Wi-Fi Cheaters Thread

[Blk Knight]

You are correct Sylvan most of my team (class set 1 Frey, Caeda, Catria, and Merric) spent most of their time as Cavaliers /Paladins because they get the best strength and defense growths.

If you wanted to know about my Merric's defense all you have to do is ask. I turned him into a Cavalier /Paladin before I ever used him. Then I turned down every level up for him that didnt contain DEF, via map save point, then I tried again and again until I got it. By level 18 or so Cavalier he had maxed out DEF (20) as a Cavalier. Then back to Mage / Sage.

[Sylvan]

http://www.feplanet.net/games-11-characters-averages/36

At lvl 20-20 Merric's averages, trained as a Paladin and a Cav for 40 levels, then changed back to a sage at the last level:

HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res

56.2 ±3.2 8.5 ±3.2 4.4 ±0.5 23.7 ±2.6 19.8 ±2.9 20.0 ±3.7 18.0 ±4.3 7.1 ±2.0

His mag averages at 4.4, with a deviation of .5, so at best that's 5 mag. His def is 18.0 + 4.3 so this could max if a normal person was very very lucky.

However, since you've got exceptionally high MAG and max DEF (i can't remember if MAG was max, I could calculate it was about max, since you did 22 damage to my horseman who had less than 15 RES, using swarm)

What you've got is a merric that has stats way above the averages. You've effectively changed every growth rate to 100%, which is basically what hackers do.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Sylvan

[dondon151]

Are you implying that your units themselves conform to those averages? I highly doubt it. That they exceed average stats by reasonable amounts? It depends on your definition of what is reasonable, and by then we're already on a slippery slope.

You know as well as I do that linking RNG abusing to hacking is an utterly ridiculous claim. If the means are what determines legitimacy, RNG abusing is much closer to normal gameplay than it is to hacking (you know, since RNG abusing doesn't involve an outside party). If it's the ends, well then, good luck trying to justify anything, because it's virtually impossible.

"Basically" doing what hackers do is not doing what hackers do. Try again.

Edited March 18, 2009 by dondon151

[Rakath]

Your numbers don't make sense... you'd of needed to do that trick on Merric a lot more than just DEF wise... as you would of needed pretty much every Level up give you Magic, or at least 9 more beyond the average... Merric's Average magic is 17ish without Class swapping him away from a Mage for every level up to 18. His Average by your own words is 10.

His magic to do that damage to Sylvan's units would need to be 29.

Also, if you indeed never leveled him up without a DEF gain... he'd of gotten 20 DEF at LV13, not 18. Even with the class changes following that... you would have needed to selective Level his Magic and Defense after promotion to get a full 20 successfully.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Rakath

[Blk Knight]

Your numbers don't make sense... you'd of needed to do that trick on Merric a lot more than just DEF wise... as you would of needed pretty much every Level up give you Magic, or at least 9 more beyond the average... Merric's Average magic is 17ish without Class swapping him away from a Mage for every level up to 18. His Average by your own words is 10.

His magic to do that damage to Sylvan's units would need to be 29.

Also, if you indeed never leveled him up without a DEF gain... he'd of gotten 20 DEF at LV13, not 18. Even with the class changes following that... you would have needed to selective Level his Magic and Defense after promotion to get a full 20 successfully.

I said by level 18 or so... I just remember that he capped out before he classed changed. You guys it is not that difficult get him and try it yourself. His growth rates as a Cavalier / Paladin are

HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res

80% 15% 0% 55% 35% 45% 35% 5%

as you can see he is capable of getting all ups except magic. Thats 7 in one level up.

Just to let you know this is what he needs to cap out everything. This is the number of level ups needed in each area (promotion is figured in).

HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res

34- 17- 26- 24- 18- 27- 15- 20

Now he has got 38 level ups. Use 15 for DEF that leaves 23 for MAG and you would need 2 spirit dusts to get you the rest of the way. As you know there are 5 spirit dusts in the game.

