The Ultimate Melee vs Brawl Topic

[Loki Laufeyson]

(if this has been done before, lock accordingly)

Well i popped in Melee for the first time in a dogs age and i immediately noticed something..

Melee is a much faster moving game and has better moves..Sure Brawl has characters like Wario and Metaknight and cool stages but is it as competative and fun? hmmm...

your thoughts?

[Krevin]

It's a widely accepted fact that Melee is more competitive, since hitstun exists, which makes for combos, the overall game speed is much faster, and high-level play is based on difficult techs, whereas Brawl is just LOL CHAINGRAB, K NOW I'M PICKING METAKNIGHT DSMASH DSMASH DSMASH WHORENADO LOL, and the higher-tier characters are also the easier to play as (Snake is a bit of an exception, he takes some practice but he's not as hard as, oh... say... Melee Falco?). Also, low-tier characters are funner to play as in Melee IMO. Yoshi dittos are just funny, since it consists almost entirely of hitting eachother out of DJC's for low damage kills, or not DJCing which nulls Yoshi's offense, and he can't play defensively worth crap.

Wavedashing, Dash dancing, Double Jump Cancelling, L-Cancelling, and Pichu are all so much better than anything Brawl has to offer.

That being said, my stance is still 64 > All.

[Cyrus]

Brawl has more music, funnier stages (less neutrals, but whatever), much more 1 p content and a lot of other fun extra options such as replay, screenshot data and stage builder.

The gameplay itself is different in many ways. Melee has much more hitstun, overall faster falling speed, a different airdodge that completely changes the game (wavedashing comes to mind, doing a smash out of a quick dash is really important).

Brawl lost a lot of its hitstun, it still has some though, but for some reason that didn't prevent more chaingrabs coming in.

Losing hitstun does mean momentum cancelling plays a big part, so you're not totally helpless after being hit by a strong attack, bar being able to DI (which makes less of a difference than momentum cancelling).

Brawl is overall less balanced, because there are much more match-ups that are completely hopeless than in Melee (thanks, Dedede). Metaknight having a powerful down-smash that comes out on frame 5 also doesn't help.

Melee probably takes a lot of more skill to play competitively, due to it being more quick-paced, combo's being more reliant on reading opponent's DI, and not auto-grabbing the ledges while going past them with a recovery move. (just my opinion, I think the latter was better left out anyway).

Both are good games competitively, melee probably wins that slightly.

Brawl has much more content, and wins that by far. Too bad for easily laggy online.

I agree with the above poster that (in gameplay anyway) the N64 version is better than both.

Everything in my post not based on facts is mostly opinion, feel free to argue.

Oh ya, in response to this:

(Snake is a bit of an exception, he takes some practice but he's not as hard as, oh... say... Melee Falco?).

Snake is certainly one of the more easier characters to learn. Using grenades properly is nothing to practice. If you know how it works, you can do it.

Doing sliding up smashes with Snake is really easy, after a week of practice you should be able to pull it of 90% of the time. This is much harder with a character like Sheik (or is it just me? It only works like 50% of the time for me with Sheik. Timing is ridiculous)

Jab cancelling is also barely something to practice.

Down-throw tech chasing is based on predicting by earlier movements what your opponent will be going to do.

I think Snake is really easy to learn to use.

The harder ones (imo) are Diddy Kong, Metaknight (yes, I'm serieus. Metaknight is the best character if learned to use properly, but doing so is very hard, because Metaknight being the most used character too means a lot of people have experience fighting him.), Ice Climbers (timing for the infinites is insane!!!), and Lucas (Properly recovering with him can be a pain (not talking about PKT, but about the thing that makes your double jump higher when using it simultanously with PKfire, or the thing that sends you horizontally if you use PSI Magnet after PKfire. You need to learn to use PKT from below the stage because it's easily gimped. And meteor smashing with his back air is kinda hard, you need to have used this a few times before you can use this most of the time against a (smart) player).

