is just a fun extra at this point. It isn't perfect, but it could have been a lot worse. I think it's fun. It isn't nearly as unbalanced as I thought it would be and I like playing against other people.

I hope they'll continue improving online play, as long as the offline mode doesn't suffer from it. It would be nice to see more types of maps, not just the defend-the-castle type. Oh and larger teams for some maps. More variety in any case.

Edited February 27, 2009 by Tamara

[grandjackal]

Yep. Online mode is just a fun extra at this point. It isn't perfect, but it could have been a lot worse. I think it's fun. It isn't nearly as unbalanced as I thought it would be and I like playing against other people.

I hope they'll continue improving online play, as long as the offline mode doesn't suffer from it. It would be nice to see more types of maps, not just the defend-the-castle type. Oh and larger teams for some maps. More variety in any case.

In theory as a note. I'm sure it's fun, but it's far from perfect. Swordmasters being nuts with brave swords, Berserkers completely outclassing Warriors, Thieves apparently not having boosted fog of war vision (seriously, they don't? What the hell? Why did they make thieves unable to class change then? There's no point to them anymore...), I heard generals are nuts, and I could imagine plenty of lol warp strategies (warp a thief to a random location you plan to attack, wait for the enemy with a siege, a swarm and paladins, you easily kill one of their guys while you might just end up losing a measily thief, though I'm sure there's a major reason this is a bad idea. Used in fog of war obviously). There's lots of kinks to be polished out.

Balancing would be a very careful thing here, as it would be tough to balance it to go with multiplayer AND the main game (like swordmasters are meh main game and incredible on wifi). Like they couldn't make swordmasters weaker, but instead give them a counter. Snipers can use the long bow, Warriors should be able to use Swordslayer. Make Armorslayers a bit stronger. Sorcerer's could get Drain