Now this is my Merris stats. more than capable of achieving (he got all my spirit dusts)

HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res

55- 6- 25- 28- 25- 19- 20- 18

But wait he can and did for me get both DEF and MAG, at the same time.

As a Mage, Sage, Curate, Bishop

MAG 40%30%20%30% DEF 5%5%10%5%

Plain and simple it would be easy, but take alot of time to green him in everything. With the exception of STR that would be very hard to do.

Mine is only greened in SKL, SPD, and DEF.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Blk Knight

[Blk Knight]

Anyway my Merric is not the one to wonder about. My Frey greened STR and DEF before level 10 Paladin. Then class changed to a Sage to build RES. All said and done I gave him 3 stat boosts a seraph robe and 2 Talismans. He is capped in everything except MAG(5) and RES(12).

As a Cav / Pal he got all 6 possible ups for me. Not one time, multiple times probably 4 or 5 times. He seemed the easiest to level up for me. Catria geets better ups but she starts later in the game and is weaker compared to the rest of your team at the time making it harder to level her. You have to protect her too much.

[Rakath]

Again, using your numbers and posts, Merric would have required a stat increase in magic for 20 out of 21 levels to get the stats you posted. Off of a 30% Growth rate (okay, there is a 40% Growth rate for the two levels before promotion, but that 10% difference on two levels is really not enough to chance my average state, if you want me to be exact I can be), which should without number manipulation only be 7 of those 21 level ups on average.

I have no issues with your manipulating the RNG to get better stats, I do have issue if you're doing something else and trying to craft a pretty story around it. As the numbers you post make very little sense with what else you say.

[Blk Knight]

Again, using your numbers and posts, Merric would have required a stat increase in magic for 20 out of 21 levels to get the stats you posted. Off of a 30% Growth rate (okay, there is a 40% Growth rate for the two levels before promotion, but that 10% difference on two levels is really not enough to chance my average state, if you want me to be exact I can be), which should without number manipulation only be 7 of those 21 level ups on average.

I have no issues with your manipulating the RNG to get better stats, I do have issue if you're doing something else and trying to craft a pretty story around it. As the numbers you post make very little sense with what else you say.

11 (MAG) level ups not 20

Not true, Merric starts out with 3 MAG +1 for promotion. Give him 5 spirit dusts and he is up to 14, that leaves only 11 level ups to get magic to reach the 25 MAG that my Merric has. From my earlier post your can see that Merric only needs 15 levels to green DEF. 11(MAG) + 15(DEF) =26 That leaves twelve level ups, he gets 38.

Yes my team is high above the averages, I just used map save points to beat the averages.

I respect your opinion but the average growths are easily manipulated when you reset the game and try again. And when you have a growth rate of 30% 40% (MAG) 35% (DEF) it is easy to reject bad level ups (at map save points). With those rates you would only have to try 3 times to get one. I probably averaged over 20 resets from every map save combined to level all 5 of my team. I have spent over 20 mins at one save point several times trying to get good level ups, and can usually reset 2-3 times a minute.

By looking at these numbers and adding them up you can see how I did it.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Blk Knight

[Rakath]

Ah, I see where my number fault came from, I took Sylvan's less than 15 Res to mean 15 Res. But in reality it could be 11 Res. 25 + 8 - 22 = 11 Res. Which is possible. I thought 25 was your Non-Dusted Magic.

Again, I have no issue with adjusting your growth rates via resetting, that's fine by me. I've done it before (Not FE11, I did it in 10). I just want to make sure the numbers all check out. That's all.

[Blk Knight]

Ah, I see where my number fault came from, I took Sylvan's less than 15 Res to mean 15 Res. But in reality it could be 11 Res. 25 + 8 - 22 = 11 Res. Which is possible. I thought 25 was your Non-Dusted Magic.

Again, I have no issue with adjusting your growth rates via resetting, that's fine by me. I've done it before (Not FE11, I did it in 10). I just want to make sure the numbers all check out. That's all.