Woops, went a bit off-topic there. Feel free to argue anyway.

Edited February 28, 2009 by Cyrus

[dondon151]

Everything that's to be said about this topic has already been said.

[Rehab]

oh noooooooooo

make it stopopopopopopahhhhhhhhhhhp

There is seriously nothing but nonsense to be found in this particular topic. Melee and Brawl are way too different when you explore what the games really have to offer to find anything meaningful to say in a straight up quality comparison.

@Krevin 64 is wack, I scarcely play it and can do usmash -> lol with Falcon with barely any investment required, and can do such with other dumb characters as well, which is dumb (not saying OH I AM AN HONOURABLE MAN AND WOULD NEVER USE SUCH TACTICS TO WIN A GAME OF SMASH BROTHERS but that it's dumb that that's what the game boils down to), and grabs are borderline unpunishable and stupid. And while there's nothing wrong with a game requiring technical investment, that doesn't mean that more technical barriers = automatically more better. Also low tier is never fun, especially not in smash, and super especially not in melee. Neither is Pichu and anybody who says otherwise is a crazy man.

@Cyrus: MK difficult? ur weird

Edited February 28, 2009 by Mac

[Krevin]

Cyrus, I didn't actually read your post, but in skimming through it I decided it looked quite ignorant (you said Snake was one of the easier characters... I started doing well the first time I tried MK, Snake took me at least a week to get decent as, and I know I'm not the only one).

@Krevin 64 is wack, I scarcely play it and can do usmash -> lol with Falcon with barely any investment required, and can do such with other dumb characters as well, which is dumb (not saying OH I AM AN HONOURABLE MAN AND WOULD NEVER USE SUCH TACTICS TO WIN A GAME OF SMASH BROTHERS but that it's dumb that that's what the game boils down to), and grabs are borderline unpunishable and stupid. And while there's nothing wrong with a game requiring technical investment, that doesn't mean that more technical barriers = automatically more better. Also low tier is never fun, especially not in smash, and super especially not in melee. Neither is Pichu and anybody who says otherwise is a crazy man.

Pichu isn't low tier, nigga you ignant! He's toppest tier!

Seriously though, playing characters like Pichu and Yoshi require you to play at the top of your game even in easier matches, which is why I prefer low tier to high tier. Sure I'll be picking Sheik or Marth if I'm against somebody who is better than me in a tourney, but in friendlies I try to stick to low-tiers just because I feel like I become a better smasher overall when I train as shitty characters.

As for 64, I kinda like the fact that almost every attack can be turned into a 0-Death combo, and I definitely prefer the 64 controller to the Gamecube controller or any of the Wii controllers.

[Doom103]

Melee take more skill Brawl is better for causal play and if you have no friends (ie 1p content and a crappy online system)

end of story

Only reason I like Brawl better is because I'm better at so I win more nothing more, though I do acknowledge that melee is the better game

[Cyrus]

I should really try to make posts more brief.

64 really is good. You gave us an example of Falcon being able to do crazy stuff out of an upsmash, but every character has one or two awesome gimmicks that set them apart from the rest, and IMO the balance between characters is much better than in the other two installments.

Shielding is punished greatly because of the huge amount of shieldstun and shieldgrabbing is not overpowered.

The Mario/Luigi thing is dissapointing, but other than those two the characters aren't too similar.

Lag cancelling is an awesome thing too, it puts casuals apart from people who have more experience.

I'll stop here.

Actually, no

Cyrus, I didn't actually read your post, but in skimming through it I decided it looked quite ignorant

We should do some brawls once if you have Wi-fi

Edit: not that wi-fi gives an accurate picture of someone's skill.

Edited March 1, 2009 by Cyrus

[dondon151]

Seriously though, playing characters like Pichu and Yoshi require you to play at the top of your game even in easier matches, which is why I prefer low tier to high tier. Sure I'll be picking Sheik or Marth if I'm against somebody who is better than me in a tourney, but in friendlies I try to stick to low-tiers just because I feel like I become a better smasher overall when I train as shitty characters.