Thanks Rakath! They are all legit, as soon as I figure out how I will post some crappy cell phone pictures of Merric leveling up. These will show that even a completely green Merric is possible (except str) but you would have to waste half of the save points in the game on him to get him there, not leaving much for your other four people.

[Robert]

I do not see the big deal of a 20 def merric.

You can still one round him with a brave berserker ect.

[Blk Knight]

Merric level ups

Here is a link to Merric leveling up to level 2 mage over and over.

Just in the pictures there are 16 different ups that contain MAG (got many more that i didnt take pictures of)

Also shows him getting DEF 3 times as a mage. One of them he got both MAG and DEF (along with SKL, SPD, RES) at the same time.

And a good Barst level thrown in, I kept that and the 5 ups Merric got before that.

So there you go 16 MAG ups, 5 spirit dust, 3 MAG when he starts, and 1 for promotion. With that you could have a 30 MAG Merric. Plenty of levels left to be a Cav / Pal and get 15 more DEF.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Blk Knight

[Sylvan]

I do not see the big deal of a 20 def merric.

You can still one round him with a brave berserker ect.

True that, but 99% of hackers can still be 1 round killed (maxed marth is really common, and a really bad unit), people with 99 durability don't get an advantage from it, since you only have 10 turns on attacks. Yet they are still listed here.

I'm not posting here because I think it's unreasonable, or that RNG is considered cheating. It's just that the stats are well above the average. Since I can't differentiate between hacked units and RNG abused units on With Anyone, I'll post anyone I come across who greatly breaches the averages. If I made an exception for 1 I'd have to make an exception for all. So that's why I posted it.

It's like this, one of the matches I came across, they had a tiki with 99/60 HP and over maximum stats (30 speed couldn't dual hit etc) So fighting 1 of their units was like fighting a boss. Yet I won, and it was a fun match. But I still posted them, because their stats were impossible. I know that's an extreme example, but the same kind of logic applies, regardless of the quality of the match, or the effect on the outcome. If a unit is way more powerful than they should be (well, not just 1 several) then I will post them here.

[Klaus]

Players name: Ricky

Team name: Erishenfarst

Spotted by: Narshen

Reason: Had units with maxed out stats at low levels, and had a forged Hauteclere.

[Phoenix Wright]

You know as well as I do that linking RNG abusing to hacking is an utterly ridiculous claim. If the means are what determines legitimacy, RNG abusing is much closer to normal gameplay than it is to hacking (you know, since RNG abusing doesn't involve an outside party). If it's the ends, well then, good luck trying to justify anything, because it's virtually impossible.

"Basically" doing what hackers do is not doing what hackers do. Try again.

No matter what is said about it, RNG abusing is cheating, just like hacking is. There is not a difference between a RNG abuser, and a hacker who doesn't go overboard; besides the amount of time it took. Normal play isn't spending precious time trying to get the perfect level up.

Linking them together is not a ridiculous claim, any normal player with average stats would at the very least have a more difficult time winning against an abuser, or a hacker.

Granted that players can still win, and most hackers are cheap, it is not like the RNG abusers are not at fault for cheating either.

"Basically" doing what hackers do is not doing what hackers do. Try again.

...What? That makes absolutely no sense.

-Someone beats a man or woman up (badly enough), and the person dies at the hospital (or on the way). This is basically killing someone more slowly, or a RNG abuser.

-Someone shoots a man or woman in the head, and the person dies instantly (or almost instantly). This is the hacker.

These examples are extremities, but both are considered murder, no?

[dondon151]

It's like this, one of the matches I came across, they had a tiki with 99/60 HP and over maximum stats (30 speed couldn't dual hit etc) So fighting 1 of their units was like fighting a boss. Yet I won, and it was a fun match. But I still posted them, because their stats were impossible. I know that's an extreme example, but the same kind of logic applies, regardless of the quality of the match, or the effect on the outcome. If a unit is way more powerful than they should be (well, not just 1 several) then I will post them here.

99/60 HP and beyond maximum stats actually is impossible. RNG abusing for stats beyond the averages but within the maximums is possible. There is a difference.

No matter what is said about it, RNG abusing is cheating, just like hacking is. There is not a difference between a RNG abuser, and a hacker who doesn't go overboard; besides the amount of time it took. Normal play isn't spending precious time trying to get the perfect level up.

"Normal play" isn't abnormal amounts of arena abusing for 20/20 units and massive amounts of cash for forged brave weapons. I suppose 99% of wi-fi players are cheaters as well? There is a difference between RNG abusing and hacking within bounds, namely, the means used to achieve the ends. I've said this already. Isn't this what determines who illegitimately hacks and who legitimately abuses game mechanics?

Linking them together is not a ridiculous claim, any normal player with average stats would at the very least have a more difficult time winning against an abuser, or a hacker.

Of course it's a ridiculous claim. I wasted 30 hours getting my maxed out units while some other chump plugged in hexadecimals for the same result. They're obviously not the same!

-Someone beats a man or woman up (badly enough), and the person dies at the hospital (or on the way). This is basically killing someone more slowly, or a RNG abuser.

No, this is killing someone, not "basically" killing someone. Bludgeoning a man to death and shooting a man to death are both illegal, last I checked.

There is a concrete difference between hacking and RNG abusing: namely, the introduction of a third party used to alter game data. There is not a concrete difference between being RNG abused and being slightly less RNG abused. It's easy to call people out on hacking, but it's not easy to call people out on RNG abusing. Do so, and you'll have a crowd clamoring about the extent to which RNG abusing is legitimate, which is impossible to determine.

Edited March 18, 2009 by dondon151

[Rakath]

Beating a person to death could be classified as manslaughter, it isn't as intentful as murder...

But we're comparing a video game to murder... I think we've swayed from the point a little.

RNG tweaking using resetting, clock manips, and whatever else in game without a cheat device can't really be compared to a cheat device. So long as he's using the game and the game code itself without augmenting the game itself to get a result desirable it isn't cheating.

I have no problem with wavedashing in Melee.

I DO draw issue with people that augment Brawl's code so they can wavedash. (slightly more on point example.)

[Phoenix Wright]

"Normal play" isn't abnormal amounts of arena abusing for 20/20 units and massive amounts of cash for forged brave weapons. I suppose 99% of wi-fi players are cheaters as well?

Are you looking for a straight answer? Because it is yes. Arena abusing hacking and RNG abuse are methods of cheating. Arena abuse is not as bad though, so why did you bring it up?

There is a difference between RNG abusing and hacking within bounds, namely, the means used to achieve the ends. I've said this already. Isn't this what determines who illegitimately hacks and who legitimately abuses game mechanics?

They both end up giving a desired result. Max stats. In my opinion, it would be stupid to RNG abuse when you could hack.

Also, notice that I said a hacker who does not go overboard, by that I mean hacking that would give the same results as RNG abuse.

Of course it's a ridiculous claim. I wasted 30 hours getting my maxed out units while some other chump plugged in hexadecimals for the same result. They're obviously not the same!

Yes they are. Like I said before, plugging in hexadecimals in one-hundred times better than RNG abusing.

I will say this again too: a hacker who does not go overboard is nearly the same as a RNG abuser. Obviously hacking 90/60 HP is ridiculous, but that is not my argument.

No, this is killing someone, not "basically" killing someone. Bludgeoning a man to death and shooting a man to death are both illegal, last I checked.

It is basically killing someone.

I did not say beating a man to death, I said near death. There is a difference.

But say the person did not die, suppose he or she lived. The accused criminal is still liable to get life in jail for that type of harshness towards another human being. Thus proves they are "basically" the same.

@Rakath: I know I went to the extreme with murder. I meant to.

To me it is a little funny that we can compare murder to video games.

But my example does make sense, maybe not perfectly, but it does.