I'm a Ness main and I don't get better at all, ever.

[Krevin]

I'm a Ness main and I don't get better at all, ever.

I was referring to PLAYING low tier, not maining low tier. Of course you're not gonna learn as much if you're playing as your main, but I think it's good to pick up random low-tier characters for a week or two and then drop them when you get too comfortable with them.

[Knife]

I should really try to make posts more brief.

64 really is good. You gave us an example of Falcon being able to do crazy stuff out of an upsmash, but every character has one or two awesome gimmicks that set them apart from the rest, and IMO the balance between characters is much better than in the other two installments.

Shielding is punished greatly because of the huge amount of shieldstun and shieldgrabbing is not overpowered.

The Mario/Luigi thing is dissapointing, but other than those two the characters aren't too similar.

Lag cancelling is an awesome thing too, it puts casuals apart from people who have more experience.

I'll stop here.

Actually, no

We should do some brawls once if you have Wi-fi

Edit: not that wi-fi gives an accurate picture of someone's skill.

It kinda does.

[dondon151]

I was referring to PLAYING low tier, not maining low tier.

Maining a low tier is playing a low tier...

[Krevin]

It kinda does.

Not really. Lag will throw off timing. Some players can deal with lag better than others, and some characters get raped hard from lag, while some characters can even benefit from it. For example, I was playing 2bTop on WiFi today, and IRL if I play Snake against his Falco I can hold my own, with about a 50:50 chance of winning, but on WiFi he 3-stocked me with just, like, 40 damage on him, and I know I could have at least taken a stock from him without lag, even if we were on a shitty stage (Lylat) and I wasn't at the top of my game. Then he started picking IC's and the only reason I didn't get 3-stocked every time was because the lag kept him from efficiently chaingrabbing me. Also, on a side note, if any of you get a chance to play 2bTop IRL, look out for his IC's.

[Metal Rabbit]

I'm comfortable with 64 and Brawl, but not melee anymore.

I prefer brawl simply because it's the game I learned to be good at. 64 is simply fun.

[Rehab]

All it takes is playing more of it and trying to learn stuff to enjoy it, and it's on the same level of difficulty as most fighting games if you just play with, say, me.

Doc and Jigglypuff are reasonably simple and good if you focus on them, you can do iiit

[Rei]

Yet no one has yet mentioned tripping yet... The person who thought of tripping, and the people who LET it go through should be fired from their job.

Melee is more fun. I like 64, but not as much as melee. The shieldstun is so high that people can just keep poking it until it's gone. I don't mind not being able to shieldgrab, but still. Melee has quite a lot of things you need to think of all at once. They all do, but in my opinion, more-so melee. Due to the dash dancing, wavedashing, as well as a ton of other things, there are so many options that a player has. In brawl, it's really all about spacing and getting in random hits. Metaknight can punish and follow everything up, and he's really the only character that can do that easily. Snake is REALLY easy to use, though he gets raped by Dedede and Falco. All you need to know is techchasing, jab-f-tilt locks, mortar sliding, and grenade tricks. Add in a few tricks like having his forward-B follow him on the way down so people don't try to punish his recovery (a nice trick Ally uses). I don't really play SSB64, but it is pretty fun. IMO Melee > 64 >>> Brawl. For the tiny amount of time that I've played 64, I've enjoyed it more than brawl.

[Krevin]

Yet no one has yet mentioned tripping yet... The person who thought of tripping, and the people who LET it go through should be fired from their job.