Edited March 18, 2009 by FEFL

[Sylvan]

"Normal play" isn't abnormal amounts of arena abusing for 20/20 units and massive amounts of cash for forged brave weapons. I suppose 99% of wi-fi players are cheaters as well? There is a difference between RNG abusing and hacking within bounds, namely, the means used to achieve the ends. I've said this already. Isn't this what determines who illegitimately hacks and who legitimately abuses game mechanics?

Arenas are in the game and provide one 1 possible function. To give you exp and money. That is their only possible use.

RNG abuse is not a shop in a mission. It involves you having to physically re-set the game and use the fact that the hardware of the console is too dumb to know when it is turned off. Basically, you re-set the RAM of the game every time you RNG abuse a level. This is exactly the same as a hacker, who modifies the RAM of a game by force. RNG abuse cannot be programmed around, just like how hacking cannot be programmed around. Arena abuse can be programmed around, because it was the programmers who put arenas into the game in the first place.

The RNG abuse method is identical to the methodology used by hackers, which is totally and significantly different to an arena. Saying you shouldn't use an arena is like saying you should never use a shop. Because it's just that, a shop. It's been programmed into the game. What else was programmed into the game? Average stats. Growth rates.

By RNG abusing, you ignore these growth rates, and effectively set them to 100% each, even stats with a 0% growth can be "set" to 100% given enough tries of RNG abuse. Now, how is this any different, at all, to a hacker, who just goes into a game and makes their units have 100% stats? It's not different, because it's the same thing. The only thing that differs is the method used, the outcome is the same.

RNG abuse is not a "game mechanic". It was in FE 6/7/8 where RNG was seeded from the character's movement, so moving in a certain way would result in a certain growth. THAT is abusing a game mechanic. The RNG in FE SD is much closer to a true random number generator, so the player cannot force it to produce a set outcome, all they can do is throw away all the bad outcomes. Which is not abusing a game mechanic, it abusing the hardware, which is exactly what hackers do.

I may be repeating myself here, but anyway. RNG abuse is clearing the RAM to wipe out all bad levels, and only saving good one, doing this over and over to get only the good levels. This is identical to hackers, who go in with a code, and write over the bad levels with good ones. The only difference is the fact that hackers have a much faster and more efficient way of doing this.

I have no problem with wavedashing in Melee.

Wavedashing didn't involve re-setting the game. Also, the programmers put it in deliberately. If anything, wavedashing in melee is more analogous of arena abuse, which is a programmed game function, that players can choose to use. RNG abuse is like playing with all items on and re-setting the match until you get a star man, and using that to win. Hacking would be simply setting star men to 100%.

[Phoenix Wright]

Arenas are in the game and provide one 1 possible function. To give you exp and money. That is their only possible use.

RNG abuse is not a shop in a mission. It involves you having to physically re-set the game and use the fact that the hardware of the console is too dumb to know when it is turned off. Basically, you re-set the RAM of the game every time you RNG abuse a level. This is exactly the same as a hacker, who modifies the RAM of a game by force. RNG abuse cannot be programmed around, just like how hacking cannot be programmed around. Arena abuse can be programmed around, because it was the programmers who put arenas into the game in the first place.

The RNG abuse method is identical to the methodology used by hackers, which is totally and significantly different to an arena. Saying you shouldn't use an arena is like saying you should never use a shop. Because it's just that, a shop. It's been programmed into the game. What else was programmed into the game? Average stats. Growth rates.

By RNG abusing, you ignore these growth rates, and effectively set them to 100% each, even stats with a 0% growth can be "set" to 100% given enough tries of RNG abuse. Now, how is this any different, at all, to a hacker, who just goes into a game and makes their units have 100% stats? It's not different, because it's the same thing. The only thing that differs is the method used, the outcome is the same.

RNG abuse is not a "game mechanic". It was in FE 6/7/8 where RNG was seeded from the character's movement, so moving in a certain way would result in a certain growth. THAT is abusing a game mechanic. The RNG in FE SD is much closer to a true random number generator, so the player cannot force it to produce a set outcome, all they can do is throw away all the bad outcomes. Which is not abusing a game mechanic, it abusing the hardware, which is exactly what hackers do.

I may be repeating myself here, but anyway. RNG abuse is clearing the RAM to wipe out all bad levels, and only saving good one, doing this over and over to get only the good levels. This is identical to hackers, who go in with a code, and write over the bad levels with good ones. The only difference is the fact that hackers have a much faster and more efficient way of doing this.

Wavedashing didn't involve re-setting the game. Also, the programmers put it in deliberately. If anything, wavedashing in melee is more analogous of arena abuse, which is a programmed game function, that players can choose to use. RNG abuse is like playing with all items on and re-setting the match until you get a star man, and using that to win. Hacking would be simply setting star men to 100%.

Thanks for making it clearer. :D

[Rakath]

What are you talking about, a murderer with no previous record is only likely to get 10 years.

To say 'they get life for NEARLY killing someone' is a bit of a leap when you can get 10 years FOR killing someone.

But I should stop commenting on this hilariously overblown metaphor of choice.

Edit: I suppose neither of you reset when a unit you needed died?

And no, Wavedashing was an unintended side-effect of the physics engine. It's along the same line to wasting numbers in FE6-8 than it is to an Arena. YOU ARE ABUSING THE GAME'S ENGINE TO YOUR OWN ENDS. The intent of momentum air dodges was to... dodge attacks in the air and extend recovery ranges. It was not to apply an extended forward range by airdodging into the ground before you leave the ground allowing you to charge and execute Smash attacks and other offensive attacks while in motion.

And you don't need to hack to put Star-Men at 100% either.

Edited March 19, 2009 by Rakath

[Phoenix Wright]

What are you talking about, a murderer with no previous record is only likely to get 10 years.

To say 'they get life for NEARLY killing someone' is a bit of a leap when you can get 10 years FOR killing someone.

But I should stop commenting on this hilariously overblown metaphor of choice.

Edit: I suppose neither of you reset when a unit you needed died?

Wait, that isn't true!

Murder is covered by state laws, not central laws. Therefore you are very incorrect.

Also, there is a difference between 1st degree murder, 2nd degree murder, et cetra.

In some states, you get life in jail with no parole for 1st degree murders. It varies.

Edited March 19, 2009 by FEFL

[Robert]

Although RNG abusing far beyond puts you at at unfair advantage, it is capable without any hack, external device, AR, ect.

[dondon151]

Arenas are in the game and provide one 1 possible function. To give you exp and money. That is their only possible use.

RNG abuse is not a shop in a mission. It involves you having to physically re-set the game and use the fact that the hardware of the console is too dumb to know when it is turned off. Basically, you re-set the RAM of the game every time you RNG abuse a level. This is exactly the same as a hacker, who modifies the RAM of a game by force. RNG abuse cannot be programmed around, just like how hacking cannot be programmed around. Arena abuse can be programmed around, because it was the programmers who put arenas into the game in the first place.

A shop or an arena present in a mission does not mean a player is obligated to use that shop or arena. RNG abuse existing does not mean a player is obligated to use it. Both are available for the player's advantage. Shops and arenas are features of the game; turning the system off is a feature of the NDS.

Resetting the game's RAM is different from hacking the game's RAM. The player has no control over the RAM in the former case and full control over the RAM in the latter case. This is not "exactly the same;" this is not even remotely the same. If I asked you to roll a die and then to select a number between 1 and 6, are these two processes the same?

I don't quite understand this "programmed around" stuff you're talking about, but there is no way for the game to stop a player from choosing to arena abusing, which renders the point null anyway. I'll point out again that turning off the system is programmed into the NDS and the RNG is programmed into the game.

The RNG abuse method is identical to the methodology used by hackers, which is totally and significantly different to an arena. Saying you shouldn't use an arena is like saying you should never use a shop. Because it's just that, a shop. It's been programmed into the game. What else was programmed into the game? Average stats. Growth rates.