That's because MetaKnight uses Whorenado to move, and no other character exists in Brawl, so it's not a problem :P

Melee is more fun. I like 64, but not as much as melee. The shieldstun is so high that people can just keep poking it until it's gone. I don't mind not being able to shieldgrab, but still. Melee has quite a lot of things you need to think of all at once. They all do, but in my opinion, more-so melee. Due to the dash dancing, wavedashing, as well as a ton of other things, there are so many options that a player has. In brawl, it's really all about spacing and getting in random hits. Metaknight can punish and follow everything up, and he's really the only character that can do that easily. Snake is REALLY easy to use, though he gets raped by Dedede and Falco. All you need to know is techchasing, jab-f-tilt locks, mortar sliding, and grenade tricks. Add in a few tricks like having his forward-B follow him on the way down so people don't try to punish his recovery (a nice trick Ally uses). I don't really play SSB64, but it is pretty fun. IMO Melee > 64 >>> Brawl. For the tiny amount of time that I've played 64, I've enjoyed it more than brawl.

64's only real flaw was how small of a game it was. There's only 12 characters, and only 5 (6 if you count Sector Z) tourney-legal stages. The lack of aerial dodging means you're gonna rely more on groundgame, so dash dancing, pivot dashing, and grabbing are your staples until you catch your opponent in a combo.

[Cyrus]

Yet no one has yet mentioned tripping yet... The person who thought of tripping, and the people who LET it go through should be fired from their job.

I don't know. They probably put it in because dashing was overpowered and walking was nearly obsolete, except you can do all ground attacks out of a walk and not out of a dash, but in melee you could do it anyway because you were able to cancel your dash with a crouch.

I don't really mind it, you just have to be more careful with dashing, it has saved me more times than it killed me.

That's because MetaKnight uses Whorenado to move, and no other character exists in Brawl, so it's not a problem

old joke :(

(btw tripping means bananas, bananas mean diddy kong, diddy kong means metaknight's worst matchup.)

[Rehab]

I always thought that was Snake

[Knife]

Not really. Lag will throw off timing. Some players can deal with lag better than others, and some characters get raped hard from lag, while some characters can even benefit from it. For example, I was playing 2bTop on WiFi today, and IRL if I play Snake against his Falco I can hold my own, with about a 50:50 chance of winning, but on WiFi he 3-stocked me with just, like, 40 damage on him, and I know I could have at least taken a stock from him without lag, even if we were on a shitty stage (Lylat) and I wasn't at the top of my game. Then he started picking IC's and the only reason I didn't get 3-stocked every time was because the lag kept him from efficiently chaingrabbing me. Also, on a side note, if any of you get a chance to play 2bTop IRL, look out for his IC's.

I rarely get lag myself, so it feels the same as IRL, but I agree with your points about lag making things unfair.

[Krevin]

I don't know. They probably put it in because dashing was overpowered and walking was nearly obsolete, except you can do all ground attacks out of a walk and not out of a dash, but in melee you could do it anyway because you were able to cancel your dash with a crouch.

I don't really mind it, you just have to be more careful with dashing, it has saved me more times than it killed me.

old joke :(

(btw tripping means bananas, bananas mean diddy kong, diddy kong means metaknight's worst matchup.)

I always thought that was Snake

I thought Falco was considered MetaKnight's worst matchup right now.

Also, there are no official match-up ratios yet. The MetaKnight boards on SmashBoards say that Meta vs Yoshi is a 60:40 match-up in Meta's favor, whereas the Yoshi boards say that it's either 50:50 or 55:45 in Meta's favor.

I rarely get lag myself, so it feels the same as IRL, but I agree with your points about lag making things unfair.

I have a fucking beastly connection, but most people get a decent amount of lagfrom their connection, so you're almost guaranteed to have a laggy battle on WiFi.

[Doom103]

I'm playing Melee again and there is no way Brawl is better, Brawl is slow, unappealing to watch, and broken. Not to mention some mechanics are ridiculous. There is no contest

[Rei]

No Snake is still the best matchup against MK. No doubt. Only person to beat M2K so far in a HUGE tourney is Ally, the best snake. And everyone agrees, snake is the best counterpick against MK. You can't even argue against the results of what happened at APEX.

Edited June 10, 2009 by Reimi Saionji