Wasting hours upon hours hoping to get lucky with the RNG is identical to spending minutes plugging in a cheat device and switching hexadecimals in the memory? OK.

By RNG abusing, you ignore these growth rates, and effectively set them to 100% each, even stats with a 0% growth can be "set" to 100% given enough tries of RNG abuse. Now, how is this any different, at all, to a hacker, who just goes into a game and makes their units have 100% stats? It's not different, because it's the same thing. The only thing that differs is the method used, the outcome is the same.

First, 0% growths are still 0% when RNG abusing and have no chance of increasing on a level up. Second, RNG abusing does not guarantee that all stats will increase after any finite number of tries - this means that growth rates aren't effectively 100% and the player still doesn't have full control over what the character gets. Third, the means is what differentiates between what is legit and what is illegit in a game - hacking is strictly forbidden because it creates an unfair advantage with the use of some third party, not because it creates an unfair advantage.

RNG abuse is not a "game mechanic". It was in FE 6/7/8 where RNG was seeded from the character's movement, so moving in a certain way would result in a certain growth. THAT is abusing a game mechanic. The RNG in FE SD is much closer to a true random number generator, so the player cannot force it to produce a set outcome, all they can do is throw away all the bad outcomes. Which is not abusing a game mechanic, it abusing the hardware, which is exactly what hackers do.

Great! Considering FEDS abusers have even less control over what their level ups will be, this makes the process even more legit!

I may be repeating myself here, but anyway. RNG abuse is clearing the RAM to wipe out all bad levels, and only saving good one, doing this over and over to get only the good levels. This is identical to hackers, who go in with a code, and write over the bad levels with good ones. The only difference is the fact that hackers have a much faster and more efficient way of doing this.

I may be repeating myself here, but anyway. These are not identical, sorry.

Wavedashing didn't involve re-setting the game. Also, the programmers put it in deliberately. If anything, wavedashing in melee is more analogous of arena abuse, which is a programmed game function, that players can choose to use. RNG abuse is like playing with all items on and re-setting the match until you get a star man, and using that to win. Hacking would be simply setting star men to 100%.

Resetting the game has nothing to do with this. If an exploit involves resetting the game, it is just as legit as an exploit that doesn't involve resetting the game (I think you only created this dichotomy because otherwise there would be no argument). Your starman analogy isn't quite accurate either, because you're comparing a single player scenario, which can be interrupted at any time with no consequence, to a competitive scenario, where the match itself is actually important and cannot be interrupted.

There is no evidence that suggests that the programmers of SSBM incorporated the exploit of wavedashing while being fully or even somewhat aware of the ramifications that it would have on the metagame.

To the topic creator: this is your decision, but please realize that to report a player as a cheater/hacker based solely on the reason of having legitimate, attainable stats creates a dangerous precendent that stands to neutralize the player's efforts solely because a few members have arbitrarily decided to label it unfair.

[Sylvan]

Players name:Dr. Awesome

Team name: BLEHHH!!

Spotted by: Sylvan

Reason: they moved several times a turn, and attacked with aura from more than 2 spaces away.

EDIT: @ above. There IS evidence that wavedashing was deliberately put into melee. Else I would not have written it. Sakurai mentioned in an interview, that testers noticed wavedashing in melee, but they decided to keep it in because it made the game more interesting.

If I asked you to roll a die and then to select a number between 1 and 6, are these two processes the same?

If I asked you to roll a die, and throw away everything but a 6, would it matter? RNG abuse means, sure you roll a dice, but you don't use any of the bad rolls. You may as well have just picked a number in the first place. The outcome is the same. So my analogy holds, and your reply does not rebut the point I made.

First, 0% growths are still 0% when RNG abusing and have no chance of increasing on a level up.

This is also incorrect. It is possible to get stats with a 0% growth. There have been several topic about this on the forums already.

Edited March 19, 2009 by Sylvan